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Who's paranoid I did not say they were evil but of course calling anybody critical of the EU names is easy. They are a club that wants their own way no problem with that but let's be honest and everybody admit it. How many referenda have been held that produced a result that the EU did not want and was not be repeated. What May has put forward is worse than us staying in the EU but nobody wants to be seen to go against the referendum so for last two years there has been frantic attempts at cooking up a position that's looks like we have left without actually leaving
"How many referenda have been held that produced a result that the EU did not want and was not be repeated."
Nine. Norway 1972 (didn't join Common Market) Greenland 1982 (left EC having previously joined as part of Denmark) Switzerland 1992 (didn't join EEA) Norway 1994 (didn't join EU) Denmark 2000 (didn't join euro) Sweden 2003 (ditto) Netherlands and France 2005 (rejected EU constitution, which was dropped as result) Netherlands 2016 (advisory referendum on EU-Ukraine agreement; forced changes to the agreement.) UK 2016 (Brexit)
I can find two examples of referenda which were re-run: Denmark 1992-3 - 1st ref. rejected Maastricht Treaty, 2nd approved it. But four opt-outs agreed before 2nd Ref so not strictly case of re-running the same ref. Ireland: 2002 Treaty of Nice - 1st ref turned down 24th Amendment to Irish constitution - "No" campaign argued it would breach Irish neutrality; 2nd ref was on 26th Amendment, re-drafted to preserve neutrality.
So I can't find a single referendum which was re-run on the exact same question as originally asked.
You could argue Norway '72 and '94 were same question but it's a 22 year gap and it was the Norwegian govt which called the ref, not the EU; also there's one example the other way round (UK '74 stayed in 2016 voted to leave.)
4
David Davis + Boris on 01:40 - Jul 13 with 2803 views
The evil EU is out to get you. Only the selfless Johnson and Rees-Mogg can save us. Men of the people.
Re: Rees Mogg and Boris Johnson
These two people gaining power absolutely terrify me. One wants to drag us back to some scary nineteenth century facsimile of Britain, where the lower classes knew their places, women were tied to the kitchen table and were kept permanently pregnant so they couldn’t work or have time for opinions, and the ruling classes maintained the status quo of privilege for those who went to Eton or Harrow. They have no interest or idea about people’s lives outside their silos. The other one treats politics like a board game where you have to gain as much power and resources as possible by any means at your disposal but then you don’t need to do anything once you’ve gained it.
I don’t know why Brexiteers are bothered by another referendum. Surely if people were so informed about what they were voting for and had such strong convictions, then they would vote Brexit again. Except that the people who really have an investment in the future, the young who couldn’t vote in the original referendum, will vote largely Remain. While those that are clinging onto the idea of a golden era that really never existed, may now not even be alive to vote. And those many people that just wanted to see what would happen, or who wanted to protest against benefit cuts (nothing to do with the EU but still), or who realise they were lied to by Gove and Johnson may also change their minds. But now people have a better idea of what it will actually mean, then it will be real democracy to have another vote. If you’re sure of your case, and that the 17 million knew what they wanted, then you have nothing to fear...
7
David Davis + Boris on 06:09 - Jul 13 with 2767 views
Who's paranoid I did not say they were evil but of course calling anybody critical of the EU names is easy. They are a club that wants their own way no problem with that but let's be honest and everybody admit it. How many referenda have been held that produced a result that the EU did not want and was not be repeated. What May has put forward is worse than us staying in the EU but nobody wants to be seen to go against the referendum so for last two years there has been frantic attempts at cooking up a position that's looks like we have left without actually leaving
Yes there’s a reason for that. Even Brexiteers know a hard Brexit is economic carnage and the poorest will suffer. A fudge is an attempt to mitigate that. It’s not just born out of some ideology or love for the EU.
2
David Davis + Boris on 06:10 - Jul 13 with 2765 views
These two people gaining power absolutely terrify me. One wants to drag us back to some scary nineteenth century facsimile of Britain, where the lower classes knew their places, women were tied to the kitchen table and were kept permanently pregnant so they couldn’t work or have time for opinions, and the ruling classes maintained the status quo of privilege for those who went to Eton or Harrow. They have no interest or idea about people’s lives outside their silos. The other one treats politics like a board game where you have to gain as much power and resources as possible by any means at your disposal but then you don’t need to do anything once you’ve gained it.
I don’t know why Brexiteers are bothered by another referendum. Surely if people were so informed about what they were voting for and had such strong convictions, then they would vote Brexit again. Except that the people who really have an investment in the future, the young who couldn’t vote in the original referendum, will vote largely Remain. While those that are clinging onto the idea of a golden era that really never existed, may now not even be alive to vote. And those many people that just wanted to see what would happen, or who wanted to protest against benefit cuts (nothing to do with the EU but still), or who realise they were lied to by Gove and Johnson may also change their minds. But now people have a better idea of what it will actually mean, then it will be real democracy to have another vote. If you’re sure of your case, and that the 17 million knew what they wanted, then you have nothing to fear...
Tragically I think Leave would win by a landslide but you’d guarantee a good turnout.
1
David Davis + Boris on 07:21 - Jul 13 with 2730 views
These two people gaining power absolutely terrify me. One wants to drag us back to some scary nineteenth century facsimile of Britain, where the lower classes knew their places, women were tied to the kitchen table and were kept permanently pregnant so they couldn’t work or have time for opinions, and the ruling classes maintained the status quo of privilege for those who went to Eton or Harrow. They have no interest or idea about people’s lives outside their silos. The other one treats politics like a board game where you have to gain as much power and resources as possible by any means at your disposal but then you don’t need to do anything once you’ve gained it.
I don’t know why Brexiteers are bothered by another referendum. Surely if people were so informed about what they were voting for and had such strong convictions, then they would vote Brexit again. Except that the people who really have an investment in the future, the young who couldn’t vote in the original referendum, will vote largely Remain. While those that are clinging onto the idea of a golden era that really never existed, may now not even be alive to vote. And those many people that just wanted to see what would happen, or who wanted to protest against benefit cuts (nothing to do with the EU but still), or who realise they were lied to by Gove and Johnson may also change their minds. But now people have a better idea of what it will actually mean, then it will be real democracy to have another vote. If you’re sure of your case, and that the 17 million knew what they wanted, then you have nothing to fear...
You are assuming everyone who dies would have voted to leave, you forget that an equal no of people will have moved into that "older" age group to replace them .
I took notice of the high youth unemployment and frustrated ambitions in Italy, Spain, Greece and Portugal when I voted . I have 3 boys in their 20s and 30s and hope to have grandchildren whom I thought about .
My objection to another vote isnt that i think Leave will lose but the original was said by everyone leave or remain that it was once in a lifetime choice .
What happens if leave win 55/45 is that enough or we go round again? Or remain win 52/48 and all the arguments get turned around and we go again ?
0
David Davis + Boris on 07:46 - Jul 13 with 2705 views
Really? Why do you think that? If that’s true, I really despair.
It would be interesting to know, even just for the sake of curiosity.
For sure there would be a switch from non-voters to Remain but I think there’d be a switch to Leave too as people want to see the first vote upheld (in a way other than how it is already being upheld). You’d inevitably still get the same turkeys voting for Christmas along with those who will be too rich or too dead in 20 years to care.
0
David Davis + Boris on 07:56 - Jul 13 with 2696 views
It would be interesting to know, even just for the sake of curiosity.
For sure there would be a switch from non-voters to Remain but I think there’d be a switch to Leave too as people want to see the first vote upheld (in a way other than how it is already being upheld). You’d inevitably still get the same turkeys voting for Christmas along with those who will be too rich or too dead in 20 years to care.
You would get some leavers changing to remain because they believe that its just too difficult
But but many more (IMO) remainers changing to leave because their house didnt drop by 18% , their was no immediate shock to the economy , no recession, no emergency budget, Obama was put up to his comments by Cameron , economic forecasts havnt come true , stock markets are up , unemployment at an all time low
Their was a party in the last election who championed remain , they didnt get many votes .
David Davis + Boris on 07:56 - Jul 13 by essextaxiboy
You would get some leavers changing to remain because they believe that its just too difficult
But but many more (IMO) remainers changing to leave because their house didnt drop by 18% , their was no immediate shock to the economy , no recession, no emergency budget, Obama was put up to his comments by Cameron , economic forecasts havnt come true , stock markets are up , unemployment at an all time low
Their was a party in the last election who championed remain , they didnt get many votes .
[Post edited 13 Jul 2018 7:58]
Well my point is that if you think the vote will be the same, and even more people will vote leave then there’s no problem for you then, is there. I think what leavers are really worried about is that the vote WILL age different as they realise they’ve been duped.
As for there being no negative change, companies are planning to move jobs to the continent. The pound has fallen through the floor. The stock market is not necessarily a good barometer of underlying economic performance in the short term, particularly in global markets. The number of nurses wanting to come to the UK has plummeted which will eventually affect the NHS.
Other countries have not been clamouring to sign trade agreements with us. We will be in a much worse negotiating position to make agreements as other countries know we are desperate. We rely a lot on service industries that can be based anywhere. London will be a less desirable destination.
Trump is already backing down a trade deal. Europe will hate us, so will give us unfavourable terms.
As for the point by pp about older voters dying but being replaced by other older people, I think it’s unlikely that people will change their vote because they’re two years older. It’s more that particular generation that hark back to some non existent golden era (where everyone was white and there was no crime) that are dying out.
1
David Davis + Boris on 08:51 - Jul 13 with 2636 views
Well my point is that if you think the vote will be the same, and even more people will vote leave then there’s no problem for you then, is there. I think what leavers are really worried about is that the vote WILL age different as they realise they’ve been duped.
As for there being no negative change, companies are planning to move jobs to the continent. The pound has fallen through the floor. The stock market is not necessarily a good barometer of underlying economic performance in the short term, particularly in global markets. The number of nurses wanting to come to the UK has plummeted which will eventually affect the NHS.
Other countries have not been clamouring to sign trade agreements with us. We will be in a much worse negotiating position to make agreements as other countries know we are desperate. We rely a lot on service industries that can be based anywhere. London will be a less desirable destination.
Trump is already backing down a trade deal. Europe will hate us, so will give us unfavourable terms.
As for the point by pp about older voters dying but being replaced by other older people, I think it’s unlikely that people will change their vote because they’re two years older. It’s more that particular generation that hark back to some non existent golden era (where everyone was white and there was no crime) that are dying out.
Except of course the pound hasn't "fallen through the floor". It was artificially overvalued before the referendum and is now at about it's average level against the Euro historically speaking.
2
David Davis + Boris on 08:58 - Jul 13 with 2618 views
Well my point is that if you think the vote will be the same, and even more people will vote leave then there’s no problem for you then, is there. I think what leavers are really worried about is that the vote WILL age different as they realise they’ve been duped.
As for there being no negative change, companies are planning to move jobs to the continent. The pound has fallen through the floor. The stock market is not necessarily a good barometer of underlying economic performance in the short term, particularly in global markets. The number of nurses wanting to come to the UK has plummeted which will eventually affect the NHS.
Other countries have not been clamouring to sign trade agreements with us. We will be in a much worse negotiating position to make agreements as other countries know we are desperate. We rely a lot on service industries that can be based anywhere. London will be a less desirable destination.
Trump is already backing down a trade deal. Europe will hate us, so will give us unfavourable terms.
As for the point by pp about older voters dying but being replaced by other older people, I think it’s unlikely that people will change their vote because they’re two years older. It’s more that particular generation that hark back to some non existent golden era (where everyone was white and there was no crime) that are dying out.
These are valid concerns Nix.
But as the Icelandic PM said, 'of course we'll trade with the UK after Brexit'.
The real issue, is to what extent the neo-lib elite both within and outside the EU, want to make an example of the UK? If that's the world we live in, then it's a sorry state of affairs.
I keep reminding myself of how much doom was being mongered when Greece looked like going to the wall. The ramifications of the UK going to the wall would have a far greater effect and thus, if this all goes through and when the dust eventually settles, I think the global economy will just accept that there is no advantage to seeing the 5th biggest economy go to the wall.
The reason no deals are being done yet is, I believe, due to EU rules preventing a departing member from doing so until its actually left.
The UK is the biggest export market for German cars, we buy 14% of what they make - a downturn in demand would have a disastrous affect on Merkel. We buy more goods from them then we sell, and it's our services to the EU that effectively, keeps us afloat - and that is likely to take a hit, but not to the extent that it ruins the UK I would suggest.
Thus, it's not really in the EU's interests to do over the UK for they will be biting their nose off to spite their face. Equally, each remaining member state is going to see a tax rise of something like 1% to make up the deficit of the UK withdrawal. Tax needs trade to generate income.
Remember, it takes the EU decades to do a trade deal and even then, the Walloonians can nearly scupper it. If we can get our act together, we can and should be able to move quicker than the EU ever has or, can.
In summary, the two problems the UK faces are: a totally useless government and collection of MPs on all sides of the house; and the potential for outside financial/neo-lib interests to send a message to the world economies - we hold the power, not you and certainly not the people!
'Always In Motion' by John Honney available on amazon.co.uk
Much has been made of the behaviour of the lukewarm leavers, but what doesn't seem to have been noticed is the behaviour of the lukewarm remainers. Alongside Davis and Johnson, Steve Baker also resigned. But who persuaded the Eurosceptic Baker to join the Conservative Party in the first place? The following passage is from Tim Shipman's account of Brexit:
'For the key post of co-chairman in the Commons [of Leave group Conservatives for Britain founded in 2015], Elliott and Daniel Hannan approached Steve Baker, the MP for Wycombe. At forty-four, Baker had only been an MP since 2010 — but he was liked and trusted by all factions on the Conservative benches. An RAF engineer who retrained as a chartered surveyor and then a software engineer, Baker was devoutly religious — he was baptised during a full-body immersion in the sea — and had been gifted with the innocent face of a chorister. Behind the smile, Hannan and Elliott also saw a man prepared to take risks: Baker was a keen skydiver, with more than two hundred jumps to his name.
When Hannan approached him, he had just one pitch: 'There's no one else to do it.' Baker himself joked later that he got the job because he was a 'cleanskin', untainted by the battles of the past. Hannan remembered, 'I thought, everyone likes Steve Baker, everyone trusts him, he's a born-again Christian, he is just incapable of dishonesty.'
Baker was also a resolute Eurosceptic, who like Hannan had come into politics to get Britain out of the EU. Unlike Hannan, his inspiration was not a Latvian foreign minister, but David Cameron himself. Baker had flirted with the idea of joining Ukip, but decided the Tory Party was the vessel that would bring about Brexit: 'One of the principal reasons I knew the Conservative Party could be relied upon on the EU is that in 2007 David Cameron went to the Czech Republic and made a speech in which he said the EU was the "last gasp of an outdated ideology, a philosophy which has no place in our new world of freedom". David Cameron inspired me to join the Conservative Party.''
Tim Shipman, All Out War - How Brexit Sank Britain's Political Class, (2016)
Air hostess clique
0
David Davis + Boris on 12:27 - Jul 13 with 2474 views
But as the Icelandic PM said, 'of course we'll trade with the UK after Brexit'.
The real issue, is to what extent the neo-lib elite both within and outside the EU, want to make an example of the UK? If that's the world we live in, then it's a sorry state of affairs.
I keep reminding myself of how much doom was being mongered when Greece looked like going to the wall. The ramifications of the UK going to the wall would have a far greater effect and thus, if this all goes through and when the dust eventually settles, I think the global economy will just accept that there is no advantage to seeing the 5th biggest economy go to the wall.
The reason no deals are being done yet is, I believe, due to EU rules preventing a departing member from doing so until its actually left.
The UK is the biggest export market for German cars, we buy 14% of what they make - a downturn in demand would have a disastrous affect on Merkel. We buy more goods from them then we sell, and it's our services to the EU that effectively, keeps us afloat - and that is likely to take a hit, but not to the extent that it ruins the UK I would suggest.
Thus, it's not really in the EU's interests to do over the UK for they will be biting their nose off to spite their face. Equally, each remaining member state is going to see a tax rise of something like 1% to make up the deficit of the UK withdrawal. Tax needs trade to generate income.
Remember, it takes the EU decades to do a trade deal and even then, the Walloonians can nearly scupper it. If we can get our act together, we can and should be able to move quicker than the EU ever has or, can.
In summary, the two problems the UK faces are: a totally useless government and collection of MPs on all sides of the house; and the potential for outside financial/neo-lib interests to send a message to the world economies - we hold the power, not you and certainly not the people!
I think one reason people were worried about Greece going to the wall was the massive exposure of our banks to Greek debt.
I don’t think Brexit will lead to us falling through the floor. What I do see is a gradual decline and a lessening of significance. Macron is angling for a lot of the business of the City. He’s offering tax incentives for people to locate to Paris. We won’t be able to clear transactions in Euros post Brexit. Even though we’re not in the Euro we can do this now.
I believe that when decisions are made post Brexit about where to locate new business, it will be more convenient to locate it in an EU country than in the UK. I don’t know this. But that’s my belief. People in other countries are not admiring us for Brexit. They’re laughing at us. So many of us don’t want it and it’s more the people who have a bigger investment in their future than their past who I feel for (29% of u25s voted leave against 64% of over 65s) .
1
David Davis + Boris on 12:42 - Jul 13 with 2456 views
Two quick points: - Remember we are still in the EU. Some of the negative impacts of leaving are yet to kick in. - Of course other countries will still want to trade with us. The bigger issue is that we may end up paying extra for goods and services, e.g. due to import taxes. The argument that goes "The Germans will still want to sell us our cars" is a glib and naive one because it conveniently ignores the fact that if we have no trade deal with them, we will pay more.
The frustrating thing is that a lot of the politicians who have used this argument know very well how this works but have chosen to sweep it under the carpet.
RFA
"Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1."
0
David Davis + Boris on 12:51 - Jul 13 with 2444 views
David Davis + Boris on 12:46 - Jul 13 by R_from_afar
Two quick points: - Remember we are still in the EU. Some of the negative impacts of leaving are yet to kick in. - Of course other countries will still want to trade with us. The bigger issue is that we may end up paying extra for goods and services, e.g. due to import taxes. The argument that goes "The Germans will still want to sell us our cars" is a glib and naive one because it conveniently ignores the fact that if we have no trade deal with them, we will pay more.
The frustrating thing is that a lot of the politicians who have used this argument know very well how this works but have chosen to sweep it under the carpet.
RFA
"- Of course other countries will still want to trade with us. The bigger issue is that we may end up paying extra for goods and services, e.g. due to import taxes."
Can you explain that. If A wants to sell to B then it is in A's interest not to make it more expensive. Of course I might be missing something
0
David Davis + Boris on 13:05 - Jul 13 with 2422 views
Well my point is that if you think the vote will be the same, and even more people will vote leave then there’s no problem for you then, is there. I think what leavers are really worried about is that the vote WILL age different as they realise they’ve been duped.
As for there being no negative change, companies are planning to move jobs to the continent. The pound has fallen through the floor. The stock market is not necessarily a good barometer of underlying economic performance in the short term, particularly in global markets. The number of nurses wanting to come to the UK has plummeted which will eventually affect the NHS.
Other countries have not been clamouring to sign trade agreements with us. We will be in a much worse negotiating position to make agreements as other countries know we are desperate. We rely a lot on service industries that can be based anywhere. London will be a less desirable destination.
Trump is already backing down a trade deal. Europe will hate us, so will give us unfavourable terms.
As for the point by pp about older voters dying but being replaced by other older people, I think it’s unlikely that people will change their vote because they’re two years older. It’s more that particular generation that hark back to some non existent golden era (where everyone was white and there was no crime) that are dying out.
Trump has been put up to his remarks by Farage, as Obama was by Cameron.
Your dog whistle rascism comment at the end demeans your argument IMO.
I researched it , I researched the backgrounds of the various sources of information for bias
I was not duped .
[Post edited 13 Jul 2018 13:05]
0
David Davis + Boris on 13:12 - Jul 13 with 2406 views
Except of course the pound hasn't "fallen through the floor". It was artificially overvalued before the referendum and is now at about it's average level against the Euro historically speaking.
Have you actually run the numbers on that? I've just looked at a EURGBP chart since 1999 and it looks highly unlikely. The euro peaked against sterling during the financial crisis when several very large UK banks essentially went bust and had to be bailed out. Sterling gradually recovered over a number of years until the referendum because the UK economy was outperforming the euro zone. Where it is now is very much a direct result of Brexit.
David Davis + Boris on 13:12 - Jul 13 by kensalriser
Have you actually run the numbers on that? I've just looked at a EURGBP chart since 1999 and it looks highly unlikely. The euro peaked against sterling during the financial crisis when several very large UK banks essentially went bust and had to be bailed out. Sterling gradually recovered over a number of years until the referendum because the UK economy was outperforming the euro zone. Where it is now is very much a direct result of Brexit.
The IMF are hardly the last word on accuracy , but here is their opinion in the FT from 28/07/2014
The International Monetary Fund warned on Monday that the pound was “overvalued” and preventing the rebalancing of the economy away from a reliance on spending and imports.
In its annual assessment of the UK economy, the fund said sterling was between 5 and 10 per cent overvalued because of a “lack of competitiveness and limited export diversification”.
[Post edited 13 Jul 2018 13:30]
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David Davis + Boris on 13:59 - Jul 13 with 2343 views
I think one reason people were worried about Greece going to the wall was the massive exposure of our banks to Greek debt.
I don’t think Brexit will lead to us falling through the floor. What I do see is a gradual decline and a lessening of significance. Macron is angling for a lot of the business of the City. He’s offering tax incentives for people to locate to Paris. We won’t be able to clear transactions in Euros post Brexit. Even though we’re not in the Euro we can do this now.
I believe that when decisions are made post Brexit about where to locate new business, it will be more convenient to locate it in an EU country than in the UK. I don’t know this. But that’s my belief. People in other countries are not admiring us for Brexit. They’re laughing at us. So many of us don’t want it and it’s more the people who have a bigger investment in their future than their past who I feel for (29% of u25s voted leave against 64% of over 65s) .
Thing about the over-64s, they were the generation who voted us in to something that has changed immeasurably since then. 81% of whom voted.
As for the u24s, they were the lowest turn out with only 36% going to the polls.
Just saying...
'Always In Motion' by John Honney available on amazon.co.uk
"- Of course other countries will still want to trade with us. The bigger issue is that we may end up paying extra for goods and services, e.g. due to import taxes."
Can you explain that. If A wants to sell to B then it is in A's interest not to make it more expensive. Of course I might be missing something
Don't get me wrong, I don't want to pay more for stuff just to prove a point!
The Times, as an example, states that if we end up with a hard Brexit which sees us trading under WTO rules, BMWs will cost us 10% more. BMW have also said that that scenario will result in UK customers paying more for its vehicles.
RFA
"Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1."
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