| Christmas Carnage? 13:11 - Dec 18 with 34786 views | Sadoldgit |
Infection rates are generally rising fast despite the tier systems so you can imagine the spike after the free for all Christmas period. Johnson obviously doesn’t want to be seen as a Grinch but by not closing down Christmas there will be a lot fewer people enjoying it with their loved ones next year.
We are battening down the hatches this Christmas. I just hope that people are sensible and do the same. Sadly though I think people will just go for it and be damned. |  | | |  |
| Christmas Carnage? on 12:44 - Jan 27 with 1077 views | DorsetIan |
| Christmas Carnage? on 12:23 - Jan 27 by Saintsforeverj |
The deaths are a tragedy but who knows what the reasons are? Interestingly, other countries have recorded more infections, but less deaths. So once someone gets infected here, they are more likely to die here than in 10 different countries. Is it that they receive better treatment in those other countries? Not likely. Or are we more unhealthy? It is a fact that we are the 3rd most obese nation in the world. Could that be a factor? We are one of the most densely populated countries. I don't know but an investigation needs to be done before we say that the government's decisions only, have caused the huge death rate. [Post edited 27 Jan 2021 12:26]
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But that's where the recent part of the thread started, the govt saying now is not the time to learn lessons. It should be the other way around - little point learning lessons after the deaths have occurred. Or do we want to just keep making the same mistakes by accident?
And until we know differently - especially if they are refusing the investigation - I think it's perfectly reasonable to conclude that something has gone wrong in the UK and that the govt has to take responsibility for that. |  |
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| Christmas Carnage? on 12:54 - Jan 27 with 1070 views | Bicester_North |
| Christmas Carnage? on 12:44 - Jan 27 by DorsetIan |
But that's where the recent part of the thread started, the govt saying now is not the time to learn lessons. It should be the other way around - little point learning lessons after the deaths have occurred. Or do we want to just keep making the same mistakes by accident?
And until we know differently - especially if they are refusing the investigation - I think it's perfectly reasonable to conclude that something has gone wrong in the UK and that the govt has to take responsibility for that. |
Scientific advice provided was flawed initially
Densely populated country full of thick selfish tw@ts
Over stretched, over bureaucratic health service
Care homes not nearly well protected enough, early enough
Relatively old population | |
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| Christmas Carnage? on 12:55 - Jan 27 with 1065 views | dirk_doone |
| Christmas Carnage? on 11:12 - Jan 27 by DorsetIan |
The government are saying that now isn't the right time to be reviewing where things went wrong but I am now wondering whether, had they asked that question in early summer they might have learnt a few lessons and avoided (or mitigated better) was has turned out to be a horrendous second wave.
The problem all along has been that (a) Johnson is all about positivity, so he hates delivering bad news and has therefore delayed every important social restriction until his hand has been completely forced and (b) there is a fairly sizeable chunk of the Tory parliamentary party that is ideologically opposed to too many restrictions. We have therefore restricted too late and come out of restrictions too early. |
A couple of the Tory extremists who posted on here were vehemently opposed to lockdown and the wearing of face masks. They also argued that coronavirus wasn't really killing people. As you say, that attitude was shared by some people inside the parliamentary party, especially the ERG group. Boris's problem is that he he doesn't really have any strong views of his own, other than that he wants to be popular, so he tends to vacillate back and forth depending on who he is listening to at the time. |  |
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| Christmas Carnage? on 12:55 - Jan 27 with 1060 views | DorsetIan |
| Christmas Carnage? on 12:23 - Jan 27 by Saintsforeverj |
The deaths are a tragedy but who knows what the reasons are? Interestingly, other countries have recorded more infections, but less deaths. So once someone gets infected here, they are more likely to die here than in 10 different countries. Is it that they receive better treatment in those other countries? Not likely. Or are we more unhealthy? It is a fact that we are the 3rd most obese nation in the world. Could that be a factor? We are one of the most densely populated countries. I don't know but an investigation needs to be done before we say that the government's decisions only, have caused the huge death rate. [Post edited 27 Jan 2021 12:26]
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Just checked out Japan's stats.
Island country; population 126m; higher population density than UK; Tokyo Airport more travellers than Heathrow.
Total deaths: around 5,000.
It's really very difficult to understand how we would have 20x the deaths that Japan has had, especially when our population is just over half of theirs? | |
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| Christmas Carnage? on 13:08 - Jan 27 with 1052 views | Saintsforeverj |
| Christmas Carnage? on 12:55 - Jan 27 by DorsetIan |
Just checked out Japan's stats.
Island country; population 126m; higher population density than UK; Tokyo Airport more travellers than Heathrow.
Total deaths: around 5,000.
It's really very difficult to understand how we would have 20x the deaths that Japan has had, especially when our population is just over half of theirs? |
They are also a lot less obese in Japan and they have the 4th highest life expectancy in the world. They eat a lot more fish and are healthier. Those are reasons. | |
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| Christmas Carnage? on 13:11 - Jan 27 with 1048 views | dirk_doone |
| Christmas Carnage? on 12:55 - Jan 27 by DorsetIan |
Just checked out Japan's stats.
Island country; population 126m; higher population density than UK; Tokyo Airport more travellers than Heathrow.
Total deaths: around 5,000.
It's really very difficult to understand how we would have 20x the deaths that Japan has had, especially when our population is just over half of theirs? |
If population density is the reason than why are there so few deaths in Hong Kong, which has 6,754 people per square kilometer. compared to 278 people per square kilometer in the UK, is a major international hub and is much closer to Wuhan than we are, yet they only have 23 Covid deaths per million as opposed to 1,471 per million in the UK ?
One of the reasons was that they were given clear instructions, they took it seriously from the beginning and everybody wore face masks from the outset. There was no dithering and they didn't have nutcases spreading the message that coronavirus wasn't really killing people and that wearing face masks and lockdown were dangerous. [Post edited 27 Jan 2021 13:11]
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| Christmas Carnage? on 13:13 - Jan 27 with 1045 views | Sadoldgit |
| Christmas Carnage? on 12:55 - Jan 27 by DorsetIan |
Just checked out Japan's stats.
Island country; population 126m; higher population density than UK; Tokyo Airport more travellers than Heathrow.
Total deaths: around 5,000.
It's really very difficult to understand how we would have 20x the deaths that Japan has had, especially when our population is just over half of theirs? |
Apparently our true Covid mortality rate was 100,000 in early January and is now nearer 120,000. It is quite shocking and more and more people are beginning to understand that the people we have given our trust to have let us down badly. Too often crucial decisions have been made too late. When the public enquiry is done I expect it to be quite damning for the government. It is grim to think that it will be a number of weeks before the daily death rates comes down from its current levels. | | | |
| Christmas Carnage? on 13:19 - Jan 27 with 1040 views | Saintsforeverj |
| Christmas Carnage? on 12:55 - Jan 27 by dirk_doone |
A couple of the Tory extremists who posted on here were vehemently opposed to lockdown and the wearing of face masks. They also argued that coronavirus wasn't really killing people. As you say, that attitude was shared by some people inside the parliamentary party, especially the ERG group. Boris's problem is that he he doesn't really have any strong views of his own, other than that he wants to be popular, so he tends to vacillate back and forth depending on who he is listening to at the time. |
One thing I do agree with is that the government should have put a stop to all the rediculous protests against the lockdown, other big gatherings with water cannon and 10 000 pound fines. Just the other day at Marine, police just standing there as fans congregate in their hundreds. They should have been much harsher on the rule breakers and army on the streets, forcing people to stay at home. We have had so many fair weather, pleasure seeking holiday makers and the rest, just doing what they like and this has resulted in the virus spreading as it has been too lax. But that is this country isn't it. We let kids run amok in our schools, we let rule breakers run free, so maybe we are just too soft here from government to all authorities. So from that, yes I would have liked to see Boris take a stronger view and stronger stance. [Post edited 27 Jan 2021 13:29]
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| Christmas Carnage? on 13:36 - Jan 27 with 1023 views | dirk_doone |
| Christmas Carnage? on 13:19 - Jan 27 by Saintsforeverj |
One thing I do agree with is that the government should have put a stop to all the rediculous protests against the lockdown, other big gatherings with water cannon and 10 000 pound fines. Just the other day at Marine, police just standing there as fans congregate in their hundreds. They should have been much harsher on the rule breakers and army on the streets, forcing people to stay at home. We have had so many fair weather, pleasure seeking holiday makers and the rest, just doing what they like and this has resulted in the virus spreading as it has been too lax. But that is this country isn't it. We let kids run amok in our schools, we let rule breakers run free, so maybe we are just too soft here from government to all authorities. So from that, yes I would have liked to see Boris take a stronger view and stronger stance. [Post edited 27 Jan 2021 13:29]
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True. These people are indirectly causing deaths and should be arrested although it is difficult when there are so many of them. Legal action should also be taken against the people spreading dangerous misinformation on the internet as they are also indirectly causing deaths.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11391057/coronavirus-5g-theories-bt-engineers-atta | |
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| Christmas Carnage? on 13:36 - Jan 27 with 1019 views | DorsetIan |
| Christmas Carnage? on 13:08 - Jan 27 by Saintsforeverj |
They are also a lot less obese in Japan and they have the 4th highest life expectancy in the world. They eat a lot more fish and are healthier. Those are reasons. |
Do they live 20x longer and are 20x healthier.
Even if our numbers were only double theirs, you would be hard pressed to associate that increase with health factors alone.
At 20x, the general health of the population ain't going to explain it. | |
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| Christmas Carnage? on 13:40 - Jan 27 with 1017 views | dirk_doone |
| Christmas Carnage? on 13:36 - Jan 27 by DorsetIan |
Do they live 20x longer and are 20x healthier.
Even if our numbers were only double theirs, you would be hard pressed to associate that increase with health factors alone.
At 20x, the general health of the population ain't going to explain it. |
And they're not even eating the happy British fish like we are. But, there again, they probably don't have eccentrics like this governing their country:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jacob-rees-mogg-fish-brexit-b1787 | |
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| Christmas Carnage? on 13:42 - Jan 27 with 1011 views | DorsetIan |
| Christmas Carnage? on 13:19 - Jan 27 by Saintsforeverj |
One thing I do agree with is that the government should have put a stop to all the rediculous protests against the lockdown, other big gatherings with water cannon and 10 000 pound fines. Just the other day at Marine, police just standing there as fans congregate in their hundreds. They should have been much harsher on the rule breakers and army on the streets, forcing people to stay at home. We have had so many fair weather, pleasure seeking holiday makers and the rest, just doing what they like and this has resulted in the virus spreading as it has been too lax. But that is this country isn't it. We let kids run amok in our schools, we let rule breakers run free, so maybe we are just too soft here from government to all authorities. So from that, yes I would have liked to see Boris take a stronger view and stronger stance. [Post edited 27 Jan 2021 13:29]
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Thing is, you are focussing on the people who broke the rules, without knowing whether it was rule breaking that was the problem or the rules themselves.
Most people, I would say, obeyed the rules. But if the rules were wrong in the first place, or introduced too late, or relaxed too soon, then we were still going to be in the sh!t. | |
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| Christmas Carnage? on 13:44 - Jan 27 with 1015 views | Saintsforeverj |
| Christmas Carnage? on 13:36 - Jan 27 by DorsetIan |
Do they live 20x longer and are 20x healthier.
Even if our numbers were only double theirs, you would be hard pressed to associate that increase with health factors alone.
At 20x, the general health of the population ain't going to explain it. |
Who knows, perhaps Japan are an example to be followed in terms of decisions but also how their people behave. I know that your intent is to purely blame the government for absolutely everything. I think it is probably a mixture of lots things. | |
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| Christmas Carnage? on 13:46 - Jan 27 with 1012 views | Bison |
If anyone is comparing the UK to the Japanese or German nations and why they got it so right during the pandemic just look at WW2 and what their respective Governments persuaded them as a nation to do back then. |  |
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| Christmas Carnage? on 13:56 - Jan 27 with 1007 views | Saintsforeverj |
| Christmas Carnage? on 13:42 - Jan 27 by DorsetIan |
Thing is, you are focussing on the people who broke the rules, without knowing whether it was rule breaking that was the problem or the rules themselves.
Most people, I would say, obeyed the rules. But if the rules were wrong in the first place, or introduced too late, or relaxed too soon, then we were still going to be in the sh!t. |
Like I said, I would have liked to have seen stricter enforcement of the rules. Stay at home, keep your distance are clear to me. Obviously not to Marine fans, the numerous people I have seen still visiting their friends, the thousands crowding onto beaches ( the rules were still to keep 2 metres a part in the summer!) or those abusing shop staff when they ask them to wear a mask. The rules are clear to me but they haven't been enforced strongly enough in my view. Stay 2 metres apart, that was in the instruction in the summer, then thousands crowd onto a beach. Who's fault is that? [Post edited 27 Jan 2021 13:58]
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| Christmas Carnage? on 14:01 - Jan 27 with 996 views | DorsetIan |
| Christmas Carnage? on 13:44 - Jan 27 by Saintsforeverj |
Who knows, perhaps Japan are an example to be followed in terms of decisions but also how their people behave. I know that your intent is to purely blame the government for absolutely everything. I think it is probably a mixture of lots things. |
You assume that's my intent. It's not. My position is this:
Our numbers are so dire that there is a prima facie case that we, as a country have f*cked up.
We should be investigating to find out why but our government is refusing that.
Until I have evidence to the contrary I will assume that the government has f*cked up.
Johnson's personality would explain why that might be the case.
Anyone pointing at rule-breakers as the reason for the problem is, in my opinion, trying to pin the blame on someone other than the govt when there is currently no evidence (because there hasn't been an investigation) that rule breaking, rather than crap administration is the problem.
Governments will always try to deflect the blame onto others when the buck should always stop with them. | |
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| Christmas Carnage? on 14:10 - Jan 27 with 991 views | Saintsforeverj |
| Christmas Carnage? on 14:01 - Jan 27 by DorsetIan |
You assume that's my intent. It's not. My position is this:
Our numbers are so dire that there is a prima facie case that we, as a country have f*cked up.
We should be investigating to find out why but our government is refusing that.
Until I have evidence to the contrary I will assume that the government has f*cked up.
Johnson's personality would explain why that might be the case.
Anyone pointing at rule-breakers as the reason for the problem is, in my opinion, trying to pin the blame on someone other than the govt when there is currently no evidence (because there hasn't been an investigation) that rule breaking, rather than crap administration is the problem.
Governments will always try to deflect the blame onto others when the buck should always stop with them. |
So the government says stay at home, keep 2 metres a part and then hundreds of Marine fans, don't stay at home and congregate in their hundreds to wave in a coach. That's the government's fault as the buck stops with them? Stay at home wasn't clear enough? I know they don't speak proper English up there but come on the advice was clear enough! It's a mixture of lots of things isn't it. The government has made mistakes, as have many others in the world, they have also done good things like the vaccine rollout and some people in this country also didnt follow the rules. We are an obese nation, lots of elderly people. These are all possible reasons as well as government decisions. [Post edited 27 Jan 2021 14:19]
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| Christmas Carnage? on 14:45 - Jan 27 with 976 views | Sadoldgit |
| Christmas Carnage? on 14:01 - Jan 27 by DorsetIan |
You assume that's my intent. It's not. My position is this:
Our numbers are so dire that there is a prima facie case that we, as a country have f*cked up.
We should be investigating to find out why but our government is refusing that.
Until I have evidence to the contrary I will assume that the government has f*cked up.
Johnson's personality would explain why that might be the case.
Anyone pointing at rule-breakers as the reason for the problem is, in my opinion, trying to pin the blame on someone other than the govt when there is currently no evidence (because there hasn't been an investigation) that rule breaking, rather than crap administration is the problem.
Governments will always try to deflect the blame onto others when the buck should always stop with them. |
There was an interesting article about Johnson a couple of months ago which explains perfectly why we are where we are. He needs to be liked so puts off making difficult decisions that will make him unpopular until he really has no other choice. This also means that his options are also limited by that stage and he has fewer options. The Cummings debacle is a perfect illustration of this. Johnson should have sorted him out as soon as the rule breaking trip came to light but he let it drag on and on with Cummings doing more and more damage to Johnson’s credibility until he was given no choice but to finally sack him. Lockdowns, border controls, so many things put off that could have kept the mortality rate down if they had been brought in sooner. Yes, they are unpopular and difficult decisions, but they save lives. | | | |
| Christmas Carnage? on 15:03 - Jan 27 with 969 views | Bicester_North |
| Christmas Carnage? on 14:01 - Jan 27 by DorsetIan |
You assume that's my intent. It's not. My position is this:
Our numbers are so dire that there is a prima facie case that we, as a country have f*cked up.
We should be investigating to find out why but our government is refusing that.
Until I have evidence to the contrary I will assume that the government has f*cked up.
Johnson's personality would explain why that might be the case.
Anyone pointing at rule-breakers as the reason for the problem is, in my opinion, trying to pin the blame on someone other than the govt when there is currently no evidence (because there hasn't been an investigation) that rule breaking, rather than crap administration is the problem.
Governments will always try to deflect the blame onto others when the buck should always stop with them. |
A government should take the blame for everything its population do? | |
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| Christmas Carnage? on 15:26 - Jan 27 with 952 views | Saintsforeverj |
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/how-strict-uk-lockdown-europe-060000578.html
This is an interesting article. Belarus has had one of the least strict lockdowns, yet has one of the lowest death rates on the planet. But Belarus has a much smaller population. Sweden has had a light touch lockdown, but has had a high death rate, but less than some countries who have locked down but again they have a small population. Portugal has one of the highest death rates, with less stringent rules until now. It does seem that the stricter the lockown, the less deaths but not necessarily. [Post edited 27 Jan 2021 15:36]
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| Christmas Carnage? on 16:04 - Jan 27 with 922 views | DorsetIan |
| Christmas Carnage? on 15:03 - Jan 27 by Bicester_North |
A government should take the blame for everything its population do? |
Of course not, and that is obviously not what I am saying.
But public health outcomes are generally the responsibility of policy makers not the public.
Who gets the credit or blame if crime goes down or up nationally. The home secretary or the criminals?
Who got the blame for increased immigration - the EU/govt or the immigrants?
It's part of the government's job to know that there will be x number of idiots out there and to make sure that they don't f*ck it up for the rest of us. | |
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| Christmas Carnage? on 16:14 - Jan 27 with 916 views | DellHero_Would |
| Christmas Carnage? on 16:04 - Jan 27 by DorsetIan |
Of course not, and that is obviously not what I am saying.
But public health outcomes are generally the responsibility of policy makers not the public.
Who gets the credit or blame if crime goes down or up nationally. The home secretary or the criminals?
Who got the blame for increased immigration - the EU/govt or the immigrants?
It's part of the government's job to know that there will be x number of idiots out there and to make sure that they don't f*ck it up for the rest of us. |
You’re doing a marvellous job Ian, keep it up 
#postoftheday | |
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| Christmas Carnage? on 16:15 - Jan 27 with 912 views | Bazza |
| Christmas Carnage? on 15:26 - Jan 27 by Saintsforeverj |
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/how-strict-uk-lockdown-europe-060000578.html
This is an interesting article. Belarus has had one of the least strict lockdowns, yet has one of the lowest death rates on the planet. But Belarus has a much smaller population. Sweden has had a light touch lockdown, but has had a high death rate, but less than some countries who have locked down but again they have a small population. Portugal has one of the highest death rates, with less stringent rules until now. It does seem that the stricter the lockown, the less deaths but not necessarily. [Post edited 27 Jan 2021 15:36]
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Clearly it's a very complex issue not just lockdown or its duration but also population density and behaviour.
But when are people, especially political commentators and opposition parties, going to stop stupidly asking for the government plan for the end of the pandemic? Factors change every day. | | | |
| Christmas Carnage? on 16:52 - Jan 27 with 877 views | DorsetIan |
| Christmas Carnage? on 16:14 - Jan 27 by DellHero_Would |
You’re doing a marvellous job Ian, keep it up
#postoftheday |
As are you Dullsville. Imaginative use of emojis with that one. | |
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| Christmas Carnage? on 17:07 - Jan 27 with 864 views | saint22 |
| Christmas Carnage? on 13:08 - Jan 27 by Saintsforeverj |
They are also a lot less obese in Japan and they have the 4th highest life expectancy in the world. They eat a lot more fish and are healthier. Those are reasons. |
They aren't the sole reasons though are they?
Always worn masks plus dont have a ship of fools leading them blindly from one incompetency to the next | | | |
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