| Bristol City Match Fred 14:59 - Dec 1 with 41506 views | TheChef |
Fully expecting a defeat, but hope we can put in a decent performance over 90 minutes and get our reward for it. |  |
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| Bristol City Match Fred on 12:56 - Dec 2 with 1435 views | Gloucs_R |
| Bristol City Match Fred on 12:49 - Dec 2 by Northernr |
Like Marc Bircham? |
No. Clint Hill, the man himself.
Never rated Birch a player or coach. Sorry Birch, great guy just didn't do it for me. |  |
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| Bristol City Match Fred on 12:57 - Dec 2 with 1421 views | paulparker |
| Bristol City Match Fred on 12:24 - Dec 2 by Northernr |
I repeat myself but if we're going to start considering who and what is next...
- We keep sacking the manager, things don't improve, it suggests the manager isn't your issue. The budget, wage structure, scouting, recruitment and squad would all be the same.
- Who would want to come here, who we can afford? Eddie Howe is not going to shag you. You're going to end up with somebody who's out of work probably - because we wont want to pay compo and if you're in a job it would have to be pretty bad for you to want to come here - mid-season, cheap, and desperate. That's not an attractive list. Luckily Steve Cotterill just got the Shrewsbury job, but we'd be looking at that level.
- If you want it to be a big departure from Warbs, go back to old school, big bstrds, backbone, arm wrestle etc. This squad is not built for it. There isn't a single player in it that somebody like Pulis would give the time of day. Tear it all up and go down that road, you're looking at another 12-in and out for the next two or three windows, and all the expence and upheaval and problems that's going to entail. Meanwhile, midway through, we'll probably decide we're bored, and want to go for a more progressive, forward thinking, better football style manager which would require another pivot mid-pivot.
- Look for another progressive type to continue 'the journey' and what would really change?
- "Oh clive don't pretend there are only five managers in the whole world, it's an attractive job, if Swansea can get a Steve Cooper why can't we?" Fair enough. At what point under this ownership and management structure have we ever seen any ability to go out and talent scout a manager you haven't heard of before?
Consider the alternatives. It's got to be somebody who wants to come and work with this squad, on one of the worst budgets in the division, who we can afford, and it's our board and management doing the spotting. |
Keith curle
Lee Bowyer
Danny Cowley
Mark Robbins
Paul Cook
Gareth Ainsworth
There’s 6 managers off the top of my head who have had success on limited budgets andante quite progressive , they would see us as a step up as well
I don’t buy this notion that it’s Mark warburton or nothing |  |
| And Bowles is onside, Swinburne has come rushing out of his goal , what can Bowles do here , onto the left foot no, on to the right foot
That’s there that’s two, and that’s Bowles
Brian Moore
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| Bristol City Match Fred on 12:59 - Dec 2 with 1421 views | dm97 |
| Bristol City Match Fred on 12:47 - Dec 2 by CiderwithRsie |
I think it's been a good discussion with sound points made on both sides.
I'm with Clive on the flaws in sacking Warburton but I think we can all see the both the positives and the problems with him, it is about what tools we have to fix it.
Buying a couple of key players might do it, but I doubt we have the funds.
Sacking managers always disrupts and IMO should only be done if either the alternative is near-certain relegation or as part of a plan (i.e. in the close season, after a proper recruitment process started well before the last guy leaves.)
IMO what we should be doing is performance managing Warburton - the DoF ought to be demanding specific improvements and a clear plan to address them, with due notice that failure to make progress before the end of the season is likely to end with dismissal. And probably we ought to be quietly thinking about alternatives if he doesn't improve.
So long as we don't get relegated we would be in a better position to recruit if he completes this season because we will look a better employer and we'll also benefit from the good stuff Warburton does in the meantime. I think our relative financial positron is also slowly improving (if only because everyone else is getting worse faster) |
Given MW is Les and Lee's first genuine appointment, insofar as they ran the process and actually made the decision without shareholder interference (supposedly), this kind of has to go somewhat well for the whole Les-Ramsey-Hall structure to continue.
My biggest fear is shareholders panic, rip the whole thing up and we get another McClaren sequence |  | | |
| Bristol City Match Fred on 12:59 - Dec 2 with 1416 views | Wegerles_Stairs |
| Bristol City Match Fred on 12:24 - Dec 2 by Northernr |
I repeat myself but if we're going to start considering who and what is next...
- We keep sacking the manager, things don't improve, it suggests the manager isn't your issue. The budget, wage structure, scouting, recruitment and squad would all be the same.
- Who would want to come here, who we can afford? Eddie Howe is not going to shag you. You're going to end up with somebody who's out of work probably - because we wont want to pay compo and if you're in a job it would have to be pretty bad for you to want to come here - mid-season, cheap, and desperate. That's not an attractive list. Luckily Steve Cotterill just got the Shrewsbury job, but we'd be looking at that level.
- If you want it to be a big departure from Warbs, go back to old school, big bstrds, backbone, arm wrestle etc. This squad is not built for it. There isn't a single player in it that somebody like Pulis would give the time of day. Tear it all up and go down that road, you're looking at another 12-in and out for the next two or three windows, and all the expence and upheaval and problems that's going to entail. Meanwhile, midway through, we'll probably decide we're bored, and want to go for a more progressive, forward thinking, better football style manager which would require another pivot mid-pivot.
- Look for another progressive type to continue 'the journey' and what would really change?
- "Oh clive don't pretend there are only five managers in the whole world, it's an attractive job, if Swansea can get a Steve Cooper why can't we?" Fair enough. At what point under this ownership and management structure have we ever seen any ability to go out and talent scout a manager you haven't heard of before?
Consider the alternatives. It's got to be somebody who wants to come and work with this squad, on one of the worst budgets in the division, who we can afford, and it's our board and management doing the spotting. |
"At what point under this ownership and management structure have we ever seen any ability to go out and talent scout a manager you haven't heard of before?"
And therein lies the fundamental problem with our club. It would either be a swapsie from the World Cup 2010 sticker album, someone who's hanging out online playing a leaked copy of FIFA 21 with Fernandes, or Spurs' most successful manager of all time (based on his 150% win ratio). |  | | |
| Bristol City Match Fred on 13:00 - Dec 2 with 1408 views | Northernr |
| Bristol City Match Fred on 12:57 - Dec 2 by paulparker |
Keith curle
Lee Bowyer
Danny Cowley
Mark Robbins
Paul Cook
Gareth Ainsworth
There’s 6 managers off the top of my head who have had success on limited budgets andante quite progressive , they would see us as a step up as well
I don’t buy this notion that it’s Mark warburton or nothing |
Well, at least you've named some alternatives, which people rarely do.
Doesn't address the point that we keep changing the manager and nothing gets better though.
And also, apart from Robins, they all play a style of football that isn't suited to the squad we've got, and therefore big player turnover would be required as well. |  | | |
| Bristol City Match Fred on 13:04 - Dec 2 with 1390 views | Myke |
It's actually not that complicated. There is such a fine line between success and failure. Bright scores near the end and there is a different mood around the place and a different conversation on here. I believe Warburton is close to where he wants to be on the budget we have. Last year he recognised that we were going to concede at lot, so got in 2 proven scorers at this level (plus Eze) to combat that. This year we clearly have less prolific strikers and I am sure he was hoping that Dieng and especially Dickie where going to help resolve things at the other end. This is not happening as a result of individual errors game after game, which must be incredibly frustrating for him and his staff. He is not far away, we need to hold firm for now. | | | |
| Bristol City Match Fred on 13:05 - Dec 2 with 1389 views | Gloucs_R |
| Bristol City Match Fred on 13:00 - Dec 2 by Northernr |
Well, at least you've named some alternatives, which people rarely do.
Doesn't address the point that we keep changing the manager and nothing gets better though.
And also, apart from Robins, they all play a style of football that isn't suited to the squad we've got, and therefore big player turnover would be required as well. |
I'm not sure he was suggesting them to be the next manager but merely pointing out that they've done well on budgets more than ours. | |
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| Bristol City Match Fred on 13:18 - Dec 2 with 1345 views | paulparker |
| Bristol City Match Fred on 13:00 - Dec 2 by Northernr |
Well, at least you've named some alternatives, which people rarely do.
Doesn't address the point that we keep changing the manager and nothing gets better though.
And also, apart from Robins, they all play a style of football that isn't suited to the squad we've got, and therefore big player turnover would be required as well. |
Paul cook & lee bowyer teams have played some decent stuff
Don’t get me wrong I’m not for lumping it to the big man but good football is more about passing it around your own 18 yard box ,
People wax lyrical about the past QPR teams of Francis, Warnock, venables, Howe all of those teams played expansive football but they knew how to defend and see games out and those teams were built on small budgets whilst selling players
Warburton has done ok here but I’m finding this shrugging of the shoulders and excuses of lack of concentration a but thin now | |
| And Bowles is onside, Swinburne has come rushing out of his goal , what can Bowles do here , onto the left foot no, on to the right foot
That’s there that’s two, and that’s Bowles
Brian Moore
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| Bristol City Match Fred on 13:22 - Dec 2 with 1338 views | BostonR |
| Bristol City Match Fred on 13:00 - Dec 2 by Northernr |
Well, at least you've named some alternatives, which people rarely do.
Doesn't address the point that we keep changing the manager and nothing gets better though.
And also, apart from Robins, they all play a style of football that isn't suited to the squad we've got, and therefore big player turnover would be required as well. |
Clive, you make a really valid point on style of play.
I am trying to think of a team in the Championship that plays a similar style and all I could think of were Brentford and now they have become more pragmatic. Perhaps the promoted teams are similar, but therein is the challenge and problem. All of those team have greater resources than R's.
I wonder what Paul Warne and Ritchie Barker would do with us? They seem to have improved Rotherham - feel free to shoot me down.
Thing is, what we watched last night has been served up too many times over the past two seasons - something ahs to change. Style or the manager? |  | | |
| Bristol City Match Fred on 13:37 - Dec 2 with 1287 views | Hunterhoop |
| Bristol City Match Fred on 12:47 - Dec 2 by CiderwithRsie |
I think it's been a good discussion with sound points made on both sides.
I'm with Clive on the flaws in sacking Warburton but I think we can all see the both the positives and the problems with him, it is about what tools we have to fix it.
Buying a couple of key players might do it, but I doubt we have the funds.
Sacking managers always disrupts and IMO should only be done if either the alternative is near-certain relegation or as part of a plan (i.e. in the close season, after a proper recruitment process started well before the last guy leaves.)
IMO what we should be doing is performance managing Warburton - the DoF ought to be demanding specific improvements and a clear plan to address them, with due notice that failure to make progress before the end of the season is likely to end with dismissal. And probably we ought to be quietly thinking about alternatives if he doesn't improve.
So long as we don't get relegated we would be in a better position to recruit if he completes this season because we will look a better employer and we'll also benefit from the good stuff Warburton does in the meantime. I think our relative financial positron is also slowly improving (if only because everyone else is getting worse faster) |
That makes sense and is a really well balanced post.
The issue comes with what do we do if going into Jan we’re bottom 3. What meagre budget will be there to spend.
I genuinely hope we aren’t in that position (of course, any fan does), and I don’t actually think we will be (I think Warburton will make some slight improvements and we’ll get a bit more luck), but I do think it is a distinct possibility, and based on what we’ve seen to date, no one should be overly surprised if we are in that position. |  | | |
| Bristol City Match Fred on 13:44 - Dec 2 with 1258 views | Northernr |
| Bristol City Match Fred on 13:18 - Dec 2 by paulparker |
Paul cook & lee bowyer teams have played some decent stuff
Don’t get me wrong I’m not for lumping it to the big man but good football is more about passing it around your own 18 yard box ,
People wax lyrical about the past QPR teams of Francis, Warnock, venables, Howe all of those teams played expansive football but they knew how to defend and see games out and those teams were built on small budgets whilst selling players
Warburton has done ok here but I’m finding this shrugging of the shoulders and excuses of lack of concentration a but thin now |
Yeh agree, please don't think that I'm sitting there last night watching that and thinking "oh well hey ho", I'm climbing the fcking walls as well. | | | |
| Bristol City Match Fred on 13:47 - Dec 2 with 1247 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
One of the benefits of having 32 managers and caretaker managers in 20 years is you get to see how disruptive it is first hand.
I’d say Holloway and Warnock were the only 2 out of those 32 that were worth the disruption. On that basis, and not discounting the frustration of this error prone squad and Warburton’s failings, changing the manager for any other reason than gross misconduct or relegation is too risky.
Even though he never actually said it, Einstein’s famous misattributed quote "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results" comes to mind.
Stick with. |  | | |
| Bristol City Match Fred on 13:51 - Dec 2 with 1229 views | Hunterhoop |
| Bristol City Match Fred on 12:45 - Dec 2 by R_from_afar |
Good points but re. point 2, whilst I personally am not a "purist" and am not fussed about how we play as long as it is effective - I am not bothered if all our goals come from headers by a 6 foot 6 striker who is imperious in the air but couldn't dribble round a traffic cone - a lot of people are and want success and style all at once. That's their perogative.
So, I am with you on this but I suspect others may agree now but be unhappy if we start playing pragmatic football and grinding out wins. |
Very true. But at all stages of being on this MB for 20 something years now, it is wins above style that keep the natives on here happy, and the same is true at LR, with the exception of Paul Hart against Bristol City, where I could understand the response!
And I too enjoy a 6ft 6” centre forward scoring a thunderbastard of a header from a good cross. Don’t understand those that don’t. Thing of beauty! | | | |
| Bristol City Match Fred on 13:51 - Dec 2 with 1229 views | Whip_It |
I don't think we are going to have a problem this season, although we all are apt to panic when we see results going against us as they have been. And talk of replacing Warburton would clearly be a panic move at this stage.
That said, I would like him to get us over this problem we have with resilience. It occurred to me as I was nodding off to sleep last night that of our back 5, only Barbet has any kind of Championship experience - the rest are babies, or Scottish. Further forward, take away Carroll and we rely on Bright or Chair for experience. That's what's lacking for me, and I think we need to be patient, because I don't want to replace some of our fantastic young players with old hacks like Martin, Brunt or Mariappa. But their experience was what helped that very average side get the points last night. | | | |
| Bristol City Match Fred on 13:55 - Dec 2 with 1211 views | BrianMcCarthy |
Very good discussion, folks.
Can I just say that I have thought about our current situation, mulled it over, picked it apart and analysed it to within an inch of its life. And I haven't a clue. |  |
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| Bristol City Match Fred on 13:55 - Dec 2 with 1209 views | TacticalR |
@ted_hendrix 'We'll just continue letting in 2 goals per game in the vain hope that eventually we'll start scoring 3 goals per game and actually start winning games for once, (scoring 3 goals per game-LOL) sorry got a bit carried away there.'
Actually, I am not sure that this is such a vain hope. Or to put it another way, maybe it's our only hope, because we are back to conceding 2 goals a game.
Sherlock Holmes: 'How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?' |  |
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| Bristol City Match Fred on 14:00 - Dec 2 with 1193 views | golborne |
It's as ever fine margins. We've picked up 1 point from the last 9 available, but it could quite easily have been 9 points picked up. This against 3 sides who sit in the Top 6.
For me, the first 40 mins last night was great to watch and the best we've played all season. Ball and Wallace both fall asleep and we're pegged back. Their manager makes negative changes at half time to try and keep what they miraculously have. Our star defender then gifts them the opportunity to break and go ahead, which they duly take. Whilst Sinton was waxing about them dominating in the 2nd half, that was far from the truth. Dominate in terms of suppression, yes, but they really offered little going forward, whilst we were constantly tapping away at the brick wall. In the 2nd half they had me on the edge of my seat once and that was for the goal. Whilst we were starkly different in the 2nd period, we had me on the edge of my seat 4 times. Bright had two great chances, Willock one and Bonne one. You can say it's a results game and long for a Warnock, Pulis, or Wild Thing (what a disaster that would be..) but we are playing some great football and as a life long Rangers fan this is what really matters, rather than winning shit (Brian Clough was right!). We won't go down and I'm sure at some point we'll gel. The defence have been great at times this season, but unfortunately we've been less effective, offensively in those games, but it will click at times, I'm sure. | | | |
| Bristol City Match Fred on 14:09 - Dec 2 with 1163 views | PinnerPaul |
| Bristol City Match Fred on 20:14 - Dec 1 by Hayesender |
Why was Dickie booked? |
??? Hauled his man to the floor - USB - 'Breaking up a promising attack.' | | | |
| Bristol City Match Fred on 14:10 - Dec 2 with 1154 views | paulparker |
| Bristol City Match Fred on 13:44 - Dec 2 by Northernr |
Yeh agree, please don't think that I'm sitting there last night watching that and thinking "oh well hey ho", I'm climbing the fcking walls as well. |
I’m glad someone is as p1ssed off as me and see all is not rosy in the garden of total football ,
I can take losing to a decent side but those games against Coventry , Brentford and now Bristol City have been enough to test a saints patience | |
| And Bowles is onside, Swinburne has come rushing out of his goal , what can Bowles do here , onto the left foot no, on to the right foot
That’s there that’s two, and that’s Bowles
Brian Moore
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| Bristol City Match Fred on 14:19 - Dec 2 with 1131 views | Northernr |
| Bristol City Match Fred on 14:09 - Dec 2 by PinnerPaul |
??? Hauled his man to the floor - USB - 'Breaking up a promising attack.' |
Referee was excellent last night I thought. | | | |
| Bristol City Match Fred on 14:28 - Dec 2 with 1111 views | TheChef |
| Bristol City Match Fred on 13:51 - Dec 2 by Whip_It |
I don't think we are going to have a problem this season, although we all are apt to panic when we see results going against us as they have been. And talk of replacing Warburton would clearly be a panic move at this stage.
That said, I would like him to get us over this problem we have with resilience. It occurred to me as I was nodding off to sleep last night that of our back 5, only Barbet has any kind of Championship experience - the rest are babies, or Scottish. Further forward, take away Carroll and we rely on Bright or Chair for experience. That's what's lacking for me, and I think we need to be patient, because I don't want to replace some of our fantastic young players with old hacks like Martin, Brunt or Mariappa. But their experience was what helped that very average side get the points last night. |
More experience really is key. I was looking at our starting line up last night:
Dieng (new to regular 1st team football)
Kakay (new to regular 1st team football)
Dickie (new to the Championship)
Barbet (Championship player)
Wallace (new to the Championship)
Carroll (Championship player)
Ball (some Championship experience?)
Willock (new to the Championship)
Chair (Championship player)
BOS (Championship player)
Dykes (new to the Championship)
So that's four out of eleven with some kind of regular Championship experience, and I'd say only Carroll out of those has played regularly over the last two or three seasons.
It's a work in progress, if we can survive this season and keep most of this squad together, add a bit more quality/experience (i.e. at least one nasty bstard a la Derry), then yes next season we should expect to do better. But for now it's working hard to stay in the Championship. | |
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| Bristol City Match Fred on 14:45 - Dec 2 with 1079 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Bristol City Match Fred on 13:55 - Dec 2 by BrianMcCarthy |
Very good discussion, folks.
Can I just say that I have thought about our current situation, mulled it over, picked it apart and analysed it to within an inch of its life. And I haven't a clue. |
Creosote McCarthy! | | | |
| Bristol City Match Fred on 14:48 - Dec 2 with 1071 views | francisbowles |
I'm a Warburton fan but the fact is his contract runs out at the end of the season.
The club will therefore need to make a decision. Either they think they need a change or they offer him a new contract. This could be decided around Christmas or could be deferred until nearer the end of the season.
If it is to be decided in December/ January then things need to pick up for them to be able to justify a new contract. If we are still around 17th, then they may decide to make a change to give a new manager the window.
If they defer the decision and then we still are around the bottom, at some point he will become 'dead man walking', the players will know it and will start looking after themselves rather than the team.
So, I would suggest the next few weeks results are very important. We must see an improvement in results. | | | |
| Bristol City Match Fred on 14:49 - Dec 2 with 1067 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Bristol City Match Fred on 14:28 - Dec 2 by TheChef |
More experience really is key. I was looking at our starting line up last night:
Dieng (new to regular 1st team football)
Kakay (new to regular 1st team football)
Dickie (new to the Championship)
Barbet (Championship player)
Wallace (new to the Championship)
Carroll (Championship player)
Ball (some Championship experience?)
Willock (new to the Championship)
Chair (Championship player)
BOS (Championship player)
Dykes (new to the Championship)
So that's four out of eleven with some kind of regular Championship experience, and I'd say only Carroll out of those has played regularly over the last two or three seasons.
It's a work in progress, if we can survive this season and keep most of this squad together, add a bit more quality/experience (i.e. at least one nasty bstard a la Derry), then yes next season we should expect to do better. But for now it's working hard to stay in the Championship. |
Great point.
I would imagine Bright apart that XI will still be here next August but with a whole season of graft behind them which would lead to fewer mistakes.
This was not the case between last season and this one. | | | |
| Bristol City Match Fred on 14:50 - Dec 2 with 1062 views | PinnerPaul |
| Bristol City Match Fred on 21:21 - Dec 1 by stevec |
Well let us know when that happens! |
It has already - Rotherham - double deflection for the 1st, mindless pen given to us for the 3rd and lucky not to give away a pen in the 2nd half - they probably deserved to draw.
Watford - We could have scored 4/5 in the 2nd half, but Watford could have scored 4/5 first half - have to look beyond the Nick London/Warburton narrative sometimes - we are NOT 100% hard done by all the time! | | | |
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