| Thatcher dead 12:56 - Apr 8 with 94610 views | six_foot_two |
Skynews are are saying Magaret Thatcher has died of a stroke |  | | |  |
| Thatcher dead on 20:13 - Apr 9 with 2009 views | BklynRanger |
| Thatcher dead on 20:04 - Apr 9 by Gloucs_R |
I give a toss about whet the 35K in tax I paid this year goes. No doubt supporting some work shy family with 5 kids claiming poverty yet still able to afford to smoke, drink and own a mobile phone. Oh how I love the left and socialism.
Under Thatcher, if you worked hard you were rewarded. Yes, I believe in this philosophy. |
Worked hard at what? Strip bare the manufacturing industry and wait for 4 million Alan Sugar's to appear? That's a good plan!
Obviously I'm exaggerating to make a point, Gloucs, but it was just not as simple as working hard - you needed a job to do that and millions didn't have one. Which in turn demands a coherent, planned response - not blind, untested faith in the future benefits of trickle down economics. |  | | |
| Thatcher dead on 20:19 - Apr 9 with 1996 views | wood_hoop |
I also feel many good posts have been made on this topic so far, opinions are I would imagine already set in stone for many and it does seem that those who made a few bob are happy to defend the reputation of Thatcher no matter that many did not and suffered great deprivation due to the policies she followed.
I maybe was one of the unforunate few that lived in London and did not have a council house to 'buy' my vote, wrong age,not in circumstances that were ever likely to push me upthe list, no kids spread around like confetti so a council place was a given and the opportunity to open the treasure trove on offer.
Must have been others like me that made their way through Thatchers reign where it was about keeping your head above water and the only way was hard work, not enough cash to buy without plunging myself into a debt that scared the life out of me, so for me Thatcher did nothing, I was fortunate enough to be born and bred in London so my life was at least in an area where work was available most of the time, and even if not always well paid, enough to keep off the breadline.
Which it least gave you hope for better things to come in later life, a lot more than the poor buggars thrown on the dole with barely a hope in other parts of the country, and I would be surprised if even among the opinions so divided on here there was any doubt that there were massive divides between various parts of the country in comparison to the south.
I had friends in Liverpool and other parts north of Watford and see first hand the misery being heaped on good people that wanted nothing more than the dignity of being able to work and live a decent life,they did not mass picket or riot but suffered silently for months and months desperetly trying to find a way out of their predicament.
Looking back the thing I felt I learnt most at the time was the diginity of being able to support yourself and your family, I am fortunate that I am now quite a Senior Manager in a strong and viable company and have no fears like many of being made redundant, I am in a position were hiring & firing is very much a part of my working life but even now so many years after the events of the eighties I find myself always taking an extra check when the possibility of getting rid of someone comes up, my decision can be life changing in so many ways and I will never forget the experiences of watching my friends in despair when faced by that ever growing dole queue.
Rejoice no, weep neither, politicians have their agendas for mapping out my life, I have mine, very rarely do they match
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| Thatcher dead on 20:21 - Apr 9 with 1988 views | Gloucs_R |
| Thatcher dead on 20:13 - Apr 9 by BklynRanger |
Worked hard at what? Strip bare the manufacturing industry and wait for 4 million Alan Sugar's to appear? That's a good plan!
Obviously I'm exaggerating to make a point, Gloucs, but it was just not as simple as working hard - you needed a job to do that and millions didn't have one. Which in turn demands a coherent, planned response - not blind, untested faith in the future benefits of trickle down economics. |
But we are in the same climate today, who it's the villan now? |  |
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| Thatcher dead on 20:26 - Apr 9 with 1974 views | ThGrimRanger |
| Thatcher dead on 13:00 - Apr 8 by QPunkR |
I'm sure there'll be people celebrating in certain parts of the country |
This is beginning to feel like the Jimmy Saville escapade.
How long before someone tries to sue her estate or sues the conservative party for electing her.
In the age of the internet, slander and libel laws then vilifying the dead is the new sport with no come back.
Fill yer boots!
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| Thatcher dead on 20:40 - Apr 9 with 1953 views | BklynRanger |
| Thatcher dead on 20:21 - Apr 9 by Gloucs_R |
But we are in the same climate today, who it's the villan now? |
Well that's almost a 'how long's a piece of string' type of question - it depends how far you trace it back and from what perspective.
Cameron is the one driving the bus now obviously, with the idea being that austerity will correct things, though the proof so far seems to be otherwise and many do disagree with that approach.
You could also put blame on Gordon Brown - I still remember vividly seeing a clip where he was trumpeting his govt's 'light touch to the market' as what was creating the financial boom.
Then there's Blair who we all know about and before that Thatcher, who was in power for long enough and confident enough in her own vision and methods (including privatization, deregulation etc) , to shift the center indefinitely a few clicks to the right.
It's a short question with 10 or 12 textbooks worth of answer. | | | |
| Thatcher dead on 20:45 - Apr 9 with 1943 views | Gloucs_R |
| Thatcher dead on 20:40 - Apr 9 by BklynRanger |
Well that's almost a 'how long's a piece of string' type of question - it depends how far you trace it back and from what perspective.
Cameron is the one driving the bus now obviously, with the idea being that austerity will correct things, though the proof so far seems to be otherwise and many do disagree with that approach.
You could also put blame on Gordon Brown - I still remember vividly seeing a clip where he was trumpeting his govt's 'light touch to the market' as what was creating the financial boom.
Then there's Blair who we all know about and before that Thatcher, who was in power for long enough and confident enough in her own vision and methods (including privatization, deregulation etc) , to shift the center indefinitely a few clicks to the right.
It's a short question with 10 or 12 textbooks worth of answer. |
I like you Bklyn!  | |
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| Thatcher dead on 20:46 - Apr 9 with 1939 views | BklynRanger |
Lots of questions thrown up by stats like that, Clive. I'm not saying you should answer these yourself but, for example:
What were the regional variations (and long term effects of those variations)?
How many of those newer industries she introduced were foreign rather than British owned companies which then closed or left never to be replaced - ultimately leading to that 2010 figure?
The changes in manufacturing are a huge topic on their own certainly. | | | |
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| Thatcher dead on 20:48 - Apr 9 with 1935 views | FDC |
| Thatcher dead on 20:21 - Apr 9 by Gloucs_R |
But we are in the same climate today, who it's the villan now? |
Indeed. We live in a post work economy with very few genuinely value producing jobs. Keynes thought we'd all be working 15 hour weeks by now. But we're (the majority of us) instead in precarious largely pointless jobs. This is entirely in keeping with the neoliberal project. |  | | |
| Thatcher dead on 20:49 - Apr 9 with 1934 views | FDC |
| Thatcher dead on 19:44 - Apr 9 by stowmarketrange |
Spoken like a true son of Thatcher. Who gives a toss about anyone else,as long as they dont affect me in my scramble for wealth.. |
Innit | | | |
| Thatcher dead on 20:52 - Apr 9 with 1923 views | BklynRanger |
| Thatcher dead on 20:45 - Apr 9 by Gloucs_R |
I like you Bklyn! |
Thanks (I think :) | | | |
| Thatcher dead on 20:52 - Apr 9 with 1922 views | THEBUSH |
Yep, but once she'd closed down the mines, shipyards, the steel industry, car factories and the engineering industry, it was always gonna be hard to stop the associated industries closing down as well
She sold the family silverware and now we have foreign companies running the energy industry, how ironic !! |  | | |
| Thatcher dead on 20:57 - Apr 9 with 1914 views | QPR1882 |
| Thatcher dead on 20:52 - Apr 9 by THEBUSH |
Yep, but once she'd closed down the mines, shipyards, the steel industry, car factories and the engineering industry, it was always gonna be hard to stop the associated industries closing down as well
She sold the family silverware and now we have foreign companies running the energy industry, how ironic !! |
Unfortunately during her leadership the computer came into prominence contributing heavily to unemployment. What took 10 men to do would now take 1 man a screen and keypad.
UNIONS LIKED THAT DIDN'T THEY ?????
And that was Thatchers fault ? |  | | |
| Thatcher dead on 21:02 - Apr 9 with 1900 views | FDC |
| Thatcher dead on 20:57 - Apr 9 by QPR1882 |
Unfortunately during her leadership the computer came into prominence contributing heavily to unemployment. What took 10 men to do would now take 1 man a screen and keypad.
UNIONS LIKED THAT DIDN'T THEY ?????
And that was Thatchers fault ? |
See post above. Automation could of course be liberating and lead to an overall reduction in work, as Keynes believed. But not under the given conditions. | | | |
| Thatcher dead on 21:07 - Apr 9 with 1889 views | TacticalR |
| Thatcher dead on 20:57 - Apr 9 by QPR1882 |
Unfortunately during her leadership the computer came into prominence contributing heavily to unemployment. What took 10 men to do would now take 1 man a screen and keypad.
UNIONS LIKED THAT DIDN'T THEY ?????
And that was Thatchers fault ? |
No, as explained by Oscar Wilde, this is a result of our social system (of which Thatcher was an aggressive representative). Something which could benefit everybody becomes a curse:
'This, however, is, of course, the result of our property system and our system of competition. One man owns a machine which does the work of five hundred men. Five hundred men are, in consequence, thrown out of employment, and, having no work to do, become hungry and take to thieving. The one man secures the produce of the machine and keeps it, and has five hundred times as much as he should have, and probably, which is of much more importance, a great deal more than he really wants. Were that machine the property of all, every one would benefit by it. It would be an immense advantage to the community. All unintellectual labour, all monotonous, dull labour, all labour that deals with dreadful things, and involves unpleasant conditions, must be done by machinery. Machinery must work for us in coal mines, and do all sanitary services, and be the stoker of steamers, and clean the streets, and run messages on wet days, and do anything that is tedious or distressing. At present machinery competes against man. Under proper conditions machinery will serve man.' |  |
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| Thatcher dead on 21:11 - Apr 9 with 1879 views | QPR1882 |
| Thatcher dead on 21:02 - Apr 9 by FDC |
See post above. Automation could of course be liberating and lead to an overall reduction in work, as Keynes believed. But not under the given conditions. |
Guess you never ever worked or knew any one that worked at British Leyland by the Iron Bridge on the Uxbridge rd then, i started there in 1978 and left 6 weeks later when people were laid off for the above reasons. | | | |
| Thatcher dead on 21:19 - Apr 9 with 1857 views | FDC |
| Thatcher dead on 21:11 - Apr 9 by QPR1882 |
Guess you never ever worked or knew any one that worked at British Leyland by the Iron Bridge on the Uxbridge rd then, i started there in 1978 and left 6 weeks later when people were laid off for the above reasons. |
I think we may have crossed wires?
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| Thatcher dead on 21:22 - Apr 9 with 1846 views | MkPaul |
Can someone explain why we should pay excessive taxes to support loss making industries just so someone has a job? That's like me running a business that's losing a fortune but keeping it open just so someone is employed regardless of if I can afford it. Also very easy to ignore all the years prior in the 70's where the workers would go on strike at the drop of a hat ... Obviously that didn't help the losses but lets not get into that eh because it couldn't be that the workers and unions had any input into the direction that needed to be taken |  | | |
| Thatcher dead on 21:24 - Apr 9 with 2085 views | BklynRanger |
"I think a lot of the hate for Thatcher is really anger at the loss of the old industrial way of life, which was inevitable whether Thatcher was in power or not. It's much easier to blame a person and think that they are evil than accept that it's an natural change in the economy of a country and there was nothing you could do about it. "
I'd say that's partially true, but only partially. It's undoubtedly true that a lot of industry was at a point where it was going to have to change or get murdered bu foreign competition. The problem is that Thatcher's policies wanted to amputate every ailing part of the system rather than help it to modify where possible. And that had a huge impact on communities, the tax base, future GDP, everything. It seemed to be all about centralizing wealth, power and pushing those industries that they believed in and, ironically, could have more control over. So, yes, the climate was changing and pain was coming, but policy decisions were made that made things a lot worse than they ever needed to be.
I was 9 when my dad was made redundant, and I have wrestled with this idea that its easier to blame Thatcher than accept what was going on, but the more I've looked into it the more I find the above paragraph to be the case. In March '81 there was a special session held in the House of Commons which foretold how some of these policy decisions would go. Here's just a snippet of the huge transcript:
"J. D. Concannon (Mansfield): In the Appropriation order debate last Monday I gave specific details of factory closures and redundancies to demonstrate the failure of the Government to bring anything other than industrial stagnation to Northern Ireland. I shall not waste the time of the House by repeating those figures and names, which are shown in the Official Report.
The effect of the Government's patent failure to develop a coherent economic approach to Northern Ireland will be further compounded by the budgetary measures announced last week for the whole of the United Kingdom. From the bastion of Tory support has come the most severe criticism. The CBI of Northern Ireland said of the Budget: "The proposals will probably result in higher unemployment because it is a deflationary Budget. Industry was already having to operate on a very tight budget and the higher transport costs could easily push them over the edge." It was also forcefully argued that the whole deflationary effect of the Budget would probably offset the benefits of lower interest charges for most of industry." | | | |
| Thatcher dead on 21:29 - Apr 9 with 2073 views | MkPaul |
| Thatcher dead on 21:24 - Apr 9 by BklynRanger |
"I think a lot of the hate for Thatcher is really anger at the loss of the old industrial way of life, which was inevitable whether Thatcher was in power or not. It's much easier to blame a person and think that they are evil than accept that it's an natural change in the economy of a country and there was nothing you could do about it. "
I'd say that's partially true, but only partially. It's undoubtedly true that a lot of industry was at a point where it was going to have to change or get murdered bu foreign competition. The problem is that Thatcher's policies wanted to amputate every ailing part of the system rather than help it to modify where possible. And that had a huge impact on communities, the tax base, future GDP, everything. It seemed to be all about centralizing wealth, power and pushing those industries that they believed in and, ironically, could have more control over. So, yes, the climate was changing and pain was coming, but policy decisions were made that made things a lot worse than they ever needed to be.
I was 9 when my dad was made redundant, and I have wrestled with this idea that its easier to blame Thatcher than accept what was going on, but the more I've looked into it the more I find the above paragraph to be the case. In March '81 there was a special session held in the House of Commons which foretold how some of these policy decisions would go. Here's just a snippet of the huge transcript:
"J. D. Concannon (Mansfield): In the Appropriation order debate last Monday I gave specific details of factory closures and redundancies to demonstrate the failure of the Government to bring anything other than industrial stagnation to Northern Ireland. I shall not waste the time of the House by repeating those figures and names, which are shown in the Official Report.
The effect of the Government's patent failure to develop a coherent economic approach to Northern Ireland will be further compounded by the budgetary measures announced last week for the whole of the United Kingdom. From the bastion of Tory support has come the most severe criticism. The CBI of Northern Ireland said of the Budget: "The proposals will probably result in higher unemployment because it is a deflationary Budget. Industry was already having to operate on a very tight budget and the higher transport costs could easily push them over the edge." It was also forcefully argued that the whole deflationary effect of the Budget would probably offset the benefits of lower interest charges for most of industry." |
Have you ever tried to negotiate with a union when trying to reshape an ailing business? I have and I can tell you from my dealings with unite they mostly do not want change or even to accept that existing staff are ring fenced but new starters have new t's&c's to make the business effective, therefore making 100's redundant. And that's in 2000's not the 1970's when I would assume it was even worse | | | |
| Thatcher dead on 21:36 - Apr 9 with 2052 views | BklynRanger |
| Thatcher dead on 21:29 - Apr 9 by MkPaul |
Have you ever tried to negotiate with a union when trying to reshape an ailing business? I have and I can tell you from my dealings with unite they mostly do not want change or even to accept that existing staff are ring fenced but new starters have new t's&c's to make the business effective, therefore making 100's redundant. And that's in 2000's not the 1970's when I would assume it was even worse |
There's no denying that union inflexibility was and is a factor | | | |
| Thatcher dead on 22:42 - Apr 9 with 1983 views | Stanisgod |
| Thatcher dead on 21:29 - Apr 9 by MkPaul |
Have you ever tried to negotiate with a union when trying to reshape an ailing business? I have and I can tell you from my dealings with unite they mostly do not want change or even to accept that existing staff are ring fenced but new starters have new t's&c's to make the business effective, therefore making 100's redundant. And that's in 2000's not the 1970's when I would assume it was even worse |
Yes, I was a shop steward on and off over the years having worked for the same company for 35 years. I've watched a shop floor go from 200 people manufacturing goods to the 19 people that we have now just working in service which we basically are now. We were obviously very powerful when we wanted to be early on but now with just 13 of us in the union still we are now toothless regards wages, but we've still over the years stopped them putting our hours up from 37- and-a-half to 40, which we went on strike for in '78 and won, along with a large pay rise ( which didn't hurt them one bit with a 6 million pound year profit at that time ).
We still have full sick pay for 52 weeks, which they tried to take away about 6 years ago when Yanks took us over, we still have our 3 days extra holiday due to service, which they wanted. The 187 that have gone over the years haven't gone because we fought for what management would consider " luxuries " but because manufacturing was moved to Germany when we algamated with them and it was cheaper to make UK workers redundant than German.
Over the years my job has been saved many times with union backing for variuos reasons, I also get 24 hour free advice on practically any legal matter, cheap car/house insurance, accident claim support, etc.
We've just got the antiquated factory heating system upgraded by refusing to start work until the temparature reached it's required height.
Yes , in the 70s the militants did have too much power and abused it, but in the main union reps like myself always tried to look at both sides, and most times it worked. I'm assuming from a lot of anti-union comments on here that they tar all union members with the same brush or have been lucky enough to never need help from a union, or probably in most cases never been in one.
Unfortunately there are a few on here so blinkered by there Thatcherite views that are earning fantasic salaries ( and good luck to them they've obviously earnt it ), that they still have the I'm all right Jack, f* ck the shop floor peasents attitude that opitomised her reign and that we are suffering for now by work places being ruled by fear again and dark age conditions.
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| It's being so happy that keeps me going. |
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| Thatcher dead on 22:54 - Apr 9 with 1961 views | highlandbill |
Well! She might be dead (I f****** hope she is dead) but she has surely stirred a nest. Great debate all round.For me exquisite to see all her supporters dragging all kinds of nutty arguments out of the bin to defend her. Lads...she was an A***hole. Lets burn her and get on with sorting out fat Dave the latest Tory t*** to F us about. |  |
| At my age I should not be doing this! |
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| Thatcher dead on 22:58 - Apr 9 with 1949 views | BklynRanger |
I'm not talking about formal regulations or even formal influence per se.
It's pretty clear that finance and the service sector was emphasised over manufacturing. The former being fields that she could have access to and some level of informal influence over and the latter often representing the opposite. | | | |
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