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Remain With or Leave the EU on 17:10 - Jun 22 by A_Fans_Dad
What has a discussion about our democracy and Sovereignty got to do with xenophibia?
It has been explained that the eu is a democracy and in some ways more democratic than the UK.
But your statement "The PEOPLE of the UK can vote out everybody in Westminster, they CANNOT vote out any more of the MEP's than all those representing the UK (73) and you know it. "
Shows that you only value the votes of UK citizens,.and you do not trust the voters of other eu nations
Remain With or Leave the EU on 17:00 - Jun 22 by Apollo
(a) Terrorism - From an article in today's Guardian which supports my view:
"Rob Wainwright, the director of Europol, said leaving the EU meant the UK would become “a second-tier member of our club” and risked losing access to a vital European security database used by British police every day.
Brexit “has the potential to harm the UK’s ability to fight terrorism and crime, because of the extent to which police co-operation information systems and other capabilities in the EU have become embedded in the [British] police community and, to a lesser extent, the intelligence community”.
Wainwright, a former MI5 analyst who was born in Carmarthen, has led Europol since 2009."
(b) Mass migration is well understood to refer to the mass movement into Europe of those displaced by war, poverty and civil disorder and in search of a better life. Leaving the EU will do nothing to improve the UK's ability to respond to this problem. Indeed, it will very likely make things worse as we cease to participate in collaborative efforts to manage the flows of determined and desperate people.
By leaving the EU we may, of course, be able to reduce the flow of skilled and energetic EU migrants who are net contributors to the UK economy. The price we pay for that will be lost access to the single market. This, as almost all reputable economists maintain, will contribute to higher unemployment and lower growth. For further evidence on this see my post earlier today on the joint LSE, IFS & NIESR report on the economic harm which will be caused by Brexit.
(c) Climate change. Much of the most promising scientific research concerning the challenge of climate change -e.g. our need to produce and consume energy in less damaging ways - is not only sponsored by the EU but also involves collaboration between scientists across Europe. This applies, in fact, across the whole spectrum of science research. So it is no surprise that the UK's leading scientists are overwhelmingly against Brexit because it will very likely damage UK science research.
For supporting evidence see, for example, the letter in The Times on 10 March 2016 in which 150 Royal Society Fellows, the cream of UK science, warn of the potentially disastrous impact of Brexit on UK science: ( http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/politics/article4709730.ece)
a. Why do you think that our communication about terrorists with other EU countries will stop if we leave the EU? A "Second tier member of our club", sorry but he has that back to front, the greatest Security specialists in the western world are the USA & the UK. It has been patently obvious from the atrocities that have recently occurred across Europe that their "Security" is sadly lacking, especially the movement of their home grown Terrorists moving back & forth between Pakistan, Siria, Iraq and Europe.
b. The Economic Migrants currently flooding in to the EU are not flooding in to the UK for 2 good reasons. 1. they are coming via Southern and Eastern Europe. 2. there is this thing called the Channel between us and the rest of Europe. However once they are accepted as EU Citizens as Merkel wants them to be, then they can come here as EU Citizens anytime they like.
Do not try and discuss Climate Change on this thread as we have already been there.
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 17:31 - Jun 22 with 1582 views
If say 1m Poles move to Wales (not that they would want to - as all the jobs are in London and the South East) does then Wales essentially become Polish?
Is that really an issue people are people?
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 17:33 - Jun 22 with 1581 views
"Rob Wainwright, the director of Europol, said leaving the EU meant the UK would become “a second-tier member of our club” and risked losing access to a vital European security database used by British police every day.
Wainwright lost credibility with me when he said that Europol's intelligence suggested that terrorists would not use refugee flows to enter Europe. This was directly contradicted a few weeks later by FRONTEX's 2016 risk analysis, which documented in detail how the things Wainwright said would not happen (e.g. two of the Stade de France bombers entering on a refugee boat via Greece) had in fact come to pass.
Remain With or Leave the EU on 17:25 - Jun 22 by sherpajacob
It has been explained that the eu is a democracy and in some ways more democratic than the UK.
But your statement "The PEOPLE of the UK can vote out everybody in Westminster, they CANNOT vote out any more of the MEP's than all those representing the UK (73) and you know it. "
Shows that you only value the votes of UK citizens,.and you do not trust the voters of other eu nations
That is xenophobia
You are trying to lecture me about xenophibia on one of the most xenophobic football forums in the UK! I regularly read "we hate the English" on here, have I ever said that I hate any of the people of the EU? Lisa has accused me of "hating" Obama, I do not disagree that I dislike the man, but that is not hatred. You all throw the word around a lot. Of course I value UK Citizen's votes about the UK more than I do anybody else, if that is your idea of xenophobia then that is entirely your opinion and you are welcome to it. Are you saying that all those posters on here complaining about decisions made in Westminster are not also xenophobic then?
[Post edited 22 Jun 2016 17:41]
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 18:20 - Jun 22 with 1499 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 17:22 - Jun 22 by AnotherJohn
The existence of QMV clearly undermines UK sovereignty in key policy areas. If there is a majority in the Council for a policy in an area where it has 'competence' then it becomes the sovereign body - not the UK Parliament. Juncker himself has said that of course a transfer of sovereignty is involved. To me that completely undermines the argument you have been making. Wittering on about 'grown up' policy processes is neither here nor there.
The reason I am "wittering on" is because the context is important. Also, QMVs are used in an institution that is just one of the three decision-making bodies at the European Union.
I genuinely believe that if you really look at the EU, it's policy making process is far more democratic than ours. I understand that your point about "sovereignty" still stands, but if you're looking for virtual veto power at every opportunity when it comes to UK policy, then you'll have a tough time applying the same standards to other treaties and organisations we are signed up to.
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 18:27 - Jun 22 with 1486 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 17:33 - Jun 22 by AnotherJohn
(Cut from long post above to save space)
"Rob Wainwright, the director of Europol, said leaving the EU meant the UK would become “a second-tier member of our club” and risked losing access to a vital European security database used by British police every day.
Wainwright lost credibility with me when he said that Europol's intelligence suggested that terrorists would not use refugee flows to enter Europe. This was directly contradicted a few weeks later by FRONTEX's 2016 risk analysis, which documented in detail how the things Wainwright said would not happen (e.g. two of the Stade de France bombers entering on a refugee boat via Greece) had in fact come to pass.
Anyway the hour of decision is near - so I will withdraw from the fray.
Wainwright's alarm about the adverse impact of Brexit on fighting terrorism and international crime is shared by many leading experts. Here, for example, are the views of Dame Pauline Neville Jones, former chair of the Joint Intelligence Committee:
"Where I think those who want us to leave the EU get it seriously wrong is on border control and police cooperation. As regards borders, the central claim is that if we left the EU we would be better able to keep terrorists out of Britain ... This really is nonsense .... The irony is that if we left the EU, our border control could well actually deteriorate. The control we conduct in Calais or Paris, in relation to the Channel tunnel and the Eurostar, would be at severe risk following Brexit, with the likely result that the Calais migrant camp would establish itself in Kent.
The aim of border control policy is to push the point of control as far from a country’s physical shores as possible : for instance to foreign airports, so that we can prevent undesirable individuals ever getting on a plane to the UK. EU cooperation underpins this, and it would be a serious security mistake to create a situation where many more people were able to cross into the UK in the first place."
Remain With or Leave the EU on 17:25 - Jun 22 by sherpajacob
It has been explained that the eu is a democracy and in some ways more democratic than the UK.
But your statement "The PEOPLE of the UK can vote out everybody in Westminster, they CANNOT vote out any more of the MEP's than all those representing the UK (73) and you know it. "
Shows that you only value the votes of UK citizens,.and you do not trust the voters of other eu nations
That is xenophobia
Are you feeling ok? Go have a lay down.
I don't understand how not trusting the Turks makes anyone xenophobic, it's what everyone's done since the dawn of time
Remain With or Leave the EU on 17:25 - Jun 22 by A_Fans_Dad
a. Why do you think that our communication about terrorists with other EU countries will stop if we leave the EU? A "Second tier member of our club", sorry but he has that back to front, the greatest Security specialists in the western world are the USA & the UK. It has been patently obvious from the atrocities that have recently occurred across Europe that their "Security" is sadly lacking, especially the movement of their home grown Terrorists moving back & forth between Pakistan, Siria, Iraq and Europe.
b. The Economic Migrants currently flooding in to the EU are not flooding in to the UK for 2 good reasons. 1. they are coming via Southern and Eastern Europe. 2. there is this thing called the Channel between us and the rest of Europe. However once they are accepted as EU Citizens as Merkel wants them to be, then they can come here as EU Citizens anytime they like.
Do not try and discuss Climate Change on this thread as we have already been there.
(a) On border control, see my above response to AnotherJohn .
(b) I was not discussing climate change itself but the damaging impact of Brexit on UK science research, including research to deal with the challenges of climate change. UK science is hugely successful. Surely, Brexiters too should be alarmed when 150 Royal Society scientists warn of the the dangers to UK science of leaving the EU.
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 19:00 - Jun 22 with 1446 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 18:43 - Jun 22 by Apollo
(a) On border control, see my above response to AnotherJohn .
(b) I was not discussing climate change itself but the damaging impact of Brexit on UK science research, including research to deal with the challenges of climate change. UK science is hugely successful. Surely, Brexiters too should be alarmed when 150 Royal Society scientists warn of the the dangers to UK science of leaving the EU.
a. you might well believe what she said. "The aim of border control policy is to push the point of control as far from a country’s physical shores as possible :" The problem is as I explained when Terrorists mascarading as Migrants are accepted in to the EU, they are no longer "Migrants" or classed as terrorists and just drive, fly or come across on a ferry or train as any normal EU citizen can. What good your border control against supposedly normal EU citizens, have you never heard of "Sleepers"? Would we have been able to stop any of the Terrorists that hit France over the last year as they ceratinly couldn't?
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 19:16 - Jun 22 with 1429 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 17:41 - Jun 22 by A_Fans_Dad
You are trying to lecture me about xenophibia on one of the most xenophobic football forums in the UK! I regularly read "we hate the English" on here, have I ever said that I hate any of the people of the EU? Lisa has accused me of "hating" Obama, I do not disagree that I dislike the man, but that is not hatred. You all throw the word around a lot. Of course I value UK Citizen's votes about the UK more than I do anybody else, if that is your idea of xenophobia then that is entirely your opinion and you are welcome to it. Are you saying that all those posters on here complaining about decisions made in Westminster are not also xenophobic then?
[Post edited 22 Jun 2016 17:41]
I agree that it's not xenophobic to want to make 100% of your own laws. That is just an opinion that someone can hold, it doesn't necessarily mean that dislike foreigners etc etc.
I don't share that opinion that we should leave, however
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 19:20 - Jun 22 with 1423 views
270,000 migrants came here last year apparently, we surely can't sustain that, that's without the supposed cost of staying in the EU, Turkey are poised to join the EU as well, god knows what'll happen then.
Remain With or Leave the EU on 17:41 - Jun 22 by A_Fans_Dad
You are trying to lecture me about xenophibia on one of the most xenophobic football forums in the UK! I regularly read "we hate the English" on here, have I ever said that I hate any of the people of the EU? Lisa has accused me of "hating" Obama, I do not disagree that I dislike the man, but that is not hatred. You all throw the word around a lot. Of course I value UK Citizen's votes about the UK more than I do anybody else, if that is your idea of xenophobia then that is entirely your opinion and you are welcome to it. Are you saying that all those posters on here complaining about decisions made in Westminster are not also xenophobic then?
[Post edited 22 Jun 2016 17:41]
Did I?
Where?
I may have done, but can't recall doing so.
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 19:25 - Jun 22 with 1411 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 19:20 - Jun 22 by max936
270,000 migrants came here last year apparently, we surely can't sustain that, that's without the supposed cost of staying in the EU, Turkey are poised to join the EU as well, god knows what'll happen then.
Loads of Kebab houses opening up.
POSTER OF THE YEAR 2013.
PROUD RECIPIENT OF THE SECOND PLANET SWANS LIFETIME ACHIEVEMENT AWARD.
Remain With or Leave the EU on 19:20 - Jun 22 by max936
270,000 migrants came here last year apparently, we surely can't sustain that, that's without the supposed cost of staying in the EU, Turkey are poised to join the EU as well, god knows what'll happen then.
There's no way Turkey will join the EU Max, just a scare tactic from leave, I'm a remain, Bank of England, Major industry, armed forces, all can't be wrong, the pound will go through the floor if we exit, much more expensive for your holiday
You give it out, you take it back it`s all part of the game
Remain With or Leave the EU on 19:29 - Jun 22 by raynor94
There's no way Turkey will join the EU Max, just a scare tactic from leave, I'm a remain, Bank of England, Major industry, armed forces, all can't be wrong, the pound will go through the floor if we exit, much more expensive for your holiday
I repeat my earlier point. What exactly is objectionable - in a Welsh context - to 6% of our population having been born outside the UK? On top of that, very little of the EU migration (48% of which coming from the original 15 countries) is coming to Wales. So what's the problem exactly?
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 19:41 - Jun 22 with 1364 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 19:20 - Jun 22 by max936
270,000 migrants came here last year apparently, we surely can't sustain that, that's without the supposed cost of staying in the EU, Turkey are poised to join the EU as well, god knows what'll happen then.
More than half of them came from outside the EU. And Turkey won't be a member fir decades, if ever.
Remain With or Leave the EU on 19:29 - Jun 22 by raynor94
There's no way Turkey will join the EU Max, just a scare tactic from leave, I'm a remain, Bank of England, Major industry, armed forces, all can't be wrong, the pound will go through the floor if we exit, much more expensive for your holiday
It's more likely Erdogan will encourage the Kurds to take up the EU visas and will solve a big problem for him.
Remain With or Leave the EU on 19:35 - Jun 22 by BytholWyn
I repeat my earlier point. What exactly is objectionable - in a Welsh context - to 6% of our population having been born outside the UK? On top of that, very little of the EU migration (48% of which coming from the original 15 countries) is coming to Wales. So what's the problem exactly?
Your question will fall on deaf ears....
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 19:53 - Jun 22 with 1338 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 19:41 - Jun 22 by exiledclaseboy
More than half of them came from outside the EU. And Turkey won't be a member fir decades, if ever.
"And Turkey won't be a member fir decades, if ever"
I wouldn't be that sure of that, after hearing Cameron refusing 3 times to say he would use his veto to stop Turkey having visa free movement in the EU,. Plus the EU are giving Turkey over 350 million euros to help them conform to EU regulations in order that they can join......someones telling porkies
Remain With or Leave the EU on 19:53 - Jun 22 by Flashberryjack
"And Turkey won't be a member fir decades, if ever"
I wouldn't be that sure of that, after hearing Cameron refusing 3 times to say he would use his veto to stop Turkey having visa free movement in the EU,. Plus the EU are giving Turkey over 350 million euros to help them conform to EU regulations in order that they can join......someones telling porkies
It's still decades away, even with the "accelerated" accession. And of course every single existing member state has a right to veto Turkey's membership.
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