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Not really a adversarial but these are some reasons to vote Leave:
1) Treatment of Greece. 2) Liberalisation of Northern banks (and imposition of loans / austerity on Greece) 3) Failure to intervene (or condemn) suppression in Catalunya. 4) Courting TTIP. 5) Failure to recognise Palestine. 6) Re run of Lisbon treaty in Ireland. 7) Expenses abuse (worse than Westminster's) 8) Courting of Erdogan to take Syrian refugees in Turkey despite HR abuses. 9) Letting Victor Oban do what he fcking likes in Hungary 10) 10,000 dead Mediterranean migrants. 11) The advancement of Neoliberalism.
Still all better than being stuck on these islands with a unchained Tory party though.
[Post edited 10 Jul 2018 21:29]
Bazza, why do you think that the EU should have intervened in Spain and Hungary but should have not imposed austerity on Greece?
It's no-win for the EU, they should keep their noses out except when you don't like someone else when they should interfere at once.
Most of these issues are much more complex than the black-and-white narratives usually presented - e.g. the Catalan nationalists don't have the support of a majority, were acting in breach of the constitution, and come to that are not the nice left-wingers the Guardian will tell you, the clue is in the word "nationalist" (Catalan socialists are totally opposed)
I could go on at boring length point by point. There's loads wrong with the EU but most of the things you quote apart from dos 4 and 7 are down to the actions of member govts or down to big intractable problems.
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David Davis + Boris on 23:13 - Jul 10 with 3155 views
Remember how having a vote on Europe was supposed to heal the wounds in the Tory party? The question is: why has this not happened?
I didn't make too many posts at the time of the Brexit debate in 2016 but one thing I said was this: 'The European discussion within the Tory Party has always been ferocious because it is really a debate about how to manage Britain's decline...Stay or leave, Britain will be in an ever growing position of weakness in relation to Germany.'
Brexit .... My thoughts... by JacksDad16 Jun 2016 11:07 The one thing I am certain of re this vote is that no-one knows for sure what the repercussions economically will be if we pull out. If you listen to the experts it will be better if we stay in, however its all unconvincing. My issue is that after 10 years of Austerity, the services in this country have been cut to the bone, that is services that are needed by us all - not just Immigrants/benefit spongers. We are not in a position to afford the enormous gamble if it all goes t1ts up. I am taking my lead from Ray Winston and gambling responsibly and staying in. If we ever get to situation when everything is adequately funded and horrible 0 hours contracts were abolished ... then maybe it might be worth the risk to pull out. But to do it now is a massive gamble which we just cannot afford to lose.
I thought the Brexiteers would at least acknowledge the complexities of Brexit, but that seems not to be the case. Instead it appears the problems are attributed to the weaknesses of individual politicians (or betrayal). But surely the demented behaviour and lurches in policy of the British and American ruling class are symptoms of the decline of these countries and not the cause?
As for Davis, remember last year when he promised 'the row of the summer' and caved in on the first day? Is it that surprising he wanted to get out when he kept getting beaten black and blue in Europe?
On a side note I watched an interview with Farage the other day and was struck by his deluded analysis that we are not living in a capitalist society (or at least not the capitalism of his imagination):
'Capitalism went out of the window years ago. We now live in age of global corporatism where a handful of big companies virtually own the political class'.
My dear Farage, that is capitalism. The real capitalism we see before our eyes. The process can only accelerate with companies like Amazon taking out small businesses.
One author described the same outlook among the free-marketeers in the 1930s: 'And so, in their agitation, they had to take flight from reality into a mystic fatalism; for monopoly capitalism has undeniably grown out of free competitive capitalism, and thus the representatives of the latter can not attack the first without at the same time striking themselves.'
Farage is also now saying that it will take seven years for any benefit to arise from Brexit. Of course Ivan Rogers was way ahead of him as he warned when he resigned last year that it might take 10 years to reach a deal.
1. The level of paralysis that has struck the government as the internal wranglings go on and on. If no deal is a serious prospect, why are there no preparations? The Dutch are hiring over 900 extra customs officials to handle trading issues that are expected to arise from Brexit.
2. There seems to be a group of Brexiteers who, far being concerned about economic turmoil, are hoping for some sort of capitalist economic renaissance to be brought about by a destructive baptism of fire induced by Brexit.
Air hostess clique
1
David Davis + Boris on 23:47 - Jul 10 with 3123 views
David Davis + Boris on 22:09 - Jul 10 by CiderwithRsie
Bazza, why do you think that the EU should have intervened in Spain and Hungary but should have not imposed austerity on Greece?
It's no-win for the EU, they should keep their noses out except when you don't like someone else when they should interfere at once.
Most of these issues are much more complex than the black-and-white narratives usually presented - e.g. the Catalan nationalists don't have the support of a majority, were acting in breach of the constitution, and come to that are not the nice left-wingers the Guardian will tell you, the clue is in the word "nationalist" (Catalan socialists are totally opposed)
I could go on at boring length point by point. There's loads wrong with the EU but most of the things you quote apart from dos 4 and 7 are down to the actions of member govts or down to big intractable problems.
I’m judging the EU by it’s own charter not just my morals or ideologies.
In relation to the suppression of Catalunyan protesters:
Article 12
Freedom of assembly and of association 1. Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and to freedom of association at all levels, in particular in political, trade union and civic matters, which implies the right of everyone to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his or her interests. 2. Political parties at Union level contribute to expressing the political will of the citizens of the Union.
In relation to forced austerity on Greece:
Article 41
Right to good administration 1. Every person has the right to have his or her affairs handled impartially, fairly and within a reasonable time by the institutions, bodies, offices and agencies of the Union.
[Post edited 10 Jul 2018 23:48]
0
David Davis + Boris on 09:07 - Jul 11 with 2920 views
I’m judging the EU by it’s own charter not just my morals or ideologies.
In relation to the suppression of Catalunyan protesters:
Article 12
Freedom of assembly and of association 1. Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and to freedom of association at all levels, in particular in political, trade union and civic matters, which implies the right of everyone to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his or her interests. 2. Political parties at Union level contribute to expressing the political will of the citizens of the Union.
In relation to forced austerity on Greece:
Article 41
Right to good administration 1. Every person has the right to have his or her affairs handled impartially, fairly and within a reasonable time by the institutions, bodies, offices and agencies of the Union.
[Post edited 10 Jul 2018 23:48]
Bazza
On Spain: the EU set up the ECHR to protect those rights. Any Catalan feeling the Spanish govt breached those rights can cite the Declaration of HR in the Spanish courts and if necessary appeal to the ECHR. (Plenty of lawyers could argue there was no breach of Art 12 by Spain but that's another story.) It doesn't say that the EU will directly intervene in an internal political crisis nor that it should directly control law enforcement in member states.
On Greece: that is quite clearly a provision relating to the rights of citizens to be properly treated by EU institutions. It doesn''t say that if a national government screws its economy so badly that it runs out of money the EU will provide funds without conditions. You and I may disagree with some of the conditions imposed but the EU and the non-Greek member states had a right (duty, in fact) to protect their own taxpayers from an indefinite commitment to pouring funds into a bottomless pit. We might also argue that euro membership was bad for Greece but it was not imposed on Greece by the EU, it was a Greek decision which had consequences.
I really think that you (not just you!) are missing what the EU is supposed to be about. It's not supposed to tell national governments what to do, it's supposed to give freedoms and opportunities to individuals and businesses across all Europe. It's not for the Brussels bureaucrats or e.g. Merkel or Macron to set themselves up as judges of what's going on in Spain but the EU does provide a legal framework for the individual Spaniard to use if their basic rights are breached.
1
David Davis + Boris on 09:35 - Jul 11 with 2878 views
David Davis + Boris on 23:13 - Jul 10 by TacticalR
Remember how having a vote on Europe was supposed to heal the wounds in the Tory party? The question is: why has this not happened?
I didn't make too many posts at the time of the Brexit debate in 2016 but one thing I said was this: 'The European discussion within the Tory Party has always been ferocious because it is really a debate about how to manage Britain's decline...Stay or leave, Britain will be in an ever growing position of weakness in relation to Germany.'
Brexit .... My thoughts... by JacksDad16 Jun 2016 11:07 The one thing I am certain of re this vote is that no-one knows for sure what the repercussions economically will be if we pull out. If you listen to the experts it will be better if we stay in, however its all unconvincing. My issue is that after 10 years of Austerity, the services in this country have been cut to the bone, that is services that are needed by us all - not just Immigrants/benefit spongers. We are not in a position to afford the enormous gamble if it all goes t1ts up. I am taking my lead from Ray Winston and gambling responsibly and staying in. If we ever get to situation when everything is adequately funded and horrible 0 hours contracts were abolished ... then maybe it might be worth the risk to pull out. But to do it now is a massive gamble which we just cannot afford to lose.
I thought the Brexiteers would at least acknowledge the complexities of Brexit, but that seems not to be the case. Instead it appears the problems are attributed to the weaknesses of individual politicians (or betrayal). But surely the demented behaviour and lurches in policy of the British and American ruling class are symptoms of the decline of these countries and not the cause?
As for Davis, remember last year when he promised 'the row of the summer' and caved in on the first day? Is it that surprising he wanted to get out when he kept getting beaten black and blue in Europe?
On a side note I watched an interview with Farage the other day and was struck by his deluded analysis that we are not living in a capitalist society (or at least not the capitalism of his imagination):
'Capitalism went out of the window years ago. We now live in age of global corporatism where a handful of big companies virtually own the political class'.
My dear Farage, that is capitalism. The real capitalism we see before our eyes. The process can only accelerate with companies like Amazon taking out small businesses.
One author described the same outlook among the free-marketeers in the 1930s: 'And so, in their agitation, they had to take flight from reality into a mystic fatalism; for monopoly capitalism has undeniably grown out of free competitive capitalism, and thus the representatives of the latter can not attack the first without at the same time striking themselves.'
Farage is also now saying that it will take seven years for any benefit to arise from Brexit. Of course Ivan Rogers was way ahead of him as he warned when he resigned last year that it might take 10 years to reach a deal.
1. The level of paralysis that has struck the government as the internal wranglings go on and on. If no deal is a serious prospect, why are there no preparations? The Dutch are hiring over 900 extra customs officials to handle trading issues that are expected to arise from Brexit.
2. There seems to be a group of Brexiteers who, far being concerned about economic turmoil, are hoping for some sort of capitalist economic renaissance to be brought about by a destructive baptism of fire induced by Brexit.
'Capitalism went out of the window years ago. We now live in age of global corporatism where a handful of big companies virtually own the political class'.
My dear Farage, that is capitalism. The real capitalism we see before our eyes. The process can only accelerate with companies like Amazon taking out small businesses.
I think that's a dubious analysis Tactical. If you think that Stalin 'was' communism then there's no hope for communism, yet people still 'believe'. You could go across the full range of philosophies and put a line through them on the basis that at some point or other they were a disaster. I would consider myself a capitalist but I fully share Farage's view. I think that it's quite possible to weld together a range of philosophies either as a nation or as an individual and to be an effective and credible nation/individual whilst holding what some might describe as conflicting views.
[Post edited 11 Jul 2018 9:56]
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David Davis + Boris on 09:51 - Jul 11 with 2862 views
David Davis + Boris on 12:55 - Jul 11 by kensalriser
Gotta keep up the one troll a day minimum.
When we had the last great Brexit thread / meltdown, one of the posters (I forget who) compared it to religion - and I think that's a very good analogy.
The truth is that we won't know how this all ends up and those who are defiantly in favour of Brexit (and Remain to some extent) have pinned their colours to the mast and won't back down. There are those who can give a rational and well reasoned argument for Brexit, but the majority - in my experience - can't explain why things will be better as a result. This is what I eluded to in an earlier post when I mentioned The Sun and Daily Mail's role in influencing the public.
That said, I have a lot of respect for those who have changed their mind on which way they would vote following the referendum. To some extent, the real debate kicked off after the event, IMO.
"Thank you for supporting Queens Park Rangers Steep Staircase"... and I thought I'd signed up for a rollercoaster.
Not really a adversarial but these are some reasons to vote Leave:
1) Treatment of Greece. 2) Liberalisation of Northern banks (and imposition of loans / austerity on Greece) 3) Failure to intervene (or condemn) suppression in Catalunya. 4) Courting TTIP. 5) Failure to recognise Palestine. 6) Re run of Lisbon treaty in Ireland. 7) Expenses abuse (worse than Westminster's) 8) Courting of Erdogan to take Syrian refugees in Turkey despite HR abuses. 9) Letting Victor Oban do what he fcking likes in Hungary 10) 10,000 dead Mediterranean migrants. 11) The advancement of Neoliberalism.
Still all better than being stuck on these islands with a unchained Tory party though.
[Post edited 10 Jul 2018 21:29]
The hope that the EU might be able to have an influence on some things our own government is neglecting is - was - one benefit of being in the EU in my eyes. Random example: The dangerously high levels of air pollution in the UK which are causing 40,000 premature deaths every year.
RFA
"Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1."
0
David Davis + Boris on 14:29 - Jul 11 with 2640 views
For me the issue isn't about whether we should Brexit or not - I think we should, and my reasons, put as briefly as I can are these:
I believe the EU is rotten at its core, an institution that remains largely unaccountable and grossly inefficient; an institution that has f*cked the economies of several member countries who are worse off in many ways than before they joined - Spain, Portugal, Italy and Greece for example.
As a believer in *genuine* democracy and representation, I do not want my country to be a party to this corporate/banker controlled superstate. At the same time, I do not want this country to be beholden to the kind of neoliberal economics that Remainers and Leavers (those who are clued up) fear. But then these are not the only alternatives.
For me the crucial thing is who negotiates Brexit. And clearly, it shouldn't be the Tories. Under Remainer May's guidance they are making an utter, utter clusterf*ck of it. We stand to end up worse off, not just than before, but more importantly, than we would be under a properly negotiated Brexit. And I wouldn't trust the hardline Tory Brexiteers either. For me, such an incredibly vital issue shouldn't be negotiated by politicians at all - or at the very least, they should be guided independent experts, chosen through cross-party consensus. It's just too improtant to leave it to these moronic cultists.
"In a nutshell, May’s Brexit is the worst solution for Leavers and Remainers. It tries to please Remainers, who are obviously not satisfied as they want a full reversal of the EU exit.
In essence, the plan is the worst of both worlds. Leaves the UK with all the perceived negatives that led to a “Yes” vote in the referendum and none of the alleged benefits of staying in the European Union.
Furthermore, the proposal does not shield the UK from the risks that are rising in Italy and the immigration crisis. In fact, it leaves many loopholes that effectively mean that the entire agreement is subject to interpretation. Lack of clarity is dangerous in any agreement, but being deliberately vague is simply devastating when the time is passing and the deadline is obvious.
I’d condense the last seven pages to this: if we weren’t members of the EU and the 2016 referendum was whether we should join or not, do we think we’d have voted to join?
'Always In Motion' by John Honney available on amazon.co.uk
David Davis + Boris on 13:17 - Jul 11 by Mytch_QPR
When we had the last great Brexit thread / meltdown, one of the posters (I forget who) compared it to religion - and I think that's a very good analogy.
The truth is that we won't know how this all ends up and those who are defiantly in favour of Brexit (and Remain to some extent) have pinned their colours to the mast and won't back down. There are those who can give a rational and well reasoned argument for Brexit, but the majority - in my experience - can't explain why things will be better as a result. This is what I eluded to in an earlier post when I mentioned The Sun and Daily Mail's role in influencing the public.
That said, I have a lot of respect for those who have changed their mind on which way they would vote following the referendum. To some extent, the real debate kicked off after the event, IMO.
@Mytch_QPR 'When we had the last great Brexit thread / meltdown, one of the posters (I forget who) compared it to religion - and I think that's a very good analogy.'
There is definitely an element of 'I know what I think'. I am a little bit wary of using religion as an analogy, as the danger with that is that you don't really have to even try to understand what the other side is saying.
Having said that I was thinking about Trump the other day, and there does seem to be a cultish Mao-like element to the way his supporters see him.
Air hostess clique
0
David Davis + Boris on 15:22 - Jul 11 with 2569 views
I’d condense the last seven pages to this: if we weren’t members of the EU and the 2016 referendum was whether we should join or not, do we think we’d have voted to join?
Sh*te that's a deep, deep hypothetical question and not at all a representative condensation of the last seven pages whatsoever if that's what you meant
[Post edited 11 Jul 2018 15:22]
0
David Davis + Boris on 17:09 - Jul 11 with 2492 views
David Davis + Boris on 14:02 - Jul 11 by R_from_afar
The hope that the EU might be able to have an influence on some things our own government is neglecting is - was - one benefit of being in the EU in my eyes. Random example: The dangerously high levels of air pollution in the UK which are causing 40,000 premature deaths every year.
RFA
Yes, and is why I voted remain.
1
David Davis + Boris on 20:29 - Jul 12 with 2318 views
I’d condense the last seven pages to this: if we weren’t members of the EU and the 2016 referendum was whether we should join or not, do we think we’d have voted to join?
That's a good question and I'd say "probably not".
But we are where we are and I think that disentangling ourselves represents a massive ballache and a huge risk.
I’d condense the last seven pages to this: if we weren’t members of the EU and the 2016 referendum was whether we should join or not, do we think we’d have voted to join?
Given that if you join now you must adopt the Euro (and nobody wants that) then the answer would be no. But because of that a slightly skewed question!
0
David Davis + Boris on 20:52 - Jul 12 with 2287 views
Given that if you join now you must adopt the Euro (and nobody wants that) then the answer would be no. But because of that a slightly skewed question!
Cannot understand why remainders are so against the Euro, it is one of the pillars of the EU, an organisation it seems we cannot exist outside. Like it or not we will be made to adopt the Euro sometime in the future when the required referendum is repeated enough times until it gives a yes vote
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David Davis + Boris on 21:46 - Jul 12 with 2212 views
Cannot understand why remainders are so against the Euro, it is one of the pillars of the EU, an organisation it seems we cannot exist outside. Like it or not we will be made to adopt the Euro sometime in the future when the required referendum is repeated enough times until it gives a yes vote
Paranoid much?
The evil EU is out to get you. Only the selfless Johnson and Rees-Mogg can save us. Men of the people.
0
David Davis + Boris on 22:19 - Jul 12 with 2164 views
The evil EU is out to get you. Only the selfless Johnson and Rees-Mogg can save us. Men of the people.
Who's paranoid I did not say they were evil but of course calling anybody critical of the EU names is easy. They are a club that wants their own way no problem with that but let's be honest and everybody admit it. How many referenda have been held that produced a result that the EU did not want and was not be repeated. What May has put forward is worse than us staying in the EU but nobody wants to be seen to go against the referendum so for last two years there has been frantic attempts at cooking up a position that's looks like we have left without actually leaving
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