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Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 10:50 - Jul 15 by Lanhoop
Just before Spain’s winner Southgate was going to make 2 substitutions for extra time. Trippier and Gallagher. He just won’t go for the win. For all his many good points and the credit he builds up, he is such an annoying arsehole and has to take the fall for this.
Good point We had an embarrassment of riches with our attacking players , the talk before the tournament was about how ropey our defenders were but we had the best forwards going During this Euros we scored 8 goals in 7 games which is pretty poor and that’s on the manager as we never were a threat going forward bar a few brief moments, Spains group was harder than our run in imo plus they had the hardest side of the draw after , they fully deserved it because they went to win every game which is something we never did in any of our matches Southgate got it wrong with picking Kane from the start yesterday and if his plan was to bring on trippier and Gallagher for extra time then Spain did us all a favour by scoring in the last few minutes
And Bowles is onside, Swinburne has come rushing out of his goal , what can Bowles do here , onto the left foot no, on to the right foot
That’s there that’s two, and that’s Bowles
Brian Moore
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Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 11:08 - Jul 15 with 2327 views
Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 11:04 - Jul 15 by paulparker
Good point We had an embarrassment of riches with our attacking players , the talk before the tournament was about how ropey our defenders were but we had the best forwards going During this Euros we scored 8 goals in 7 games which is pretty poor and that’s on the manager as we never were a threat going forward bar a few brief moments, Spains group was harder than our run in imo plus they had the hardest side of the draw after , they fully deserved it because they went to win every game which is something we never did in any of our matches Southgate got it wrong with picking Kane from the start yesterday and if his plan was to bring on trippier and Gallagher for extra time then Spain did us all a favour by scoring in the last few minutes
We had lost the midfield so bringing on someone to press with fresh legs when Rice was out on his feet did make sense at that time.
it is comical though that Southgate is now getting slated for changes he didn't make
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Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 11:09 - Jul 15 with 2325 views
Southgate's record at tournament's is very good. You cant argue with that. He has has some incredible luck in terms of our pathway in tournaments as well.
But a telling stat is his record against top 10 sides in the world. Its 6 wins in 28 games. Also going into a tournament experimenting with Trent in the middle when he states at press conferences that he cant play Foden as a 10 because he doesn't play there for his club was just nonsense. I think he is a manager that is more scared to lose than be brave and go win a game and set the team free. He has a great squad in terms of attacking ability and IMO he has shackled them.
Time for a change, although its another problem as to who would come in.
Smells like a trout farm in here
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Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 11:13 - Jul 15 with 2275 views
Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 11:09 - Jul 15 by HAYESBOY
Southgate's record at tournament's is very good. You cant argue with that. He has has some incredible luck in terms of our pathway in tournaments as well.
But a telling stat is his record against top 10 sides in the world. Its 6 wins in 28 games. Also going into a tournament experimenting with Trent in the middle when he states at press conferences that he cant play Foden as a 10 because he doesn't play there for his club was just nonsense. I think he is a manager that is more scared to lose than be brave and go win a game and set the team free. He has a great squad in terms of attacking ability and IMO he has shackled them.
Time for a change, although its another problem as to who would come in.
whats the record against top 10 sides pre Southgate?
Failing to beat those sides goes back several generations
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Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 11:14 - Jul 15 with 2264 views
Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 11:09 - Jul 15 by HAYESBOY
Southgate's record at tournament's is very good. You cant argue with that. He has has some incredible luck in terms of our pathway in tournaments as well.
But a telling stat is his record against top 10 sides in the world. Its 6 wins in 28 games. Also going into a tournament experimenting with Trent in the middle when he states at press conferences that he cant play Foden as a 10 because he doesn't play there for his club was just nonsense. I think he is a manager that is more scared to lose than be brave and go win a game and set the team free. He has a great squad in terms of attacking ability and IMO he has shackled them.
Time for a change, although its another problem as to who would come in.
Another telling stat is that England have never knocked a top team out of any tournament outside of England. Argentina, Brazil, France, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Netherlands... We had never knocked a single one of them out in our history.
Southgate did that last week. The first England manager to do it. Ever.
But yeah I'm sure Graham Potter or Eddie Howe would somehow get us on the front foot at crunch time against these sides. It's all in the team talk for sure.
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Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 11:15 - Jul 15 with 2259 views
Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 11:08 - Jul 15 by daveB
We had lost the midfield so bringing on someone to press with fresh legs when Rice was out on his feet did make sense at that time.
it is comical though that Southgate is now getting slated for changes he didn't make
I suspect that Gallagher was not coming on for Rice at all but to replace the ‘hole’ he had perceived to have left after subbing Mainoo for Palmer. For a clue on this check the subs after we went ahead against Slovakia. The reality is that his negative outlook hampered this team. This is a better squad than the ones he took to Russia, Qatar and the last Euros, yet those teams he put out were far better in their way they approached each game, bar the odd hiccup like the USA match. I also think questions need to be asked of his coaching team. Anybody that employs JFH needs to be questioned. Surely we have an Englishman who as a number two/three is better than that fraud?
Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 11:13 - Jul 15 by daveB
whats the record against top 10 sides pre Southgate?
Failing to beat those sides goes back several generations
Good point about our previous record but when you are in these situations you have to go for it We won 2 games in 90 minutes, scored just over a goal a game our XG was worse than Croatia who didn’t get out of the group With the attacking riches we had we never went for it that was supposed to be a strength Cole palmer was our standout player but didn’t even start a game Kane 40 odd goals Foden 18 Bellingham 20 Watkins 20 odd How do you go from that to sod all
And Bowles is onside, Swinburne has come rushing out of his goal , what can Bowles do here , onto the left foot no, on to the right foot
That’s there that’s two, and that’s Bowles
Brian Moore
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Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 11:26 - Jul 15 with 2160 views
Overall i thought Southgate did well in the tournament. That was a very good Spain side - a lot better than the Italy team in the last final - that was a bigger missed opportunity.
Kane had shown signs of improvement in the semi final so I could see why he persevered with him but after 20 minutes it was clear he was very immobile again and the brave decision would have been to hook him at half time. This was a manager who got rid of Rooney at the beginning of his tenure but in the end the press get to England managers and i think there was a bit of that here. Kane is a really great player but his whole career he drops off a lot when he is carrying an injury.
After half time they moved Yamal infield a bit and it caused the goal.
A valid criticism is that England were a bit of a mess on the left throughout the tournament.
Rice i think has got away without much comment. I thought he was poor or charitably does not really play that role for Arsenal any more.
Lastly with my QPR googles on i thought that was a game made for Eze - as demonstrated by Stones little gallop through the field before ht.
i hope Southgate does step down now as i think it will turn on him a bit if he stays on and i would rather not watch that.
History proves we've been punching above our our weight under Southgate and regardless what we did last night Spain were the better side . The squad is still young so we will hopefully learn from this and be stronger at the WC ( if we qualify of course )
As for the next England manager ( if Southgate goes ) if our expectations are now to consistently get to finals then I would go all out for Klopp , he would be able to carry on the good/club environment that Southgate has built and it would also really piss off the scousers.
Anyway only a few weeks and the same people who've constantly whinged on here about England will be able to turn their attentions to Rangers
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Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 11:40 - Jul 15 with 2068 views
Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 11:26 - Jul 15 by Phildo
Overall i thought Southgate did well in the tournament. That was a very good Spain side - a lot better than the Italy team in the last final - that was a bigger missed opportunity.
Kane had shown signs of improvement in the semi final so I could see why he persevered with him but after 20 minutes it was clear he was very immobile again and the brave decision would have been to hook him at half time. This was a manager who got rid of Rooney at the beginning of his tenure but in the end the press get to England managers and i think there was a bit of that here. Kane is a really great player but his whole career he drops off a lot when he is carrying an injury.
After half time they moved Yamal infield a bit and it caused the goal.
A valid criticism is that England were a bit of a mess on the left throughout the tournament.
Rice i think has got away without much comment. I thought he was poor or charitably does not really play that role for Arsenal any more.
Lastly with my QPR googles on i thought that was a game made for Eze - as demonstrated by Stones little gallop through the field before ht.
i hope Southgate does step down now as i think it will turn on him a bit if he stays on and i would rather not watch that.
[Post edited 15 Jul 13:14]
Eze is a good example because we all know what he's about on here. If you play him, he's going to look to play on the front foot and create something. You get more flair but with that comes the added unpredictability that he's not 'holding' or looking to square the ball with a no-risk pass. You only need to look at Palace to see what a difference a manager can make - notably with Eze - in their transition from Hodgson to Glasner.
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Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 11:46 - Jul 15 with 2053 views
Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 11:15 - Jul 15 by DWQPR
I suspect that Gallagher was not coming on for Rice at all but to replace the ‘hole’ he had perceived to have left after subbing Mainoo for Palmer. For a clue on this check the subs after we went ahead against Slovakia. The reality is that his negative outlook hampered this team. This is a better squad than the ones he took to Russia, Qatar and the last Euros, yet those teams he put out were far better in their way they approached each game, bar the odd hiccup like the USA match. I also think questions need to be asked of his coaching team. Anybody that employs JFH needs to be questioned. Surely we have an Englishman who as a number two/three is better than that fraud?
Well that hole did need plugging and is a big part of why they got the 2nd goal
It's always something with England manager, Carragher said it well today, Sven was 4-4-2, Capello too strict a different manager makes that team great etc now Southgate too cautious if only someone would let them off their leash as if defensive structure isn't important. Whoever the next one is they'll be the fall guy when we don't win the next one.
Ultimately maybe the players are just not good enough to make that final step and winning these tournaments is incredibly hard. Look how good Messi and Ronaldo are as players, how long did it take them to win anything and how many times did they fall short. How often does pep go out of big tournaments as soon as they face a side as good as them
Getting to 2 finals and a semi final was a hell of an effort from Southgate, the next man has a very big challenge to equal that let alone better it
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Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 11:46 - Jul 15 with 2050 views
If we go right back to the very first Euro2024 qualifier, which was ironically away against our conquerers in the E20 final, and we won 2-1 which was deserved, this was the line up;
Foden for Grealish Mainoo for Phillips Guéhi for Maguire
If Foden can't play there then why not take Grealish, have both? No point taking players who don't play or only for a few minutes. Yes, I guess you have to have a back up in case of injury or suspension but we could have had Grealish instead of Dunk and had Foden too.
I wasn't impressed with Rice the last two games. Yes, he was squeezed each time he had the ball, that is the consequence of his position but he gave away too many cheap passes, especially against the Dutch.
I know it's easy to be wise after the event too and although he had a great tournament, I thought Guéhi could have done a bit better for Spain's winner.
When Oyarzabal in the centre passed the ball out left, Guéhi was just ahead of him to his right. Not going to do much defending there. He just carried on in a straight line and let Oyarzabal run past him and have an unobstructed shot on goal. Yes, the pace was fast and I don't think Guéhi could have got fully goal-side of him but at least move over to the left and get in front of him and try and make the shot difficult for Oyarzabal or get a block on it, but did neither.
OK, Oyarzabal may still have scored and people might say he obstructed Pickfords view but a defenders primary job is to stop the opposition from having having a shot on goal or at least make it difficult.
[Post edited 15 Jul 17:51]
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Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 11:59 - Jul 15 with 1989 views
Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 11:13 - Jul 15 by daveB
whats the record against top 10 sides pre Southgate?
Failing to beat those sides goes back several generations
You’re going to be a very happy boy if the FA suits get there way and persuade Gareth to stay on for another 4 years aren’t you? Everyone else not so: it’s clearly time for a change and a new approach to actually win something.
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Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 12:16 - Jul 15 with 1902 views
Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 11:59 - Jul 15 by Ned_Kennedys
You’re going to be a very happy boy if the FA suits get there way and persuade Gareth to stay on for another 4 years aren’t you? Everyone else not so: it’s clearly time for a change and a new approach to actually win something.
what was it you said about growing up?
I've said all along I think it's time to go separate ways after the tournament, I just don't buy thats it's going to be any better under the next one
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Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 12:55 - Jul 15 with 1777 views
Yes, we've got to two EC finals and a quarter & semi of the WC but it's been hard to watch, especially this tournament. Don't want to take for granted these recent achievements, especially after decades of mediocrity, but not sure I could watch anymore of how we've played the last 7 games.
If I were the FA I'd come out with a statement that we will actively promote attacking football and that the media & fans have to get behind this and not moan if it doesn't pay off. Don't be scared of the SM world, you're in charge, make a statement of intent and stick with it.
[Post edited 15 Jul 12:58]
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Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 13:06 - Jul 15 with 1721 views
Yes, we've got to two EC finals and a quarter & semi of the WC but it's been hard to watch, especially this tournament. Don't want to take for granted these recent achievements, especially after decades of mediocrity, but not sure I could watch anymore of how we've played the last 7 games.
If I were the FA I'd come out with a statement that we will actively promote attacking football and that the media & fans have to get behind this and not moan if it doesn't pay off. Don't be scared of the SM world, you're in charge, make a statement of intent and stick with it.
[Post edited 15 Jul 12:58]
Two years ago we beat Iran 6-2, Wales 3-0 and Senegal 3-0 at a World Cup.
He's played attacking football and lost. This tournament there's been something wrong with Kane and we struggled to attack and he still found a way to progress through the tournament.
This negativity thing is a bit of a myth. It's the players that retreat. You can hear Steve Holland and Jordan Pickford screaming at them to get up the pitch. They lose the midfield battle when it matters and they get pinned in. It's happened for decades.
If you think that's Southgate's 'fault', fair enough. I absolutely expect it to continue under the next manager though, just like it did under the previous four.
Our players are overrated. We're not that special. We're behind France, Spain, Brazil, Argentina. A new manager won't have us consistently beating those teams with a new shape or intent or whatever. That's my opinion anyway. I guess we'll find out in two years as I can't see Southgate staying.
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Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 13:45 - Jul 15 with 1540 views
Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 13:11 - Jul 15 by Padulas_Shampoo
Two years ago we beat Iran 6-2, Wales 3-0 and Senegal 3-0 at a World Cup.
He's played attacking football and lost. This tournament there's been something wrong with Kane and we struggled to attack and he still found a way to progress through the tournament.
This negativity thing is a bit of a myth. It's the players that retreat. You can hear Steve Holland and Jordan Pickford screaming at them to get up the pitch. They lose the midfield battle when it matters and they get pinned in. It's happened for decades.
If you think that's Southgate's 'fault', fair enough. I absolutely expect it to continue under the next manager though, just like it did under the previous four.
Our players are overrated. We're not that special. We're behind France, Spain, Brazil, Argentina. A new manager won't have us consistently beating those teams with a new shape or intent or whatever. That's my opinion anyway. I guess we'll find out in two years as I can't see Southgate staying.
I personally don't think Southgate is at 'fault' and have never said so.
Good points about the last World Cup but we lost the QF to the reigning World Champions because we missed a late penalty (and we got further than Spain)
So how have we gone from that to this? It has been very hard to watch England this time around.
In two years time we might be looking back and thinking "it wasn't that bad after all"!
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Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 13:49 - Jul 15 with 1523 views
Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 10:22 - Jul 15 by daveB
For all the talk about tactics it came down to Saka not tracking the run of a full back and Rice missing a headed chance at the end
It was very small margins and Spain were very good all tournament doing the same thing to Germany and France
You have been all over these threads and I can see your passion and love for England and Southgate daveB but that game should have been 3 or 4- 1 to Spain. England have Pickford to thank for being in that game late on for those chances to mean anything because they got completly outplayed even with Rodri coming off at half time Even under the bright lights of a final Southgate picked the wrong team again and should have pulled off Kane, Foden and maybe golden boy Bellingham at half time to get that win. It was zero zero remember and Spain were very frustrated plus I thought they were gettable at the back with the hairy guy (completly overrated IMO yes he provided the cross )and no coverage once Rodri had to come off . Spain went for it and got the rewards England played for penalties and thats down to Southgate ..
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Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 14:15 - Jul 15 with 1424 views
Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 13:49 - Jul 15 by CLAREMAN1995
You have been all over these threads and I can see your passion and love for England and Southgate daveB but that game should have been 3 or 4- 1 to Spain. England have Pickford to thank for being in that game late on for those chances to mean anything because they got completly outplayed even with Rodri coming off at half time Even under the bright lights of a final Southgate picked the wrong team again and should have pulled off Kane, Foden and maybe golden boy Bellingham at half time to get that win. It was zero zero remember and Spain were very frustrated plus I thought they were gettable at the back with the hairy guy (completly overrated IMO yes he provided the cross )and no coverage once Rodri had to come off . Spain went for it and got the rewards England played for penalties and thats down to Southgate ..
I'm not sure taking them all off at half time would have made much sense, we did alright first half and thought Bellingham had a decent game. His subs were fine last night, Palmer on for Mainoo was a really positive attacking change which may have got us back in it but also cost us as we have nothing in midfield after that
It could have been 3 or 4-1 if Spain took all their chances, we could have been 2 up at half time if Kane and Fodens chances go in, football just doesn't work like that though. Pickford played well and kept those chances out to keep us in the game.
Whole game came down to two defensive mistakes by England for the goals and failure to take our chances when they came. The Watkins and Rice chances at 2-1 are just as good chances as the ones Spain missed, neither were sitters but you have to take one of them
Spain fully deserved to win the game though
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Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 14:21 - Jul 15 with 1388 views
Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 10:50 - Jul 15 by Lanhoop
Just before Spain’s winner Southgate was going to make 2 substitutions for extra time. Trippier and Gallagher. He just won’t go for the win. For all his many good points and the credit he builds up, he is such an annoying arsehole and has to take the fall for this.
Up voted in error.
Spain were dominating at the time. We needed to stop them. It was the right call, one I was shouting for. Walker was knackered and our midfield was being overrun.
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Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 14:25 - Jul 15 with 1355 views
In the stinging afterpain of a hangover and giving it the full mope all morning after yet another defeat when it mattered most I'm conflicted about Safegate but do think it's time to say thanks and goodbye.
He has carried out his role with dignity and is clearly a passionate Englishman. For that I hope he can leave now with his head held high and reflect back on 8 years where he accomplished much; he's given us some great days that we didn't expect and he is behind a great culture shift in the England squad (club like atmosphere).
For all that I am sure he'll have regrets and it's those regrets that mean he needs to go, for his own personal respect as well. I'm totally on board with the growing into a tournament stuff but when it comes down to kill or be killed football he really has been hung for a sheep. The pain of seeing us throw away a generational opportunity against Italy in '21 still burns deeply in me, that hurts a lot more than last nights result for me personally. In fact the Croatia semi final WC defeat also rankles me more than last night..... purely because Spain were a great team all tournament with seven straight wins.
I really fail to see why he's done certain things like playing Trent CM and lamenting the absence of Kalvin "F*ckin" Phillips when he's brought Wharton along and not given him a kick. The rise of Wharton as a metronome type midfielder has been astonishing and I think we've been crying out for him at stages. The lack of minutes for Cole Palmer is very odd and I've felt he's been on the edge of that age old problem our Managers seem to have had over the years of playing the names and not a system.... If you have 6 world class midfielders but you play with a three then three of them need to accept they won't be playing and bide their time.
Rather than define him by his big defeats to Croatia, Holland, Italy, France and now Spain, or Lord him for his record to actually get us into a position to be playing those games, I'm in the middle on him.
The Coach / Manager role is massively important now -- look no further to the change at our own front door once we swapped our own Gareth for Saint Marti -- and we need someone in who has done it at the top table and is known for progressive tactical approaches. Who that is I have no idea but I'm on board if it's time for another Johnny Foreigner.... Klopp springs to mind.
Anyway... Gareth Southgate... thanks for all you've done... you were almost the one... it's time for you to watch from home again.
Cherish and enjoy life.... this ain't no dress rehearsal
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Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 15:20 - Jul 15 with 1267 views
Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 10:22 - Jul 15 by daveB
For all the talk about tactics it came down to Saka not tracking the run of a full back and Rice missing a headed chance at the end
It was very small margins and Spain were very good all tournament doing the same thing to Germany and France
It was only close because Spain missed a hatful of chances in the second half. Had they won 3 or 4-1, England could have had few complaints.
Southgate came into this tournament having selected injured players and not knowing his best 11. Selecting Shaw with no genuine backup was naïve. Experimenting with TAA in midfield was utterly bonkers. Starting with 3 right-backs in the team was asking for trouble. Persisting with Kane even though he knew full well that he had a back problem belies a lack of minerals and demonstrates little faith in the squad. Despite this, the subs bailed him out time-and-time again yet the usual suspects would start the next game.
The best managers put round pegs in round holes, ignore reputations, and have the bottle to make big decisions. The only England manager to win a major trophy did so with 3 West Ham players in the team despite West Ham finishing 12th in the old 1st division. Ramsay felt that they were the best players for the system he wanted to play. Sir Alf also stuck with Geoff Hurst when his star man, Jimmy Greaves, returned from injury. He was rewarded with a hattrick in the final.
Despite this template, many subsequent England managers have looked to pick the best 11 individuals rather than mould the best team, resulting in a lack of cohesion and balance. This was evident again with England, and the best team, both on the day and throughout the competition, deservedly won Euro 2024.
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Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 15:33 - Jul 15 with 1223 views
Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 09:13 - Jul 15 by Bluce_Ree
We bottled it a bit yesterday. Sat back and gave Spain all the impetus. They had talented players and we let them run at us.
After we scored the goal we needed to keep the tempo up and really unsettle them but we didn't and it very predictably cost us.
Kane dogshit, Foden dogshit. How they managed to keep their starting places I don't know. That said, Watkins didn't look like any threat last night.
After we equalised we went back into our shell , we should have attacked them and gone for a winner. But Southgate would never allow that. So saying that the best team won and it would have been a travesty if we had beaten them.
AND WHEN I DREAM , I DREAM ABOUT YOU AND WHEN I SCREAM I SCREAM ABOUT YOU!!!!!
Case for the defence - and look I do agree with a lot of what's been said about too negative, going to a tournament not knowing his best team, square pegs etc - we got through a tough semi-final with a goal from two of his substitutes combining, and we equalised last night with a goal from another substitution he made taking off his main striker in the process. That's not bad impact from a manager in two big games, nor a manager shirking big decisions. Changing out of the system you've gone into the tournament with and moving to three at the back mid tournament is a pretty brave and bold move, no sign of stubbornness or caution there.
Spain looked excellent all the way through to me, a cut above even the Germans who'd also looked very good up to the point they played Spain. We've lost 2-1, had that mad scramble with a couple of goalline clearances, and another day and another shoe size their winning goal gets VARd off. Similar to France at the World Cup, we miss a penalty and lose to a good side.
The problem Southgate has got I think goes back to the huge regret over the final with Italy at Wembley, and Croatia in Russia before that, both of which we really should have won and sat back and defended and people have never forgiven him for it. It colours everything we think about how he goes about his job.
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