| Christmas Carnage? 13:11 - Dec 18 with 34787 views | Sadoldgit |
Infection rates are generally rising fast despite the tier systems so you can imagine the spike after the free for all Christmas period. Johnson obviously doesn’t want to be seen as a Grinch but by not closing down Christmas there will be a lot fewer people enjoying it with their loved ones next year.
We are battening down the hatches this Christmas. I just hope that people are sensible and do the same. Sadly though I think people will just go for it and be damned. |  | | |  |
| Christmas Carnage? on 17:29 - Jan 27 with 1314 views | kernow |
Maybe Britain has a much greater per capita number of butt heads than Japan. |  | | |
| Christmas Carnage? on 17:32 - Jan 27 with 1309 views | dirk_doone |
Beware the Ides of March:
March 11: Deputy Chief Medical Officer Jenny Harries insisted the U.K. government was “following the science” by not banning mass gatherings. She also said wearing a face mask is “usually quite a bad idea” and “doesn’t help.”
March 13: The Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies (SAGE) gave its unanimous verdict opposing “heavy suppression” of the virus, warning it would be counter-productive and cause a second peak. It also expressed its skepticism about the merit of school closures. Chief Scientific Adviser Patrick Vallance told the BBC the government’s “aim” was to “build up some kind of herd immunity.”
March 26: Harries said testing and contact tracing was no longer an “appropriate mechanism as we go forward,” arguing that the World Health Organization’s call to “test, test, test” was aimed at less-developed nations. [Post edited 27 Jan 2021 17:34]
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| Christmas Carnage? on 17:39 - Jan 27 with 1291 views | Saintsforeverj |
| Christmas Carnage? on 17:32 - Jan 27 by dirk_doone |
Beware the Ides of March:
March 11: Deputy Chief Medical Officer Jenny Harries insisted the U.K. government was “following the science” by not banning mass gatherings. She also said wearing a face mask is “usually quite a bad idea” and “doesn’t help.”
March 13: The Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies (SAGE) gave its unanimous verdict opposing “heavy suppression” of the virus, warning it would be counter-productive and cause a second peak. It also expressed its skepticism about the merit of school closures. Chief Scientific Adviser Patrick Vallance told the BBC the government’s “aim” was to “build up some kind of herd immunity.”
March 26: Harries said testing and contact tracing was no longer an “appropriate mechanism as we go forward,” arguing that the World Health Organization’s call to “test, test, test” was aimed at less-developed nations. [Post edited 27 Jan 2021 17:34]
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Oh so the advice given to the government by the scientists has changed over time? | |
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| Christmas Carnage? on 18:32 - Jan 27 with 1264 views | Bicester_North |
| Christmas Carnage? on 17:29 - Jan 27 by kernow |
Maybe Britain has a much greater per capita number of butt heads than Japan. |
I might be wrong but I don’t think illegal raves are very popular in Japan
Over here there’s f*cking loads, plus the lock ins with the curtains drawn, kitchen seshes, crack dens.
I honestly thing some middle class rural county dwellers haven’t got the foggiest what goes on in our big cities. [Post edited 27 Jan 2021 18:33]
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| Christmas Carnage? on 18:34 - Jan 27 with 1261 views | Bicester_North |
| Christmas Carnage? on 16:04 - Jan 27 by DorsetIan |
Of course not, and that is obviously not what I am saying.
But public health outcomes are generally the responsibility of policy makers not the public.
Who gets the credit or blame if crime goes down or up nationally. The home secretary or the criminals?
Who got the blame for increased immigration - the EU/govt or the immigrants?
It's part of the government's job to know that there will be x number of idiots out there and to make sure that they don't f*ck it up for the rest of us. |
How would a government determine the number of idiots exactly?
And it wasn’t “obviously” not what you were saying, as you said
“Governments will always try to deflect the blame onto others when the buck should always stop with them”
You needed to be a bit clearer [Post edited 27 Jan 2021 18:39]
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| Christmas Carnage? on 19:13 - Jan 27 with 1232 views | kernow |
| Christmas Carnage? on 18:32 - Jan 27 by Bicester_North |
I might be wrong but I don’t think illegal raves are very popular in Japan
Over here there’s f*cking loads, plus the lock ins with the curtains drawn, kitchen seshes, crack dens.
I honestly thing some middle class rural county dwellers haven’t got the foggiest what goes on in our big cities. [Post edited 27 Jan 2021 18:33]
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As a time served, urban urchin, turned county dweller, I can confirm you' re absolutely correct. [Post edited 27 Jan 2021 19:15]
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| Christmas Carnage? on 19:25 - Jan 27 with 1219 views | DorsetIan |
| Christmas Carnage? on 18:34 - Jan 27 by Bicester_North |
How would a government determine the number of idiots exactly?
And it wasn’t “obviously” not what you were saying, as you said
“Governments will always try to deflect the blame onto others when the buck should always stop with them”
You needed to be a bit clearer [Post edited 27 Jan 2021 18:39]
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I think you understand very well the point I am making but you prefer to mischaracterise it as something else. (This was always TCM's favourite gambit). | |
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| Christmas Carnage? on 19:33 - Jan 27 with 1210 views | Bicester_North |
| Christmas Carnage? on 17:07 - Jan 27 by saint22 |
They aren't the sole reasons though are they?
Always worn masks plus dont have a ship of fools leading them blindly from one incompetency to the next |
The sort of people who can’t figure out how to cancel their Sky subscription? | |
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| Christmas Carnage? on 19:37 - Jan 27 with 1208 views | Bicester_North |
| Christmas Carnage? on 19:25 - Jan 27 by DorsetIan |
I think you understand very well the point I am making but you prefer to mischaracterise it as something else. (This was always TCM's favourite gambit). |
So, the way to make sure those idiots don’t f*ck it up for the rest of us would be to employ a lot more police and give them extra powers to search, spy and strike fear into areas where they think gatherings might occur. Or maybe get the army involved to do this.
That would go down well with everyone | |
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| Christmas Carnage? on 19:45 - Jan 27 with 1191 views | DorsetIan |
| Christmas Carnage? on 19:37 - Jan 27 by Bicester_North |
So, the way to make sure those idiots don’t f*ck it up for the rest of us would be to employ a lot more police and give them extra powers to search, spy and strike fear into areas where they think gatherings might occur. Or maybe get the army involved to do this.
That would go down well with everyone |
Forget it. You stick to you crackheads and lock-ins theory. If you think that can account for a 20x difference in deaths, you obviously know more about comparative urban demographics than most of us.
Out of interest, what's the extent of the kitchen sesh culture in South Korea these days? | |
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| Christmas Carnage? on 19:46 - Jan 27 with 1192 views | kernow |
| Christmas Carnage? on 19:37 - Jan 27 by Bicester_North |
So, the way to make sure those idiots don’t f*ck it up for the rest of us would be to employ a lot more police and give them extra powers to search, spy and strike fear into areas where they think gatherings might occur. Or maybe get the army involved to do this.
That would go down well with everyone |
Recruiting in 20,000 more plods is probably the first step.
Raussing the troops out of their barracks is possibly the last resort. [Post edited 27 Jan 2021 19:47]
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| Christmas Carnage? on 19:50 - Jan 27 with 1183 views | Bicester_North |
| Christmas Carnage? on 19:45 - Jan 27 by DorsetIan |
Forget it. You stick to you crackheads and lock-ins theory. If you think that can account for a 20x difference in deaths, you obviously know more about comparative urban demographics than most of us.
Out of interest, what's the extent of the kitchen sesh culture in South Korea these days? |
I must’ve misunderstood then, how did you mean the government should identify the number of idiots and stop them messing it up for the rest of us? | |
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| Christmas Carnage? on 19:53 - Jan 27 with 1176 views | Bicester_North |
| Christmas Carnage? on 19:46 - Jan 27 by kernow |
Recruiting in 20,000 more plods is probably the first step.
Raussing the troops out of their barracks is possibly the last resort. [Post edited 27 Jan 2021 19:47]
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What we are lacking is Windsor Davies/ Battery Sargeant Major Williams to patrol the streets and put the fear of God into them | |
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| Christmas Carnage? on 20:21 - Jan 27 with 1158 views | DorsetIan |
| Christmas Carnage? on 19:50 - Jan 27 by Bicester_North |
I must’ve misunderstood then, how did you mean the government should identify the number of idiots and stop them messing it up for the rest of us? |
'It's part of the government's job to know that there will be x number of idiots out there and to make sure that they don't f*ck it up for the rest of us.'
Part of the government's job, not mine. Unlike you, I am not an expert in this area. | |
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| Christmas Carnage? on 20:30 - Jan 27 with 1149 views | Bicester_North |
| Christmas Carnage? on 20:21 - Jan 27 by DorsetIan |
'It's part of the government's job to know that there will be x number of idiots out there and to make sure that they don't f*ck it up for the rest of us.'
Part of the government's job, not mine. Unlike you, I am not an expert in this area. |
In the little world inside your head it seems anything is possible. Including Mystic Meg style abilities to predict what people will do, when and where. | |
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| Christmas Carnage? on 20:37 - Jan 27 with 1135 views | DorsetIan |
| Christmas Carnage? on 20:30 - Jan 27 by Bicester_North |
In the little world inside your head it seems anything is possible. Including Mystic Meg style abilities to predict what people will do, when and where. |
Your lack of knowledge and imagination in this area is not really my problem. | |
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| Christmas Carnage? on 07:56 - Jan 28 with 1068 views | Berber |
| Christmas Carnage? on 20:21 - Jan 27 by DorsetIan |
'It's part of the government's job to know that there will be x number of idiots out there and to make sure that they don't f*ck it up for the rest of us.'
Part of the government's job, not mine. Unlike you, I am not an expert in this area. |
That makes it sound like you think there should be an authoritarian state where every deviancy is known and can be acted upon by the government. Surely not? How else can the government know who the idiots are throughout the kingdom? |  |
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| Christmas Carnage? on 09:49 - Jan 28 with 1037 views | dirk_doone |
| Christmas Carnage? on 07:56 - Jan 28 by Berber |
That makes it sound like you think there should be an authoritarian state where every deviancy is known and can be acted upon by the government. Surely not? How else can the government know who the idiots are throughout the kingdom? |
If they counted the number in the government, they could get a rough idea of the percentage in the general population:
https://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/19021933.rees-moggs-happy-fish-comments-battere | |
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| Christmas Carnage? on 10:16 - Jan 28 with 1032 views | DorsetIan |
| Christmas Carnage? on 07:56 - Jan 28 by Berber |
That makes it sound like you think there should be an authoritarian state where every deviancy is known and can be acted upon by the government. Surely not? How else can the government know who the idiots are throughout the kingdom? |
That is not the point I am making.
What I am suggesting is that simply pointing out that there are irresponsible idiots in the country does not let the government off responsibility for the impact of the pandemic in the UK.
If the writers on TUI know that there are idiots out there then the government should know that too, and they should be expected to feed that into their strategy, especially if it's likely that the actions of the idiots make it unsafe for the rest of us.
I am not suggesting that this is easy. But it is still their responsibility and it comes down to policing and enforcement, yes (and there are more ways to police than just an 'authoritarian state'), but also the messaging and also the simplicity and logic of the rules themselves.
And if people think that countries like Germany or Japan are more compliant, then doesn't that just mean that we might to try harder here. Again, if it's so obvious, then the government should have factored that in.
An all this is to assume that the massive death numbers are mainly down to idiots, and there is only people's prejudice (or wish to defend the government) that that is the case. | |
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| Christmas Carnage? on 10:47 - Jan 28 with 1019 views | Bazza |
| Christmas Carnage? on 10:16 - Jan 28 by DorsetIan |
That is not the point I am making.
What I am suggesting is that simply pointing out that there are irresponsible idiots in the country does not let the government off responsibility for the impact of the pandemic in the UK.
If the writers on TUI know that there are idiots out there then the government should know that too, and they should be expected to feed that into their strategy, especially if it's likely that the actions of the idiots make it unsafe for the rest of us.
I am not suggesting that this is easy. But it is still their responsibility and it comes down to policing and enforcement, yes (and there are more ways to police than just an 'authoritarian state'), but also the messaging and also the simplicity and logic of the rules themselves.
And if people think that countries like Germany or Japan are more compliant, then doesn't that just mean that we might to try harder here. Again, if it's so obvious, then the government should have factored that in.
An all this is to assume that the massive death numbers are mainly down to idiots, and there is only people's prejudice (or wish to defend the government) that that is the case. |
Come on Ian, bad behaviour is frequently unpredictable even yours. Someone like economists will take money to make predictions but that is just what they are, intelligent guesses at best. | | | |
| Christmas Carnage? on 11:07 - Jan 28 with 1007 views | DorsetIan |
| Christmas Carnage? on 10:47 - Jan 28 by Bazza |
Come on Ian, bad behaviour is frequently unpredictable even yours. Someone like economists will take money to make predictions but that is just what they are, intelligent guesses at best. |
Google 'how predictable is human behaviour'. First link suggests 93% predictable.
Either way, the logistics experts, social psychologists, behavioural scientists, economists and criminologists know much more that you would give them credit for.
And thankfully so - we would really be in the sh!t if the world was a 'random' as you imagine. | |
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| Christmas Carnage? on 11:07 - Jan 28 with 1006 views | Berber |
| Christmas Carnage? on 17:29 - Jan 27 by kernow |
Maybe Britain has a much greater per capita number of butt heads than Japan. |
Culturally, Japanese are much more aware of others in society, having lived with congested conurbations and small living spaces for a very long time. They have been using face masks for decades as an anti pollution measure, so their continued use during the pandemic was readily accepted. They have their share of criminals and numbskulls too, but the societal norm is to make people aware constantly if they are behaving deviantly, and also, not to deviate yourself. I'd say they have had a better run at it than we have. | |
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| Christmas Carnage? on 09:39 - Jan 29 with 917 views | Berber |
 nice one. | |
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| Christmas Carnage? on 09:57 - Jan 29 with 905 views | Berber |
| Christmas Carnage? on 10:16 - Jan 28 by DorsetIan |
That is not the point I am making.
What I am suggesting is that simply pointing out that there are irresponsible idiots in the country does not let the government off responsibility for the impact of the pandemic in the UK.
If the writers on TUI know that there are idiots out there then the government should know that too, and they should be expected to feed that into their strategy, especially if it's likely that the actions of the idiots make it unsafe for the rest of us.
I am not suggesting that this is easy. But it is still their responsibility and it comes down to policing and enforcement, yes (and there are more ways to police than just an 'authoritarian state'), but also the messaging and also the simplicity and logic of the rules themselves.
And if people think that countries like Germany or Japan are more compliant, then doesn't that just mean that we might to try harder here. Again, if it's so obvious, then the government should have factored that in.
An all this is to assume that the massive death numbers are mainly down to idiots, and there is only people's prejudice (or wish to defend the government) that that is the case. |
Early on in the pandemic, it was reported that the plans would succeed if only about 80% of the population adhered to the rules. The problem that we have is not the (say) 20% idiots who never stick to the rules its them plus the other 80% who break the rules a little bit. If the rest of us break the rules only 1% each week, that is 500,000 breaches spread across the whole nation every week. Cases have been running at about 1% of the population, so that COULD equate to orders of magnitude 5,000 additional cases every week, by people who will probably not think they have got it because they "always" stick to the rules.
I don't think the any government could do any better on matters like this. Timing of decisions, yes, having ministers and secretaries of state that deserve a punch in the face, yes. After a good start, the German government now has accountability for 50,000 deaths, nearly all of which are from the second wave, funnily enough, about the same as our second wave numbers. no-one in Europe or N America are doing OK. | |
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