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Remain With or Leave the EU on 12:11 - Jun 22 by nice_to_michu
No. You can vote out 1 of the 650 MPs in Westminster (0.16% of MPs). You cannot vote out a government, you can just hope that the candidate you voted for is also a member of the largest party.
At the European Parliament, we vote for 1 out of 751 MEPs in Brussels 0.13% of MEPs). Again, you can hope that your MEP is also in alliance with other like-minded MEPs and form a coalition to become the majority. That is exactly the same as Westminster.
As for who makes the "real decisions", you have the European Council (our ELECTED Heads of State e.g. David Cameron) setting the legislative agenda for the year.
Then you have the EU Commission (whom are appointed by our elected government) who are the executive/cabinet and send policy proposals to the Coincil of Ministers and the EU Parliament.
The Council of Ministers (made up of our ELECTED cabinet members e.g. Business Secretary Sajid Javid) that analyse the details of a policy and must give their blessing if the proposal is to proceed.
Lastly, you have the EU Parliament which is obviously ELECTED once every few years. They have co-decision making powers with the ELECTED Council of Ministers, and will form committees to alter policy proposals or just halt them altogether. Nothing becomes law without the approval of both the Parliament of the Council.
The EU Commission is not directly elected, but neither is our cabinet. Not one person in the UK elected Nicky Morgan or Theresa May to their cabinet roles, they were appointed. So why you are so hung up on that I don't know.
Complete and utter bullshit. The PEOPLE of the UK can vote out everybody in Westminster, they CANNOT vote out any more of the MEP's than all those representing the UK (73) and you know it. They cannot control the other 670 odd MEP.
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 15:30 - Jun 22 with 1492 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 12:41 - Jun 22 by Apollo
Yes, and so many of the greatest challenges we face -terrorism, mass migration, climate change and the risk of another economic crash- are challenges that require more not less collective action and solidarity between nations. The days when the UK could impress it's will on the world through unilateral action are long over.
The whole point about 2 of the things you mention, terrorism & mass migration are the 2 very things that we can control by not being in the EU. Nobody can control "Cliamte Change".
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 15:35 - Jun 22 with 1488 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 15:27 - Jun 22 by A_Fans_Dad
Complete and utter bullshit. The PEOPLE of the UK can vote out everybody in Westminster, they CANNOT vote out any more of the MEP's than all those representing the UK (73) and you know it. They cannot control the other 670 odd MEP.
This shouldn't be hard to understand.
You vote for one MP, who represents one constituency. You have no control over who gets elected to the constituency next to yours.
You have absolutely no control as to who will form a government, be part of the cabinet, or who will be appointed to our Upper Chamber (the House of Lords).
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 15:35 - Jun 22 with 1488 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 15:30 - Jun 22 by A_Fans_Dad
The whole point about 2 of the things you mention, terrorism & mass migration are the 2 very things that we can control by not being in the EU. Nobody can control "Cliamte Change".
Yes and climate change is made up and not a real thing anyway. A bit like god.
The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
Remain With or Leave the EU on 15:35 - Jun 22 by nice_to_michu
This shouldn't be hard to understand.
You vote for one MP, who represents one constituency. You have no control over who gets elected to the constituency next to yours.
You have absolutely no control as to who will form a government, be part of the cabinet, or who will be appointed to our Upper Chamber (the House of Lords).
You miss the point entirely as you always do. Ir does not matter what I can do at the individual level, it is the will of the whole. You deliberately try to equate what individuals can do in the UK against what the "State" can do in the EU. The "State" can not outvote, remove or touch in any way those representing the other states. Only all the states acting together can do that as far as MEPs are concerned, but not the rest. Can the UK remove Juncker or any of the 5 presidents?
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 15:46 - Jun 22 with 1469 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 15:27 - Jun 22 by A_Fans_Dad
Complete and utter bullshit. The PEOPLE of the UK can vote out everybody in Westminster, they CANNOT vote out any more of the MEP's than all those representing the UK (73) and you know it. They cannot control the other 670 odd MEP.
The one thing this whole sordid mess of a campaign should have made clear is that there is no consensus whatsoever in the views of the 'people of the UK'.
If you are so concerned about the wishes of the people that live closest to you then you should by definition believe also that the UK is itself undemocratic (as it doesn't reflect the views of 'the people of Wales') and that the Welsh Government is undemocratic because it quite transparently doesn't represent the views of the 'people of Swansea'.
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 15:47 - Jun 22 with 1467 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 15:42 - Jun 22 by A_Fans_Dad
You miss the point entirely as you always do. Ir does not matter what I can do at the individual level, it is the will of the whole. You deliberately try to equate what individuals can do in the UK against what the "State" can do in the EU. The "State" can not outvote, remove or touch in any way those representing the other states. Only all the states acting together can do that as far as MEPs are concerned, but not the rest. Can the UK remove Juncker or any of the 5 presidents?
The will of the whole could vote out all MEPs if it wanted to. It just happens that the whole comprises all Member States in this case. They are there through a democratic process.
It's exactly the same as in the UK where, for example, we couldn't vote out the SNP members from parliament, but the Scots could.
Remain With or Leave the EU on 15:27 - Jun 22 by A_Fans_Dad
Complete and utter bullshit. The PEOPLE of the UK can vote out everybody in Westminster, they CANNOT vote out any more of the MEP's than all those representing the UK (73) and you know it. They cannot control the other 670 odd MEP.
And to think the other day, a load of brexiters were saying it's not a about xenophobia.
Remain With or Leave the EU on 15:42 - Jun 22 by A_Fans_Dad
You miss the point entirely as you always do. Ir does not matter what I can do at the individual level, it is the will of the whole. You deliberately try to equate what individuals can do in the UK against what the "State" can do in the EU. The "State" can not outvote, remove or touch in any way those representing the other states. Only all the states acting together can do that as far as MEPs are concerned, but not the rest. Can the UK remove Juncker or any of the 5 presidents?
I miss the point entirely again, do I? Or is because you move the goal posts every time you don't like where a discussion is heading...
It must just be me.
As Lisa was saying, of voters in the last general election, a majority in Wales voted for Labour, but instead we are governed by a Conservative Prime Minister, David Cameron. According to your reasoning, the will of the people in Wales spoke, and we said we don't want Cameron. So is the logical conclusion to have a referendum and vote Leave Britain?
Please explain how this is any different to what your argument is regarding the EU.
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 16:02 - Jun 22 with 1429 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 15:46 - Jun 22 by londonlisa2001
The one thing this whole sordid mess of a campaign should have made clear is that there is no consensus whatsoever in the views of the 'people of the UK'.
If you are so concerned about the wishes of the people that live closest to you then you should by definition believe also that the UK is itself undemocratic (as it doesn't reflect the views of 'the people of Wales') and that the Welsh Government is undemocratic because it quite transparently doesn't represent the views of the 'people of Swansea'.
You state "there is no consensus whatsoever in the views of the 'people of the UK'. How do you personally know anything about it? Until the Concensus of the whole has been established nobody can know, ie after the referendum, that will be the concensus. You cannot establish a census by a few interviews or debates, or listening to the mass media.
Democracy "a system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives:
Read it, it says the WHOLE POPULATION, what is so hard to understand about that, it is the will of the people as a whole not of the individual. I am not the slightest concerned about "the wishes of the people that live closest to me" if they do not represent what is considered to be the best for the whole country. Where does it say anything about the "area" you come from?
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 16:08 - Jun 22 with 1411 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 16:02 - Jun 22 by A_Fans_Dad
You state "there is no consensus whatsoever in the views of the 'people of the UK'. How do you personally know anything about it? Until the Concensus of the whole has been established nobody can know, ie after the referendum, that will be the concensus. You cannot establish a census by a few interviews or debates, or listening to the mass media.
Democracy "a system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives:
Read it, it says the WHOLE POPULATION, what is so hard to understand about that, it is the will of the people as a whole not of the individual. I am not the slightest concerned about "the wishes of the people that live closest to me" if they do not represent what is considered to be the best for the whole country. Where does it say anything about the "area" you come from?
The "area" is your constituency. We don't have direct democracy, it is a representative democracy.
Also, it's interesting that you accept there will be a "consensus" after the referendum. The likely scenario of course is that one side will only win by a few percentage points (maybe 52% to 48% for example).
However, I thought you would have argued that a "consensus" would need to be much higher than that given your disregard for the "consensus" that appears to exist at a much greater level in the climate science debate.
I digress. Let's stay on topic
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 16:16 - Jun 22 with 1398 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 16:02 - Jun 22 by A_Fans_Dad
You state "there is no consensus whatsoever in the views of the 'people of the UK'. How do you personally know anything about it? Until the Concensus of the whole has been established nobody can know, ie after the referendum, that will be the concensus. You cannot establish a census by a few interviews or debates, or listening to the mass media.
Democracy "a system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives:
Read it, it says the WHOLE POPULATION, what is so hard to understand about that, it is the will of the people as a whole not of the individual. I am not the slightest concerned about "the wishes of the people that live closest to me" if they do not represent what is considered to be the best for the whole country. Where does it say anything about the "area" you come from?
what AFD is essentially saying is that he values democracy, unless it's a democracy in which foreigners are involved.
Remain With or Leave the EU on 16:02 - Jun 22 by A_Fans_Dad
You state "there is no consensus whatsoever in the views of the 'people of the UK'. How do you personally know anything about it? Until the Concensus of the whole has been established nobody can know, ie after the referendum, that will be the concensus. You cannot establish a census by a few interviews or debates, or listening to the mass media.
Democracy "a system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives:
Read it, it says the WHOLE POPULATION, what is so hard to understand about that, it is the will of the people as a whole not of the individual. I am not the slightest concerned about "the wishes of the people that live closest to me" if they do not represent what is considered to be the best for the whole country. Where does it say anything about the "area" you come from?
What on earth are you talking about?
Are you saying we have to wait until tomorrow to find out that the population is hugely split over this? Really?
You obviously don't understand the implication of your own position. The definition you have just given of democracy applies within the EU - it's just that you want the 'Whole Population' to be limited to the UK. Hence i asked, why the UK? Why not Wales? Or Swansea?
I can't be bothered. The day you stop channelling James Delingpole on absolutely everything I may listen. We've had the EU, climate change and Obama already - I wonder what his next book will be about?
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 16:23 - Jun 22 with 1387 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 16:08 - Jun 22 by nice_to_michu
The "area" is your constituency. We don't have direct democracy, it is a representative democracy.
Also, it's interesting that you accept there will be a "consensus" after the referendum. The likely scenario of course is that one side will only win by a few percentage points (maybe 52% to 48% for example).
However, I thought you would have argued that a "consensus" would need to be much higher than that given your disregard for the "consensus" that appears to exist at a much greater level in the climate science debate.
I digress. Let's stay on topic
Lisa introduced the word "concensus", not me. It means con·sen·sus (kən-sĕn′səs) n. 1. An opinion or position reached by a group as a whole 2. General agreement or accord: Nowhere does it mention any percentages. You only think that the Climate Scientific concensus is larger, I do not, so we agree to disagree.
In democracy it only requires a "majority".
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 16:32 - Jun 22 with 1373 views
Whatever the merits of the Brexiters in relation to the UK as a whole, when applied specifically to Wales those arguments have little or no merit. Take immigration for example. The proportion of foreign-born residents of Wales in 2011 stood at only 5.5% ( http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/press-releases/changes-migrant-populati I would really like to hear why any person thinks that having around 6% of the population of Wales born outside of the UK is problematical.
On top of this recent EU migration has focussed almost exclusively on the affluent parts of the UK, mainly London and the South-East. Wales and the North-East of England stand out for their comparable low rates of immigration compared to the rest of the UK. So as far as Wales is concerned leaving the EU will have next to no impact.
The other big argument against the EU is that we are net contributors to the EU budget. This may be true for the UK as a whole (although the amount we contribute as a proportion of GDP is very small) - but Wales is a net beneficiary: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36361530
I would really like to hear one factually based argument why Wales will gain anything of significance from us leaving the EU.
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 16:48 - Jun 22 with 1351 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 15:30 - Jun 22 by A_Fans_Dad
The whole point about 2 of the things you mention, terrorism & mass migration are the 2 very things that we can control by not being in the EU. Nobody can control "Cliamte Change".
(a) Terrorism - From an article in today's Guardian which supports my view:
"Rob Wainwright, the director of Europol, said leaving the EU meant the UK would become “a second-tier member of our club” and risked losing access to a vital European security database used by British police every day.
Brexit “has the potential to harm the UK’s ability to fight terrorism and crime, because of the extent to which police co-operation information systems and other capabilities in the EU have become embedded in the [British] police community and, to a lesser extent, the intelligence community”.
Wainwright, a former MI5 analyst who was born in Carmarthen, has led Europol since 2009."
(b) Mass migration is well understood to refer to the mass movement into Europe of those displaced by war, poverty and civil disorder and in search of a better life. Leaving the EU will do nothing to improve the UK's ability to respond to this problem. Indeed, it will very likely make things worse as we cease to participate in collaborative efforts to manage the flows of determined and desperate people.
By leaving the EU we may, of course, be able to reduce the flow of skilled and energetic EU migrants who are net contributors to the UK economy. The price we pay for that will be lost access to the single market. This, as almost all reputable economists maintain, will contribute to higher unemployment and lower growth. For further evidence on this see my post earlier today on the joint LSE, IFS & NIESR report on the economic harm which will be caused by Brexit.
(c) Climate change. Much of the most promising scientific research concerning the challenge of climate change -e.g. our need to produce and consume energy in less damaging ways - is not only sponsored by the EU but also involves collaboration between scientists across Europe. This applies, in fact, across the whole spectrum of science research. So it is no surprise that the UK's leading scientists are overwhelmingly against Brexit because it will very likely damage UK science research.
For supporting evidence see, for example, the letter in The Times on 10 March 2016 in which 150 Royal Society Fellows, the cream of UK science, warn of the potentially disastrous impact of Brexit on UK science: ( http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/politics/article4709730.ece)
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 17:10 - Jun 22 with 1306 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 14:50 - Jun 22 by nice_to_michu
QMVs are part of a grown-up policy-making process.
It is designed to allow for policies to be proposed (not implemented) and passed on to the next stage where there is consensus amongst the 28 member states. It overcomes one country holding the other 27 to ransom over one policy. Given that the vast majority of EU laws influence more than one member state at a time (often it influences all 28 member states), it is arguably undemocratic to allow one member to prevent the passage of a bill that will affect the rest of the Union.
Again, I don't know why people keep bringing up things like "the UK has 29 of 352 votes" as if that is massively unfair. Have you seen how QMV is determined? Do you take issue with their methodology in determining how QMV quotas are designed?
In terms of democracy, the EU embarrasses our own Parliament on so many levels. Neither you nor I can vote for an MP who can veto legislation, nor can that MP declare that a law passed at Westminster will not apply to the Gower, Swansea East or Swansea West constituencies. But, at the EU level, there are numerous ways in which our representatives can veto proposals or opt-out of a particular agreement (e.g. Eurozone, Shengen Zone etc etc).
The existence of QMV clearly undermines UK sovereignty in key policy areas. If there is a majority in the Council for a policy in an area where it has 'competence' then it becomes the sovereign body - not the UK Parliament. Juncker himself has said that of course a transfer of sovereignty is involved. To me that completely undermines the argument you have been making. Wittering on about 'grown up' policy processes is neither here nor there.
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