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The one thing I am certain of re this vote is that no-one knows for sure what the repercussions economically will be if we pull out. If you listen to the experts it will be better if we stay in, however its all unconvincing. My issue is that after 10 years of Austerity, the services in this country have been cut to the bone, that is services that are needed by us all - not just Immigrants/benefit spongers. We are not in a position to afford the enormous gamble if it all goes t1ts up. I am taking my lead from Ray Winston and gambling responsibly and staying in. If we ever get to situation when everything is adequately funded and horrible 0 hours contracts were abolished ... then maybe it might be worth the risk to pull out. But to do it now is a massive gamble which we just cannot afford to lose.
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Brexit .... My thoughts... on 15:35 - Jun 21 with 2197 views
Brexit .... My thoughts... on 14:36 - Jun 21 by baz_qpr
Ask yourself why all the Neo-Cons are so pro Brexit, its not to protect your wages, nor your health service. Its because they strongly believe in slim to no government virtually Free Market everywhere. The EU adds regulations and protections, strip them away, they are not going to replace them. The trade unions know that and that's why they are universally supporting Remain. What power will they have to stand up to the Chinese employers
Again, I agree. But why be negative about it? There is an alternative. Get out of the EU. Organise and get together politically on PR (Labour members and leadership, please note: needs doing asap whether we're in the EU or not). Vote against neo-liberals like Dodgy Dave, Boris, Gove and assorted Blair-ites. Recognise the importance not only of proper political representation (Parliament) but also of representation at work (Unions). Draft our own laws, to which so many would consent, to make Britain a place worth living in for the 21st. century. Simples! You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one.
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Brexit .... My thoughts... on 15:56 - Jun 21 with 2157 views
Brexit .... My thoughts... on 14:33 - Jun 21 by PinnerPaul
Firstly is wasn't me who said we would build a new hospital every week and I totally agree about NHS funding being nothing to do with Brexit as claimed by their leaflets along with people standing behind Doris and Nige with "Save Our NHS"
That slogan along with the other nonsense 'Put the Great back in Great Britain" and
"We want Our Country Back" are one of many reasons while I'm a remainer.
It's pretty clear that I'm an ardent Outer and yet I can promise you I have not listened to a single speech from Boris or Nigel on the subject.
Why would I? I know who those people are and what (or rather who) they truly represent and my out vote is NOTHING to do with them. No ones vote should be to do with any current politician, they are mere transient (so called) representatives of us. We can get rid of the likes of them immeasurably easier than we can enforced unwanted EU dictates.
Of course they don't really care about the NHS, but then nor do Dave and George so how about we open our minds to what is really possible, however unlikely with the current limited boundaries of political and governance possibilities we seem to be mentally trapped by, and think about what it will really take as a community to do something like save our NHS from the rapacious global markets who have already begun to pick it apart for their own profits that will no doubt be ending up in tax haven accounts as just another part of the current Wealth Grab by those who have most of it all already.
Edit - see Martin's post above. Getting what we really want is going to take so much more than just ticking a box on Thursday, hopefully one good thing that may come out of all this is an increase in people's genuine political activity and awareness. Let's at least start by really holding our 'representatives' to account.
[Post edited 21 Jun 2016 15:59]
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Brexit .... My thoughts... on 16:50 - Jun 21 with 2134 views
Brexit .... My thoughts... on 16:50 - Jun 21 by QPR_John
If I vote in or out it does not mean I do not respect those that have an opinion different from mine
Sorry, unless I'm losing my marbles here, you kicked this off by taking a couple of lines from something I'd posted and doing a bit of the old ad hominem.
I've now had a quick look at your postings on this subject, and many/most of them are either telling people they've missed the point or saying "Are you serious?" even when they've been talking about their own personal experience.
None of which seems particularly respectful.
And again: we both clearly think we know best, or we wouldn't be endlessly holding forth on an internet messageboard about something neither of us have any hope of practically influencing one way or the other.
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Brexit .... My thoughts... on 17:08 - Jun 21 with 2098 views
Brexit .... My thoughts... on 14:27 - Jun 21 by essextaxiboy
OK , there is a points system in place for non EU migrants so that could act as a starting template .
I could look up the Aussie one but heres my go .
A central agency is set up , an offshoot of the W& P office .
Vacancies have to be advertised in the UK for a period of time then referred to the agency for scoring . (how many points) .
These empty posts would be open to the public view( If a UK youngster saw that we needed 200 brickies it might inspire him to take a course and apply )
Points granted for qualifications, experience in the role , fluency in the language , criminal record and any community work or special qualities .
Interview and references taken up , post offered with relocation support and a warm welcome ... m,aybe even a local ceremony ....IMO
[Post edited 21 Jun 2016 14:27]
Thanks for responding. That does look like a reasonable system however I think behind that system you'd need a whole other department to check for fraud and for auditing to make sure they're applying the rules correctly. It seems likely to cost a fair bit, with many additional people employed to work in these departments and I can't see a Conservative government wishing to increase the size of the state. So I had assumed that they would privatise it like everything else and hand over control of immigration. The lack of clarity on the subject is disappointing.
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Brexit .... My thoughts... on 17:11 - Jun 21 with 2091 views
Brexit .... My thoughts... on 14:27 - Jun 21 by essextaxiboy
OK , there is a points system in place for non EU migrants so that could act as a starting template .
I could look up the Aussie one but heres my go .
A central agency is set up , an offshoot of the W& P office .
Vacancies have to be advertised in the UK for a period of time then referred to the agency for scoring . (how many points) .
These empty posts would be open to the public view( If a UK youngster saw that we needed 200 brickies it might inspire him to take a course and apply )
Points granted for qualifications, experience in the role , fluency in the language , criminal record and any community work or special qualities .
Interview and references taken up , post offered with relocation support and a warm welcome ... m,aybe even a local ceremony ....IMO
[Post edited 21 Jun 2016 14:27]
Sounds pretty expensive and elaborate to me at a time our civil service will be busy unpicking 43 years worth of legislative ties to Europe, but you've obviously given it a lot of thought. Begs the question of why no-one in the Brexit campaign has publicly gone into even this much detail about something a lot of people voting for them are presumably keen to see introduced?
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Brexit .... My thoughts... on 17:12 - Jun 21 with 2091 views
Brexit .... My thoughts... on 17:05 - Jun 21 by DannytheR
Sorry, unless I'm losing my marbles here, you kicked this off by taking a couple of lines from something I'd posted and doing a bit of the old ad hominem.
I've now had a quick look at your postings on this subject, and many/most of them are either telling people they've missed the point or saying "Are you serious?" even when they've been talking about their own personal experience.
None of which seems particularly respectful.
And again: we both clearly think we know best, or we wouldn't be endlessly holding forth on an internet messageboard about something neither of us have any hope of practically influencing one way or the other.
We must have a different idea between argument and being disrepectful. The only time I thought a post was beyond arguing with was when it was posted that a leave vote was akin to wanting a nazi England
"Out is a vote now for a Nazi future for England. "
Was the quote
Saying I think somebody has missed the point is hardly disrespectful
The only time I think I used the words "are you serious"
Was post that suggested leaving the EU would let Philip Greene "do as he pleased". My point being we are in the EU and he did as he pleased
Brexit .... My thoughts... on 12:05 - Jun 21 by 1BobbyHazell
I'm well aware of what Boris stands for in this world and that his sudden 'opposing' of Remain is merely the Bullingdon Boys efforts to make sure that they can run both camps.
I'm not voting out so that Boris et al can run amok, if out did win (which I appreciate it won't) the political landscape would mean a general election would have to be called sooner rather than later, way before Boris had time to put support a TTIP like initiative. And I say TTIP 'like' because at the moment it currently exists purely as a (secret until recent exposure) negotiation/plan between unelected EU bureaucrats and the US etc. One that is clearly dominated by the Big Business interests I mentioned in my earlier posts who are the real influence behind the EU. So any agreement we were to enter into in a similar vein would have to be negotiated/discussed and most importantly ratified by our parliament. A parliament, I might add, that we would have elected on the back of a heightened sense of awareness and of what the EU may have been trying to force upon us.
If under such circumstances the British people still allow their representatives to vote it in, so be it, but at least we have a good chance of stopping it and not being outvoted and having it forced upon us EU style.
I might just add that having had an interest in the direction and aims of the EU for 20 years that TTIP is not remotely the end of the more distasteful, sovereignty-diminishing plans that will be coming our way.
Just as a reminder of what this is all really about here is a quote from Jean Monnet, considered a founding father and architect of the EU -
"Europe's nations should be guided towards the superstate without their people knowing what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually and irreversibly lead to federation."
Something to think about.
[Post edited 21 Jun 2016 12:07]
Bobby I get what you're saying, and I also get that you're voting Out for reasons far more admirable than the people who just fancy a job locking up foreigners at the border. Maybe you're just a more optimistic soul than me, in which case good on you.
But unelected power is everywhere in this country, and among the mass of it I see walking down the street every day, the EU is a long way down the list for me. By all means let's come back to it once we've sorted out the toxic influence of the press, the tax-dodging of big business and the way working class kids are being shut out of all manner of jobs and opportunities they would have ha a better chance at 30 years ago... you might think these are things that the EU is complicit in, but you'd be hard pushed to say they're responsible for them.
Those are some of the things that matter most to me, and I don't see parliament or "regained" sovereignty addressing them even if we stick rockets on the white cliffs of Dover and physically re-locate ourselves in the middle of Atlantic.
Also, from what little I know about Jean Monnet, it's worth remembering he wasn't just some hand-rubbing Brussels bureaucrat. He was hugely active in WW2 keeping up practical links between Britain and resistance France, and then America in turn.
You can see in him more than anyone that no matter how anyone feels about the direction the EU has taken since, it started (and this was when he was talking about "superstates") with a generation of people who had lived through two wars wanting to insure that Europe didn't have another one.
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Brexit .... My thoughts... on 17:47 - Jun 21 with 2055 views
Brexit .... My thoughts... on 17:35 - Jun 21 by DannytheR
Bobby I get what you're saying, and I also get that you're voting Out for reasons far more admirable than the people who just fancy a job locking up foreigners at the border. Maybe you're just a more optimistic soul than me, in which case good on you.
But unelected power is everywhere in this country, and among the mass of it I see walking down the street every day, the EU is a long way down the list for me. By all means let's come back to it once we've sorted out the toxic influence of the press, the tax-dodging of big business and the way working class kids are being shut out of all manner of jobs and opportunities they would have ha a better chance at 30 years ago... you might think these are things that the EU is complicit in, but you'd be hard pushed to say they're responsible for them.
Those are some of the things that matter most to me, and I don't see parliament or "regained" sovereignty addressing them even if we stick rockets on the white cliffs of Dover and physically re-locate ourselves in the middle of Atlantic.
Also, from what little I know about Jean Monnet, it's worth remembering he wasn't just some hand-rubbing Brussels bureaucrat. He was hugely active in WW2 keeping up practical links between Britain and resistance France, and then America in turn.
You can see in him more than anyone that no matter how anyone feels about the direction the EU has taken since, it started (and this was when he was talking about "superstates") with a generation of people who had lived through two wars wanting to insure that Europe didn't have another one.
"for reasons far more admirable than the people who just fancy a job locking up foreigners at the border. "
And you wonder why this referendum campaigne has descended to the level it has
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Brexit .... My thoughts... on 17:57 - Jun 21 with 2043 views
Brexit .... My thoughts... on 17:47 - Jun 21 by QPR_John
"for reasons far more admirable than the people who just fancy a job locking up foreigners at the border. "
And you wonder why this referendum campaigne has descended to the level it has
Oh do me a favour. There's been all sorts thrown around on both sides of this - rows kicking off everywhere and a lot of personal stuff in all directions. I've had the dodgiest character on here calling me a bumboy (which my missus was tickled by), an arsehole and a village idiot. Somehow I managed not to burst into tears or post sanctimonious messages about his manners. Must have missed your outrage too... funny that.
If you want to be messageboard policeman, drop Clive a line and maybe he can sort you out with a uniform.
[Post edited 21 Jun 2016 18:00]
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Brexit .... My thoughts... on 18:17 - Jun 21 with 2009 views
Brexit .... My thoughts... on 17:57 - Jun 21 by DannytheR
Oh do me a favour. There's been all sorts thrown around on both sides of this - rows kicking off everywhere and a lot of personal stuff in all directions. I've had the dodgiest character on here calling me a bumboy (which my missus was tickled by), an arsehole and a village idiot. Somehow I managed not to burst into tears or post sanctimonious messages about his manners. Must have missed your outrage too... funny that.
If you want to be messageboard policeman, drop Clive a line and maybe he can sort you out with a uniform.
[Post edited 21 Jun 2016 18:00]
Clive has been great , letting these debates run . I think we only lost one ? I am sure we have all said some stupid things especially after a few drinks . I have enjoyed them as despite the differences we all have one thing in common ...hooped delusion . Not long before its yesterdays news ...
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Brexit .... My thoughts... on 18:21 - Jun 21 with 2004 views
Brexit .... My thoughts... on 18:17 - Jun 21 by essextaxiboy
Clive has been great , letting these debates run . I think we only lost one ? I am sure we have all said some stupid things especially after a few drinks . I have enjoyed them as despite the differences we all have one thing in common ...hooped delusion . Not long before its yesterdays news ...
Brexit .... My thoughts... on 17:57 - Jun 21 by DannytheR
Oh do me a favour. There's been all sorts thrown around on both sides of this - rows kicking off everywhere and a lot of personal stuff in all directions. I've had the dodgiest character on here calling me a bumboy (which my missus was tickled by), an arsehole and a village idiot. Somehow I managed not to burst into tears or post sanctimonious messages about his manners. Must have missed your outrage too... funny that.
If you want to be messageboard policeman, drop Clive a line and maybe he can sort you out with a uniform.
[Post edited 21 Jun 2016 18:00]
Does not mean you have to join them.
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Brexit .... My thoughts... on 19:42 - Jun 21 with 1934 views
Brexit .... My thoughts... on 19:47 - Jun 21 by QPR_Jim
A. No it won't.
B. There's a difference between Nazis and Germany.
so your happy for Germany to control us ?
Merkel set to ask UK to house MORE migrants? As Germany is to take in 500,000 more asylum seekers
GERMANY will take in around half a million Syrians with family members already living in the country able to apply for asylum to join their relatives.The Federal Office for Migration and Refugees in Berlin (BAMF) said that the loved ones of refugees left behind will be entitled to claim for sanctuary.
Brexit .... My thoughts... on 20:10 - Jun 21 by HollowayRanger
so your happy for Germany to control us ?
Merkel set to ask UK to house MORE migrants? As Germany is to take in 500,000 more asylum seekers
GERMANY will take in around half a million Syrians with family members already living in the country able to apply for asylum to join their relatives.The Federal Office for Migration and Refugees in Berlin (BAMF) said that the loved ones of refugees left behind will be entitled to claim for sanctuary.
"Set to ask" not really very controlling.
Anyway I don't have the time for this tonight unfortunately (fortunately for those fed up of me) so that's probably going to be my last contribution.
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Brexit .... My thoughts... on 20:24 - Jun 21 with 2411 views
Well this has been an interesting debate and thankfully only one day to go and let's face it tomorrow this board will be full of the fixture list and the EU referendum will hardly appear. But in reality it has been an academic exercise if there is an out vote we all know either a way will be found to ignore it or more likely there will further referenda until the correct result is obtained
[Post edited 22 Jun 2016 8:02]
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Brexit .... My thoughts... on 21:41 - Jun 21 with 2344 views
An aside. I believe The EU is under the dominion of big business, as is our current government. People point to the implementation of minimum standards for workers (Albeit the bar is very low) enforced by the eu, However, i was listening to radio 4 this morning and one of the guests was saying that these enforced standards are a boon to big business as the implementation of them is expensive enough to stop smaller business's growing. In my experience, some of this stuff is a paper-chase that does little for the workers. Anyway, a question. Zero-hour contracts, thriving in a britain that is today in the eu. Is this a british phenomenon due to the way we implement these rulings, or are they prevelant across the eu?
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