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On one side we have a spineless and rudderless government full of self-serving narcissistic cnts utterly divided.
On the other side we have spineless and rudderless opposition full of self-serving narcissistic cnts utterly divided.
Can someone please show us a third way beyond flipping Vince. Failing a Chuka et al third way then Disco, you're the man no to save us from jezwecan, Diane, Sneery Emily and McDonnell no?
Our country is fckd match thread on 15:31 - Jan 16 by WatfordR
Ok, maybe I'm misunderstanding here, but are you saying that, on the basis of what some people you don't know are posting on twitter, you'd change your vote???
I'm quite happy to have my mind changed on the basis of someone putting forward points of view backed up by facts, figures and/or creditable forecasts. But I couldn't honestly give a sh@t about the views of people which amount to nothing more than soundbites and clichés.
"I'm quite happy to have my mind changed on the basis of someone putting forward points of view backed up by facts, figures and/or creditable forecasts. But I couldn't honestly give a sh@t about the views of people which amount to nothing more than soundbites and clichés."
Yeah, I know -you've made the same soundbite 3 times on this thread now.
You seem to have really gotten caught up on that twitter thing haven't you?
No, my point was that so called economic prosperity is not fairly distributed across the nation, and that we'd suffer on leaving is a consequence of a poorly planned economy far too reliant on finance and services. Life is already pretty crap for huge parts of people in this country, while we are in the EU. Funny now that the middle classes might feel some of that it becomes unconscionable.
We need large scale infrastructure investments. Leave or stay - these are what are required, but the prevailing remain crowd - a group of pro business Tories and the SDLP mark two who want everything to "go back to normal". In essence - a heady cocktail of austerity and inequality excused by the fact you won't have to show your passport when you go on a ski trip.
I'd rather stay, but I look at it now and the people backing remain are the people who also think things were fine before. And rather than listen to those concerns, they repeatedly call you a fantasist, when I'm stating a pretty level, uncontroversial statement. This is also why a second referendum is unhealthy because it isn't a binary choice - there is a lot of nuance in the gaps. Soubry and Lucas are both remainers, but their versions of that are probably quite starkly different
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Our country is fckd match thread on 16:38 - Jan 16 with 3558 views
Our country is fckd match thread on 16:27 - Jan 16 by FDC
Same.
On Lexit, there was a decent debate on the NEF Weekly Economics podcast this week between Grace Blakely (Lexit) and Laurie Macfarlane (Remain and Reform). Still not 100% sure which way I lean, probably towards Laurie's argument. But Grace does make some compelling arguments.
Grace Blakely is amazing. I'm not as fully sold on Lexit as she is, but it's really wonderful to have a powerful and confident advocate of left wing economics disrupting the usual political TV circle jerks
0
Our country is fckd match thread on 16:52 - Jan 16 with 3506 views
Our country is fckd match thread on 16:38 - Jan 16 by robith
Grace Blakely is amazing. I'm not as fully sold on Lexit as she is, but it's really wonderful to have a powerful and confident advocate of left wing economics disrupting the usual political TV circle jerks
She is excellent. I saw her present the arguments from her forthcoming book at an event towards the end of last year, she was very impressive.
0
Our country is fckd match thread on 16:56 - Jan 16 with 3490 views
Our country is fckd match thread on 16:37 - Jan 16 by robith
"I'm quite happy to have my mind changed on the basis of someone putting forward points of view backed up by facts, figures and/or creditable forecasts. But I couldn't honestly give a sh@t about the views of people which amount to nothing more than soundbites and clichés."
Yeah, I know -you've made the same soundbite 3 times on this thread now.
You seem to have really gotten caught up on that twitter thing haven't you?
No, my point was that so called economic prosperity is not fairly distributed across the nation, and that we'd suffer on leaving is a consequence of a poorly planned economy far too reliant on finance and services. Life is already pretty crap for huge parts of people in this country, while we are in the EU. Funny now that the middle classes might feel some of that it becomes unconscionable.
We need large scale infrastructure investments. Leave or stay - these are what are required, but the prevailing remain crowd - a group of pro business Tories and the SDLP mark two who want everything to "go back to normal". In essence - a heady cocktail of austerity and inequality excused by the fact you won't have to show your passport when you go on a ski trip.
I'd rather stay, but I look at it now and the people backing remain are the people who also think things were fine before. And rather than listen to those concerns, they repeatedly call you a fantasist, when I'm stating a pretty level, uncontroversial statement. This is also why a second referendum is unhealthy because it isn't a binary choice - there is a lot of nuance in the gaps. Soubry and Lucas are both remainers, but their versions of that are probably quite starkly different
Preach
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Our country is fckd match thread on 17:09 - Jan 16 with 3431 views
Our country is fckd match thread on 16:37 - Jan 16 by robith
"I'm quite happy to have my mind changed on the basis of someone putting forward points of view backed up by facts, figures and/or creditable forecasts. But I couldn't honestly give a sh@t about the views of people which amount to nothing more than soundbites and clichés."
Yeah, I know -you've made the same soundbite 3 times on this thread now.
You seem to have really gotten caught up on that twitter thing haven't you?
No, my point was that so called economic prosperity is not fairly distributed across the nation, and that we'd suffer on leaving is a consequence of a poorly planned economy far too reliant on finance and services. Life is already pretty crap for huge parts of people in this country, while we are in the EU. Funny now that the middle classes might feel some of that it becomes unconscionable.
We need large scale infrastructure investments. Leave or stay - these are what are required, but the prevailing remain crowd - a group of pro business Tories and the SDLP mark two who want everything to "go back to normal". In essence - a heady cocktail of austerity and inequality excused by the fact you won't have to show your passport when you go on a ski trip.
I'd rather stay, but I look at it now and the people backing remain are the people who also think things were fine before. And rather than listen to those concerns, they repeatedly call you a fantasist, when I'm stating a pretty level, uncontroversial statement. This is also why a second referendum is unhealthy because it isn't a binary choice - there is a lot of nuance in the gaps. Soubry and Lucas are both remainers, but their versions of that are probably quite starkly different
Good to see both you and MrSheen showing it's possible to have a bit of a discussion without sitting in a bunker lobbing grenades.
But on the inequality point, sure being in the EU isn't/wasn't a panacea, but
1. all the analysis is that the places that'll be hardest hit by No Deal are in fact the poorest, thus making a bad situation worse
2. ever since Thatcher there's been more inequality in the UK than the EU average. If other EU countries can be less unequal while being in, why not us?
3. following from 2, the reason the UK is more unequal is because, contrary to the claim that we have no independence in the EU, in reality most government comes down to the national govts. That's why Germany is rather different to Greece. The whole "Vote leave because it's sh*t round here" is a massive red herring IMO - the sh*tholes in the UK are due to post-industrial decline and Thatcher either gave them a kick on their way down or pulled out the life support plug on places that were already dead, depending on your POV. Being in or out makes not much difference, except that it's fact that our economy started rebuilding in the 70s after we joined.
4
Our country is fckd match thread on 17:28 - Jan 16 with 3371 views
Our country is fckd match thread on 16:37 - Jan 16 by robith
"I'm quite happy to have my mind changed on the basis of someone putting forward points of view backed up by facts, figures and/or creditable forecasts. But I couldn't honestly give a sh@t about the views of people which amount to nothing more than soundbites and clichés."
Yeah, I know -you've made the same soundbite 3 times on this thread now.
You seem to have really gotten caught up on that twitter thing haven't you?
No, my point was that so called economic prosperity is not fairly distributed across the nation, and that we'd suffer on leaving is a consequence of a poorly planned economy far too reliant on finance and services. Life is already pretty crap for huge parts of people in this country, while we are in the EU. Funny now that the middle classes might feel some of that it becomes unconscionable.
We need large scale infrastructure investments. Leave or stay - these are what are required, but the prevailing remain crowd - a group of pro business Tories and the SDLP mark two who want everything to "go back to normal". In essence - a heady cocktail of austerity and inequality excused by the fact you won't have to show your passport when you go on a ski trip.
I'd rather stay, but I look at it now and the people backing remain are the people who also think things were fine before. And rather than listen to those concerns, they repeatedly call you a fantasist, when I'm stating a pretty level, uncontroversial statement. This is also why a second referendum is unhealthy because it isn't a binary choice - there is a lot of nuance in the gaps. Soubry and Lucas are both remainers, but their versions of that are probably quite starkly different
There's a surprising-for-you quantity of complete twaddle in there Robith.
"Life is already pretty crap for huge parts of people in this country" - absolutely.
"while we are in the EU" - absolutely not the cause; this is a British crisis due to British and US policy and deregulation.
"the prevailing remain crowd - a group of pro business Tories and the SDLP mark two who want everything to "go back to normal". In essence - a heady cocktail of austerity and inequality excused by the fact you won't have to show your passport when you go on a ski trip. " - happily pissing in the face of the many millions of people of all social and income brackets whose lives will be made more difficult even without taking into account the likely economic impact of Brexit.
The EU is a gathering of governments. It has institutions, but the governments drive it. As a result it tends to be centrist as that is where compromise lies. This makes it the devil to the deregulatory or nationalist right and equally to the anti-capitalist left. You may wish for a British government far to the left of the EU centre of gravity but you've long had and are likely to continue to have a government in Westminster that lies a long way to the right of that.
I do not suggest to ignore the outcome of the first referendum - but if anyone thinks a country with a zombie zero-interest-rate economy and a fat debt is going to make its own way without a long-drawn-out economic collapse they are just kidding themselves, and they can't any more give anyone else responsibility for kidding them.
We probably agree almost entirely on the background causes to all this, but anyone who thinks it better to go it alone when the country's already in such a state needs their head examining.
A magnificent football club, the love of our lives, finding a way to finally have its day in the sun.
Our country is fckd match thread on 17:10 - Jan 16 by CiderwithRsie
Good to see both you and MrSheen showing it's possible to have a bit of a discussion without sitting in a bunker lobbing grenades.
But on the inequality point, sure being in the EU isn't/wasn't a panacea, but
1. all the analysis is that the places that'll be hardest hit by No Deal are in fact the poorest, thus making a bad situation worse
2. ever since Thatcher there's been more inequality in the UK than the EU average. If other EU countries can be less unequal while being in, why not us?
3. following from 2, the reason the UK is more unequal is because, contrary to the claim that we have no independence in the EU, in reality most government comes down to the national govts. That's why Germany is rather different to Greece. The whole "Vote leave because it's sh*t round here" is a massive red herring IMO - the sh*tholes in the UK are due to post-industrial decline and Thatcher either gave them a kick on their way down or pulled out the life support plug on places that were already dead, depending on your POV. Being in or out makes not much difference, except that it's fact that our economy started rebuilding in the 70s after we joined.
Fair challenges - although it does raise the thought that who is in charge of macro economic policy than EU membership. On one, particularly in London I think we live in a bit of a bubble. We conflate recovery here with recovery everywhere. The effects of 08 still loom large. Leave or stay the remedies are the same: mostly some old school Keynesian intervention, which the EU makes a little difficult especially in lieu of running public services for the public good.
I also don't want to be that guy but also Brexit has covered some long term structural problems for the EU. Macron's rep is in the dirt and Merkel is leaving - who will rep the great Franco-German axis that has pushed the Eurozone with Italy steadfastly refusing to move away from debt crisis status? How will Ireland cope with a Thatcherite regime that has turned into essentially a tax haven with a housing crisis that makes ours look small fry?
But then, my economic views are very left wing and I'm conscious of a bit of confirmation bias in my conclusions
Don't want to quote your whole post and clog the board hoppa, similar to the last reply there are fair challenges there, and I don't presume to be absolutely right, not am I advocating a hard leave position.
I just think leave or remain, the underlying causes as you say need addressing - but I worry Lord Adonis and Alaistair Campbell aren't really motivated by that, and I think if we were to remain that messaging needs a lot of work!
Corbyn got a lot of heat for saying he was 7/10 on the EU in the campaign, but I now see people draping themselves in EU flags pretending like it's perfect and it just strikes me as incredibly deluded and not a message that's going to carry the day. Likewise - talking about the economy when you live a place that has been ravaged over 30 years by governments of all colours. And I think if people who want remain don't go through this rigour, Leave would win again
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Our country is fckd match thread on 18:24 - Jan 16 with 3271 views
Our country is fckd match thread on 17:43 - Jan 16 by robith
Fair challenges - although it does raise the thought that who is in charge of macro economic policy than EU membership. On one, particularly in London I think we live in a bit of a bubble. We conflate recovery here with recovery everywhere. The effects of 08 still loom large. Leave or stay the remedies are the same: mostly some old school Keynesian intervention, which the EU makes a little difficult especially in lieu of running public services for the public good.
I also don't want to be that guy but also Brexit has covered some long term structural problems for the EU. Macron's rep is in the dirt and Merkel is leaving - who will rep the great Franco-German axis that has pushed the Eurozone with Italy steadfastly refusing to move away from debt crisis status? How will Ireland cope with a Thatcherite regime that has turned into essentially a tax haven with a housing crisis that makes ours look small fry?
But then, my economic views are very left wing and I'm conscious of a bit of confirmation bias in my conclusions
My post was a bit harsh on rereading yours - a bit like kicking off in the home end after too much export lager.
Agreed re the need for a Keynesian blast after 2008, and after the miners's strike to be honest - if only the government then had thrown money at new universities and tech clusters in ex-mining areas to make the UK a leader in sustainable energy, sustainable transport, regreening etc. and that's not just hindsight, lots of people accepted that coal had to go but major alternative investment was needed, not just regional development agencies to manage Objective 3 funds.
Similarly, I can see the logic of creating the gig economy in 2008/9 as a first step to get people out of unemployment and in a better position to get a better, more productive job but a decade in and no end in sight to austerity - i don't blame anyone for being angry. The U-turn on the northern powerhouse project was crucial I think, it doesn't take the world to give people hope for the future and snatching that away was incredibly short-sighted.
A magnificent football club, the love of our lives, finding a way to finally have its day in the sun.
Clearly 2/3 of parliament voted against May's deal, but as I said weeks ago on here, they (parliament) needs to come up with a plan they CAN agree on.
Surely no deal and new referendum votes would also be defeated - probably by a similar margin.
Likewise I don't see how a new government in 2 months time brings us any further forward on the B question does it?
Surely the time for 'consensus' governing was lost by Cameron who at least didn't have a referendum result, article 50 nor a minority position to hinder him.
THAT was the chance to get concessions from the EU that could be voted through by parliament.
Easy to say now I guess, but whatever happens SOME agreement has to be reached and for that to happen MPs have to stop stating what they do NOT accept and start saying what they WILL agree to.
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
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Our country is fckd match thread on 18:27 - Jan 16 with 3265 views
Our country is fckd match thread on 17:52 - Jan 16 by robith
Don't want to quote your whole post and clog the board hoppa, similar to the last reply there are fair challenges there, and I don't presume to be absolutely right, not am I advocating a hard leave position.
I just think leave or remain, the underlying causes as you say need addressing - but I worry Lord Adonis and Alaistair Campbell aren't really motivated by that, and I think if we were to remain that messaging needs a lot of work!
Corbyn got a lot of heat for saying he was 7/10 on the EU in the campaign, but I now see people draping themselves in EU flags pretending like it's perfect and it just strikes me as incredibly deluded and not a message that's going to carry the day. Likewise - talking about the economy when you live a place that has been ravaged over 30 years by governments of all colours. And I think if people who want remain don't go through this rigour, Leave would win again
Ha ha Robith, we're crowding out the airwaves with reason and dialogue :)
Agree with you on the Alasdair Campbell effect and to some extent the flag-wearing EUnationalists.
But I think Corbyn's dead wrong on state aid, nationalizing projects have no problem with it, it's only there to prevent jobs for the (local private sector) boys and to give leverage against the Amazons of the world.
A magnificent football club, the love of our lives, finding a way to finally have its day in the sun.
She's coming out again at 10pm apparently, big statement. If this isn't a 70 minute powerpoint on how Derby County line up for away games what's the point?
2
Our country is fckd match thread on 21:17 - Jan 16 with 2993 views
Our country is fckd match thread on 21:13 - Jan 16 by Northernr
She's coming out again at 10pm apparently, big statement. If this isn't a 70 minute powerpoint on how Derby County line up for away games what's the point?
Just spoken with a mate who's a government researcher. May is due to resign having been outed as the Leeds spy at Derby's training ground. Didn't see that one coming.
EDIT: Okay, it seems my mate may have got that one wrong.
[Post edited 16 Jan 2019 22:16]
Fulham FC: It's the taking part that counts
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Our country is fckd match thread on 23:46 - Jan 16 with 2736 views
After March 2019 if there’s no deal If the UK leaves the EU in March 2019 with no agreement in place, UK and EU licensed airlines would lose the automatic right to operate air services between the UK and the EU without seeking advance permission. This would mean that airlines operating between the UK and the EU would need to seek individual permissions to operate. EU-licensed airlines would lose the ability to operate wholly within the UK (for example from Heathrow to Edinburgh) and UK-licensed airlines would lose the ability to operate intra-EU air services (for example from Milan to Paris).
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one's lifetime." (Mark Twain)
Find me on twitter @derbyhoop and now on Bluesky
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Our country is fckd match thread on 07:44 - Jan 17 with 2594 views
I thought Corbyns temper tantrum and refusal to get involved in negotiations spoke volumes about him, always been more labour than Tory but his refusal to offer anything on Brexit other than tell everyone else they are wrong has been pathetic.
I mean May is an absolute disaster, like having Mr Bean in charge and yet he's still managing to look like the idiot.
This will cost him when the next election comes
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Our country is fckd match thread on 07:50 - Jan 17 with 2587 views
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