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The one thing I am certain of re this vote is that no-one knows for sure what the repercussions economically will be if we pull out. If you listen to the experts it will be better if we stay in, however its all unconvincing. My issue is that after 10 years of Austerity, the services in this country have been cut to the bone, that is services that are needed by us all - not just Immigrants/benefit spongers. We are not in a position to afford the enormous gamble if it all goes t1ts up. I am taking my lead from Ray Winston and gambling responsibly and staying in. If we ever get to situation when everything is adequately funded and horrible 0 hours contracts were abolished ... then maybe it might be worth the risk to pull out. But to do it now is a massive gamble which we just cannot afford to lose.
2
Brexit .... My thoughts... on 14:57 - Jun 27 with 1951 views
Brexit .... My thoughts... on 14:38 - Jun 27 by hoof_hearted
Just seen Angela Eagles resignation interview.
If Corbyn is fighting or ignoring loyal people like her then he has truly lost the plot.
He must be hoping for a long hot summer of civil unrest and the start of the revolution, the deluded knt that he is.
Can someone explain to me how the Brexit crisis has become a Labour crisis?
The Tories are in government, they delivered the referendum, our fearless leader Mr Cameron flounced off as soon as he could. And yet the media focus is almost entirely on Labour.
A cynic might think that Murdoch and the rest of them have it in Corbyn. I assume with Chilcot around the corner, Tony B has already had a word.
Like any vote, be it an election or referendum, there are many issues which people vote on.
Undoubtedly immigration has been a key issue for some, but for others not and the worst thing that happened to this issue was that immigration was allowed to become a dominant one.
The problem with immigration is that its been increasingly run by an arrogant cabal of EU mandarins determined to create a neo-liberal and homogenized European superstate. Personally, I am very much against that, but while #moreincommon gathered momentum, it should not be at the expense of cherishing that which makes us unique. If the Spanish want to sleep in the afternoon, the French do nothing on Mondays and the Brits to eat unpasturised cheese, then Europe has fundamentally failed to appreciate that centuries of individuality, culture, history and so on, cannot realistically be made into one inside 40 years. To not have envisaged some sort of negative reaction and resistance, is where arrogance also meets ignorance!
In 2006, I was back in London and a person from my own ethnic origin was talking to a person from another in a shop I entered. Both agreeing that there were too many Poles in the country! I butted in, as I am want to do, and reminded the Irishman that it wasn't that long ago when he was on a list with blacks and dogs deemed unsuitable to rent to and to the Asian chap, that it wasn't that far back when he would have been subject to more racism than he was.
In its own way, that's a form of integration right there. Two economic migrants to the UK, bemoaning the next tranche. But the thing is, when you are dealing with anything that involves shifting attitudes, it will only happen properly if it develops organically and over time.
This is why you now find lots of Englishmen in pubs cheering Ireland and piling into a curry house afterwards. Attitudes have changed with assimilation and integration that developed gradually.
People don't like change and they particularly don't like it to happen too quickly or, feel that they are powerless and its being rammed down their throat. If the EU had allowed migration, but on a more controlled basis, then it would have allowed people to come to terms with it in their own time. But this is not a problem peculiar to the UK, its a debate happening within the EU, and the fact that it was neither foreseen nor controlled, is a serious failing on the EU's part.
Alas, this is a growing trend globally. For example, I understand Belize has had a sudden and large influx of Chinese (this is a discussion for another day) and its lead to problems as the locals feel the Chinese are taking over. Are the locals racist or is it really the consequences of uncontrolled migration and one where the efforts to integrate have been woefully inadequate?
The UK's efforts to integrate the latest ethnic group has, thus far at least, failed because whatever measures there were to integrate our new peoples, was totally ineffective.
One thing that has surprised me during the referendum debate, is how the left do not appear to have raised concerns about migrants really being a source of cheap labour. There are reports of UK companies advertising vacancies in eastern Europe and not here! Further fuel on the fire that this is really what the free-movement of people is really about, cheap labour. And not only that, but labour that does not generally look to join trade unions outside their own countries.
This has of course allowed some to fan the flames of racism. But if we saw off fascism in the 30s, I am sure as eggs are eggs, someone like Farage won't succeed now.
For Team UK to thrive post-Brexit, we're going to have to be more inclusive and open to the world. Things we have in abundance when you take a step back and look at things objectively and not elevating a few idiots as being representative of us all. There is no way foreigners here will be sent packing, I do not believe the Brexit leaders ever suggested that.
But if you think there is some validity to my views about the EU being neo-liberal, then here's where we should all now be focused. The 1%ers/establishment/Bilderbergs of this world will not like this one little bit. We're all about to get a lesson on whether 'democracy' really is alive and kicking or whether we're to be made an example of, so that any other countries thinking of striking out for independence will be warned - try it, and we will f..k you over!
Oh, and if you're still reading, then if you also want to know why we've got a 'migrant' problem, well its because of one odious creep who, in a desperate attempt to ingratiate himself with the Neoliberals over the pond, took us into an illegal and unnecessary war which has been the reason why we're seeing mass flight of people in the MENA regions as much as we're seeing the effects of a disproportionate sharing of wealth making economic migration a necessity for many and not a choice!
'Always In Motion' by John Honney available on amazon.co.uk
Brexit .... My thoughts... on 14:32 - Jun 27 by hoof_hearted
Well if we have no houses or jobs and we've stopped giving benefits and health care away to all and sundry the queue of people trying to get into the country will be non-existent. Or at the German border more likely. We'll be happy and Calais will be happy.
Conclusion: High unemployment and a chronic housing shortage = happiness. Hmmmmm. I may have to examine my workings again.
Thing is, there are loads of illegal immigrants working here already. Having no employment cards and no benefits doesn't seem to deter them. Plenty of British employers are prepared to break the law to get cheap labour.
Strong and stable my arse.
0
Brexit .... My thoughts... on 16:17 - Jun 27 with 1838 views
Brexit .... My thoughts... on 15:00 - Jun 27 by PlanetHonneywood
Like any vote, be it an election or referendum, there are many issues which people vote on.
Undoubtedly immigration has been a key issue for some, but for others not and the worst thing that happened to this issue was that immigration was allowed to become a dominant one.
The problem with immigration is that its been increasingly run by an arrogant cabal of EU mandarins determined to create a neo-liberal and homogenized European superstate. Personally, I am very much against that, but while #moreincommon gathered momentum, it should not be at the expense of cherishing that which makes us unique. If the Spanish want to sleep in the afternoon, the French do nothing on Mondays and the Brits to eat unpasturised cheese, then Europe has fundamentally failed to appreciate that centuries of individuality, culture, history and so on, cannot realistically be made into one inside 40 years. To not have envisaged some sort of negative reaction and resistance, is where arrogance also meets ignorance!
In 2006, I was back in London and a person from my own ethnic origin was talking to a person from another in a shop I entered. Both agreeing that there were too many Poles in the country! I butted in, as I am want to do, and reminded the Irishman that it wasn't that long ago when he was on a list with blacks and dogs deemed unsuitable to rent to and to the Asian chap, that it wasn't that far back when he would have been subject to more racism than he was.
In its own way, that's a form of integration right there. Two economic migrants to the UK, bemoaning the next tranche. But the thing is, when you are dealing with anything that involves shifting attitudes, it will only happen properly if it develops organically and over time.
This is why you now find lots of Englishmen in pubs cheering Ireland and piling into a curry house afterwards. Attitudes have changed with assimilation and integration that developed gradually.
People don't like change and they particularly don't like it to happen too quickly or, feel that they are powerless and its being rammed down their throat. If the EU had allowed migration, but on a more controlled basis, then it would have allowed people to come to terms with it in their own time. But this is not a problem peculiar to the UK, its a debate happening within the EU, and the fact that it was neither foreseen nor controlled, is a serious failing on the EU's part.
Alas, this is a growing trend globally. For example, I understand Belize has had a sudden and large influx of Chinese (this is a discussion for another day) and its lead to problems as the locals feel the Chinese are taking over. Are the locals racist or is it really the consequences of uncontrolled migration and one where the efforts to integrate have been woefully inadequate?
The UK's efforts to integrate the latest ethnic group has, thus far at least, failed because whatever measures there were to integrate our new peoples, was totally ineffective.
One thing that has surprised me during the referendum debate, is how the left do not appear to have raised concerns about migrants really being a source of cheap labour. There are reports of UK companies advertising vacancies in eastern Europe and not here! Further fuel on the fire that this is really what the free-movement of people is really about, cheap labour. And not only that, but labour that does not generally look to join trade unions outside their own countries.
This has of course allowed some to fan the flames of racism. But if we saw off fascism in the 30s, I am sure as eggs are eggs, someone like Farage won't succeed now.
For Team UK to thrive post-Brexit, we're going to have to be more inclusive and open to the world. Things we have in abundance when you take a step back and look at things objectively and not elevating a few idiots as being representative of us all. There is no way foreigners here will be sent packing, I do not believe the Brexit leaders ever suggested that.
But if you think there is some validity to my views about the EU being neo-liberal, then here's where we should all now be focused. The 1%ers/establishment/Bilderbergs of this world will not like this one little bit. We're all about to get a lesson on whether 'democracy' really is alive and kicking or whether we're to be made an example of, so that any other countries thinking of striking out for independence will be warned - try it, and we will f..k you over!
Oh, and if you're still reading, then if you also want to know why we've got a 'migrant' problem, well its because of one odious creep who, in a desperate attempt to ingratiate himself with the Neoliberals over the pond, took us into an illegal and unnecessary war which has been the reason why we're seeing mass flight of people in the MENA regions as much as we're seeing the effects of a disproportionate sharing of wealth making economic migration a necessity for many and not a choice!
I'm having a break from this thread but had to pop in to say excellent post John. I'm not sure how long it will take for these sniping Remainers to realise/remember that it takes a lot more than an in or an out vote to really deal with the problem of the 1%ers ever increasing wealth grab. They seem to be talking as though the last 7 years hadn't happened and that Dave, George and the kindly EU were leading us towards economic prosperity and glory!
Keep it up brother.
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Brexit .... My thoughts... on 16:45 - Jun 27 with 1796 views
Brexit .... My thoughts... on 14:19 - Jun 27 by Mytch_QPR
They're fed up with us - we've always tried to be half in / half out (Hokey Cokey stylee) and they've lost patience with it all.
Brilliant post earlier on how Cameron has handed the poisoned chalice to Boris / Gove / May etc - they'll be the ones to trigger A50 and start the mega sh*tstorm. No wonder Boris is saying there's no rush!
Well having a half in/half out policy served us well when we did not join the Euro. But of course Brussels have never forgiven us for that
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Brexit .... My thoughts... on 16:47 - Jun 27 with 1794 views
Brexit .... My thoughts... on 14:57 - Jun 27 by TheChef
Can someone explain to me how the Brexit crisis has become a Labour crisis?
The Tories are in government, they delivered the referendum, our fearless leader Mr Cameron flounced off as soon as he could. And yet the media focus is almost entirely on Labour.
A cynic might think that Murdoch and the rest of them have it in Corbyn. I assume with Chilcot around the corner, Tony B has already had a word.
Shows how bad Corbyn's judgement is that he filled his shadow cabinet with so many people in the pay of Murdoch I assume you meant that.
Brexit .... My thoughts... on 16:17 - Jun 27 by 1BobbyHazell
I'm having a break from this thread but had to pop in to say excellent post John. I'm not sure how long it will take for these sniping Remainers to realise/remember that it takes a lot more than an in or an out vote to really deal with the problem of the 1%ers ever increasing wealth grab. They seem to be talking as though the last 7 years hadn't happened and that Dave, George and the kindly EU were leading us towards economic prosperity and glory!
Keep it up brother.
And you are talking as if the last 43 years never happened. You can't see a way forward so you want go back. And don't make snidely accusations like sniping by the remain group. I don't do sniping. You want to know where I stand just ask. I'll tell you straight and no Fcking about.
Strong and stable my arse.
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Brexit .... My thoughts... on 16:54 - Jun 27 with 1774 views
Brexit .... My thoughts... on 16:49 - Jun 27 by johncharles
And you are talking as if the last 43 years never happened. You can't see a way forward so you want go back. And don't make snidely accusations like sniping by the remain group. I don't do sniping. You want to know where I stand just ask. I'll tell you straight and no Fcking about.
I can't see a way forward! Just read the last 20 pages of this thread and then get back to me!! All I've talked about is what we have to do to move forward, so your comment about me wanting to go back is clearly a misplaced strawman. I'm presuming, but I can't be sure, that it's based on a stereotype of an out voter that you have
If you are naive enough to believe that the neoliberal monster hasn't got its claws firmly embedded in the EU then that's up to you.
If you haven't been sniping then good for you, there has been sniping on this thread.
[Post edited 27 Jun 2016 16:58]
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Brexit .... My thoughts... on 16:58 - Jun 27 with 1758 views
Brexit .... My thoughts... on 15:34 - Jun 27 by Mytch_QPR
Actually, I forgot the biggest irony - that being that there has been more debate and discussion now that the vote has been cast.
That's certainly true.
Having said that it does reminds me horribly of the days and weeks following the invasion or of Iraq and the toppling of Saddam.
"Who's got the plan of what we do next?" "I don't. I thought you had it." "Nope, never had one of those". "Are you sure? F uk......" "Oh look there are 500,000 desperate-looking people over there. I wonder where they're going."
Brexit .... My thoughts... on 16:57 - Jun 27 by 1BobbyHazell
I can't see a way forward! Just read the last 20 pages of this thread and then get back to me!! All I've talked about is what we have to do to move forward, so your comment about me wanting to go back is clearly a misplaced strawman. I'm presuming, but I can't be sure, that it's based on a stereotype of an out voter that you have
If you are naive enough to believe that the neoliberal monster hasn't got its claws firmly embedded in the EU then that's up to you.
If you haven't been sniping then good for you, there has been sniping on this thread.
[Post edited 27 Jun 2016 16:58]
Not everyone who disagrees with you is naive. Been reading about the Bilderberg group for years. I'm also well aware of the concentration of the world's in a small percentage of people and I hate it and sign petition and all that. But we have more chance of breaking the strangle hold the old Etonians have on the politics of this country by staying in the EU. Bet the Etonians boaters were thrown in the air when the leave vote came in. By the way, do you feel at all responsible for the blatant lie that got your side past the post ? Will be signing the petition calling for the Leave group to stand by their promise to give £50 million a week to the NHS ?
Strong and stable my arse.
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Brexit .... My thoughts... on 18:39 - Jun 27 with 1642 views
Brexit .... My thoughts... on 17:05 - Jun 27 by londonscottish
That's certainly true.
Having said that it does reminds me horribly of the days and weeks following the invasion or of Iraq and the toppling of Saddam.
"Who's got the plan of what we do next?" "I don't. I thought you had it." "Nope, never had one of those". "Are you sure? F uk......" "Oh look there are 500,000 desperate-looking people over there. I wonder where they're going."
Turns out dodgy Dave didn't have a plan b as it would totally undermine his scare mongering that there would be armageddon if we left, very naive of him indeed..
favourite cheese mature Cheddar. FFS there is no such thing as the EPL
Shitstorm has only just begun, Loftboy. We will have a recession leading to serious civil unrest as many who voted leave realise they're not going to get any of the things they thought they would.
Brexit .... My thoughts... on 18:56 - Jun 27 by kensalriser
Shitstorm has only just begun, Loftboy. We will have a recession leading to serious civil unrest as many who voted leave realise they're not going to get any of the things they thought they would.
Along the lines of my fears. Recession is now a given. According to an IoD survey, 36% of SME businesses have said they have already cut planned investment, and bigger businesses almost certain to follow suit until uncertainty of where the UK goes from here is resolved. We'll be lucky to see the right side of things economically in the next 7-10 years IMO.
If anyone thinks Boris or whoever oversees the renegotiations will be able to fiddle around on the terms of immigration controls and open borders in return for trade deals without a serious increase in civil disorder against "immigrants", I fear they are sadly mistaken. That genie has gotten out of the bottle and smashed it to pieces.
This country, far from having "Taken Control Back", is far more likely to spiral out of control.
I heard Cameron saying in the Commons today that it will be down to the next government to work out the various scenarios arising from EU negotiations and clearly setting out which of these will work best for Britain. It's a shame his government hadn't done the same for the scenarios arising out of voting Leave and put them forward as part of his Remain campaign.
[Post edited 27 Jun 2016 19:58]
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Brexit .... My thoughts... on 23:25 - Jun 27 with 2896 views
Brexit .... My thoughts... on 18:32 - Jun 27 by johncharles
Not everyone who disagrees with you is naive. Been reading about the Bilderberg group for years. I'm also well aware of the concentration of the world's in a small percentage of people and I hate it and sign petition and all that. But we have more chance of breaking the strangle hold the old Etonians have on the politics of this country by staying in the EU. Bet the Etonians boaters were thrown in the air when the leave vote came in. By the way, do you feel at all responsible for the blatant lie that got your side past the post ? Will be signing the petition calling for the Leave group to stand by their promise to give £50 million a week to the NHS ?
Why would I feel responsible for a lie I had nothing to do with? If you bothered to read my many posts on here pre and post vote you would know that I was not remotely interested in what Boris, Gove et al had to say, why would I listen to them? I made it quite clear that they are just puppets being placed in the Leave camp as the Bilderberg/Old Etonian representatives and that the removing/replacing of them would be a mere beginning in what was required to get us anywhere.
My vote was not about the short term options offered up to me by the establishment, one Etonian Bullingdon Boy over another.
I have a couple of genuine questions for you. How would we have a greater chance of true democracy and the chance to free ourselves from the shackles of Elite control by staying in the EU? If you've been reading about the Bilderbergs for years how have you come to the conclusion that they don't control the highly undemocratic, bullying institution that is the EU? They are all over it!!
If the Etonians/Bilderbergers are more likely to lose their grip over us with a Remain vote how come they, their puppets and ALL OF THEIR INSTITUTIONS campaigned to Remain. Dave, George, Bank of England, Goldman Sachs, IMF, Global Corporations, Blair, Major, Obama etc etc etc?
I have never pretended that Boris represents me, are you really trying to claim that despite our watching the decimation of our communities' services, the selling off (at cut price to their mates) of a our national services, the drastic cutting of benefits leading to the rise of poverty and food bank use and the promise of further Austerity that a vote for Dave and the current system would have made things better. When and how?
At least out we have a chance, however slim, to have the type of representatives and governance that I'm sure you and I would both like to see. How can the handing over of ever increasing amounts of our sovereignty be a better future than that?
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Brexit .... My thoughts... on 23:50 - Jun 27 with 2873 views
Brexit .... My thoughts... on 23:25 - Jun 27 by 1BobbyHazell
Why would I feel responsible for a lie I had nothing to do with? If you bothered to read my many posts on here pre and post vote you would know that I was not remotely interested in what Boris, Gove et al had to say, why would I listen to them? I made it quite clear that they are just puppets being placed in the Leave camp as the Bilderberg/Old Etonian representatives and that the removing/replacing of them would be a mere beginning in what was required to get us anywhere.
My vote was not about the short term options offered up to me by the establishment, one Etonian Bullingdon Boy over another.
I have a couple of genuine questions for you. How would we have a greater chance of true democracy and the chance to free ourselves from the shackles of Elite control by staying in the EU? If you've been reading about the Bilderbergs for years how have you come to the conclusion that they don't control the highly undemocratic, bullying institution that is the EU? They are all over it!!
If the Etonians/Bilderbergers are more likely to lose their grip over us with a Remain vote how come they, their puppets and ALL OF THEIR INSTITUTIONS campaigned to Remain. Dave, George, Bank of England, Goldman Sachs, IMF, Global Corporations, Blair, Major, Obama etc etc etc?
I have never pretended that Boris represents me, are you really trying to claim that despite our watching the decimation of our communities' services, the selling off (at cut price to their mates) of a our national services, the drastic cutting of benefits leading to the rise of poverty and food bank use and the promise of further Austerity that a vote for Dave and the current system would have made things better. When and how?
At least out we have a chance, however slim, to have the type of representatives and governance that I'm sure you and I would both like to see. How can the handing over of ever increasing amounts of our sovereignty be a better future than that?
But the Leave vote would never have won without the BIG LIE yet say you're not remotely interested in what Boris and his chums had to say. The end justifies the means ? How very Machiavellian.
Strong and stable my arse.
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Brexit .... My thoughts... on 00:19 - Jun 28 with 2857 views
Brexit .... My thoughts... on 23:50 - Jun 27 by johncharles
But the Leave vote would never have won without the BIG LIE yet say you're not remotely interested in what Boris and his chums had to say. The end justifies the means ? How very Machiavellian.
No, I have far more integrity than that. I made it quite clear pre vote that Boris and chums were wholly untrustable. If that's all you've got for me after all that I wrote, I guess our conversation is over.
If you want to answer any of my questions anytime and actually respond to what I have said as opposed to what people who never have and never will represent my views have said then please feel free to do so.
Lucky for you Dave, George and Goldman Sachs would never lie to the people.
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Brexit .... My thoughts... on 00:24 - Jun 28 with 2856 views
Brexit .... My thoughts... on 11:02 - Jun 27 by londonscottish
I was at my first work meeting this morning discussing the fallout from Brexit and I mentioned that in 1992 crash my friends in the construction industry were hit first. The cranes in Canary Wharf stopped almost immediately and the P45's flowed a few days later
My colleague turned to me and told me his sister was due to start today on a major project in York to knock down and rebuild the old goods yards behind the station. The project was funded by EU and UK government money.
I use the past tense as she was told on Friday not to bother turning up on Monday and the project and her job no longer exist.
It's starting.....
On the positive, another colleague did suggest that maybe the EU will wake up and offer the UK something major to stop the contagion spreading across a host of other countries.
Not much consolation to the newly-redundant people of York but a glimmer of hope.
Wondering why this project was annexed? We are still contributing to the eu, we are still members and presumably are still getting grants from them? If it was uk government money that was pulled, that was a bloody quick move.
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Brexit .... My thoughts... on 07:54 - Jun 28 with 2774 views
Brexit .... My thoughts... on 11:36 - Jun 27 by bob566
sorry but I don't have the time to read all thirty pages but I caught the end of something on irish radio saying that the French want to move the immigrant camps to kent or something like that now that you are out of the EU. Is that right. Can they do that. They don't want to take on all those immigrants that they have currently in Calais. So what happens there. Do the French put them all on the Eurostar and they get off at the uk exit and start makeshift camps there.
There's certainly moves afoot to do just that. The Mayor of Calais and a French government minister have both suggested cancelling the Le Touquet agreement and getting the immigrants processed on the English side of La Manche.
Don't think it will happen. Yet.
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one's lifetime." (Mark Twain)
Find me on twitter @derbyhoop and now on Bluesky
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Brexit .... My thoughts... on 08:57 - Jun 28 with 2726 views
Brexit .... My thoughts... on 00:24 - Jun 28 by distortR
Wondering why this project was annexed? We are still contributing to the eu, we are still members and presumably are still getting grants from them? If it was uk government money that was pulled, that was a bloody quick move.
I don't know the details - it's just been kicked into the long grass.
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