| David Davis + Boris on 14:34 - Jul 15 with 2565 views | QPR_John |
| David Davis + Boris on 12:51 - Jul 15 by BrianMcCarthy |
This seems a sensible summation to me.
The white paper being presented to Merkel before it was presented to the Cabinet is very interesting. It doesn't seem to be a big story in Britain which strikes me as strange, but it's made huge news elsewhere as it reveals collusion and/or progress. It might also explain the over-the-top resignations from those trying to protect their images and careers.
It seems likely now that a deal is close, one that will start with the white paper and then - as a bull is never sold on the first trip to the fair - result in some more forfeitures by May before the ink dries.
Where that leaves us all will remain a mystery for now. This is a colossal and disastrous mess by England and one that will resonate for generations. Lives are at stake here, whether through poverty and health provision or through political uncertainty in Ireland. England badly needs a charismatic and decisive leader. I nominate Neil-SI. |
"The white paper being presented to Merkel before it was presented to the Cabinet is very interesting."
I suggest that is a little bit more than interesting more worrying really. One of the big issues around Brexit is our Government should be sovereign and not subservient to Brussels. Remainders ridiculed this idea but now it seems the Government is subservient to Germany |  | |  |
| David Davis + Boris on 15:37 - Jul 15 with 2502 views | kensalriser |
The UK will be less sovereign after leaving the EU because we'll be a rule taker with no input in creating the rules. |  |
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| David Davis + Boris on 16:29 - Jul 15 with 2475 views | Sharpy36 |
Not quite right. We will be able to reject any new rules. |  |
| 'You didn't know that was wrong, but now you do. If you do it again, I'll know you are doing it on purpose.' |
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| David Davis + Boris on 17:05 - Jul 15 with 2434 views | QPR_John |
| David Davis + Boris on 16:29 - Jul 15 by Sharpy36 |
Not quite right. We will be able to reject any new rules. |
Rejecting any rules would mean leaving the EU or at least that part to which the rules refer, parliament would never vote for that so in essence Mays plan means we will be a rule taker. | | | |
| David Davis + Boris on 17:38 - Jul 15 with 2412 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| David Davis + Boris on 14:34 - Jul 15 by QPR_John |
"The white paper being presented to Merkel before it was presented to the Cabinet is very interesting."
I suggest that is a little bit more than interesting more worrying really. One of the big issues around Brexit is our Government should be sovereign and not subservient to Brussels. Remainders ridiculed this idea but now it seems the Government is subservient to Germany |
What I find interesting is that a political party, a leader and a Nation that has declared their intention to break relations checks with its ex-friends before its own Cabinet. It seems to me it shows how weak their negotiating position is. |  |
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| David Davis + Boris on 19:07 - Jul 15 with 2342 views | kensalriser |
| David Davis + Boris on 16:29 - Jul 15 by Sharpy36 |
Not quite right. We will be able to reject any new rules. |
Not if we want to do business. Goods exported into the EU have to comply with EU standards and regulations. | |
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| David Davis + Boris on 19:32 - Jul 15 with 2317 views | CiderwithRsie |
| David Davis + Boris on 17:38 - Jul 15 by BrianMcCarthy |
What I find interesting is that a political party, a leader and a Nation that has declared their intention to break relations checks with its ex-friends before its own Cabinet. It seems to me it shows how weak their negotiating position is. |
Indeed.
Part of that weakness is that the country and even the cabinet itself is disunited - May's negotiating simultaneously with
- the Cabinet
- rest of the Tory Party
- Labour/rest of House of Commons inc DUP
- EU member states - Germany, Ireland etc
- the EU Commission.
Like most people faced with a tricky critical-path exercise, she's trying to fix the easy things first. Chances are it is easier to get a yes/no out of Merkel than it is from the Cabinet where anything Boris agreed to Hammond probably wouldn't and vice versa. | | | |
| David Davis + Boris on 19:54 - Jul 15 with 2302 views | Sharpy36 |
| David Davis + Boris on 19:07 - Jul 15 by kensalriser |
Not if we want to do business. Goods exported into the EU have to comply with EU standards and regulations. |
I fully appreciate that, but your previous statement reads as us being in the laps of the EU regarding all manor of things, which we wont. The repeal bill went through the commons and on the 30th of March next year we can if we choose to bin thousands of directives if we see fit, ie giving Dyson more sucking power should they choose.
What i struggle with sometimes is the thinking of those who wish to remain and their lack of accepting that trade is a two way street, and many other countries around the globe trade shoddy goods in the the EU daily, what was it, those hoover boards that caught alight like wise cheap vaping equipment. They get away with this and do not have to be members of the SM, CU. | |
| 'You didn't know that was wrong, but now you do. If you do it again, I'll know you are doing it on purpose.' |
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| David Davis + Boris on 20:12 - Jul 15 with 2290 views | QPR_John |
| David Davis + Boris on 19:54 - Jul 15 by Sharpy36 |
I fully appreciate that, but your previous statement reads as us being in the laps of the EU regarding all manor of things, which we wont. The repeal bill went through the commons and on the 30th of March next year we can if we choose to bin thousands of directives if we see fit, ie giving Dyson more sucking power should they choose.
What i struggle with sometimes is the thinking of those who wish to remain and their lack of accepting that trade is a two way street, and many other countries around the globe trade shoddy goods in the the EU daily, what was it, those hoover boards that caught alight like wise cheap vaping equipment. They get away with this and do not have to be members of the SM, CU. |
"I fully appreciate that, but your previous statement reads as us being in the laps of the EU regarding all manor of things, which we wont. "
If theory you may well be correct but there is no appetite in parliament to upset Brussels so in practice we will accept anything they throw at us. The argument put forward by the remainders if/when we leave has been so apocalyptical that it would be impossible for them to argue against the EU no matter what demands come from Brussels. We will not be part of a common rule book it will be the EUs rule book. [Post edited 15 Jul 2018 20:15]
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| David Davis + Boris on 20:32 - Jul 15 with 2262 views | Sharpy36 |
"We will not be part of a common rule book it will be the EUs rule book"
I expect you are correct, but Brexit for me was about being able to trade freely with the rest of the world without tariffs imposed within the CU that makes it extremely difficult and not cost effective. The CU is in effect a protectionist racket that lobbyist groups are bending over backwards to keep us in or to some extent aligned with for no other reason than greed. | |
| 'You didn't know that was wrong, but now you do. If you do it again, I'll know you are doing it on purpose.' |
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| David Davis + Boris on 20:51 - Jul 15 with 2235 views | Sharpy36 |
If that`s the case, do all 50 have to be members of the SM, CU and follow rules set out by the ECJ or have a "Common rule book" ?
And lets be honest, looking at large chunks of the map of the top of my head you could write off 50% of them if somewhere in the EU we could grow bananas/spices/tea/rice/coffee etc [Post edited 15 Jul 2018 20:59]
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| 'You didn't know that was wrong, but now you do. If you do it again, I'll know you are doing it on purpose.' |
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| David Davis + Boris on 23:06 - Jul 15 with 2154 views | derbyhoop |
| David Davis + Boris on 20:32 - Jul 15 by Sharpy36 |
"We will not be part of a common rule book it will be the EUs rule book"
I expect you are correct, but Brexit for me was about being able to trade freely with the rest of the world without tariffs imposed within the CU that makes it extremely difficult and not cost effective. The CU is in effect a protectionist racket that lobbyist groups are bending over backwards to keep us in or to some extent aligned with for no other reason than greed. |
Tariffs are not the issue. It is the non-tariff barriers that are far more important. Things like conforming to standards for goods, mutual recognition of qualifications for services, import and export controls, travel authorizations, etc. Any problems with any of those at customs check points and JIT manufacturing goes out the window., affecting cars, aerospace and, even, some retail. |  |
| "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one's lifetime." (Mark Twain)
Find me on twitter @derbyhoop and now on Bluesky |
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| David Davis + Boris on 10:00 - Jul 16 with 2047 views | GloryHunter |
Putin financed Trump's election in order to weaken NATO, and Putin financed Brexit in order to weaken the EU. So far things are going pretty well for him. |  | | |
| David Davis + Boris on 10:29 - Jul 16 with 2020 views | QPR_Jim |
| David Davis + Boris on 13:09 - Jul 15 by essextaxiboy |
The leave campaign was just that "a campaign" denied by Cameron of the use of the civil service on day one of the campaign . How could they predict a timeline when they were not in Government ?.
The Remain campaign who were the Government did no preparation at all towards a leave vote. |
The remain campaign weren't the government, it just happened to include the PM at the time.
Currently you're arguing that a government you see as mainly remain should have had a plan for losing while other leave voters are saying that a remain voter isn't suitable for delivering Brexit. It shows how difficult it is to make everyone happy. |  | | |
| David Davis + Boris on 10:52 - Jul 16 with 2009 views | QPR_John |
| David Davis + Boris on 10:29 - Jul 16 by QPR_Jim |
The remain campaign weren't the government, it just happened to include the PM at the time.
Currently you're arguing that a government you see as mainly remain should have had a plan for losing while other leave voters are saying that a remain voter isn't suitable for delivering Brexit. It shows how difficult it is to make everyone happy. |
"The remain campaign weren't the government, it just happened to include the PM at the time."
Of course
"Currently you're arguing that a government you see as mainly remain should have had a plan for losing"
Surely it is only common sense to have a plan if you lose however confident you are.. | | | |
| David Davis + Boris on 11:12 - Jul 16 with 1994 views | hubble |
A couple of apolitical perspectives on Brexit from people whose opinion I value, because it is informed opinion:
Firstly a good friend of mine is fairly high up in the Department of Trade. I spoke to him about Brexit at length this weekend. To put it very briefly, he says Britain/British businesses who trade abroad have little to fear from Brexit, even a hard Brexit. He said that currency fluctuations cary a far higher risk to British exporters and importers and that even in the worst-case scenario, the negative risk would mean about 6% overall losses in the months following Brexit, compared to up to 20% from currency fluctuations,which happen regardless.
Secondly a close relative is senior in the British Army. He is liberal in his politics, but also passionate about the role the British army plays in geopolitics and in securing British interests abroad (not through war, but through collaborative efforts, support, aid etc.). In his opinion, the army would be far better off after a hard Brexit, because currently he says their hands are tied for all sorts of reasons, due to us being part of the EU, and he says the army has become far less effective as a result of this.
I think the hysteria and scaremongering over Brexit is unjustified. As I said before, I think the wrong people are negotiating it, but that's a different matter. |  |
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| David Davis + Boris on 11:18 - Jul 16 with 1977 views | hubble |
| David Davis + Boris on 22:19 - Jul 12 by kensalriser |
We would have been fine going in to the euro when the rate was advantageous. Not so much now sterling's been trashed. |
This is the kind of hyperbole the Remain campaign perpetuates, but it simply isn't true. The Pound-Euro rate today is hardly any different than it was 5 years ago (and the pound is higher against the Euro compared to 2009/10 for example). It's just not a salient issue. Furthermore, there are all sorts of benefits that come with a lower pound anyway, so even then, it's swings and roundabouts. | |
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| David Davis + Boris on 13:42 - Jul 16 with 1890 views | essextaxiboy |
| David Davis + Boris on 10:29 - Jul 16 by QPR_Jim |
The remain campaign weren't the government, it just happened to include the PM at the time.
Currently you're arguing that a government you see as mainly remain should have had a plan for losing while other leave voters are saying that a remain voter isn't suitable for delivering Brexit. It shows how difficult it is to make everyone happy. |
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attac
I cant find the words Prime Minister or David Cameron anywhere in this (9 Million quid) campaign leaflet . [Post edited 16 Jul 2018 13:46]
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| David Davis + Boris on 13:49 - Jul 16 with 1875 views | essextaxiboy |
| David Davis + Boris on 10:52 - Jul 16 by QPR_John |
"The remain campaign weren't the government, it just happened to include the PM at the time."
Of course
"Currently you're arguing that a government you see as mainly remain should have had a plan for losing"
Surely it is only common sense to have a plan if you lose however confident you are.. |
Hope for the best plan for the worst (Jack Reacher)  | | | |
| David Davis + Boris on 13:53 - Jul 16 with 1871 views | essextaxiboy |
| David Davis + Boris on 19:07 - Jul 15 by kensalriser |
Not if we want to do business. Goods exported into the EU have to comply with EU standards and regulations. |
What needs to be established is what happens if our Parliament vote down something that the EU wants to add to the rule book .
Does that bring the whole deal tumbling down(unacceptable IMO)or do we just choose not to trade those goods affected which on the surface seems fair enough . | | | |
| David Davis + Boris on 13:55 - Jul 16 with 1866 views | R_from_afar |
| David Davis + Boris on 20:26 - Jul 13 by QPR_John |
At the moment BMW can sell their cars here with no tariffs so the price is set by the company. If we do not impose tariffs why will BMW charge more if we leave the EU. Of course we could impose a tariff on the cars but how does BMW know if we will and how much it will be |
I'm not an expert on this but I think that what happens is that the import tax is added to the price the manufacturer charges. The manufacturer could choose to reduce their price so that the final price the customer pays is the same, but that would mean reduced margin for them. As I say, that is how I think it works, based on some experience managing prices for a company whose products were sold on all the continents and which were affected by some import/export taxes and other trading considerations.
I am sure there will be some of you on here who understand this better. than I do.
RFA (crawls back into foxhole, dons tin hat, arms claymores....) |  |
| "Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1." |
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| David Davis + Boris on 14:02 - Jul 16 with 1857 views | QPR_Jim |
Yes, the government supported the remain campaign. It didn't make the remain campaign the government, which is what you said.
"the remain campaign who were the government"
Anyway, chuck in the words supported by and I believe you are correct but it doesn't address the fact that a lot of leavers wouldn't/won't accept a remain voter leading brexit, so whether they had a plan or not they weren't going to be allowed to implement it. Arguably the nearest thing to a mandate for brexit was the GE which May won (bought from DUP) yet still she get questioned over whether she should be leading brexit.
Out of interest, what do you think would be the most popular across Britain if we were given a choice of May's Brexit plan, leaving without a deal or remaining? | | | |
| David Davis + Boris on 14:02 - Jul 16 with 1856 views | essextaxiboy |
| David Davis + Boris on 23:06 - Jul 15 by derbyhoop |
Tariffs are not the issue. It is the non-tariff barriers that are far more important. Things like conforming to standards for goods, mutual recognition of qualifications for services, import and export controls, travel authorizations, etc. Any problems with any of those at customs check points and JIT manufacturing goes out the window., affecting cars, aerospace and, even, some retail. |
All of the things that you mention and some that you have raised in previous posts are dealt with in the White Paper .
I have read it 3 times and despite the feeling that I am missing something I cant find anything to get upset about. A realisation for me that my Brexit which I still totally support, is softer than I thought. | | | |
| David Davis + Boris on 14:12 - Jul 16 with 1842 views | essextaxiboy |
| David Davis + Boris on 14:02 - Jul 16 by QPR_Jim |
Yes, the government supported the remain campaign. It didn't make the remain campaign the government, which is what you said.
"the remain campaign who were the government"
Anyway, chuck in the words supported by and I believe you are correct but it doesn't address the fact that a lot of leavers wouldn't/won't accept a remain voter leading brexit, so whether they had a plan or not they weren't going to be allowed to implement it. Arguably the nearest thing to a mandate for brexit was the GE which May won (bought from DUP) yet still she get questioned over whether she should be leading brexit.
Out of interest, what do you think would be the most popular across Britain if we were given a choice of May's Brexit plan, leaving without a deal or remaining? |
I think remain would win that one as the other two would split the Brexit Vote .
Unless there is some devil in the detail that I am missing I would vote for the TM plan if it remained undiluted further .
If we dont leave this will not go away ,Farage will return to UKIP and get candidates out in every constituency for whenever the election comes . They will IMO get enough votes from both major parties (17 mill snubbed) to gain the balance of power . Their price for co operation ? You guessed it .......... | | | |
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