| Les Ferdinand — Patreon 09:07 - Feb 9 with 19875 views | Northernr |
So.... Interview with Les, fresh off the plane from Heathrow after a scouting trip yesterday.
Tried to ask as many of the points that have come up on here as possible.
Read it here...
https://www.fansnetwork.co.uk/football/queensparkrangers/news/59547
Everybody can listen to it on the Patreon whether subscriber or not (we've made this one a free view, it didn't feel right to paywall it given the significance of the interview and the timing, so apologies to our subscribers for that but I hope you understand)
https://www.patreon.com/LoftForWords |  | | |  |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 08:12 - Feb 10 with 1653 views | PunteR |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 05:57 - Feb 10 by bongo_king |
Great interview, with some "pwopa" questions!
I'd say its worth listening twice and trying to keep an open mind. After my 1st listen, I was pretty concerned. Felt like our DoF doesn't so much do the directing, but rather was largely directed.
2nd listen, his passion came through and I picked up better the directing / liaising role he's had in many things.
Overall, left with mixed feelings. Would say still just about more good than bad from LF on balance, but there have been some clear mistakes (the whole things about him and the board doing "due diligence" on players Beale identified stinks for me and the stuff about loans does not sit well either). |
I havnt listened to it I just read it and it crossed my mind whether that makes a difference to how Les came across. Things might get lost in translation.
Yeh that algorithm nonsense at the start kind of set the tone for me reading it.
I'm not trying to be a dick about it and run the club and Ferdinand down for the sake of it, I hold both close to my heart. I grew up with Ferdinand as one of my heroes.
I think originally he was well intentioned but the execution of that plan hasn't gone as well as it should. Bottom line is we're just not bringing through enough young players and polishing up those rough diamonds. Hence all the loans. And when you have a massive and presumably expensive coaching staff you have to start asking questions. Which Clive did very well. |  |
| Occasional providers of half decent House music. |
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| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 08:17 - Feb 10 with 1642 views | nick_hammersmith |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 23:08 - Feb 9 by Lblock |
Can Danny Paddox superimpose Les’ head onto Chemical Ali’s famous denial speech as the Yanks were driving up Presidential Avenue?
I read that just now as total denial that anything they’ve done, or most worryingly, continue to do, is wrong.
Yes he appears candid but in being so he forgets himself and answers other excellently put questions totally contradicting key answers previously
For example…..
Answer A Sinclair might be a better player this season if the Head CoCh had danced to our tune.
Answer B Lyndon is out long term so we needed an over the hill 34 year old but we are sticking to the plan
Why leave it till the window was shut? Why not wait until Roberts is over his own recent mortal wounding that’ll last a week.
If his only success in his 8 year tenure is cutting the wage bill 80% and inot getting relegated then fair play. However if that’s our bar then fcuk it I’d sooner go full Rotherham and bounce up and down at this level whilst “only” losing £1.5mill a YEAR not a bleedin’ month!!!!
Avoids and deflects too much for me…. The stuff about Lootown is hilarious and reinforces we simply don’t have a clue.
The answer is to get a shrink in as he’ll get Willock back scoring worldies and the rest of them thinking the sun is still shining so we’ll be top again.
Just who signed these players with characters that fall apart like Weetabix in hot milk????
Great interview that just convinced me further the club is finished for at least another 5 to 10 years as a force |
If our players were consistently good every week, or had a better injury record then they would be playing in the Premier League |  | | |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 08:42 - Feb 10 with 1564 views | PinnerPaul |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 17:52 - Feb 9 by SimonD |
No pressure then.....
As I understand it the compensation is calculated based on how long they've been in the academy of the "training club" as follows:
U9 - U11 - £3,000 per season regardless of category
U12 - U16
Cat 1 - £40,000 per season
Cat 2 - £25,000 per season
Cat 3 - £12,500 per season
I worked out for my article on this many years ago that QPR would have got £109,000 from Liverpool for Sterling if EPPP had come in a season earlier.
I think the training club also receives 5% of any transfer, possibly up to the age of 23. |
So not a huge difference between Cat 1 and 2 purely in financial terms of players being poached.
Maybe that's why the club doesn't feel its worth the investment? |  | | |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 08:44 - Feb 10 with 1537 views | PinnerPaul |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 19:47 - Feb 9 by Wilkinswatercarrier |
Just finished reading, and fascinating. However, the Academy lines just seemed weird.
13 players have been poached, 75% who could have played in the 1st team, so let's spend X millions on a state of the art facility, but not protect those assets by making it Cat 1. Only at QPR.
No need to apologise, hindsight and all that. |
But....as Simon points out above, not sure being Cat 1 "protects" your assets from being poached by "bigger" clubs. | | | |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 08:46 - Feb 10 with 1521 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 08:42 - Feb 10 by PinnerPaul |
So not a huge difference between Cat 1 and 2 purely in financial terms of players being poached.
Maybe that's why the club doesn't feel its worth the investment? |
This is good info, and thanks Simon.
If we were Cat 1, would other Cat 1 clubs be able to walk in and poach our players as they can while we stay at Cat 2? Or do we have to agree/accept the bid first (as Clive suggested/wondered above)?
Sorry for all the questions, but this is the closest I've come to getting actual answers on Cat 1 and 2. |  |
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| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 08:52 - Feb 10 with 1502 views | PinnerPaul |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 08:46 - Feb 10 by BrianMcCarthy |
This is good info, and thanks Simon.
If we were Cat 1, would other Cat 1 clubs be able to walk in and poach our players as they can while we stay at Cat 2? Or do we have to agree/accept the bid first (as Clive suggested/wondered above)?
Sorry for all the questions, but this is the closest I've come to getting actual answers on Cat 1 and 2. |
Good question, one of mine from above - are there more/other safeguards for your players when you are a cat 1.
If its just a matter of the financials outlined by Simon, then I don't see much point.
That said, as Les and someone touched on above, IF our best prospects are going to get poached whatever, then maybe the Brentford model of no academy below the U18s is the way to go?
On the third hand!, as I said the other day, I feel it would be sad that no 8 - 16 year olds could dream of playing for QPR in that case.
Not easy! | | | |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 09:03 - Feb 10 with 1480 views | bongo_king |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 08:12 - Feb 10 by PunteR |
I havnt listened to it I just read it and it crossed my mind whether that makes a difference to how Les came across. Things might get lost in translation.
Yeh that algorithm nonsense at the start kind of set the tone for me reading it.
I'm not trying to be a dick about it and run the club and Ferdinand down for the sake of it, I hold both close to my heart. I grew up with Ferdinand as one of my heroes.
I think originally he was well intentioned but the execution of that plan hasn't gone as well as it should. Bottom line is we're just not bringing through enough young players and polishing up those rough diamonds. Hence all the loans. And when you have a massive and presumably expensive coaching staff you have to start asking questions. Which Clive did very well. |
Funny, first time I listened the algorithm stuff annoyed me too. Didn't entirely hold up and sounded like he didn't really know what he was talking about. 2nd time round, it sounded better/made sense. Listening certainly gives a different perspective.
Agree he's gambled a huge amount on the young talent thing, and I'd say even is a bit blinkered by it - feels like he's trying to make it work at any cost but unfortunately it isn't really, for all the reasons Clive cleverly dropped in the questions. | | | |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 09:09 - Feb 10 with 1449 views | Northernr |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 09:03 - Feb 10 by bongo_king |
Funny, first time I listened the algorithm stuff annoyed me too. Didn't entirely hold up and sounded like he didn't really know what he was talking about. 2nd time round, it sounded better/made sense. Listening certainly gives a different perspective.
Agree he's gambled a huge amount on the young talent thing, and I'd say even is a bit blinkered by it - feels like he's trying to make it work at any cost but unfortunately it isn't really, for all the reasons Clive cleverly dropped in the questions. |
I'm not having that algorithm thing at all BTW. Feels like something they heard other clubs saying. | | | |
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| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 09:11 - Feb 10 with 1434 views | hubble |
A fascinating and at times excruciating interview Clive, that left me feeling exasperated. One thing I don't understand - and apologies if this has been explained ad nauseum - but when do we actually exit the FFP tunnel? In other words, is there any light at the end of this agonizing process? Because listening to (and reading) this, I couldn't see it.
"What is our current FFP situation? Off the back of last season are we still within those parameters?
We’re within the parameters but I don’t want to sit here and tell you what that is - there’s a lot of other clubs I’d want to know what their parameters are too. I’m not able to divulge that information publicly because, in the same way I wouldn’t want them to know what we’re doing, we can’t find out what they’re doing."
Just throw us a bone Les. This is just one reason why I found the interview excruciating. In the end, I felt none the wiser about anything really, other than that Les is very good at not answering a direct question directly. I thought your questions were excellent by the way, and I appreciate what an effort it is to transcribe something that long. |  |
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| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 09:22 - Feb 10 with 1386 views | dmm |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 09:11 - Feb 10 by hubble |
A fascinating and at times excruciating interview Clive, that left me feeling exasperated. One thing I don't understand - and apologies if this has been explained ad nauseum - but when do we actually exit the FFP tunnel? In other words, is there any light at the end of this agonizing process? Because listening to (and reading) this, I couldn't see it.
"What is our current FFP situation? Off the back of last season are we still within those parameters?
We’re within the parameters but I don’t want to sit here and tell you what that is - there’s a lot of other clubs I’d want to know what their parameters are too. I’m not able to divulge that information publicly because, in the same way I wouldn’t want them to know what we’re doing, we can’t find out what they’re doing."
Just throw us a bone Les. This is just one reason why I found the interview excruciating. In the end, I felt none the wiser about anything really, other than that Les is very good at not answering a direct question directly. I thought your questions were excellent by the way, and I appreciate what an effort it is to transcribe something that long. |
On the FFP issue: the 2018 fine was £17m with payments spread over 10 years so we don't come out of the 'tunnel' for another 4 years. |  | | |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 09:27 - Feb 10 with 1362 views | joe90 |
Good read, but revealed nothing we don't already know, much like Lee Hoo's interview on the podcast. |  | | |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 09:38 - Feb 10 with 1323 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 09:09 - Feb 10 by Northernr |
I'm not having that algorithm thing at all BTW. Feels like something they heard other clubs saying. |
I was cracking up laughing. It sounded like you were asking Ferdinand that he was looking over his shoulder, haunted, going "well, right, ya....to be honest we normally have a geeky kid to chat about the logarithms...sorry, algorithms" | |
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| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 09:47 - Feb 10 with 1305 views | daveB |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 09:11 - Feb 10 by hubble |
A fascinating and at times excruciating interview Clive, that left me feeling exasperated. One thing I don't understand - and apologies if this has been explained ad nauseum - but when do we actually exit the FFP tunnel? In other words, is there any light at the end of this agonizing process? Because listening to (and reading) this, I couldn't see it.
"What is our current FFP situation? Off the back of last season are we still within those parameters?
We’re within the parameters but I don’t want to sit here and tell you what that is - there’s a lot of other clubs I’d want to know what their parameters are too. I’m not able to divulge that information publicly because, in the same way I wouldn’t want them to know what we’re doing, we can’t find out what they’re doing."
Just throw us a bone Les. This is just one reason why I found the interview excruciating. In the end, I felt none the wiser about anything really, other than that Les is very good at not answering a direct question directly. I thought your questions were excellent by the way, and I appreciate what an effort it is to transcribe something that long. |
There is no end of the tunnel with FFP, it's goes on and you basically can't lose more than £39million over 3 years so if we pass this year then next year it just continues
Only way out is to recruit better, sell players on or get promoted even then you'd still need to comply or hope that the rules change to the same as the premier league |  | | |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 09:52 - Feb 10 with 1274 views | hubble |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 09:47 - Feb 10 by daveB |
There is no end of the tunnel with FFP, it's goes on and you basically can't lose more than £39million over 3 years so if we pass this year then next year it just continues
Only way out is to recruit better, sell players on or get promoted even then you'd still need to comply or hope that the rules change to the same as the premier league |
Jesus H Christ. This contradicts what Dave M just said above. It's insane. It's like we're stuck in a Kafka novel with no ending.
If Danny could just add blue and white hoops to this..
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| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 09:52 - Feb 10 with 1276 views | francisbowles |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 09:47 - Feb 10 by daveB |
There is no end of the tunnel with FFP, it's goes on and you basically can't lose more than £39million over 3 years so if we pass this year then next year it just continues
Only way out is to recruit better, sell players on or get promoted even then you'd still need to comply or hope that the rules change to the same as the premier league |
Agree DaveB. The one thing that I've heard recently, and don't understand, is why are the owners of League 1 clubs and below allowed to make donations to cover a shortfall in FFP/P&S but Championship owners are not? | | | |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 09:57 - Feb 10 with 1251 views | Northernr |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 09:11 - Feb 10 by hubble |
A fascinating and at times excruciating interview Clive, that left me feeling exasperated. One thing I don't understand - and apologies if this has been explained ad nauseum - but when do we actually exit the FFP tunnel? In other words, is there any light at the end of this agonizing process? Because listening to (and reading) this, I couldn't see it.
"What is our current FFP situation? Off the back of last season are we still within those parameters?
We’re within the parameters but I don’t want to sit here and tell you what that is - there’s a lot of other clubs I’d want to know what their parameters are too. I’m not able to divulge that information publicly because, in the same way I wouldn’t want them to know what we’re doing, we can’t find out what they’re doing."
Just throw us a bone Les. This is just one reason why I found the interview excruciating. In the end, I felt none the wiser about anything really, other than that Les is very good at not answering a direct question directly. I thought your questions were excellent by the way, and I appreciate what an effort it is to transcribe something that long. |
We lose between £18m-£24m a season, and we're allowed to lose £39m over a rolling three-year period.
So we're basically only under the line because there are costs, like building a training ground and running an academy, that don't count against your £39m.
The light at the end of the tunnel comes through selling players. The year we sold Eze our accounts showed only a £4m loss, effectively break even for FFP with the deductions. So selling Eze created head space through which we were able to pay some transfer fees, loan fees, and contracts which meant last summer we bought Dunne, Dozzell, Field, De Wijs, Johansen, Austin and Odubajo and we loaned Gray, McCallum, Hendrick, Sanderson.
However, the Eze sale will soon roll out of the three-year calculation, while last summer while remain. So unless we sell somebody else, we're going to have a problem.
The only way we get out of this is regularly selling players for big money. That's it. That's the whole thing. | | | |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 10:05 - Feb 10 with 1224 views | daveB |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 09:09 - Feb 10 by Northernr |
I'm not having that algorithm thing at all BTW. Feels like something they heard other clubs saying. |
Isn't is just a posh way of saying there is now a database that all clubs use which is pretty much what is in football manager where you search for a player with a high shooting score and it shows you all the players on the database with that score. They say things like algorithm because it makes what they are doing sound slightly more complicated than what it actually is. Pretty sure it's all done on here https://wyscout.com/football-platform/
Fernandes used to go on about players values on twitter which he was taking from a website which did a similar thing. | | | |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 10:06 - Feb 10 with 1221 views | daveB |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 09:52 - Feb 10 by hubble |
Jesus H Christ. This contradicts what Dave M just said above. It's insane. It's like we're stuck in a Kafka novel with no ending.
If Danny could just add blue and white hoops to this..
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The fine will be paid in 4 years but you still need to comply with FFP every season | | | |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 10:12 - Feb 10 with 1210 views | SimonD |
Having an academy may allow us to lose some costs, for FFP purposes, which we wouldn't be able to without enabling us to pick up other clubs' rejects, like Eze, at minimal financial impact and risk. | | | |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 10:14 - Feb 10 with 1205 views | SimonD |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 08:46 - Feb 10 by BrianMcCarthy |
This is good info, and thanks Simon.
If we were Cat 1, would other Cat 1 clubs be able to walk in and poach our players as they can while we stay at Cat 2? Or do we have to agree/accept the bid first (as Clive suggested/wondered above)?
Sorry for all the questions, but this is the closest I've come to getting actual answers on Cat 1 and 2. |
As I see it, yes. I guess we, in turn, could do so to them - if we could persuade anyone to come to us.
I've fired a few questions up to Lee Hoos on EPPP and the academy for the next QPR Business videos. Hopefully we will all get some more answers from those. | | | |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 10:17 - Feb 10 with 1193 views | Monkey_Roots |
Sorry if this is agonisingly painful to keep answering questions about, but...
So if a FFP cycle is 3 years...
Let's say, just for example, that 2018 is the start of FFP rules and regs.
Club A keep their losses to 38m when the first 3 year cycle is up in 2021 - does the 2018 year then fall away? (inc the losses for that year - say they were 10 million), so now 2019 (8m) and 2020 (10m) become our base figure, and in the 2021 year's losses then come in as the 3rd year in the cycle ready to be reviewed in 2022... then it continues on like that — the 1st year of each 3 year cycle falls away?
or does it go 2018—2021 as the 3 year cycle - gets reviewed, and then you start from £0 again for the next 3 year cycle?
My brain hurts just thinking about it. |  | | |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 10:19 - Feb 10 with 1187 views | SimonD |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 09:22 - Feb 10 by dmm |
On the FFP issue: the 2018 fine was £17m with payments spread over 10 years so we don't come out of the 'tunnel' for another 4 years. |
The historic fine is purely cash flow and has no bearing on our current situation. The cost of the fine was in the 2017/18 accounts. The accounting treatment of it continues until it is fully paid, but is outside of the scope of FFP. | | | |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 10:22 - Feb 10 with 1156 views | Wegerles_Stairs |
I still don't understand why FFP hasn't been properly challenged in the courts as a restraint of trade - how can a business be told it can only invest so much? It's crazy. Also, it's completely unfair - it costs far more to run a club and stadium in the middle of London than one in a northern town, yet both clubs have the same £39m barrier. [Post edited 10 Feb 2023 10:23]
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| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 10:24 - Feb 10 with 1138 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 10:14 - Feb 10 by SimonD |
As I see it, yes. I guess we, in turn, could do so to them - if we could persuade anyone to come to us.
I've fired a few questions up to Lee Hoos on EPPP and the academy for the next QPR Business videos. Hopefully we will all get some more answers from those. |
Great work, thanks Simon. | |
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| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 10:27 - Feb 10 with 1127 views | SimonD |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 09:57 - Feb 10 by Northernr |
We lose between £18m-£24m a season, and we're allowed to lose £39m over a rolling three-year period.
So we're basically only under the line because there are costs, like building a training ground and running an academy, that don't count against your £39m.
The light at the end of the tunnel comes through selling players. The year we sold Eze our accounts showed only a £4m loss, effectively break even for FFP with the deductions. So selling Eze created head space through which we were able to pay some transfer fees, loan fees, and contracts which meant last summer we bought Dunne, Dozzell, Field, De Wijs, Johansen, Austin and Odubajo and we loaned Gray, McCallum, Hendrick, Sanderson.
However, the Eze sale will soon roll out of the three-year calculation, while last summer while remain. So unless we sell somebody else, we're going to have a problem.
The only way we get out of this is regularly selling players for big money. That's it. That's the whole thing. |
Just to clarify this, the problem we will have is not when last season's accounts are published very shortly (although they will give a strong pointer), nor when this season's accounts are published, but the following season's. Next summer is our best opportunity to sell a couple of players to prevent this.
For those frustrated by a lack on information coming from the club regarding this, there is no way they can publicly discuss this. If there was any sign that we were desperate to sell, the offers for our players would be drastically reduced. | | | |
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