| Is the lock down ending too soon? 04:59 - Jul 1 with 140307 views | Glyn1 |
That's basically it.
Thoughts please. [Post edited 1 Jul 2020 5:00]
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| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 10:49 - Sep 17 with 1526 views | Andy1300 |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 09:07 - Sep 17 by exhmrc1 |
Not just young adults. Also people bringing it back from abroad. That is where many have come from and also people going on trips to Doncaster races probably older people. |
So the infection rate is less in other countries than here in the U.K., it makes no sense to isolate after coming back from a country that’s not as bad as here.
More likely to take it there than bring it home. |  |
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| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 10:50 - Sep 17 with 1523 views | exhmrc1 |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 10:08 - Sep 17 by Scotia |
We've been here before. There is a lower rate in many parts of Europe than the UK - I said at the time this could easily be caused by a sports tour in the UK as it is pretty clear that the virus "brought back" from abroad was contracted from a fellow brit.
We can't prevent travel in the UK long term.
I've got a couple of questions.
What enforcement has been taken against the coach company, assuming the club weren't socially distanced and not wearing masks?
What enforcement has been taken against the rugby club?
How many pubs in RCT have been shut for not getting customers to socially distance?
Other than that WG seem to be doing ok at managing local lockdowns, although why they haven't taken a harder line on pubs is beyond me. |
You cannot blame the coach company. It was organised by somebody within a club and called at pubs on the way. Whoever it was contracted from the fact remains they were infected whilst abroad and brought it back with them then it spread from there. If these people hadnt gone abroad they wouldnt have brought it back and we wouldnt now be having these problems in RCT and Caerphilly and elsewhere.
You were the one who criticised the Welsh government for not opening pubs. They have done so and the results are there for all to see. People sitting on he same table and queing outside pubs on St Mary's Street was always going to happen. I foresaw that. You didnt and we are having problems because the 2 things you wanted have caused it. More than 30 people in Wales alone came back infected from Zante which we were told was safe and was one of the Air bridges you supported and that doesnt include other places like Crete.
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/full-list-pubs-restaurants-shut-18 |  | | |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 10:50 - Sep 17 with 1523 views | Professor |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 10:08 - Sep 17 by Scotia |
We've been here before. There is a lower rate in many parts of Europe than the UK - I said at the time this could easily be caused by a sports tour in the UK as it is pretty clear that the virus "brought back" from abroad was contracted from a fellow brit.
We can't prevent travel in the UK long term.
I've got a couple of questions.
What enforcement has been taken against the coach company, assuming the club weren't socially distanced and not wearing masks?
What enforcement has been taken against the rugby club?
How many pubs in RCT have been shut for not getting customers to socially distance?
Other than that WG seem to be doing ok at managing local lockdowns, although why they haven't taken a harder line on pubs is beyond me. |
Not aware of any closures, but several enforcement notices have been made according to family there.
The Abercynon trip to Doncaster was absolute idiocy given the number of pub stops.
The only advantage of any controls of travel in Europe is potentially stopping risky behaviours relating to bars and clubs. The virus is prevalent enough in the UK to make this an almost complete non-issue when levels in Bolton are many times greater than that which triggers the closure of air bridges.
People are now behaving as SAGE expected them to in March, where compliance was much better than expected and lockdown (albeit 10 days too late) was eventually successful. | | | |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 11:17 - Sep 17 with 1507 views | Scotia |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 10:50 - Sep 17 by exhmrc1 |
You cannot blame the coach company. It was organised by somebody within a club and called at pubs on the way. Whoever it was contracted from the fact remains they were infected whilst abroad and brought it back with them then it spread from there. If these people hadnt gone abroad they wouldnt have brought it back and we wouldnt now be having these problems in RCT and Caerphilly and elsewhere.
You were the one who criticised the Welsh government for not opening pubs. They have done so and the results are there for all to see. People sitting on he same table and queing outside pubs on St Mary's Street was always going to happen. I foresaw that. You didnt and we are having problems because the 2 things you wanted have caused it. More than 30 people in Wales alone came back infected from Zante which we were told was safe and was one of the Air bridges you supported and that doesnt include other places like Crete.
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/full-list-pubs-restaurants-shut-18 |
Do you think all pubs should still be shut? If so for how long?
Do you think it was wise for them to open without any guidance from WG? Do you think that had anythinig to do with the problems you foresaw?
I didn't see the point in having a different lockdown scenario to England and I still don't. Are we in a better position than them now despite closing our business for an extra month?
Of course it is the fault of the coach company as much as the organisers. They should be heavily fined. They leased the coach and staff to the club and agreed the route. They should have had a covid risk asssessment in place, they either didn't or diden't ensure it was followed.
We would still be having these problems, the abroad outbreaks are small in comparison. What's to say the group who went to Zante wouldn't have gone to Manchester instead where the was a higher rate than their actual destination. There is enough of the virus here to make travel to areas of similar infection abroad irrelevant. | | | |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 12:31 - Sep 17 with 1495 views | exhmrc1 |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 11:17 - Sep 17 by Scotia |
Do you think all pubs should still be shut? If so for how long?
Do you think it was wise for them to open without any guidance from WG? Do you think that had anythinig to do with the problems you foresaw?
I didn't see the point in having a different lockdown scenario to England and I still don't. Are we in a better position than them now despite closing our business for an extra month?
Of course it is the fault of the coach company as much as the organisers. They should be heavily fined. They leased the coach and staff to the club and agreed the route. They should have had a covid risk asssessment in place, they either didn't or diden't ensure it was followed.
We would still be having these problems, the abroad outbreaks are small in comparison. What's to say the group who went to Zante wouldn't have gone to Manchester instead where the was a higher rate than their actual destination. There is enough of the virus here to make travel to areas of similar infection abroad irrelevant. |
Wales has increased from a low of 8 to 199. The UK has increased from 382 to 3991. France and Spain have also massively increased. This is what has happened when your policies have been followed letting people go abroad and bringing cases back and then it spreads. No good criticising Drakeford over pubs. England sent out instructions there. Has it helped. Has it changed anything. Your bright idea of opening everything has proven a disaster. The facts prove it and places that followed your idea have seen huge spikes. 10 times in England. More in Wales although largely RCT and Caerphilly.
The only places it hasnt spread have been places who kept their borders closed.
We are in a position where places have tried to do what you suggested and it has failed. Time for you to wake up and realise that these [policies are the reason for the spread.
I wouldnt have opened pubs until the virus was got rid of. I wouldnt have followed the senseless policies re air travel. The fact is the policies being persued were working. They suppressed the virus and an average of 15 is much better than 160 or so over the last week and going up.
When you have the figures down to 15 you are close to defeating it. Since Drakeford has followed your suggestion things have got far worse.
You go on about keeping things open for business. How did they manage during the war years.
We have 2 choices. Following your failed system where the cases have increased 10 fold which you have previously suggested is how to control the virus or the policy originally adopted by Drakeford and which I believe in which reduced the new cases from 391 in a day to 8. There is no in between system.
Health Minister Edward Argar has been accused of blaming pubgoers for a spike in Covid-19 cases, just months after the Government urged Britons to support their local.
Prime Minister Boris Johnson encouraged Britons to return to pubs after lockdown restrictions were eased in July.
[Post edited 17 Sep 2020 12:39]
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| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 13:28 - Sep 17 with 1479 views | Andy1300 |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 12:31 - Sep 17 by exhmrc1 |
Wales has increased from a low of 8 to 199. The UK has increased from 382 to 3991. France and Spain have also massively increased. This is what has happened when your policies have been followed letting people go abroad and bringing cases back and then it spreads. No good criticising Drakeford over pubs. England sent out instructions there. Has it helped. Has it changed anything. Your bright idea of opening everything has proven a disaster. The facts prove it and places that followed your idea have seen huge spikes. 10 times in England. More in Wales although largely RCT and Caerphilly.
The only places it hasnt spread have been places who kept their borders closed.
We are in a position where places have tried to do what you suggested and it has failed. Time for you to wake up and realise that these [policies are the reason for the spread.
I wouldnt have opened pubs until the virus was got rid of. I wouldnt have followed the senseless policies re air travel. The fact is the policies being persued were working. They suppressed the virus and an average of 15 is much better than 160 or so over the last week and going up.
When you have the figures down to 15 you are close to defeating it. Since Drakeford has followed your suggestion things have got far worse.
You go on about keeping things open for business. How did they manage during the war years.
We have 2 choices. Following your failed system where the cases have increased 10 fold which you have previously suggested is how to control the virus or the policy originally adopted by Drakeford and which I believe in which reduced the new cases from 391 in a day to 8. There is no in between system.
Health Minister Edward Argar has been accused of blaming pubgoers for a spike in Covid-19 cases, just months after the Government urged Britons to support their local.
Prime Minister Boris Johnson encouraged Britons to return to pubs after lockdown restrictions were eased in July.
[Post edited 17 Sep 2020 12:39]
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You would never have opened pubs then | |
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| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 13:39 - Sep 17 with 1470 views | Scotia |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 12:31 - Sep 17 by exhmrc1 |
Wales has increased from a low of 8 to 199. The UK has increased from 382 to 3991. France and Spain have also massively increased. This is what has happened when your policies have been followed letting people go abroad and bringing cases back and then it spreads. No good criticising Drakeford over pubs. England sent out instructions there. Has it helped. Has it changed anything. Your bright idea of opening everything has proven a disaster. The facts prove it and places that followed your idea have seen huge spikes. 10 times in England. More in Wales although largely RCT and Caerphilly.
The only places it hasnt spread have been places who kept their borders closed.
We are in a position where places have tried to do what you suggested and it has failed. Time for you to wake up and realise that these [policies are the reason for the spread.
I wouldnt have opened pubs until the virus was got rid of. I wouldnt have followed the senseless policies re air travel. The fact is the policies being persued were working. They suppressed the virus and an average of 15 is much better than 160 or so over the last week and going up.
When you have the figures down to 15 you are close to defeating it. Since Drakeford has followed your suggestion things have got far worse.
You go on about keeping things open for business. How did they manage during the war years.
We have 2 choices. Following your failed system where the cases have increased 10 fold which you have previously suggested is how to control the virus or the policy originally adopted by Drakeford and which I believe in which reduced the new cases from 391 in a day to 8. There is no in between system.
Health Minister Edward Argar has been accused of blaming pubgoers for a spike in Covid-19 cases, just months after the Government urged Britons to support their local.
Prime Minister Boris Johnson encouraged Britons to return to pubs after lockdown restrictions were eased in July.
[Post edited 17 Sep 2020 12:39]
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So you think we should be in full lockdown until one of the most densely populated, interconnected, service economy dependent nations on earth has eradicated the virus? | | | |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 13:42 - Sep 17 with 1468 views | exhmrc1 |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 13:28 - Sep 17 by Andy1300 |
You would never have opened pubs then |
Not until things were under control and I wouldnt have done anything that has increased the number 10 fold. We were very close to getting rid of it. If we had stuck to our guns we would have been free. The problem is that letting people in with the virus has made things worse for pubs. If there werent any cases they wouldnt be spread in pubs. | | | |
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| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 13:49 - Sep 17 with 1461 views | Scotia |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 13:42 - Sep 17 by exhmrc1 |
Not until things were under control and I wouldnt have done anything that has increased the number 10 fold. We were very close to getting rid of it. If we had stuck to our guns we would have been free. The problem is that letting people in with the virus has made things worse for pubs. If there werent any cases they wouldnt be spread in pubs. |
One of the most out of touch posts ever. You are utterly deluded. | | | |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 13:58 - Sep 17 with 1460 views | exhmrc1 |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 13:49 - Sep 17 by Scotia |
One of the most out of touch posts ever. You are utterly deluded. |
You are out of touch. When the figures were 1000 in the UK you claimed they were under control. It is now 4 times higher. Are they still in control. In the meantime we have had much of the North and Midlands under local lockdowns following on from the policies you support. 2 of the UKs biggest cities Birmingham and Manchester having been in lockdown. It says it all. Follow your policies. How does that look for all those millions of people. | | | |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 14:14 - Sep 17 with 1450 views | exhmrc1 |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 13:28 - Sep 17 by Andy1300 |
You would never have opened pubs then |
By the way your previous comments about nobody dying has been proven wrong today. Sadly there has been 3 new deaths in Wales today. The first deaths for a fortnight. The hospital intake and the cases in critical care has also doubled. It isnt a myth like you believe. More cases eventually lead to more deaths and I put saviour of peoples lives above pubs and holidays. Unfortunately some on here and in government do the opposite. | | | |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 14:34 - Sep 17 with 1445 views | Scotia |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 14:14 - Sep 17 by exhmrc1 |
By the way your previous comments about nobody dying has been proven wrong today. Sadly there has been 3 new deaths in Wales today. The first deaths for a fortnight. The hospital intake and the cases in critical care has also doubled. It isnt a myth like you believe. More cases eventually lead to more deaths and I put saviour of peoples lives above pubs and holidays. Unfortunately some on here and in government do the opposite. |
Says a man who's salary is paid by the government everyday of the year.
What about those who work in pubs?
What about those who work in restaurants?
What about those who work in airports?
What about those who work in travel agents? Etc, etc.
Would you sacrifice your pension for them to put food on the table?
My entire point is they had to open to pay for future closure.
You are clearly selfish, but I don't understand how you can't understand that.
As for eliminating the virus then that is absolutely impossible in the UK. Again I don't understand how you can't understand that. | | | |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 14:37 - Sep 17 with 1443 views | Professor |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 13:42 - Sep 17 by exhmrc1 |
Not until things were under control and I wouldnt have done anything that has increased the number 10 fold. We were very close to getting rid of it. If we had stuck to our guns we would have been free. The problem is that letting people in with the virus has made things worse for pubs. If there werent any cases they wouldnt be spread in pubs. |
Sadly we were nowhere near being rid of the virus.
The problem is you can only control infectious disease in 2 ways:
1. Breaking transmission
2. Removing susceptibles in a population
2 is primarily through exposure (not ideal when anything has a mortality rate above 1 in 10000) or through vaccination. The only examples of eradication are where vaccines are available (rinderpest, smallpox, wild polio).
Transmission can be reduced by distancing and movement restrictions- much easier in animals where exclusion zones and transport bans are used, isolation of positives or removal of positives from a population. As we can't do this for people (I think even Cummings would stop at culls) we are left with distancing, but impossible to completely achieve. Of course if we had a system of testing everyone weekly then we could almost control. But we can't provide testing enough now. And as for the 'moonshot'... | | | |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 14:52 - Sep 17 with 1434 views | exhmrc1 |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 14:34 - Sep 17 by Scotia |
Says a man who's salary is paid by the government everyday of the year.
What about those who work in pubs?
What about those who work in restaurants?
What about those who work in airports?
What about those who work in travel agents? Etc, etc.
Would you sacrifice your pension for them to put food on the table?
My entire point is they had to open to pay for future closure.
You are clearly selfish, but I don't understand how you can't understand that.
As for eliminating the virus then that is absolutely impossible in the UK. Again I don't understand how you can't understand that. |
Your argument was it was under control. That was when the figures had gone from 400 to 1000. It is now 10 times the 400. Clearly isnt in control and continuing to carry on with the risky business is putting every one else at risk. Shops, offices etc. Having local lockdowns isnt helping those in areas that suffered.
There isnt the kind of way you want. Cases are increasing. Deaths are beginning to increase. When we had the stay local policy you complained but there is absolutely helped reduce cases and deaths.
We have tried your way and the result is millions have ended up in local lockdowns .That is the reality not your dream ideas. | | | |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 15:09 - Sep 17 with 1425 views | Scotia |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 14:52 - Sep 17 by exhmrc1 |
Your argument was it was under control. That was when the figures had gone from 400 to 1000. It is now 10 times the 400. Clearly isnt in control and continuing to carry on with the risky business is putting every one else at risk. Shops, offices etc. Having local lockdowns isnt helping those in areas that suffered.
There isnt the kind of way you want. Cases are increasing. Deaths are beginning to increase. When we had the stay local policy you complained but there is absolutely helped reduce cases and deaths.
We have tried your way and the result is millions have ended up in local lockdowns .That is the reality not your dream ideas. |
It was under control. Now it isn't under control in some areas hence local lockdowns. That was always going to happen becasue we can't eradicate the virus.
It was under control way before Drakeford needlessly kept Welsh business in lockdown for an extra month, and the stay local policy far longer than it was needed. Why do you think cases in Wales increased at the same time as England?
This is the reality. Not your Swansea Valley bubble of being kept by the state. | | | |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 15:53 - Sep 17 with 1405 views | exhmrc1 |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 15:09 - Sep 17 by Scotia |
It was under control. Now it isn't under control in some areas hence local lockdowns. That was always going to happen becasue we can't eradicate the virus.
It was under control way before Drakeford needlessly kept Welsh business in lockdown for an extra month, and the stay local policy far longer than it was needed. Why do you think cases in Wales increased at the same time as England?
This is the reality. Not your Swansea Valley bubble of being kept by the state. |
The reality is that there are well over 20 comprehensives in Wales with years off school together with many primaries. Approximately 10 million of the English population ie roughly 1/5 have or are under local lockdowns. The result of the kind of policy you want adopted. This is in addition to those who caught the virus, been very ill or sadly who have died.
I actually believe in not doing anything to make matters worse but you think all these things are WORTH it.
This is nothing ton do with a Swansea ValleY Bubble. It is how to prevent people suffering nasty illnesses or worse still deaths which is something that doesnt concern you. I dont want children not to have to suffer missing school. Something the policies you support has done. | | | |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 16:18 - Sep 17 with 1394 views | Scotia |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 15:53 - Sep 17 by exhmrc1 |
The reality is that there are well over 20 comprehensives in Wales with years off school together with many primaries. Approximately 10 million of the English population ie roughly 1/5 have or are under local lockdowns. The result of the kind of policy you want adopted. This is in addition to those who caught the virus, been very ill or sadly who have died.
I actually believe in not doing anything to make matters worse but you think all these things are WORTH it.
This is nothing ton do with a Swansea ValleY Bubble. It is how to prevent people suffering nasty illnesses or worse still deaths which is something that doesnt concern you. I dont want children not to have to suffer missing school. Something the policies you support has done. |
There is a world outside the virus.
What about making lives worse for the 10's millions employed in the service and hospitality industry that wouldn't be seriously ill?
What about the lives of everyone who will currently pay for the biggest recession in history - without making it an even bigger recession?
What about the millions who will already lose their jobs because of the massive recession that you want made bigger?
All this will cost lives too.
There are about 1500 schools in Wales - 1480 (ish) or 98.5% of them are operating as normal. About 45 million people in England aren't in lockdown.
We have to control the virus but not at the cost of the rest of society. Local lockdowns are the only way to deal with this. We can't eradicate the virus so we can't completely eliminate the risk - I can't wait until we can, but that is years away. We have to try and move on safely. | | | |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 16:30 - Sep 17 with 1389 views | Catullus |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 16:18 - Sep 17 by Scotia |
There is a world outside the virus.
What about making lives worse for the 10's millions employed in the service and hospitality industry that wouldn't be seriously ill?
What about the lives of everyone who will currently pay for the biggest recession in history - without making it an even bigger recession?
What about the millions who will already lose their jobs because of the massive recession that you want made bigger?
All this will cost lives too.
There are about 1500 schools in Wales - 1480 (ish) or 98.5% of them are operating as normal. About 45 million people in England aren't in lockdown.
We have to control the virus but not at the cost of the rest of society. Local lockdowns are the only way to deal with this. We can't eradicate the virus so we can't completely eliminate the risk - I can't wait until we can, but that is years away. We have to try and move on safely. |
We have to find the right balance, you're right. That means accepting a certain level of extra deaths but they have learned from the virus (and their mistakes) so far and treatment is better.
We have to consider the other effects of lockdowns, in themselves they can cause health problems, suicides have risen, mental health issues rising. If the economy collapses the outcomes could be far worse than we are seeing now.
Is this going to be a recession or a depression, if the economy is completely wrecked it'll be depression I think and that will cause many more deaths.
Hard as it is, life has to go on, otherwise what is the point? | |
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| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 21:18 - Sep 17 with 1333 views | Andy1300 |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 14:14 - Sep 17 by exhmrc1 |
By the way your previous comments about nobody dying has been proven wrong today. Sadly there has been 3 new deaths in Wales today. The first deaths for a fortnight. The hospital intake and the cases in critical care has also doubled. It isnt a myth like you believe. More cases eventually lead to more deaths and I put saviour of peoples lives above pubs and holidays. Unfortunately some on here and in government do the opposite. |
Wow, 3 out of how many? 3 million or so ?
I think that’s rather a small percentage and you need to get a sense of perspective! | |
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| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 21:21 - Sep 17 with 1329 views | Andy1300 |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 13:42 - Sep 17 by exhmrc1 |
Not until things were under control and I wouldnt have done anything that has increased the number 10 fold. We were very close to getting rid of it. If we had stuck to our guns we would have been free. The problem is that letting people in with the virus has made things worse for pubs. If there werent any cases they wouldnt be spread in pubs. |
What planet are you on?
We are stuck with this virus and need to learn to live with it, not lock everything down constantly. | |
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| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 21:44 - Sep 17 with 1308 views | exhmrc1 |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 21:18 - Sep 17 by Andy1300 |
Wow, 3 out of how many? 3 million or so ?
I think that’s rather a small percentage and you need to get a sense of perspective! |
That is just the start. There will be many more as time goes on. You have been saying nobody dies but there was always going to be a period from infection to death. If infections stay as they are or keep growing the deaths will was well. | | | |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 21:50 - Sep 17 with 1302 views | Andy1300 |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 21:44 - Sep 17 by exhmrc1 |
That is just the start. There will be many more as time goes on. You have been saying nobody dies but there was always going to be a period from infection to death. If infections stay as they are or keep growing the deaths will was well. |
And the numbers will still be massaged to make the deaths look worse than they are. | |
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| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 21:50 - Sep 17 with 1299 views | Andy1300 |
Hey, it’s ok, these time will be back soon enough then
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| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 23:02 - Sep 17 with 1273 views | exhmrc1 |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 21:50 - Sep 17 by Andy1300 |
Hey, it’s ok, these time will be back soon enough then
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Had we taken action correctly perhaps we might be avoiding this. We were down to an average 15 cases a day. Had we continued on the path we were on by now we wouldnt have had or at least had minimum amounts. Instead we open our borders and people come back with the virus and spread it throughout the community through pubs and lack of social distancing at home. The net result is that instead of the 8 cases we had on 12 August we had 199 cases yesterday increasing the likelyhood of the Health Service cancelling operations. The figures speak for themselves 5 August 14 , 12 August 8, 19 August 21, 26 August 34, 2 September 42, 9 September 165, 16 September 199.
Do you see the pattern developing. Up until pubs reopened and people came back from holidays the figures were dropping by close to 1/2 per week. Since 8 August there has been an increase making what you have posted far more likely | | | |
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