| When will the penny drop? 00:44 - Aug 18 with 17512 views | Dr_Parnassus |
Everything that was warned about with regards to switching to a style that the players aren’t suited to is now visible to most. There is a very good reason we didn’t start trying to be Brazil of the 1970’s over the last 2 seasons… and as a result saw the side be one of the best in the league… it’s because the manager realised the limitations of the squad and played to their strengths. That’s management.
I am wondering at what point the collective penny will drop that we cannot continue to play this way UNTIL we have the squad capable to do it. The Championship is too strong a league to be doing that, last time we got to this level we were a slick, well oiled machine with players capable of playing Premier League football in Dyer, Williams, Rangel and Britton. That spine would go on to win the League Cup, finish top half in the Premier League and perform well in Europe…. A championship spine it was not.
We had the players with ability leagues above the level they were playing at meaning we could afford to take some risks with regards to playing style. A nearing prime Leon Britton in league 1 seems a bit laughable now doesn’t it? That’s because it was.
The situation sadly is not the same today. We need to play to our strengths, get some points on the board, get the players in that we need and slowly incorporate the system you want. People talk of long term plans… and then change a system overnight?! We will get slaughtered at this level.
How about that actually becomes the longer term plan touted about and we slowly implement it while protecting our Championship status? Too mad an idea?
We do not want to lose our league position and drop down to league 1 as I see some people now happily stating they wouldn’t mind. I find that sad to read and extremely naive.
Relegation won’t mean us having an easy season to test this style against, we will lose even more players, have less income to replace them and the spiral continues. It’s an arrogant point of view to think relegation can be handled easily by the club.
Relegation is not a positive option and the fact we have gone from play offs to the Premier League to accepting the realities and the weighing up of pros and cons of League 1 football in such a short space of time should tell you something ain’t right.
I like Russell Martin, I think he has a good future in the game, my issue is not with him and I hope he stays for a long time to build something. My issue is with the attitude surrounding everything at the moment that we must play a certain way immediately, regardless of the damage it will cause.
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| When will the penny drop? on 14:17 - Aug 19 with 712 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| When will the penny drop? on 14:15 - Aug 19 by jackrmee |
And also ask Swans fans if they are willing to revert to Burnley, or Tony Pulis style of play, simply for a better chance of getting back to the prem, I'm sure you'll have little response/. |
If someone gave us the chance to play like Burnley and as a result be in their position.
You could count the percentage of the fan base that would say no on one hand. No doubt. | |
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| When will the penny drop? on 14:20 - Aug 19 with 707 views | jackrmee |
| When will the penny drop? on 14:17 - Aug 19 by Dr_Parnassus |
If someone gave us the chance to play like Burnley and as a result be in their position.
You could count the percentage of the fan base that would say no on one hand. No doubt. |
Very true.
But for that, you would need magic, or miracles.
It is not possible. |  |
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| When will the penny drop? on 14:20 - Aug 19 with 700 views | onehunglow |
| When will the penny drop? on 14:17 - Aug 19 by Dr_Parnassus |
If someone gave us the chance to play like Burnley and as a result be in their position.
You could count the percentage of the fan base that would say no on one hand. No doubt. |
Ive mentioned Burnley
Incredibly proud club and fans who BELIEVE they should be at the top table.
We never did really. Our fans can still hark back to the dark days and nights at the Vetch.
Swansea is more than 3 times the size of Burnley with no competition at all |  |
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| When will the penny drop? on 14:26 - Aug 19 with 701 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| When will the penny drop? on 14:20 - Aug 19 by jackrmee |
Very true.
But for that, you would need magic, or miracles.
It is not possible. |
But it shows the appetite for success over perceived entertainment.
If we continue to play this way and continue to lose, crowds will dramatically dwindle compared to previous seasons where the style of play wasn’t seen as “entertaining” but relative success very much present.
Success will always be more important to a club than entertainment, which is why the clubs league status will not be risked, or indeed should not be risked. Time will tell how bad it has to get before the plug is pulled. | |
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| When will the penny drop? on 14:42 - Aug 19 with 681 views | Fireboy2 |
| When will the penny drop? on 13:54 - Aug 19 by Dr_Parnassus |
Not at all, those people, like me recognised we were 90 mins away from the Premier League and on an upward trajectory… 10th, 6th, 4th.
I’d absolutely want to be part of that.
You say that, if we continue playing this way the Swansea.com crowd will be among its lowest pre covid for a long time. Add relegation into that it will be even lower.
“Entertainment” will be found elsewhere despite this apparently being the new and improved form of said entertainment. |
So you agree that potential swans fans would have been put off by our play off performance then? In fact they probably would have become brentford fans. |  | | |
| When will the penny drop? on 14:43 - Aug 19 with 685 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| When will the penny drop? on 14:42 - Aug 19 by Fireboy2 |
So you agree that potential swans fans would have been put off by our play off performance then? In fact they probably would have become brentford fans. |
Quote which part of my post you think suggests that specifically… | |
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| When will the penny drop? on 14:44 - Aug 19 with 685 views | Chief |
| When will the penny drop? on 13:24 - Aug 19 by jackrmee |
Yeah I agree, the defence has gone backwards, but thats because of the changes I suggest.
There has been little time to work on anything in training yet.
Think I heard RM saying that they have had less than a week on the grass. Most time has been on the screens and recuperation time.
The whole set up has changed though.
The whole defensive system is different, from how they line up, what the WBs do, where the CBs need to position themselves.
I personally think that the whole team needs to work together in this system.
You can't ask the attack and midfield to play in RM's way, but hold back with the defence for a while, because the defence is inclusive in how the rest of the team sets up. |
Yes, because of the changes. There's been personnel changes, that's not Martin's fault, but did there really need to be style and set up changes of a such a wholesale nature this early, at the back? That is in Martin's control.
Yea the defensive set up and system is different and has changed - by choice via Martin.
Personally I think it is doable to have a hybrid overall system. |  |
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| When will the penny drop? on 14:49 - Aug 19 with 676 views | jackrmee |
| When will the penny drop? on 14:26 - Aug 19 by Dr_Parnassus |
But it shows the appetite for success over perceived entertainment.
If we continue to play this way and continue to lose, crowds will dramatically dwindle compared to previous seasons where the style of play wasn’t seen as “entertaining” but relative success very much present.
Success will always be more important to a club than entertainment, which is why the clubs league status will not be risked, or indeed should not be risked. Time will tell how bad it has to get before the plug is pulled. |
It's not a choice of either or though mate.
We aren't choosing to change our style of play, in return for a place in the premier league.
We are choosing to change our style of play, for a better chance of getting into the premier league, at some time in the future. | |
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| When will the penny drop? on 14:54 - Aug 19 with 667 views | jackrmee |
| When will the penny drop? on 14:44 - Aug 19 by Chief |
Yes, because of the changes. There's been personnel changes, that's not Martin's fault, but did there really need to be style and set up changes of a such a wholesale nature this early, at the back? That is in Martin's control.
Yea the defensive set up and system is different and has changed - by choice via Martin.
Personally I think it is doable to have a hybrid overall system. |
Of course he needed to implement those changes.
That's how he has spoken since he joined, and i assume at the interview too.
If you were a manager and you believed whole heartedly that your way works.
Would you think you should change your way, simply because it hasn't worked in 50% of the games you have played so far?
He believes in what he's doing and the way we are playing. He honestly thinks it's the best way, which is why he's playing this way.
Who are we to say he's wrong? | |
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| When will the penny drop? on 14:55 - Aug 19 with 666 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| When will the penny drop? on 14:49 - Aug 19 by jackrmee |
It's not a choice of either or though mate.
We aren't choosing to change our style of play, in return for a place in the premier league.
We are choosing to change our style of play, for a better chance of getting into the premier league, at some time in the future. |
It is either or.
When we changed our style many times previously there has been very clear indications that it will be successful. We saw modest to good returns points wise and performances were excellent. Usually minor details costing us the wins which then time would iron out.
This is not that. We look leagues apart from our opposition and of course is not coming as any great surprise, this is an expected situation and a reason many were explaining why we were not playing this way over the last few seasons.
We know we can have relative success playing to the players strengths, it’s been proven. | |
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| When will the penny drop? on 15:00 - Aug 19 with 661 views | jackrmee |
| When will the penny drop? on 14:55 - Aug 19 by Dr_Parnassus |
It is either or.
When we changed our style many times previously there has been very clear indications that it will be successful. We saw modest to good returns points wise and performances were excellent. Usually minor details costing us the wins which then time would iron out.
This is not that. We look leagues apart from our opposition and of course is not coming as any great surprise, this is an expected situation and a reason many were explaining why we were not playing this way over the last few seasons.
We know we can have relative success playing to the players strengths, it’s been proven. |
No it's not either or mate. If we change to Burnely's style of play, we don't magically join the premier league! | |
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| When will the penny drop? on 15:05 - Aug 19 with 651 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| When will the penny drop? on 15:00 - Aug 19 by jackrmee |
No it's not either or mate. If we change to Burnely's style of play, we don't magically join the premier league! |
Success over entertainment is the question, Burnley are irrelevant to the point.
If we continue getting battered playing this way when we know we can get points by playing pragmatic football, then it is literally a case of relative success or entertainment. | |
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| When will the penny drop? on 15:09 - Aug 19 with 649 views | jackrmee |
| When will the penny drop? on 15:05 - Aug 19 by Dr_Parnassus |
Success over entertainment is the question, Burnley are irrelevant to the point.
If we continue getting battered playing this way when we know we can get points by playing pragmatic football, then it is literally a case of relative success or entertainment. |
No mate, you used Burnely in an either or statement, not me. You are very skilled in twisting what was said.
"If someone gave us the chance to play like Burnley and as a result be in their position.
You could count the percentage of the fan base that would say no on one hand. No doubt." | |
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| When will the penny drop? on 15:12 - Aug 19 with 647 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| When will the penny drop? on 15:09 - Aug 19 by jackrmee |
No mate, you used Burnely in an either or statement, not me. You are very skilled in twisting what was said.
"If someone gave us the chance to play like Burnley and as a result be in their position.
You could count the percentage of the fan base that would say no on one hand. No doubt." |
Nope OHL said about Burnley playing a certain way. I said people would snatch their hands off if offered to play their way in return for success.
I followed that up with another post saying success will always come before entertainment, not a single mention of Burnley.
You then quoted that post and said “it’s not either or”.
I said it is either or, if we continue playing this “entertaining” way and we are facing the drop, the plug will be pulled because success is more important than entertainment.
Burnley have nothing to do with it.
This is the post you quoted, not a mention of Burnley in sight…
“ But it shows the appetite for success over perceived entertainment.
If we continue to play this way and continue to lose, crowds will dramatically dwindle compared to previous seasons where the style of play wasn’t seen as “entertaining” but relative success very much present.
Success will always be more important to a club than entertainment, which is why the clubs league status will not be risked, or indeed should not be risked. Time will tell how bad it has to get before the plug is pulled.”
Instead of accusing people of twisting things you could learn to follow a discussion properly? Fair? [Post edited 19 Aug 2021 15:16]
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| When will the penny drop? on 15:14 - Aug 19 with 634 views | onehunglow |
| When will the penny drop? on 15:09 - Aug 19 by jackrmee |
No mate, you used Burnely in an either or statement, not me. You are very skilled in twisting what was said.
"If someone gave us the chance to play like Burnley and as a result be in their position.
You could count the percentage of the fan base that would say no on one hand. No doubt." |
If fans had a choice of...
Being in Premier League pitting their wits against the big motherfarkers in the game and surviving just fine or
playin pretty but meaningless football in the Championship,those who would opine the latter are liars.
Nothing glorious about losing games and we are and will right now unless something drastic happens. That means either a flood of new Russy type players or our current crop suddenly slip into whatever Russ wants,although not sure what he does frankly. He talks a good game though and clearly did when at his job interview. | |
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| When will the penny drop? on 15:28 - Aug 19 with 624 views | magicdaps10 |
| When will the penny drop? on 10:42 - Aug 19 by Dr_Parnassus |
6 months?! 
You reckon 36 games or so? So if it comes to the point where we finally realise we don’t have the players to do this… we have 10 games to save ourselves?
Sounds sensible. |
Well it would be start of Feb by the time he was appointed and 6 months passed......just checked and that's 17 games remaining so will just correct your original guess there...51 points available.
So yes, would say it is very sensible space of time IF we were even in that position. |  |
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| When will the penny drop? on 15:28 - Aug 19 with 624 views | Chief |
| When will the penny drop? on 14:54 - Aug 19 by jackrmee |
Of course he needed to implement those changes.
That's how he has spoken since he joined, and i assume at the interview too.
If you were a manager and you believed whole heartedly that your way works.
Would you think you should change your way, simply because it hasn't worked in 50% of the games you have played so far?
He believes in what he's doing and the way we are playing. He honestly thinks it's the best way, which is why he's playing this way.
Who are we to say he's wrong? |
Why did he need to implement these changes? I don't think he necessarily did. It's obviously having a detrimental affect on our defending.
Well it's easily measurable-we're conceding loads of goals, so this way patently isn't working.
50%? I'd say apart from a cup game against a youth team is worked in 0% so yes I'd certainly make changes to steady the ship if I was manager.
Well that's kind of how football forums work. We discuss the team for better or worse and none of us have any influence over matters, we do have every right to say what is going wrong. | |
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| When will the penny drop? on 15:34 - Aug 19 with 613 views | magicdaps10 |
| When will the penny drop? on 15:28 - Aug 19 by magicdaps10 |
Well it would be start of Feb by the time he was appointed and 6 months passed......just checked and that's 17 games remaining so will just correct your original guess there...51 points available.
So yes, would say it is very sensible space of time IF we were even in that position. |
And let's get it right... It is a big IF as we stand here in August.
August mind, 3 league games... Its talk of a defeatist at this stage. | |
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| When will the penny drop? on 15:34 - Aug 19 with 613 views | jackrmee |
| When will the penny drop? on 15:12 - Aug 19 by Dr_Parnassus |
Nope OHL said about Burnley playing a certain way. I said people would snatch their hands off if offered to play their way in return for success.
I followed that up with another post saying success will always come before entertainment, not a single mention of Burnley.
You then quoted that post and said “it’s not either or”.
I said it is either or, if we continue playing this “entertaining” way and we are facing the drop, the plug will be pulled because success is more important than entertainment.
Burnley have nothing to do with it.
This is the post you quoted, not a mention of Burnley in sight…
“ But it shows the appetite for success over perceived entertainment.
If we continue to play this way and continue to lose, crowds will dramatically dwindle compared to previous seasons where the style of play wasn’t seen as “entertaining” but relative success very much present.
Success will always be more important to a club than entertainment, which is why the clubs league status will not be risked, or indeed should not be risked. Time will tell how bad it has to get before the plug is pulled.”
Instead of accusing people of twisting things you could learn to follow a discussion properly? Fair? [Post edited 19 Aug 2021 15:16]
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""If someone gave us the chance to play like Burnley and as a result be in their position."
This asks, would you take playing like Burnley in order to be in the prem.
Either that...
OR playing a different way, and not be in the prem.
EITHER/OR. | |
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| When will the penny drop? on 15:36 - Aug 19 with 606 views | magicdaps10 |
| When will the penny drop? on 15:34 - Aug 19 by jackrmee |
""If someone gave us the chance to play like Burnley and as a result be in their position."
This asks, would you take playing like Burnley in order to be in the prem.
Either that...
OR playing a different way, and not be in the prem.
EITHER/OR. |
And that is an opinion.
Most long term fans would take entertaining mid table championship football to bore fest fighting survival in the prem... My opinion that.
I await the post telling me its rubbish and wrong and then point me to the "FACT". | |
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| When will the penny drop? on 15:37 - Aug 19 with 606 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| When will the penny drop? on 15:34 - Aug 19 by jackrmee |
""If someone gave us the chance to play like Burnley and as a result be in their position."
This asks, would you take playing like Burnley in order to be in the prem.
Either that...
OR playing a different way, and not be in the prem.
EITHER/OR. |
You have to be trolling.
I literally just copy and pasted the exact post you replied to. Not a mention of Burnley.
Stop digging. | |
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| When will the penny drop? on 15:39 - Aug 19 with 601 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| When will the penny drop? on 15:36 - Aug 19 by magicdaps10 |
And that is an opinion.
Most long term fans would take entertaining mid table championship football to bore fest fighting survival in the prem... My opinion that.
I await the post telling me its rubbish and wrong and then point me to the "FACT". |
You mean the same Burnley that have finished in the top 10 of the Premier League twice in five seasons?
Ok. | |
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| When will the penny drop? on 15:41 - Aug 19 with 599 views | magicdaps10 |
| When will the penny drop? on 15:39 - Aug 19 by Dr_Parnassus |
You mean the same Burnley that have finished in the top 10 of the Premier League twice in five seasons?
Ok. |
Fair point but I didn't mention Burnley! | |
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| When will the penny drop? on 15:43 - Aug 19 with 595 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| When will the penny drop? on 15:41 - Aug 19 by magicdaps10 |
Fair point but I didn't mention Burnley! |
You replied to the wrong post then. | |
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| When will the penny drop? on 15:48 - Aug 19 with 587 views | jackrmee |
| When will the penny drop? on 15:37 - Aug 19 by Dr_Parnassus |
You have to be trolling.
I literally just copy and pasted the exact post you replied to. Not a mention of Burnley.
Stop digging. |
Apologies, it was OHL who mentioned Burnley originally, but you still quoted Burnley. [Post edited 19 Aug 2021 15:50]
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