| The LFW Brexit Poll on 14:04 - Jun 16 with 2595 views | DeepcutHoop |
| The LFW Brexit Poll on 13:51 - Jun 16 by 1BobbyHazell |
A little disappointing whilst not totally unexpected, mockery is an easy get out when confronted with a question that you cannot answer, so well done and all that. Now perhaps you could give me your thoughts on the Icelandic President's insightful oratory based on his peerless experience of this 'research' and his conclusions on its validity and the influence behind it.
I look forward to your thoughts and hope you are honest enough to actually listen to the only man to have led a country who decided to go against these organisations that you seem to feel are genuinely unbiased research facilities.
Who are we in debt to and why? [Post edited 16 Jun 2016 13:52]
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TBF the first line of your response to the Economist Intelligence Unit stats was to mock it.
#JustSaying |  | |  |
| The LFW Brexit Poll on 14:09 - Jun 16 with 2588 views | 1BobbyHazell |
| The LFW Brexit Poll on 14:04 - Jun 16 by DeepcutHoop |
TBF the first line of your response to the Economist Intelligence Unit stats was to mock it.
#JustSaying |
It was, but there was quite a bit after that wouldn't you say? His was nothing but.
Anyway enough of the mockery business, Rfromafar is a good man and I'm looking forward to his comments on Iceland's experience of the bodies he has decided to put his faith in. |  | | |
| The LFW Brexit Poll on 22:10 - Jun 16 with 2498 views | Hoop_Du_Jour |
So sick ofthe greed, money money money. Vote in or your holiday will cost more! fck off and when you get there fck off a bit further, keep going we don't want your greedy fckn ass telling us what to think or say.
The quality of life down here at the low pay unit is fckn abysmal when you have to rub shoulders with the imigrunts that tip the clothing banks over and dip the smallest of their 8 sprogs in to grab the socks at the bottom.
Glad I'm gonna be dead soon, can't take anymore of these left wing liberal let them in to kill us cause we're better than that cnts.
Bad day
Bad year
Bad fckn everything today |  | | |
| The LFW Brexit Poll on 00:28 - Jun 17 with 2442 views | PunteR |
If we stay in why would the EU dictate to Britain what we can and cant do?. I mean, if we're financially and politically strong enough to get out and go it alone surely we're strong enough to stay in and not let Brussels or whatever tell Britain what it should do.?
The old saying keep your friends close but your enemies even closer springs to mind.
I honestly don't have a clue as to what's best, and i keep swaying from one to another. I'm like that Paul Whitehouse character who's down the pub and just agrees to every opinion said to him. |  |
| Occasional providers of half decent House music. |
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| The LFW Brexit Poll on 13:52 - Jun 20 with 2288 views | 1BobbyHazell |
| The LFW Brexit Poll on 13:51 - Jun 16 by 1BobbyHazell |
A little disappointing whilst not totally unexpected, mockery is an easy get out when confronted with a question that you cannot answer, so well done and all that. Now perhaps you could give me your thoughts on the Icelandic President's insightful oratory based on his peerless experience of this 'research' and his conclusions on its validity and the influence behind it.
I look forward to your thoughts and hope you are honest enough to actually listen to the only man to have led a country who decided to go against these organisations that you seem to feel are genuinely unbiased research facilities.
Who are we in debt to and why? [Post edited 16 Jun 2016 13:52]
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I'm still waiting Rfromafar | | | |
| The LFW Brexit Poll on 22:04 - Jun 20 with 2212 views | martincook |
| The LFW Brexit Poll on 00:28 - Jun 17 by PunteR |
If we stay in why would the EU dictate to Britain what we can and cant do?. I mean, if we're financially and politically strong enough to get out and go it alone surely we're strong enough to stay in and not let Brussels or whatever tell Britain what it should do.?
The old saying keep your friends close but your enemies even closer springs to mind.
I honestly don't have a clue as to what's best, and i keep swaying from one to another. I'm like that Paul Whitehouse character who's down the pub and just agrees to every opinion said to him. |
Greetings PunteR! Here's the argument you need to help you give up being that Paul Whitehouse character.
The European Union has a population of over 500 million. Its Parliament consists of 751 MEPs, each elected in their own country under national systems of proportional representation. Of these, the British electorate returns 73, a figure proportionately smaller than that of its population to Europe's as a whole. This Parliament is one of seven EU institutions of governance. None of those who work in any of the six other institutions is directly elected on a European level and most are not elected at all. Whether it's in the European Council, the European Commission, the Council of the EU, the Court of Justice of the EU, the European Central Bank or the European Court of Auditors, of those who frame laws, determine policy, attend top level international meetings, draw the highest salaries and generally derive benefit from the position of power and prestige which their status affords, not one can be voted out by the people of Europe.
Given this apparent shortage of democracy, the European Parliament would need to be especially effective to compensate for the complete absence of democracy that exists in other parts of the system. Unfortunately, especially as seen from the point of view of electors who are able to vote only for representatives from their own country, it is not. Britain is no better off than any other member state in this respect. As the number of European member states goes up, the proportion of each nation's MEPs in the Parliament comes down. The people of Britain are represented by a body of politicians who not only are unable to block legislation that does not correspond to their constituents' interests but who also cannot agree amongst themselves as to what those interests might be. For example, of the 73, 22 are members of the United Kingdom Independence Party who by definition would rather not be MEPs at all. In fact MEPs don't sit in national blocks but get together according to political persuasion. In principle, politically like-minded MEPs form alliances to maximise the power of their vote but how effective are these alliances in safeguarding the wishes of each nation's electorate? From the British point of view, during the 2009 - 2014 term, of the 1,936 motions put before Parliament, 576 were sufficiently contrary to our interests to attract the disapproval of a majority of our MEPs, who voted against, agreeing (for a change) across party lines. But 476 of these motions were still passed - an abject failure rate of 84%. This democratic shortcoming might be easier to accept (or ignore) if the EU had relatively little influence on our lives. Unfortunately, we know this is not the case. Regardless of whose estimate you accept, it is uncontentious to assume that over two-thirds of new legislation in Britain is effectively handed down from the European Union.
The EU does not have a monopoly on lack of democracy. It can be argued that the British constitutional arrangement, while it has the advantage of having evolved over a long period, is nevertheless stuck at a point where it is not fit to be called democratic. Its main political parties no longer represent the interests of large enough groups within society to justify their influence, which has become disproportionate. They have no incentive to behave democratically. Instead, they accept funding from the wealthy and powerful, whose interests are often directly opposed to those of the electorate. They "parachute" apologists for the Great and the Good into comfortable, secure parliamentary constituencies, irrespective of their true motives and aspirations, which are often focussed on the promotion of their own careers. They persist with a system in which the Nation's leader, the Prime Minister, can be neither elected nor removed from office by direct democracy but who is instead selected according to the idiosyncrasy of his Party's internal electoral rules. Some of these rules are very idiosyncratic indeed. Although our democracy is in urgent need of radical reform, all is not lost. We can vote for change. If, for example, the Labour Party were to embrace a suitable system of proportional representation and form an alliance with other like-minded parties (i.e. all but the Conservatives) in order to contest a general election on the single issue of electoral reform, to be followed immediately by a second general election under the new system, this alliance would be swept to power in the first instance. In the subsequent election, the attitude of the electorate would be transformed from the current apathy to a sense of relief and engagement. This is what reform is for. Although it would be difficult to achieve, our common interest in securing the right outcome would be there for everyone to see, as is the path by which we could arrive at it.
Contrast this with the equally necessary reform to the EU system. There, we have no direct influence on decision making. Even if we could form the alliances necessary for a majority in the European Parliament, we would still rely entirely on those we have not elected to propose our reform, so that parliamentarians could vote on it. Would they show any enthusiasm for giving up their unelected power? Given the history of politics and power in Europe, it would be very uncharacteristic of them to do so. To be clear, the answer is "No". For while the EU's governance is undemocratic by design, the attitude of many of its senior politicians and functionaries is worse. When the people of Greece elected a government to protect them from a vicious self-perpetuating economic and social punishment imposed by those they had never voted for in countries most had never seen, their representatives were treated with derision and public humiliation. When they confirmed overwhelmingly, in a referendum, that they remained broadly committed to the decision they had made previously, their government was humiliated again and the punishment increased. Their country and their society now lie, by the diktat of our European masters, in a state of semi ruin of which every one of us in the EU should be ashamed. We should be in no doubt that this unforgivable, cynical suppression of democracy, this arrogant anti-democracy, is and will be applied to any member state whose people do not toe the line. And whether as Europeans or as nationals, we should ask whose line it is that we are all supposed to be toeing.
For anyone who's not sure, post a response and I'll clarify it, well, as I see it, anyway. |  | | |
| The LFW Brexit Poll on 12:51 - Jun 21 with 2126 views | R_from_afar |
| The LFW Brexit Poll on 13:52 - Jun 20 by 1BobbyHazell |
I'm still waiting Rfromafar |
Man, you're demanding! I have listened to the first interview in its entirety and whilst I'm delighted that ignoring conventional wisdom worked out for Iceland, that is certainly no guarantee that the IMF, the BoE, the US Treasury, the OECD etc are always wrong and should always be ignored.
RFA |  |
| "Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1." |
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| The LFW Brexit Poll on 12:58 - Jun 21 with 2120 views | martincook |
| The LFW Brexit Poll on 12:51 - Jun 21 by R_from_afar |
Man, you're demanding! I have listened to the first interview in its entirety and whilst I'm delighted that ignoring conventional wisdom worked out for Iceland, that is certainly no guarantee that the IMF, the BoE, the US Treasury, the OECD etc are always wrong and should always be ignored.
RFA |
So should we be done with conventional wisdom and rely on the self-interest of dodgy forecasters instead? | | | |
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| The LFW Brexit Poll on 13:42 - Jun 21 with 2104 views | R_from_afar |
| The LFW Brexit Poll on 12:58 - Jun 21 by martincook |
So should we be done with conventional wisdom and rely on the self-interest of dodgy forecasters instead? |
Where on earth have you got "conventional wisdom" from? That's putting words in my mouth.
And what exactly is "conventional wisdom"? Is it defined as ignoring any attempt at science, forecasting or research?
Are you saying *any* organisation whose research cautions against Brexit is dodgy and self-serving? Seriously, how likely is that?
RFA | |
| "Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1." |
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| The LFW Brexit Poll on 13:59 - Jun 21 with 2091 views | martincook |
| The LFW Brexit Poll on 13:42 - Jun 21 by R_from_afar |
Where on earth have you got "conventional wisdom" from? That's putting words in my mouth.
And what exactly is "conventional wisdom"? Is it defined as ignoring any attempt at science, forecasting or research?
Are you saying *any* organisation whose research cautions against Brexit is dodgy and self-serving? Seriously, how likely is that?
RFA |
No, I'm saying the organisations you mention are self-interested and their forecasts are dodgy. The term "conventional wisdom" came from your post. | | | |
| The LFW Brexit Poll on 14:10 - Jun 21 with 2078 views | BrianMcCarthy |
Going back to the OP what are the Polls in Britain saying at the moment.
On this side of the Irish Sea it's being reported as a Remain vote now, but is there anything to suggest a hidden 'Leave' vote, maybe something comparable to a Shy Tory vote? |  |
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| The LFW Brexit Poll on 14:22 - Jun 21 with 2064 views | 1BobbyHazell |
| The LFW Brexit Poll on 14:10 - Jun 21 by BrianMcCarthy |
Going back to the OP what are the Polls in Britain saying at the moment.
On this side of the Irish Sea it's being reported as a Remain vote now, but is there anything to suggest a hidden 'Leave' vote, maybe something comparable to a Shy Tory vote? |
It's In Brian, it was always going to be.
As you pointed out re the Irish situation if you don't vote for what they want they just redo everything and make you vote again until you do. | | | |
| The LFW Brexit Poll on 14:25 - Jun 21 with 2054 views | TheBlob |
| The LFW Brexit Poll on 14:10 - Jun 21 by BrianMcCarthy |
Going back to the OP what are the Polls in Britain saying at the moment.
On this side of the Irish Sea it's being reported as a Remain vote now, but is there anything to suggest a hidden 'Leave' vote, maybe something comparable to a Shy Tory vote? |
Didn't realise the Republic of Ireland was part of the UK? |  |
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| The LFW Brexit Poll on 14:26 - Jun 21 with 2053 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| The LFW Brexit Poll on 14:22 - Jun 21 by 1BobbyHazell |
It's In Brian, it was always going to be.
As you pointed out re the Irish situation if you don't vote for what they want they just redo everything and make you vote again until you do. |
Ya, that was my fear.
I've really enjoyed your commentary on it, Bobby. I started off a 100% remain voter*, and I still am on balance but I wanted to stay out of the conversation on here as it's not really my place. Your posts and the posts of a few more 'Leave' posters have really educated me, though. They've contained nuance, facts, research and intelligence which I haven't found anywhere else.
Thanks a million.
*I have English Nationality but I won't be voting this time around - haven't lived in England for a long time, so not really right to vote. [Post edited 21 Jun 2016 14:28]
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| The LFW Brexit Poll on 14:31 - Jun 21 with 2040 views | 1BobbyHazell |
| The LFW Brexit Poll on 12:51 - Jun 21 by R_from_afar |
Man, you're demanding! I have listened to the first interview in its entirety and whilst I'm delighted that ignoring conventional wisdom worked out for Iceland, that is certainly no guarantee that the IMF, the BoE, the US Treasury, the OECD etc are always wrong and should always be ignored.
RFA |
Thanks very much for listening. I would say in his interview he suggests that it wasn't so much 'conventional wisdom' that the Icelandic people chose to ignore so much as bullying from global organisations who were putting their own self-interest well before that of the Icelandic people. Using threats presented as research/analysis etc to promote a doomsday picture if their will was not done. He then goes on to explain the reality of what happened when he went in another direction.
All rounded off with a stark warning about the choice between true democracy for the good of the people and the wishes of the financial economic elite.
I guess it all comes down to whether you believe in the integrity of these organisations and whether they serve the world's people or the smaller more powerful elite institutions. It's pretty clear you and I have both made our choice.
P.S I'm sorry to read on the other thread that you feel concerned about your own job safety, I know that is the worst situation to be in and I hope whatever happens on Thursday it all works out for you. [Post edited 21 Jun 2016 14:32]
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| The LFW Brexit Poll on 16:02 - Jun 21 with 1999 views | 1BobbyHazell |
| The LFW Brexit Poll on 14:26 - Jun 21 by BrianMcCarthy |
Ya, that was my fear.
I've really enjoyed your commentary on it, Bobby. I started off a 100% remain voter*, and I still am on balance but I wanted to stay out of the conversation on here as it's not really my place. Your posts and the posts of a few more 'Leave' posters have really educated me, though. They've contained nuance, facts, research and intelligence which I haven't found anywhere else.
Thanks a million.
*I have English Nationality but I won't be voting this time around - haven't lived in England for a long time, so not really right to vote. [Post edited 21 Jun 2016 14:28]
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Thanks for your generous words, you're an absolute gent Brian.
Your not voting is just another example of your always impressive integrity. | | | |
| The LFW Brexit Poll on 16:26 - Jun 21 with 1972 views | QPR_John |
| The LFW Brexit Poll on 08:55 - Jun 16 by PinnerPaul |
Back to civilised debate for a minute
Interesting/sensible/thought provoking piece in the Eve Standard last night saying that if the vote IS to leave, it will still require an act of parliament and the bill would need to go through House of Lords like all bills.
Writer reckoned commons was roughly 70/30% for remain.
Constitutionally/legally nothing to stop MPS from ignoring vote, which writer speculated they might do if very close and a low turn out.
Say it was 52/48 leave on a 60% turn out, MPs might reject on the basis that only c30% of population voted out.
Interesting? |
That would open a can of worms not least that MP's would legitimise the idea that the number of people voting can be used to discredit the vote. Labour MP's might find that a difficult idea to come to terms with. | | | |
| The LFW Brexit Poll on 19:24 - Jun 21 with 1924 views | R_from_afar |
| The LFW Brexit Poll on 13:59 - Jun 21 by martincook |
No, I'm saying the organisations you mention are self-interested and their forecasts are dodgy. The term "conventional wisdom" came from your post. |
Humble apologies, I did use that term, D'oh, sorry.
I do think that is way too much of a generalisation, the "dodgy" and "self-interested" stuff. We are talking about a lot of diverse and unrelated organisations. This really isn't one huge conspiracy.
RFA | |
| "Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1." |
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| The LFW Brexit Poll on 08:25 - Jun 23 with 1830 views | Rs_Holy |
looks like there's been a last minute swing for the IN's.... Still very close mind! |  | | |
| The LFW Brexit Poll on 11:37 - Jun 23 with 1790 views | PinnerPaul |
| The LFW Brexit Poll on 08:25 - Jun 23 by Rs_Holy |
looks like there's been a last minute swing for the IN's.... Still very close mind! |
Not close according to Paddy Power
In 1/10
Out 6/1 | | | |
| The LFW Brexit Poll (n/t) on 13:26 - Jun 23 with 1759 views | daveB |
| The LFW Brexit Poll on 11:37 - Jun 23 by PinnerPaul |
Not close according to Paddy Power
In 1/10
Out 6/1 |
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| The LFW Brexit Poll (n/t) on 13:52 - Jun 23 with 1702 views | PinnerPaul |
| The LFW Brexit Poll (n/t) on 13:26 - Jun 23 by daveB |
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Did you mean to say something there Dave?  | | | |
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