| Brexit .... My thoughts... 11:07 - Jun 16 with 146132 views | JacksDad |
The one thing I am certain of re this vote is that no-one knows for sure what the repercussions economically will be if we pull out. If you listen to the experts it will be better if we stay in, however its all unconvincing. My issue is that after 10 years of Austerity, the services in this country have been cut to the bone, that is services that are needed by us all - not just Immigrants/benefit spongers. We are not in a position to afford the enormous gamble if it all goes t1ts up. I am taking my lead from Ray Winston and gambling responsibly and staying in. If we ever get to situation when everything is adequately funded and horrible 0 hours contracts were abolished ... then maybe it might be worth the risk to pull out. But to do it now is a massive gamble which we just cannot afford to lose. |  | | |  |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 16:00 - Jul 1 with 1657 views | DannytheR |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 15:48 - Jul 1 by Snipper |
I was the victim of knife crime, but that was back in 1985. A mate and myself were set upon for no reason and I was slashed down my face. Luckily it wasn't deep and it mostly healed. My nephew was robbed at knifepoint for his mobile phone about 4 years ago. I've also known other people to be robbed/mugged at knifepoint.
I hope your luck and your family and friends luck holds out. |
That's a nightmare, and I'm sorry to hear about your nephew. That's depressing and horrible. I do think kids having mobiles has definitely been very bad news for crime, because they get them nicked all the time, often violently. But I don't think that's a London problem. Cities across the country have it going on.
It's a city of 8 million people - there's always going to be crime. I don't know, maybe I've just had a very lucky streak, but I still feel safe here, and happy to bring a family up here. (And in relation to the size of the place, there's strikingly less gun crime here than Manchester or Nottingham, for instance).
Also, with all respect, it's horrific what happened to you, but it also happened 30 years ago.
Look at the Bush and the rest of west London. It's changed, and in a lot of ways I prefer how it was back in the 70s/80s than how it is now. But actually, if anything it's much less of a shthole now. There were definitely points in the past where you would feel nervous being in parts of W11 and W12 late at night. These days? The worst that's going to happen is getting flattened by people going to Westfield. [Post edited 1 Jul 2016 16:03]
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| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 16:09 - Jul 1 with 1626 views | Snipper |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 16:00 - Jul 1 by DannytheR |
That's a nightmare, and I'm sorry to hear about your nephew. That's depressing and horrible. I do think kids having mobiles has definitely been very bad news for crime, because they get them nicked all the time, often violently. But I don't think that's a London problem. Cities across the country have it going on.
It's a city of 8 million people - there's always going to be crime. I don't know, maybe I've just had a very lucky streak, but I still feel safe here, and happy to bring a family up here. (And in relation to the size of the place, there's strikingly less gun crime here than Manchester or Nottingham, for instance).
Also, with all respect, it's horrific what happened to you, but it also happened 30 years ago.
Look at the Bush and the rest of west London. It's changed, and in a lot of ways I prefer how it was back in the 70s/80s than how it is now. But actually, if anything it's much less of a shthole now. There were definitely points in the past where you would feel nervous being in parts of W11 and W12 late at night. These days? The worst that's going to happen is getting flattened by people going to Westfield. [Post edited 1 Jul 2016 16:03]
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It's all about opinions Danny. Even though that happened to me in 1985, I still think it was safer back then. I know that sounds strange, but that's the way I feel.
If we got into scrapes back in the day, it was primarily fists & feet. You recovered from bruises :-).
Nowadays if you get into a scrape, a knife will probably be used. (thinking youngsters here) |  | | |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 16:21 - Jul 1 with 1600 views | DannytheR |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 16:09 - Jul 1 by Snipper |
It's all about opinions Danny. Even though that happened to me in 1985, I still think it was safer back then. I know that sounds strange, but that's the way I feel.
If we got into scrapes back in the day, it was primarily fists & feet. You recovered from bruises :-).
Nowadays if you get into a scrape, a knife will probably be used. (thinking youngsters here) |
I hear you mate, and I do take on board what you're saying. Anything people have actually experienced themselves is always worth a lot more than just someone yapping on. But as you say, you can see it sounds strange to say it was safer then when what happened to you happened to you that long ago!
Again, a lot of it is personal experience, and maybe what part of London we're taking about. I don't know, my memory is that school could be pretty hairy in the 70s and 80s too. And I've got two primary school age kids who (at least until last Thursday) I was planing on sending to London secondary schools, and I'm not an idiot, I'm not blind, and I wouldn't try to score political points with my own children' safety (most of this isn't aimed at you, by the way!)
It worries me, but only in the same way that them getting hit by a car or getting a girl up the stick does. Being a parent is nothing but worries wherever you are. I've got friends who have moved out of London with kids and now say that where they are there's nothing for the kids to do, so they're already getting interested in drugs, or are lost in computer games to the point no-one can get two words out of them. [Post edited 1 Jul 2016 16:22]
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| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 17:23 - Jul 1 with 1522 views | LythamR |
I am sure when Crossrail opens and Danny and other uber londoners are whizzing around on their shiny new trains they will remember to say thank you to the rest of britain that is funding the building of it by at least 30%
Its swings and roundabouts, its not all one way traffic, London benefits massively from tourism based around the royal family but I dont think londoners pay any more than others to royal subsidies do they
I am not sure what we are defining as London is this debate about crime, I think its quite possible that parts of London are considerable safer now than back in the 70's but I am not sure the argument holds generally, certainly places like Hayes, Hillingdon Uxbridge, Ruislip are much edgier places now than they were back in the 70;s and 80's |  | | |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 18:12 - Jul 1 with 1470 views | DannytheR |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 17:23 - Jul 1 by LythamR |
I am sure when Crossrail opens and Danny and other uber londoners are whizzing around on their shiny new trains they will remember to say thank you to the rest of britain that is funding the building of it by at least 30%
Its swings and roundabouts, its not all one way traffic, London benefits massively from tourism based around the royal family but I dont think londoners pay any more than others to royal subsidies do they
I am not sure what we are defining as London is this debate about crime, I think its quite possible that parts of London are considerable safer now than back in the 70's but I am not sure the argument holds generally, certainly places like Hayes, Hillingdon Uxbridge, Ruislip are much edgier places now than they were back in the 70;s and 80's |
Well, Crossrail's an interesting one. I don't know many Londoners for who it hasn't already been a massive headache, and I'm still pretty foggy as to what the benefits will be. As far as anyone can tell, the main reason for it being built - demolishing most of Soho in the process, and costing unthinkable amounts of money —Â is to connect up the city with Reading in the west and Essex in the east. I'm sure that's going to be good news for some people, although more dramatically for people in the Thames Valley and Essex than existing Londoners. In theory the burden on the public transport system eases, though whether the benefits will end up outweighing the cost is a very moot point.
Like so much else that goes on in London (Garden Bridge, anyone?) we never got to vote on it ourselves. It was a fait accompl.
The trade off has been that, rather quietly, TfL were told last year they would get no government help with day to day running costs at all from 2018 onwards. That will make us the only capital city in Europe that doesn't get a government subsidy for its public transport.
That's why station staff have already been laid off from a lot of stations on the tube and Overground - which is, ironically, one thing that really is making the city less safe.
As for which bits of London we're talking about with crime, I'm not sure either. You'd have to ask the poster who first said it was a "shthole" filled with pickpockets and muggers. | | | |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 18:18 - Jul 1 with 1463 views | stevec |
There you go Danny, only 7 days into Brexit and already the government are abandoning austerity.
As the man said 'you've never had it so good' |  | | |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 18:28 - Jul 1 with 1487 views | DannytheR |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 18:18 - Jul 1 by stevec |
There you go Danny, only 7 days into Brexit and already the government are abandoning austerity.
As the man said 'you've never had it so good' |
Growth forecasts like ours will tend to have people reaching for the panic buttons, Steve. | | | |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 18:28 - Jul 1 with 1486 views | derbyhoop |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 09:08 - Jul 1 by BrianMcCarthy |
This is the most balanced, nuanced and comprehensive piece I've read on the issue all week. I've been disappointed with The Guardian for a while now but this is damn good journalism.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/30/brexit-disaster-decades-in-the-m
"On this point, those who voted remain should, at the very least, concede that had we voted to stay in, the country would not be having this conversation. If remain had won, we would already have returned to pretending that everything was carrying on just fine. Those people who have been forgotten would have stayed forgotten; those communities that have been abandoned would have stayed invisible to all but those who live in them. To insist that they will now suffer most ignores the fact that unless something had changed, they were going to suffer anyway. Those on the remain side who felt they didn’t recognise their own country when they woke up on Friday morning must spare a thought for the pensioner in Redcar or Wolverhampton who has been waking up every morning for the last 30 years, watching factories close and businesses move while the council cuts back services and foreigners arrive, wondering where their world has gone to.
Many of those who voted leave will undoubtedly feel that they have had their say after years of being ignored. But they are beginning to discover that they have been lied to. Even when it feels that there is nothing left to lose, it turns out that things can always get worse. And even when it feels like nobody tells you the truth, it turns out that some factions of the elite can and will do more damage to your life than others." |
Briliantly written article but aren't the conclusions unsettling. |  |
| "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one's lifetime." (Mark Twain)
Find me on twitter @derbyhoop and now on Bluesky |
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| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 18:33 - Jul 1 with 1471 views | derbyhoop |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 13:24 - Jul 1 by stevec |
Sadly, the best part of 48% would happily burn it.
And we wonder why our footballers are so half hearted? |
Whatever your politics and views on Brexit, that is below the belt, Steve. On a par with Farage's speech in the European Parliament. | |
| "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one's lifetime." (Mark Twain)
Find me on twitter @derbyhoop and now on Bluesky |
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| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 18:50 - Jul 1 with 1446 views | derbyhoop |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 14:07 - Jul 1 by vblockranger |
Dont get all the doom and gloom mate. I and most of the people in the country voted to Leave and got what we wanted. Exciting future ahead in a country not being told what to do by Euro bureaucrats. Points system for immigration. Stop free movement between EU and us. Cameron gone, Corbyn on his way. Sounds like a winner to me. |
Did the Leave voters get what they wanted, though?
Now we'll have 450,000 civil servants telling us what to do, instead of the 55,000 in the EU. If we want access to the SIngle Market we'll have to accept free movement. Therefore little change to immigration - apart from many immigrants now feeling very unwelcome. No effective government and no effective opposition.
Add in the £ tumbling against the $ and the Euro, which will, if continued, lead to higher inflation.
If that's a winner, what does a loser look like? | |
| "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one's lifetime." (Mark Twain)
Find me on twitter @derbyhoop and now on Bluesky |
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| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 18:55 - Jul 1 with 1435 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 18:28 - Jul 1 by derbyhoop |
Briliantly written article but aren't the conclusions unsettling. |
Incredibly. |  |
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| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 19:10 - Jul 1 with 2558 views | 18StoneOfHoop |
How did you vote?" said Pooh.
"Leave," said Piglet.
"I voted remain," said Pooh.
"Are we still friends?" said Piglet.
"Well to be honest, I'm not really sure" said Pooh, uncharacteristically thoughtfully. "It's a complex issue and not really one that can be reduced to seven lines of text for the purposes of a rather twee meme.
"On the one hand, a belief in unity, that we're stronger together, and that when we work as a team we both benefit, was one of the main reasons why I voted as I did.
"On the other hand, whilst I appreciate that, just as I did, you chose your vote based on what you thought was for the best, you have precipitated a huge financial collapse, destabilised my country, and threatened the future of my children, and it's hard for me to forget that, especially within a matter of hours.
"It's entirely possible that we're going to end up with a very much depleted Sixty Acre Wood, and while you might have no issue with the other animals who live here, you sided with those who did. As of yesterday, Kanga's had to go into hiding, Rabbit's marching to Christopher Robin's house demanding her immediate repatriation, and Tigger's had donkey shit shoved through his letterbox. While you might not have wanted that, you legitimised it, and decided that other animals' lives and security were collateral damage.
"It's true that you're still the small, massively overmarketed stuffed animal that you were before, but realistically I've seen another side of you that I hadn't before and it's going to take me some time to process that.
"And whenever I tried to discuss this with you beforehand, you either accused me of scaremongering or insisted on ignoring me and showing me pictures of cats instead.
"So rather than pressing me for assurances I'm in no position to make right now, I'd appreciate it if you could give me some space and allow me to get off my face on honey and grieve the future that I thought I had, which has been destroyed in the favour of the one that you've dragged me into."
Half Piglet,half Brutus of Lower Loft and Barlby Road, London W10.All-consuming overwheening ruthless treacherous ambition,his stubborn best. IMHO this piece by Jonathan Freedland in The Grauniad is better than Gary Yonge's - it really nails the disgraceful ambitious back-stabbing venal grusome twosome https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/01/boris-johnson-and-michael-
[Post edited 1 Jul 2016 22:56]
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| 'I'm 18 with a bullet.Got my finger on the trigger,I'm gonna pull it.."
Love,Peace and Fook Chelski!
More like 20StoneOfHoop now.
Let's face it I'm not getting any thinner.
Pass the cake and pies please. |
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| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 19:42 - Jul 1 with 2505 views | vblockranger |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 18:50 - Jul 1 by derbyhoop |
Did the Leave voters get what they wanted, though?
Now we'll have 450,000 civil servants telling us what to do, instead of the 55,000 in the EU. If we want access to the SIngle Market we'll have to accept free movement. Therefore little change to immigration - apart from many immigrants now feeling very unwelcome. No effective government and no effective opposition.
Add in the £ tumbling against the $ and the Euro, which will, if continued, lead to higher inflation.
If that's a winner, what does a loser look like? |
Yer i think eventually the Leave voters will get what they want.May take some time but i have faith it will happen. Good start anyhow. |  | | |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 19:52 - Jul 1 with 2484 views | 1BobbyHazell |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 18:55 - Jul 1 by BrianMcCarthy |
Incredibly. |
Why are the conclusions incredibly unsettling Brian? |  | | |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 21:09 - Jul 1 with 2428 views | stevec |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 18:33 - Jul 1 by derbyhoop |
Whatever your politics and views on Brexit, that is below the belt, Steve. On a par with Farage's speech in the European Parliament. |
Not sure if you've misinterpreted what I said with that last statement.
My point was just how many on the remain side seem to delight in doing this country down, dismissing those who believe in this country as little Englanders.
How about the remainers show some positivity, some belief for a change and stop slagging the believers off. | | | |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 21:14 - Jul 1 with 2416 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 19:52 - Jul 1 by 1BobbyHazell |
Why are the conclusions incredibly unsettling Brian? |
I'm not saying I agree with them, but they're dark and stark conclusions by the journalist.
I don't know enough about England since I left so while I agree with a lot of his logic I really don't know whether he's being pessimistic with his read on the situation. Either way, I was fairly shook by it. | |
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| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 21:36 - Jul 1 with 2400 views | E17hoop |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 21:09 - Jul 1 by stevec |
Not sure if you've misinterpreted what I said with that last statement.
My point was just how many on the remain side seem to delight in doing this country down, dismissing those who believe in this country as little Englanders.
How about the remainers show some positivity, some belief for a change and stop slagging the believers off. |
But belief can't be changed that easily. The threshold of belief that remainers have is much higher than the leavers have had and a change in belief isn't a simple binary remain/leave decision.
In many cases, remainers will want to see beneficial evidence of the decision to leave, and there's been little evidence to date. The markets have been in trouble, currency is down, fiscal policy will need to change, reported xenophobic attacks have increased, the political system is in turmoil, etc.
In 2012, 51% of people surveyed believed that cloud computing was affected by the weather. We know now that's rubbish but some people will still hold that belief. Only after people have been informed will their belief change; when the leavers are able to produce evidence of benefits in leaving there might be a change. Polls since the referendum suggest the opposite and that if the vote was run again today, the result would have been remain. |  |
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| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 21:54 - Jul 1 with 2382 views | 1BobbyHazell |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 21:36 - Jul 1 by E17hoop |
But belief can't be changed that easily. The threshold of belief that remainers have is much higher than the leavers have had and a change in belief isn't a simple binary remain/leave decision.
In many cases, remainers will want to see beneficial evidence of the decision to leave, and there's been little evidence to date. The markets have been in trouble, currency is down, fiscal policy will need to change, reported xenophobic attacks have increased, the political system is in turmoil, etc.
In 2012, 51% of people surveyed believed that cloud computing was affected by the weather. We know now that's rubbish but some people will still hold that belief. Only after people have been informed will their belief change; when the leavers are able to produce evidence of benefits in leaving there might be a change. Polls since the referendum suggest the opposite and that if the vote was run again today, the result would have been remain. |
Here is some peerlessly researched proof of what the EU is really about. As someone so interested in proof why leave might be positive I look forward to your opinions.
http://corporateeurope.org/eu-crisis/2016/06/how-eu-pushed-france-reforms-labour
Nothing personal against you but to judge the result after one week and not a single law change is frankly moronic. This is a long-term thing. [Post edited 1 Jul 2016 22:18]
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| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 22:00 - Jul 1 with 2368 views | 1BobbyHazell |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 21:14 - Jul 1 by BrianMcCarthy |
I'm not saying I agree with them, but they're dark and stark conclusions by the journalist.
I don't know enough about England since I left so while I agree with a lot of his logic I really don't know whether he's being pessimistic with his read on the situation. Either way, I was fairly shook by it. |
What parts were you shaken by? | | | |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 22:06 - Jul 1 with 2349 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 22:00 - Jul 1 by 1BobbyHazell |
What parts were you shaken by? |
I don't think I'd realised how bad the problems had become over the years were in England and came away with the feeling that there seemed to be no fix on the horizon. | |
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| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 22:44 - Jul 1 with 2302 views | E17hoop |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 21:54 - Jul 1 by 1BobbyHazell |
Here is some peerlessly researched proof of what the EU is really about. As someone so interested in proof why leave might be positive I look forward to your opinions.
http://corporateeurope.org/eu-crisis/2016/06/how-eu-pushed-france-reforms-labour
Nothing personal against you but to judge the result after one week and not a single law change is frankly moronic. This is a long-term thing. [Post edited 1 Jul 2016 22:18]
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Proof?
It's one opinion on an anti-EU site that doesn't reference how the Left in France are moving towards support of the law; they understand the benefit in the presidential elections and it's the right (Le Pen) and employers who are most upset.
Notwithstanding it doesn't demonstrate why leaving the EU will be a benefit to the UK now. What you're asking is for people who have voted remain to change their minds and support a decision which they don't agree with. Agreed, no law changes have taken place within a week but the effects have started as I mentioned above. It's reasonable for someone in the remain said to want to know that they will be no worse off, or better off if we exit the EU. The leave camp have provided no evidence of that since the referendum, so it's unreasonable to expect people to "show some positivity".
I still believe there will be no Brexit in any case. It will require a parliamentary instrument to make it happen and 480/630 MPs are remainers. | |
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| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 00:16 - Jul 2 with 2232 views | 1BobbyHazell |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 22:44 - Jul 1 by E17hoop |
Proof?
It's one opinion on an anti-EU site that doesn't reference how the Left in France are moving towards support of the law; they understand the benefit in the presidential elections and it's the right (Le Pen) and employers who are most upset.
Notwithstanding it doesn't demonstrate why leaving the EU will be a benefit to the UK now. What you're asking is for people who have voted remain to change their minds and support a decision which they don't agree with. Agreed, no law changes have taken place within a week but the effects have started as I mentioned above. It's reasonable for someone in the remain said to want to know that they will be no worse off, or better off if we exit the EU. The leave camp have provided no evidence of that since the referendum, so it's unreasonable to expect people to "show some positivity".
I still believe there will be no Brexit in any case. It will require a parliamentary instrument to make it happen and 480/630 MPs are remainers. |
It isn't an anti-EU site, it is a corporate lobbyist watchdog site. Doing the sort of research and providing the 'hidden behind the scenes' information that our journalists and politicians should be doing. If you have link to a more thorough one I would genuinely like to have a look.
What it illustrates, in excellent detail, is the nature of the EU forcing a country to introduce laws that reduce worker's rights. It shows the utterly undemocratic and bullying nature of its law making capabilities. And I might remind you that Hollande pushed this EU demanded law through by invoking a special clause that allowed him to do so by BYPASSING PARLIAMENT. How is this not ringing alarm bells about the EU's interference with and overriding of the genuine democratic process? Seems a strange thing to become an apologist for.
I've no idea what you mean by 'the left are coming round to it', violent civil unrest is not a sign of that!
It also shows that the idea that the EU is going to save us from or provide us with a barrier to the rampant neoliberalism of our current government is an absolute myth. One that seems to be a cornerstone for many left leaning Remainers views.
You talk of Remainers demanding evidence, where is your evidence for me that the EU won't be pushing through more neoliberal enforced laws that increase the grip of Big Finance and Business on our lives? And while we're at it, why were these benign benefactors of ours negotiating TTIP in such secret?
Is everything completely black and white in your book, Remain - good, Leave - bad? Don't you think we should all do what we can to really investigate the EU, how it works and who's really pulling the strings?
As always, I would ask you or any other remainer to explain to me how voting for a status quo of Dave, George et al was going to improve on the years of austerity that have seen our public services slashed, the selling off of public assets, the demise and increasing privatisation of the NHS, drastic reduction in benefits, food bank use rising exponentially etc etc etc. What was so good about all that? What did the next four years of unchallenged Dave mean for the country? Where is the evidence that we weren't going to continue being increasingly worse off if we stayed in?
As I said, nothing, other than something verging on mass hysteria based on speculation has happened. As a client of mine who is a City Boy (well, man) Remainer said this week 'we're looking at a ten year time frame to know the medium term results of all this'.
Long term economic stability is mathematically impossible anyway, unless we take away the power for private banks to create 'money' out of thin air via debt and take control of the issuing of money. The Icelanders, you know the ones who received even worse economic warnings than us if they went it alone but found the truth to be quite the opposite, have been considering doing that.
Nothing wrong with being positive and seeing if the current political upheavals can produce something of even slightly greater value than the unsatisfactory incumbent. [Post edited 2 Jul 2016 0:22]
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| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 02:09 - Jul 2 with 2196 views | BasingstokeR |
"And while we're at it, why were these benign benefactors of ours negotiating TTIP in such secret"
Hardly any trade deals or similar international negotiations, or peace processes etc. are conducted otherwise are they? TTIP and TPP as examples and more or less every single US deal is done at utmost secrecy down to US govt policy. Do you know of any that have been publicised openly or broadcast? |  | | |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 04:33 - Jul 2 with 2174 views | timcocking |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 00:16 - Jul 2 by 1BobbyHazell |
It isn't an anti-EU site, it is a corporate lobbyist watchdog site. Doing the sort of research and providing the 'hidden behind the scenes' information that our journalists and politicians should be doing. If you have link to a more thorough one I would genuinely like to have a look.
What it illustrates, in excellent detail, is the nature of the EU forcing a country to introduce laws that reduce worker's rights. It shows the utterly undemocratic and bullying nature of its law making capabilities. And I might remind you that Hollande pushed this EU demanded law through by invoking a special clause that allowed him to do so by BYPASSING PARLIAMENT. How is this not ringing alarm bells about the EU's interference with and overriding of the genuine democratic process? Seems a strange thing to become an apologist for.
I've no idea what you mean by 'the left are coming round to it', violent civil unrest is not a sign of that!
It also shows that the idea that the EU is going to save us from or provide us with a barrier to the rampant neoliberalism of our current government is an absolute myth. One that seems to be a cornerstone for many left leaning Remainers views.
You talk of Remainers demanding evidence, where is your evidence for me that the EU won't be pushing through more neoliberal enforced laws that increase the grip of Big Finance and Business on our lives? And while we're at it, why were these benign benefactors of ours negotiating TTIP in such secret?
Is everything completely black and white in your book, Remain - good, Leave - bad? Don't you think we should all do what we can to really investigate the EU, how it works and who's really pulling the strings?
As always, I would ask you or any other remainer to explain to me how voting for a status quo of Dave, George et al was going to improve on the years of austerity that have seen our public services slashed, the selling off of public assets, the demise and increasing privatisation of the NHS, drastic reduction in benefits, food bank use rising exponentially etc etc etc. What was so good about all that? What did the next four years of unchallenged Dave mean for the country? Where is the evidence that we weren't going to continue being increasingly worse off if we stayed in?
As I said, nothing, other than something verging on mass hysteria based on speculation has happened. As a client of mine who is a City Boy (well, man) Remainer said this week 'we're looking at a ten year time frame to know the medium term results of all this'.
Long term economic stability is mathematically impossible anyway, unless we take away the power for private banks to create 'money' out of thin air via debt and take control of the issuing of money. The Icelanders, you know the ones who received even worse economic warnings than us if they went it alone but found the truth to be quite the opposite, have been considering doing that.
Nothing wrong with being positive and seeing if the current political upheavals can produce something of even slightly greater value than the unsatisfactory incumbent. [Post edited 2 Jul 2016 0:22]
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Right or wrong, now that's a bloody good post. |  | | |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 06:51 - Jul 2 with 2159 views | E17hoop |
Thanks for putting this together. There are a lot of points in that deserve amplification to a wider audience. However, I disagree that exiting the EU will be the catalyst to the change that you seek.
From a purely economic perspective, I see the benefit of EU funding on a daily basis through grants for business and economic development. The exit will cease this funding with no guarantee from the UK govt as to how this will be replaced. For example, the NFU have already started lobbying for a replacement of the CAP which provides up to 50% of some farmers' income. The average £17500 subsidy which farmers receive annually will need to be replaced if the domestic agriculture industry is to be maintained at current levels, notwithstanding finance to support growth. This is where the irony in the number of farmers voting leave, against the NFU position was such a surprise. There have been no guarantees, commitments or even plans from the leave campaign about how farmers will be funded in the future and I feel it's reasonable to ask how this funding might look before believing in the leave project.
Staying with the farming industry, the proportion of EU workers provided employment on farms, especially during picking seasons, is high. This seasonal, transient labour force are likely to be restricted with a leave programme. The debate over freedom of movement aside for a moment, if the supply of a workforce is limited the cost of that workforce will rise, leading to additional costs to the farmer. The UK domestic agricultural workforce has been shrinking and evidence has suggested that the population do not want to work in this industry. I can't reconcile how potentially reducing the workforce through leaving will be a benefit.
There is only one state which has limits to the freedom of movement within the EU and that is Liechtenstein, owing to its unique location, size and size of its population. It is a belief, not a fact, that the EU will want to allow us to limit the movement of people and still allow free access to the EEEA. The geography of the UK as an island is a unique factor in our attitudes to free movement and the article you link to is interesting in terms of the reaction by Hollands to the impact of Schengen. The UK isn't and wouldn't ever join the Schengen area and so to conflate the French decision with the potential actions by a UK government is wrong.
I am acutely aware of the impact of austerity. Working in local government I am in an organisation which has taken over 50% of its budget away in the last 6 years and has to take out even more in the next 4 years, whilst still delivering services to a more demanding community. We won't be able to continue deliver services and have relied on EU channels to access funding to continue improvements to the locality. This funding will stop and the likelihood of this being replaced is even less unlikely than the farming industry. The EU provided, financially at least, a lifeline to maintain some form of funding so that the civic and social contract could be maintained. This lifeline has now been cut and the impact on local communities will be devastating; the recession I believe we are about to get, tied with devastation to public services on a 1980s level is going to be traumatic and very painful.
You ask why I see things in black and white - I truly don't. But we were asked to make a binary decision and many remainers belief rests on a different side to yours. It's not unreasonable to ask to see more shades of grey of diect benefit to the UK to convince people why a leave decision will be positive. Finding negatives of staying in other states, with different membership, within a different context, isn't the same as detailing agreed and planned actions which will lead to positives for the UK. | |
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