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The one thing I am certain of re this vote is that no-one knows for sure what the repercussions economically will be if we pull out. If you listen to the experts it will be better if we stay in, however its all unconvincing. My issue is that after 10 years of Austerity, the services in this country have been cut to the bone, that is services that are needed by us all - not just Immigrants/benefit spongers. We are not in a position to afford the enormous gamble if it all goes t1ts up. I am taking my lead from Ray Winston and gambling responsibly and staying in. If we ever get to situation when everything is adequately funded and horrible 0 hours contracts were abolished ... then maybe it might be worth the risk to pull out. But to do it now is a massive gamble which we just cannot afford to lose.
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Brexit .... My thoughts... on 10:36 - Jun 28 with 2712 views
They describe themselves as 'a research and campaign group working to expose and challenge the privileged access and influence enjoyed by corporations and their lobby groups in EU policy making.'
It is a fascinating insight into the recent labour laws introduced in France that caused all the civil unrest pre Euro 2016. The ones that so called 'socialist' Hollande pushed through by invoking a special decree that allowed him to bypass the French parliament and bring it straight into law by decree.
I would hope it gives those of you who had somehow decided that the EU was a protection for us against Big Business a new understanding of how the EU really works, who it is really (and very aggressively) supporting and how it is enforcing laws upon member states.
I would love to hear opinions afterwards, no arguing, let's come together.
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Brexit .... My thoughts... on 12:32 - Jun 28 with 2637 views
In the aftermath of the vote we have an economic crisis, a political crisis and a constitutional crisis, all of which was easily foreseen.
Major falls in the exchange rate and stock market are in line with what all the economic experts predicted. But most people on the Leave side weren't listening. For them immigration was the issue and it didn't really matter if immigrants were from the EU or outside. There's some sign of stabilisation today. But the falls in the exchange rates, unless rapidly corrected which seems unlikely, will feed through in higher inflation.
Cameron invested so much personal capital in a Remain vote he had nowhere to go when he lost. I understand why he doesn't feel he can trigger Article 50 but failure to do so will just prolong the uncertainty. And that isn't good for investments nor businesses. So we're waiting on a new PM, who will have to try to re-unite a divided party. But that's nothing compared with Labour. The fallout between Corbyn and the PLP was always simmering. I don't think the current discontent was expected this early.
Constitutionally, Scotland and Gibralter voted heavily in favour of Remain and there's no doubting that a break up of the (dis) United Kingdom is a very real possibility. Northern Ireland also voted to Remain and there are real issues arising from that decision. There is a very porous land border with the Republic, which is an EU member. The Common Travel Area needs to be addressed and we could see customs points in South Armagh and Drogheda.
The whole thing is an absolute mess. Neither will it be resolved quickly.
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one's lifetime." (Mark Twain)
Find me on twitter @derbyhoop and now on Bluesky
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Brexit .... My thoughts... on 12:52 - Jun 28 with 2603 views
I think the Remain side were just that little bit too arrogant as to the outcome and as we neared 23 June, all sorts of messages about 'we need to change' started to come from the EU in what looked like a desperate attempt of an errant partner pleading that they can change.
The Leave side really does need to reign bloody Farage in. His gloating in the EU this morning will do none of us any favours. His made his point, now bugger off Nigel!
The problem with leaving is that we don't know, but suspect, a lot of people were overly focused on immigration and the result is obviously empowering some to act with racist motivations. Its not the rise of fascism and we of course knocked that little swine in the head in the 30s and 40s, but I am confident we can do that again. However, it is an issue that needs watching!
The other problem is that the global elite are going to look to make an example of us. If they do, then you know what, they really are a shower of toss. Merkel has sounded more pragmatic, and is she is able to maintain that approach, then everyone else will follow. But the Yanks don't like this and may well dictate the response. Frankly, they are the Jekyll in the pack in my view.
But let's realise what we're dealing with here and the somewhat unscrupulous nee evangelical mindset of the EU to push for what Mon. Hollande called yesterday 'the EU project'. Here's another article from Corporate Europe Observatory about a cozy unfettered and unaccountable tie up between big-business and the EU (which I might have read here before).
Brexit .... My thoughts... on 12:32 - Jun 28 by derbyhoop
In the aftermath of the vote we have an economic crisis, a political crisis and a constitutional crisis, all of which was easily foreseen.
Major falls in the exchange rate and stock market are in line with what all the economic experts predicted. But most people on the Leave side weren't listening. For them immigration was the issue and it didn't really matter if immigrants were from the EU or outside. There's some sign of stabilisation today. But the falls in the exchange rates, unless rapidly corrected which seems unlikely, will feed through in higher inflation.
Cameron invested so much personal capital in a Remain vote he had nowhere to go when he lost. I understand why he doesn't feel he can trigger Article 50 but failure to do so will just prolong the uncertainty. And that isn't good for investments nor businesses. So we're waiting on a new PM, who will have to try to re-unite a divided party. But that's nothing compared with Labour. The fallout between Corbyn and the PLP was always simmering. I don't think the current discontent was expected this early.
Constitutionally, Scotland and Gibralter voted heavily in favour of Remain and there's no doubting that a break up of the (dis) United Kingdom is a very real possibility. Northern Ireland also voted to Remain and there are real issues arising from that decision. There is a very porous land border with the Republic, which is an EU member. The Common Travel Area needs to be addressed and we could see customs points in South Armagh and Drogheda.
The whole thing is an absolute mess. Neither will it be resolved quickly.
The whole "Scotland, Gib, London, et al" thing is grating on me.
IT WAS ONE PERSON ONE VOTE! What part of that is not understandable? My area voted by 0.5% out but it's totally irrelevant, the COUNTRY voted out and that should be respected and we move on.
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Brexit .... My thoughts... on 13:48 - Jun 28 with 2537 views
My Irish wife who has lived here since 2001 was having a discussion at work yesterday. A leaver colleague was going off on one about immigration. She pointed out that some of the things she was saying were untrue.
"Well, you would say that, you're one of them. When are you going home?"
Thankfully my lady gave a straight bat "We've already booked our tickets. You're the one that's stuck here".
But we spent the night starting to seriously make plans to go back. I completely give up.
At least it made the football extra funny for me
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Brexit .... My thoughts... on 13:56 - Jun 28 with 2525 views
Brexit .... My thoughts... on 13:48 - Jun 28 by robith
My Irish wife who has lived here since 2001 was having a discussion at work yesterday. A leaver colleague was going off on one about immigration. She pointed out that some of the things she was saying were untrue.
"Well, you would say that, you're one of them. When are you going home?"
Thankfully my lady gave a straight bat "We've already booked our tickets. You're the one that's stuck here".
But we spent the night starting to seriously make plans to go back. I completely give up.
At least it made the football extra funny for me
That's appalling, I voted out but not on the immigration card, if another colleague heard the conversation then your wife's co-worker should be in deep sbit.
favourite cheese mature Cheddar. FFS there is no such thing as the EPL
Brexit .... My thoughts... on 13:48 - Jun 28 by robith
My Irish wife who has lived here since 2001 was having a discussion at work yesterday. A leaver colleague was going off on one about immigration. She pointed out that some of the things she was saying were untrue.
"Well, you would say that, you're one of them. When are you going home?"
Thankfully my lady gave a straight bat "We've already booked our tickets. You're the one that's stuck here".
But we spent the night starting to seriously make plans to go back. I completely give up.
At least it made the football extra funny for me
Not only a vile and nasty thing to say but it shows a frightening lack of intelligence since citizens of the Irish Republic have had free movement to the UK since 1923 ( I think that is the correct date of the common travel area) way before and hopefully long after the EU. That agreement is bilateral and has no bearing on whether we are in or out of the EU. It would have been interesting to hear the reply if your wife had pointed that out. Just to declare an interest my wife is Irish.
Just to add there is no requirements for a passport for UK and Irish citizens travelling between the two countries, I usually use mine when travelling there but only as a security measure as an identity document. A photo driving license would do.
Brexit .... My thoughts... on 13:48 - Jun 28 by robith
My Irish wife who has lived here since 2001 was having a discussion at work yesterday. A leaver colleague was going off on one about immigration. She pointed out that some of the things she was saying were untrue.
"Well, you would say that, you're one of them. When are you going home?"
Thankfully my lady gave a straight bat "We've already booked our tickets. You're the one that's stuck here".
But we spent the night starting to seriously make plans to go back. I completely give up.
At least it made the football extra funny for me
I think this is one of the worrying things about this whole process, robith. I won't open up a debate on the incident in Burstall (that's already been done) but underneath the surface there is an underlying nastiness - borne out by misplaced fear in some cases - and it's not far (enough) below the surface.
I'm not saying this just applies to the UK and I'm not pointing fingers at anyone on this board - the debate has been reasonable and, at times, passionate and rightly so.
I did say that this process has made the UK hold up a mirror to itself. We've learned alot over the past few days.
Good luck to you and your wife, whatever your plans.
"Thank you for supporting Queens Park Rangers Steep Staircase"... and I thought I'd signed up for a rollercoaster.
Brexit .... My thoughts... on 13:56 - Jun 28 by loftboy
That's appalling, I voted out but not on the immigration card, if another colleague heard the conversation then your wife's co-worker should be in deep sbit.
My wife's a hardcore union member, but the other person is saying it was just a joke. Given their jobs won't last the recession/next Tory austerity on acid she's leaning towards not following up.
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Brexit .... My thoughts... on 15:13 - Jun 28 with 2433 views
Brexit .... My thoughts... on 14:47 - Jun 28 by Mytch_QPR
I think this is one of the worrying things about this whole process, robith. I won't open up a debate on the incident in Burstall (that's already been done) but underneath the surface there is an underlying nastiness - borne out by misplaced fear in some cases - and it's not far (enough) below the surface.
I'm not saying this just applies to the UK and I'm not pointing fingers at anyone on this board - the debate has been reasonable and, at times, passionate and rightly so.
I did say that this process has made the UK hold up a mirror to itself. We've learned alot over the past few days.
Good luck to you and your wife, whatever your plans.
And don't get me wrong - we're probably going to Ireland, and Irish people are super racist.
It's just I hate seeing my wife go through stuff like that - reminds me all too much of the grief my parents got during the 90s and what they tell me of from before I was born
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Brexit .... My thoughts... on 15:21 - Jun 28 with 2417 views
Brexit .... My thoughts... on 15:13 - Jun 28 by robith
And don't get me wrong - we're probably going to Ireland, and Irish people are super racist.
It's just I hate seeing my wife go through stuff like that - reminds me all too much of the grief my parents got during the 90s and what they tell me of from before I was born
Robith,
There is some racism in Ireland, sad to say, but I think most Irish people have coped very well with the immigration of '00 onwards considering it was the first time it's happened in the Nation's history.
Maybe it's just that I hang around with people who detest racism. Maybe I'm lucky. But - hand on heart - I think we're getting an awful lot better over the last two generations. Either way, generalising that Irish people are super racist is, well, racist
"The opposite of love, after all, is not hate, but indifference."
Brexit .... My thoughts... on 15:21 - Jun 28 by BrianMcCarthy
Robith,
There is some racism in Ireland, sad to say, but I think most Irish people have coped very well with the immigration of '00 onwards considering it was the first time it's happened in the Nation's history.
Maybe it's just that I hang around with people who detest racism. Maybe I'm lucky. But - hand on heart - I think we're getting an awful lot better over the last two generations. Either way, generalising that Irish people are super racist is, well, racist
Have taken my partner, who is English, to Ireland on three occasions now and she wold tell you that she cannot get over the genuine warmth and friendliness she has encountered in all four corners.
We saw more immigrants last week in some of the more remote towns and villages in the South and West of Ireland than I had personally expected to see and I'd have to say I saw no evidence of tension at all.
It was also interesting to note at the wedding we attended, how a couple in their 40s, living in England but from Irish parents who emigrated to England in the Fifties, were taken to immediate task for voting Leave, principally because of their views on immigration. They were reminded by one of the older attendees that they were from immigrant families themselves who were well served by the opportunities Britain had afforded them. The subject was brought to a curt end by the comment from the older gentleman "Uneducated voting if ever there was"!
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Brexit .... My thoughts... on 16:36 - Jun 28 with 2331 views
Brexit .... My thoughts... on 16:13 - Jun 28 by WatfordR
Have taken my partner, who is English, to Ireland on three occasions now and she wold tell you that she cannot get over the genuine warmth and friendliness she has encountered in all four corners.
We saw more immigrants last week in some of the more remote towns and villages in the South and West of Ireland than I had personally expected to see and I'd have to say I saw no evidence of tension at all.
It was also interesting to note at the wedding we attended, how a couple in their 40s, living in England but from Irish parents who emigrated to England in the Fifties, were taken to immediate task for voting Leave, principally because of their views on immigration. They were reminded by one of the older attendees that they were from immigrant families themselves who were well served by the opportunities Britain had afforded them. The subject was brought to a curt end by the comment from the older gentleman "Uneducated voting if ever there was"!
Correct me if I am wrong but the leave campaign wanted to get control of immigration not to stop it completely. Exactly like every other country apart from those in the EU and even countries in the EU has the right to control non-EU immigration. I really cannot see how this policy can be construed as racist. Your friends parents were not immigrants in the sense that there was free movement between Ireland and the UK when they came over. Free movement as bilateral agreements I would suggest comes under the heading of controlled immigration
[Post edited 28 Jun 2016 19:09]
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Brexit .... My thoughts... on 16:41 - Jun 28 with 2315 views
Brexit .... My thoughts... on 16:36 - Jun 28 by QPR_John
Correct me if I am wrong but the leave campaign wanted to get control of immigration not to stop it completely. Exactly like every other country apart from those in the EU and even countries in the EU has the right to control non-EU immigration. I really cannot see how this policy can be construed as racist. Your friends parents were not immigrants in the sense that there was free movement between Ireland and the UK when they came over. Free movement as bilateral agreements I would suggest comes under the heading of controlled immigration
[Post edited 28 Jun 2016 19:09]
I am aware that one of Leave's key poicies was to cut immigration. I am also aware they were against further contries joining the EU in case it led to further immigration into the UK from these contries. I'm not sure that's the same as campaigning to control non-EU immigration.
Controlled immigration under existing agreements is one thing. Illegal immigration is another which any country may deal with if it has the political will to do so. Political asylum and refugees from war zones are yet another. Which of these were UKIP referring to with their "Breaking Point" advertisiement?
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Brexit .... My thoughts... on 17:08 - Jun 28 with 2260 views
Brexit .... My thoughts... on 16:59 - Jun 28 by WatfordR
I am aware that one of Leave's key poicies was to cut immigration. I am also aware they were against further contries joining the EU in case it led to further immigration into the UK from these contries. I'm not sure that's the same as campaigning to control non-EU immigration.
Controlled immigration under existing agreements is one thing. Illegal immigration is another which any country may deal with if it has the political will to do so. Political asylum and refugees from war zones are yet another. Which of these were UKIP referring to with their "Breaking Point" advertisiement?
What people seem to be unaware of is that freedom of movement of goods, capital and people was one of the founding principles of the EEC, and was retained when the EU followed on. It was something the UK willingly signed up to when we joined in 1973 and is still a principle cherished by the other 27 members. But clearly not by the UK.
What has changed is that the numbers have dramatically increased - partially because the financial crisis of 2008 has led to high unemployment in the southern EU states but also because of the Middle East conflicts and wars in Africa.
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one's lifetime." (Mark Twain)
Find me on twitter @derbyhoop and now on Bluesky
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Brexit .... My thoughts... on 21:50 - Jun 28 with 2367 views
Brexit .... My thoughts... on 20:29 - Jun 28 by derbyhoop
What people seem to be unaware of is that freedom of movement of goods, capital and people was one of the founding principles of the EEC, and was retained when the EU followed on. It was something the UK willingly signed up to when we joined in 1973 and is still a principle cherished by the other 27 members. But clearly not by the UK.
What has changed is that the numbers have dramatically increased - partially because the financial crisis of 2008 has led to high unemployment in the southern EU states but also because of the Middle East conflicts and wars in Africa.
Makes sense. Free movement in itself is not bad, as has been said before the bilateral agreement between Eire and the UK existed long before the EU was formed it is when the numbers get out of control problems arise.
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Brexit .... My thoughts... on 22:21 - Jun 28 with 2338 views
Just watching the news and Camron is now saying the EU will have to change the rules on free movement and Obama is saying there should be no hysterical reaction to brexit. Maybe if they approached the campaign along those lines the result might have been different.
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Brexit .... My thoughts... on 22:26 - Jun 28 with 2331 views
Brexit .... My thoughts... on 22:21 - Jun 28 by QPR_John
Just watching the news and Camron is now saying the EU will have to change the rules on free movement and Obama is saying there should be no hysterical reaction to brexit. Maybe if they approached the campaign along those lines the result might have been different.
i think cameron thought it was a gimmee, johnson didn't expect to win but have an honourable defeat, be seen as a man of the people and grab leadership of the tories once dave left, while farage wanted to pick up more disenchanted voters for ukip. Their game playing has now stirred up a hornets nest, lets hope it stings the right people.
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Brexit .... My thoughts... on 22:52 - Jun 28 with 2286 views
Brexit .... My thoughts... on 20:29 - Jun 28 by derbyhoop
What people seem to be unaware of is that freedom of movement of goods, capital and people was one of the founding principles of the EEC, and was retained when the EU followed on. It was something the UK willingly signed up to when we joined in 1973 and is still a principle cherished by the other 27 members. But clearly not by the UK.
What has changed is that the numbers have dramatically increased - partially because the financial crisis of 2008 has led to high unemployment in the southern EU states but also because of the Middle East conflicts and wars in Africa.
If the EU had remained a club for rich Western European countries then no-one would have had much of a problem with it and the Eurosceptics would have remained a fringe pressure group. The problem is that the EU has been determined to push on east as hard and fast as it can regardless of the economic and political situation in the countries who were joining.
No-one worried about freedom of movement until the A8 countries joined in 2004. Blair screwed up hugely by not putting in place transitional controls - the UK being the only EU member state other than Sweden and Ireland not to do so - so a million Poles were able to come to the UK within a few years. Bulgaria and Romania were soon added despite an ever greater income gap. Then the EU wanted the former Yugoslavian successor states to join with their smörgåsbord of institutional woes and seething ethnic tensions.
EU overtures towards Ukraine in face of all diplomatic common sense is what led Putin to invade Crimea and Donetsk.
With its citizens turning against it throughout Europe its response, as always, is that there is no problem that cannot be fixed with more integration, the total antithesis of the popular sentiment. If the EU does implode as a result of Brexit then it largely bought it upon itself.
Current location: OX10
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Brexit .... My thoughts... on 07:02 - Jun 29 with 2152 views
Brexit .... My thoughts... on 23:59 - Jun 28 by WanderR
If the EU had remained a club for rich Western European countries then no-one would have had much of a problem with it and the Eurosceptics would have remained a fringe pressure group. The problem is that the EU has been determined to push on east as hard and fast as it can regardless of the economic and political situation in the countries who were joining.
No-one worried about freedom of movement until the A8 countries joined in 2004. Blair screwed up hugely by not putting in place transitional controls - the UK being the only EU member state other than Sweden and Ireland not to do so - so a million Poles were able to come to the UK within a few years. Bulgaria and Romania were soon added despite an ever greater income gap. Then the EU wanted the former Yugoslavian successor states to join with their smörgåsbord of institutional woes and seething ethnic tensions.
EU overtures towards Ukraine in face of all diplomatic common sense is what led Putin to invade Crimea and Donetsk.
With its citizens turning against it throughout Europe its response, as always, is that there is no problem that cannot be fixed with more integration, the total antithesis of the popular sentiment. If the EU does implode as a result of Brexit then it largely bought it upon itself.
Expansion left the EU not too diverse, but vulnerable to Parkinson's law of comitology. With over 20 members, a committee becomes unable to take any decision and is replaced from within by a smaller action group. Parkinson made up the term 'comitology' as a joke, but ironically it has developed as a real discipline, within the EU.
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