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We started the tournament not even knowing what our best side was, he was still experimenting with the line up and shape. That's inexcusable. We were dreadful in the pre tournament friendlies and again in the group games.
Brilliant individual moments got us through. Where were the bread and butter type goals? We had to rely on Bellingham v Slovakia, Saka v Switzerland, Watkins v Holland. The players we have are capable of so much better. We did not dominate games other than for brief periods, even against the lesser teams.
I think its well known that Southgate is limited tactically, but he has many other fantastic personal attributes than mean for me he should stay around in some sort of cultural role even if he is no longer the team coach/manager.
Technical coaching is dominating leagues these days. Southgate just isn't that guy. England's modern day players are more than capable of matching the best technically and need the right type of coach to get the best out of what is a very good crop of young players. This needs to start well before tournaments, not while they are on.
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Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 07:51 - Jul 15 with 8405 views
For me in the first 10 minutes it felt like we were out there with a game plan to see out the 90, followed by the next 30 and then go for penalties. We didn't get out of our half for a good 10 minutes but that was also to do with Spain being very good. That said, I felt like we had no belief in going forward and that the players knew there was no way out with Kane for some reason, immobile and unable to get off the ground.
Our shape was terrible. Centre midfielders all the way back on the edge of our box in a line. Kane offering no outlet whatsoever. When we did win the ball players offering no option for the ball carrier. I like Southgate as a person, but time for a fresh face.
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Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 08:10 - Jul 15 with 8316 views
We looked a team that was totally under cooked from the first match. Players looked tired, wondering if that was the JFH influence with his training methods at QPR in mind. Footballing wise we did not produce much in seven games. Low on the chance count, low on the goals scored and for the players available low on the possession. I was disappointed last night but not surprised and if truth be known Spain could have scored a hatful in the second half and totally embarrassed us. During the match Shearer on commentary mentioned the benefit of Watkins arrival had on the team whereby a ball behind the defence pushes the opposition back 10 yards. Well, we did that once. The team was crying out for a natural left winger as the only real threat was down the right with Saka. And what does Southgate do once we were heading for extra time? Look to bring on Gallagher, who I don’t know how he even gets into the squad, and Trippier. Southgate cost this team. I wonder if he had a squad with Williams and Jamal in it whether he would have had one on the bench? Even if Spain are overall a better side, we are a team that is far closer than the display suggested. According to the stats we had nine chances yesterday, three of those were headers in injury time from our second corner of the match.
Hard to say after England equalised if we ceded control or Spain just took it back.
For sure though Southgate not willing to make the big calls such as starting Kane who clearly was not fully fit; Watkins and Toney should have got a lot more minutes.
Overall he's done a very good job for England in tournaments but he will always be hamstrung by his conservatism.
Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 07:51 - Jul 15 by bosh67
For me in the first 10 minutes it felt like we were out there with a game plan to see out the 90, followed by the next 30 and then go for penalties. We didn't get out of our half for a good 10 minutes but that was also to do with Spain being very good. That said, I felt like we had no belief in going forward and that the players knew there was no way out with Kane for some reason, immobile and unable to get off the ground.
he dosnt have a plan A let alone a plan B with the players he took with him , no old guard and he still wont change anything , criminal , spain were good , but also not that great when a press was put onto them , we did the press for what ten mins , marti would have had them in there faces from the first min
We bottled it a bit yesterday. Sat back and gave Spain all the impetus. They had talented players and we let them run at us.
After we scored the goal we needed to keep the tempo up and really unsettle them but we didn't and it very predictably cost us.
Kane dogshit, Foden dogshit. How they managed to keep their starting places I don't know. That said, Watkins didn't look like any threat last night.
Stefan Moore, Stefan Moore running down the wing. Stefan Moore, Stefan Moore running down the wing. He runs like a cheetah, his crosses couldn't be sweeter. Stefan Moore. Stefan Moore. Stefan Moore.
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Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 09:26 - Jul 15 with 7946 views
Totally He got the Holland game right but the rest of this tournament was atrocious Slow build up, sideways passings, back to the keeper to hoof it Just poor, pay with pace , got to say he bottled it yesterday with Kane imo and even when he made the right subs we then sat back again when they were there for the taking Croatia Italy Spain In all of those games we get the goal but then Sh1t ourselves and go all defensive The squad we had and the players we left behind should be winning this , Spain were good but not great
And Bowles is onside, Swinburne has come rushing out of his goal , what can Bowles do here , onto the left foot no, on to the right foot
That’s there that’s two, and that’s Bowles
Brian Moore
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Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 09:33 - Jul 15 with 7884 views
My favourite ever team is the Brazil 1982 one, who played lovely football but came up short. Southgate is clearly a risk averse coach who favours pragmatism over flair and risk. You only need to look at the minutes the likes of Eze, Gordon and Palmer got in this tournament. But he was extremely close to England winning the tournament, despite rarely playing well in seven games. And I suppose that's the choice England have going forward - do you employ someone who will release their attacking flair (and possibly lose in the second round) or play the percentages game and hope they get through with a moment of magic, luck or a mistake by the opposition?
France are the same - bored their way through to the semis despite having one of the best squads in the world - including leaving Camavinga on the bench for the semi after he'd been superb against Portugal. Spain winning is a triumph for the beautiful game - I loved watching them this tournament and the way they were still going for a winner with five minutes left while Southgate was preparing to bring Callagher on said it all.
[Post edited 15 Jul 9:37]
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Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 09:36 - Jul 15 with 7860 views
Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 09:13 - Jul 15 by Bluce_Ree
We bottled it a bit yesterday. Sat back and gave Spain all the impetus. They had talented players and we let them run at us.
After we scored the goal we needed to keep the tempo up and really unsettle them but we didn't and it very predictably cost us.
Kane dogshit, Foden dogshit. How they managed to keep their starting places I don't know. That said, Watkins didn't look like any threat last night.
"How they managed to keep their starting places I don't know."
Kane and Foden simple as that. We pick the players with the best reputations or play for the top teams and try to mould them into a team. Gueli one of the players that had a good tournament but would not have had a look in if Maguire had been fit.
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Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 09:36 - Jul 15 with 7851 views
Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 09:33 - Jul 15 by Wegerles_Stairs
My favourite ever team is the Brazil 1982 one, who played lovely football but came up short. Southgate is clearly a risk averse coach who favours pragmatism over flair and risk. You only need to look at the minutes the likes of Eze, Gordon and Palmer got in this tournament. But he was extremely close to England winning the tournament, despite rarely playing well in seven games. And I suppose that's the choice England have going forward - do you employ someone who will release their attacking flair (and possibly lose in the second round) or play the percentages game and hope they get through with a moment of magic, luck or a mistake by the opposition?
France are the same - bored their way through to the semis despite having one of the best squads in the world - including leaving Camavinga on the bench for the semi after he'd been superb against Portugal. Spain winning is a triumph for the beautiful game - I loved watching them this tournament and the way they were still going for a winner with five minutes left while Southgate was preparing to bring Callagher on said it all.
[Post edited 15 Jul 9:37]
And the tactics Southgate employed got us to within 90 seconds of being eliminated in the last 16 against a team that’s rated over 50 places below us. And up to that point we were the second best team on the pitch. Even when we went ahead in extra time, we then sat back and made defensive substitutions.
One manger went to win the game the other manager went to stop the opposition That sums up last night
And Bowles is onside, Swinburne has come rushing out of his goal , what can Bowles do here , onto the left foot no, on to the right foot
That’s there that’s two, and that’s Bowles
Brian Moore
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Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 10:17 - Jul 15 with 7660 views
Been listening to Gareth talking post match and he claims that he didn't instruct the team to play deep. Strange as we played deep for most of the tournament led by our retreating Captain. Gareth couldn't fix this throughout the tournament.
Gareth also said that some players were not 100% fit, surprise surprise, so why play them?
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Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 10:21 - Jul 15 with 7642 views
Dreadful waste of talent.Players who can't replicate their club form.Totally down to Southgit. Not too bothere,it was a good day in the end- won £400 on a golf bet at The Scottish Open.
Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 09:40 - Jul 15 by paulparker
One manger went to win the game the other manager went to stop the opposition That sums up last night
Exactly and this time Spain were a quality step above the opposition we played so far in the tournament. I always felt if we conceded first to Spain then they would get the upper hand, dreadful time to concede just after half time. We have to put into context we are getting to finals but until we can find a way to take risks and change mentality to an attack minded team of which we have the players we won't win a tournament.
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Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 10:22 - Jul 15 with 7637 views
I've generally been a massive Southgate fan - but this tournament he simply got too much wrong.
Making big calls on leaving out trusted old favourites but then not seeming to have trust in those he brought in instead (see Rashford left out but Gordon gets 5 minutes)...not knowing his best team or formation and trying to adapt somewhat hamfistedly on the job...and above all, his caution - I could see why to some extent in previous tournaments he didn't "take the handbrake off", but with this squad, in a tournament not exactly packed with stand out teams, it was screaming out to be done, and he couldn't bring himself to do it.
Plus points - even more young players have shown they're comfortable at this level - Guehi, Mainoo, Palmer. There's a great squad there if the FA makes the right call on manager.
I think too much is made of Southgate's tactics and far too much is made of the quality of the England squad.
Look through the two starting XIs last night and how many England players would you pick ahead of their outfields counterparts?
Stones and Guehi or Laporte and Le Normand? Bit of a wash that but the Spanish pair looked more physical and assured than ours.
Carvajal and Cucurella or Shaw and Walker? I would say Walker is a superior athlete but technically the other two are far superior, particularly Carvajal.
Morata or Kane / Watkins? Not sure what to say about this but Kane made Chris Martin look like Stefan Moore for the whole tournament. On paper I'd say Kane and Morata are similar except Kane is a prolific goalscorer too. Who knows what's happening with him though. I'm not sure Watkins or Toney would get in any team ahead of Morata.
Williams and Yawal or Saka and Foden? I think this is where we mostly vastly overrate our own players. They're both very good but are they really a lot better than other elite teams' equivalents? I know it was a lot easier for the Spanish pair last night because of situations and space but I still think we overrate our own. They're good and easily international class but they don't offer us much more than any other big international nation has.
Fabian and Rodri / Zubimendi or Rice and Mainoo? I think this is where the game was lost. Fabian for me was ultimately the difference. Even if you want to say Rodri and Rice are similar players, Fabian is technically better than any central midfielder we've has for at least two decades, maybe three. English fans love a bit of blood and thunder in a central midfielder, they love a box to box physical athlete. We lose patience with calm technical passers and we've basically never had one in an England shirt in my lifetime. The only two you could put into that sort of mould would be Carrick and Scholes. Scholes was bafflingly asked to play as a winger and Carrick never got going because we always preferred to squeeze Lampard and Gerrard into the same midfield.
Was Rodri even injured last night? I genuinely don't know the answer to that but I do wonder whether the Spain manager recognised how utterly easy it was to dominate out midfield two and favoured Zubimendi's creativity next to Fabian to Rodri's Rice-like industry.
I think Southgate recognises this, hence the TAA experiment (which was a disaster by the way) but there really isn't an English player than I can think of that will demand the ball, create his own space, dictate the tempo and dictate where the game is played. That's why when the chips are down we find ourselves scrapping for our lives with 10 players in our own third.
I don't believe for a second Southgate has told any England side in any tournament to sit back and defend our own third when we're a goal up or even level. I don't think there was any instruction last night to sit back after we got our goal. I just don't believe that for a second. It's been happening for years. For 20 years plus. The same happened in 2004 vs France and Portugal, in 2006 vs Portugal (albeit with 10 men), it happened in 2012 vs Italy. Gary Neville talks about it openly saying the side he played in were aware of it but just couldn't stop it from happening. So Sven and Capello couldn't stop it and are / were widely known as elite tacticians when they were in role.
I think we're missing a talisman pivot that will have the most touches, always keep the ball progressing, connect the defence to the attack and carry the team up the pitch. But I also think that player is largely missing from the psyche of English football fans and coaches. We're still stuck in that mindset of run fast, be direct, 'get at him'. Ironically the absence of that player is exactly what's stopping those attacking players from doing just that.
For me there's something missing from the players we coach and create. Anyone even remotely technically able is pretty much immediately turned into an attack minded player. We actually have a surplus these days which is probably testament to the investment in grass roots coaching over the last 10/15 years. Buy why do we never, ever produce a Modric / Pirlo / Kroos? Who was the last one we did have? I'd say Scholes and his England career was completely wasted. Before that? Probably Wilkins.
Without that guy we cede possession too much, can't keep it anywhere near well enough when we do have it and limit our forward progression. We've always had good enough defenders and attackers to compete with the top teams but they've never been well enough connected and we've never been able to dictate knockout games.
At that point your only way to tactically win knockout matches are to find a hack, rely on individual brilliance or the bounce of the ball or set pieces. Which is largely what we relied upon all tournament. It could have gone our way last night but It didn't. Relying on that to win a major tournament where you'll usually have to beat 3 or more elite teams is a waste of time in my opinion.
That's why I'm not willing to lay all the blame on Southgate, he's been far from perfect but expecting much more from this set of players or any he's had is unfair. I don't think there's a coach in the world that could solve that knockout game retreat thing that's lasted at least three generations of England teams. If we want to win major tournaments, somehow create the midfield director. If Southgate had one he may well have won three tournaments. Almost definitely two.
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Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 10:36 - Jul 15 with 7557 views
Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 10:26 - Jul 15 by Padulas_Shampoo
I think too much is made of Southgate's tactics and far too much is made of the quality of the England squad.
Look through the two starting XIs last night and how many England players would you pick ahead of their outfields counterparts?
Stones and Guehi or Laporte and Le Normand? Bit of a wash that but the Spanish pair looked more physical and assured than ours.
Carvajal and Cucurella or Shaw and Walker? I would say Walker is a superior athlete but technically the other two are far superior, particularly Carvajal.
Morata or Kane / Watkins? Not sure what to say about this but Kane made Chris Martin look like Stefan Moore for the whole tournament. On paper I'd say Kane and Morata are similar except Kane is a prolific goalscorer too. Who knows what's happening with him though. I'm not sure Watkins or Toney would get in any team ahead of Morata.
Williams and Yawal or Saka and Foden? I think this is where we mostly vastly overrate our own players. They're both very good but are they really a lot better than other elite teams' equivalents? I know it was a lot easier for the Spanish pair last night because of situations and space but I still think we overrate our own. They're good and easily international class but they don't offer us much more than any other big international nation has.
Fabian and Rodri / Zubimendi or Rice and Mainoo? I think this is where the game was lost. Fabian for me was ultimately the difference. Even if you want to say Rodri and Rice are similar players, Fabian is technically better than any central midfielder we've has for at least two decades, maybe three. English fans love a bit of blood and thunder in a central midfielder, they love a box to box physical athlete. We lose patience with calm technical passers and we've basically never had one in an England shirt in my lifetime. The only two you could put into that sort of mould would be Carrick and Scholes. Scholes was bafflingly asked to play as a winger and Carrick never got going because we always preferred to squeeze Lampard and Gerrard into the same midfield.
Was Rodri even injured last night? I genuinely don't know the answer to that but I do wonder whether the Spain manager recognised how utterly easy it was to dominate out midfield two and favoured Zubimendi's creativity next to Fabian to Rodri's Rice-like industry.
I think Southgate recognises this, hence the TAA experiment (which was a disaster by the way) but there really isn't an English player than I can think of that will demand the ball, create his own space, dictate the tempo and dictate where the game is played. That's why when the chips are down we find ourselves scrapping for our lives with 10 players in our own third.
I don't believe for a second Southgate has told any England side in any tournament to sit back and defend our own third when we're a goal up or even level. I don't think there was any instruction last night to sit back after we got our goal. I just don't believe that for a second. It's been happening for years. For 20 years plus. The same happened in 2004 vs France and Portugal, in 2006 vs Portugal (albeit with 10 men), it happened in 2012 vs Italy. Gary Neville talks about it openly saying the side he played in were aware of it but just couldn't stop it from happening. So Sven and Capello couldn't stop it and are / were widely known as elite tacticians when they were in role.
I think we're missing a talisman pivot that will have the most touches, always keep the ball progressing, connect the defence to the attack and carry the team up the pitch. But I also think that player is largely missing from the psyche of English football fans and coaches. We're still stuck in that mindset of run fast, be direct, 'get at him'. Ironically the absence of that player is exactly what's stopping those attacking players from doing just that.
For me there's something missing from the players we coach and create. Anyone even remotely technically able is pretty much immediately turned into an attack minded player. We actually have a surplus these days which is probably testament to the investment in grass roots coaching over the last 10/15 years. Buy why do we never, ever produce a Modric / Pirlo / Kroos? Who was the last one we did have? I'd say Scholes and his England career was completely wasted. Before that? Probably Wilkins.
Without that guy we cede possession too much, can't keep it anywhere near well enough when we do have it and limit our forward progression. We've always had good enough defenders and attackers to compete with the top teams but they've never been well enough connected and we've never been able to dictate knockout games.
At that point your only way to tactically win knockout matches are to find a hack, rely on individual brilliance or the bounce of the ball or set pieces. Which is largely what we relied upon all tournament. It could have gone our way last night but It didn't. Relying on that to win a major tournament where you'll usually have to beat 3 or more elite teams is a waste of time in my opinion.
That's why I'm not willing to lay all the blame on Southgate, he's been far from perfect but expecting much more from this set of players or any he's had is unfair. I don't think there's a coach in the world that could solve that knockout game retreat thing that's lasted at least three generations of England teams. If we want to win major tournaments, somehow create the midfield director. If Southgate had one he may well have won three tournaments. Almost definitely two.
Some great points in my lifetime probably 2 players who could hold that midfield role Glen Hoddle but he was again seen as lightweight and a luxury so got dropped more often than not, the other was Paul Gascoigne but his mindset and injury recklessness destroyed his career at the top level.
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Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 10:44 - Jul 15 with 7507 views
Just before Spain’s winner Southgate was going to make 2 substitutions for extra time. Trippier and Gallagher. He just won’t go for the win. For all his many good points and the credit he builds up, he is such an annoying arsehole and has to take the fall for this.
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Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 10:58 - Jul 15 with 7415 views
Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 10:50 - Jul 15 by Lanhoop
Just before Spain’s winner Southgate was going to make 2 substitutions for extra time. Trippier and Gallagher. He just won’t go for the win. For all his many good points and the credit he builds up, he is such an annoying arsehole and has to take the fall for this.
Go for the win?
The second we conceded the players shat it and went and stood on the edge of our own box. If you believe Southgate and Holland told them to do that I will ardently disagree with you. I think it's something they've tried to combat over and over again to no avail.
Gallagher coming on at that point would have been the attempt to stop it happening. He's used him as a lively pressing midfielder the whole tournament, pressing the ball early in our half to try to get the defence and midfield out, not to encourage it to happen.
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