| David Davis on 14:27 - Jul 10 with 2901 views | bob566 |
| David Davis on 14:17 - Jul 10 by paulparker |
For me the main points of Brexit was that we become an independent Sovereign nation who would be free to trade with whoever we wanted through out the world , we would be free to deal with china, india without another eu country poking there nose in that we would also have control of our borders and that our fisherman get access to our waters before an Eu fisherman,
coming out would cost millions but long term I believe we would/will be better off this is a country of 60 million we would prosper
what we needed was a strong leader and a strong Government to implement the best deals for us as a country, unfortunately we are stuck with May, Gove, Johnson and co who cant even get the tories united let alone serve the British public its all been about egos and dick swinging the only one who comes out with any credit is Davies , labour must be licking their lips as they know they are in next and will be for a very long time (although I think corbyn and chums don't really want the gig ) |
but will those big countries deal with the UK favourably or for whatever suits them.
Its kind of like a food supplier with tescos. These big companies are always driving suppliers to lower their costs until the supplier goes bust or has to wind up as it's not viable anymore. |  | |  |
| David Davis + Boris on 14:32 - Jul 10 with 2879 views | THEBUSH |
I´ll never forgive those who wanted us out
They didn´t give a sh%t or thought for those who live and work elsewhere in the EU.
As someone once said, I forget but never forgive. |  | | |
| David Davis on 14:33 - Jul 10 with 2863 views | PlanetHonneywood |
| David Davis on 08:47 - Jul 10 by Antti_Heinola |
What did they vote for Paul? All the of them a hard brexit? All of then to leave the customs union? These questions were not on the ballot. Take away protest votes, people who regret their vote and those that on balance, especially now the reality of this expensive sht-storm is like, would’ve preferred sonething softer, and you’re probably talking about a decision less than 10m support. Insanity, really.
By the way, Sourhgate’s done all right for a yes man worh no balls to change anything hasn’t he?! |
Not sure I agree with you!
You do realise that what people voted for in 1974 i.e. to join a trading bloc, is not what we voted out of in 2016. So, taking your logic, when people who voted join back then, did they know what they were voting for and, would they have voted in if they had known what was to transpire?
What did remainers vote for then? They had no idea either as to what the EU will become. An EU that Brussels have finally realised, needs changing (largely because they woke on 24 June and realised, the British sentiment was not isolated (c.f. Macron admitting he could not predict what a Francexit vote would be)).
But will the citizens of the EU states get a say in the 'new-EU' much less choice? Or will they get a choice and keep getting a choice until they finally vote for what the EU wants?
To say that only Remainers knew what they were voting for, and that Brexiteers didn't, does not hold water. Many I am sure voted because of spurious reasons on both sides, as they did after applying what ever reasoning process they did.
And what amazes me about the 'didn't know what we were voting for' argument, is that it assumes everyone goes to a general election knowing what and why they are voting. Many just vote for the party their parents and grandparents voted for and, in reality, many vote by looking at what is or, is not in their wallet, and deciding accordingly. How many people ever read all the manifestos?
The notion that 'we were lied to' is another peach. Can you tell me a general election where the party that wins keeps its promises? Its a perpetual event, you are promised nirvana, and you end up with Luton.
But if the losing 48% get this overturned, then we have to be careful of the precedent this sets. Its a road to ruin and if it happens, I sure as shit want the 1997 general election overturned, because we were going to be lied to about going into illegal wars, and no one told us that Noel Gallagher would be drinking at No. 10.
A monumental cock-up that only the neo-liberals will win from...sadly, either way. |  |
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| David Davis + Boris on 14:37 - Jul 10 with 2856 views | hopphoops |
| David Davis + Boris on 14:32 - Jul 10 by THEBUSH |
I´ll never forgive those who wanted us out
They didn´t give a sh%t or thought for those who live and work elsewhere in the EU.
As someone once said, I forget but never forgive. |
We are just the vanguard. |  |
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| David Davis + Boris on 14:48 - Jul 10 with 2821 views | THEBUSH |
| David Davis + Boris on 14:37 - Jul 10 by hopphoops |
We are just the vanguard. |
Don´t think so, Germany and France ain´t going anywhere soon. | | | |
| David Davis + Boris on 15:03 - Jul 10 with 2791 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
| David Davis + Boris on 14:32 - Jul 10 by THEBUSH |
I´ll never forgive those who wanted us out
They didn´t give a sh%t or thought for those who live and work elsewhere in the EU.
As someone once said, I forget but never forgive. |
You are right, I don't
Same as those aboard don't give a shite about people here |  |
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| David Davis + Boris on 15:07 - Jul 10 with 2775 views | hopphoops |
| David Davis + Boris on 14:48 - Jul 10 by THEBUSH |
Don´t think so, Germany and France ain´t going anywhere soon. |
What i meant was that we are the first of further millions who will leave Britain to work or live in Europe, not least when their employers take them.
Danny Dyer'll be ok, he's already booked for Auf Wiedersehen Pet 2030. | |
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| David Davis on 15:08 - Jul 10 with 2773 views | Cammington |
| David Davis on 14:33 - Jul 10 by PlanetHonneywood |
Not sure I agree with you!
You do realise that what people voted for in 1974 i.e. to join a trading bloc, is not what we voted out of in 2016. So, taking your logic, when people who voted join back then, did they know what they were voting for and, would they have voted in if they had known what was to transpire?
What did remainers vote for then? They had no idea either as to what the EU will become. An EU that Brussels have finally realised, needs changing (largely because they woke on 24 June and realised, the British sentiment was not isolated (c.f. Macron admitting he could not predict what a Francexit vote would be)).
But will the citizens of the EU states get a say in the 'new-EU' much less choice? Or will they get a choice and keep getting a choice until they finally vote for what the EU wants?
To say that only Remainers knew what they were voting for, and that Brexiteers didn't, does not hold water. Many I am sure voted because of spurious reasons on both sides, as they did after applying what ever reasoning process they did.
And what amazes me about the 'didn't know what we were voting for' argument, is that it assumes everyone goes to a general election knowing what and why they are voting. Many just vote for the party their parents and grandparents voted for and, in reality, many vote by looking at what is or, is not in their wallet, and deciding accordingly. How many people ever read all the manifestos?
The notion that 'we were lied to' is another peach. Can you tell me a general election where the party that wins keeps its promises? Its a perpetual event, you are promised nirvana, and you end up with Luton.
But if the losing 48% get this overturned, then we have to be careful of the precedent this sets. Its a road to ruin and if it happens, I sure as shit want the 1997 general election overturned, because we were going to be lied to about going into illegal wars, and no one told us that Noel Gallagher would be drinking at No. 10.
A monumental cock-up that only the neo-liberals will win from...sadly, either way. |
I can agree with your first paragraph in that what was joined in 1974 was not what was voted to leave in 2016.
The rest of your post is complete nonsense though.
There were two options on the ballot paper. Remain or Leave. If you voted to Remain you knew *exactly* what you were getting. The status quo. There was no ambiguity there.
Vote Leave and the other bollocks campaign which has been found to have broke electoral law by the way, were allowed to sell unicorns and fairytales. Big fat slogans on the side of a bus. Norway models. The entire world queuing up to give us favorable trade deals! No more immigrants! Have your cake and eat it and when you're finished with that have some more cake because there's no downside and anyone who says otherwise is Project Fear.
So no, the public didn't know what they were voting for because it was never established what they were voting for. Leave the EU and hit the eject button on 40 years of integration. It's that simple. Except, amazingly, it isn't. The first thing the architects of this dumpster fire did was all f*ck off into the far reaches of 'Not-my-problemville' via Brexit means Brexit.
It's ok for some in here to say "Well I knew exactly what I was voting for and that was this". Cool story. The next person along probably voted for another reason. And another. Some voted as a protest to space lizard man "call me Dave" Cameron and his six poxy years of austerity.
A monumental cock up that means the ordinary people of this country suffer and it makes me bloody angry. |  | | |
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| David Davis + Boris on 15:09 - Jul 10 with 2767 views | THEBUSH |
| David Davis + Boris on 15:03 - Jul 10 by 2Thomas2Bowles |
You are right, I don't
Same as those aboard don't give a shite about people here |
I know you don´t, what a surprise. | | | |
| David Davis + Boris on 15:21 - Jul 10 with 2728 views | Beckenhamhoop |
I actually think we are the vanguard. This is the really sad thing that Brexit and the ensuing clusterfeck has caused so much grief and anger and yet the EU, as we know it now, is on its death bed. Italy could well have a vote and they’d definitely leave. Poland, Hungary and Slovakia are talking about increasing their own ties based on shared values and turning away from the EU.
Favourite cheese.......mountain. [Post edited 10 Jul 2018 15:23]
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| David Davis on 15:40 - Jul 10 with 2667 views | PlanetHonneywood |
| David Davis on 15:08 - Jul 10 by Cammington |
I can agree with your first paragraph in that what was joined in 1974 was not what was voted to leave in 2016.
The rest of your post is complete nonsense though.
There were two options on the ballot paper. Remain or Leave. If you voted to Remain you knew *exactly* what you were getting. The status quo. There was no ambiguity there.
Vote Leave and the other bollocks campaign which has been found to have broke electoral law by the way, were allowed to sell unicorns and fairytales. Big fat slogans on the side of a bus. Norway models. The entire world queuing up to give us favorable trade deals! No more immigrants! Have your cake and eat it and when you're finished with that have some more cake because there's no downside and anyone who says otherwise is Project Fear.
So no, the public didn't know what they were voting for because it was never established what they were voting for. Leave the EU and hit the eject button on 40 years of integration. It's that simple. Except, amazingly, it isn't. The first thing the architects of this dumpster fire did was all f*ck off into the far reaches of 'Not-my-problemville' via Brexit means Brexit.
It's ok for some in here to say "Well I knew exactly what I was voting for and that was this". Cool story. The next person along probably voted for another reason. And another. Some voted as a protest to space lizard man "call me Dave" Cameron and his six poxy years of austerity.
A monumental cock up that means the ordinary people of this country suffer and it makes me bloody angry. |
Suggest you reread my post and try to understand it before you criticise it. | |
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| David Davis on 15:43 - Jul 10 with 2665 views | Mytch_QPR |
| David Davis on 15:08 - Jul 10 by Cammington |
I can agree with your first paragraph in that what was joined in 1974 was not what was voted to leave in 2016.
The rest of your post is complete nonsense though.
There were two options on the ballot paper. Remain or Leave. If you voted to Remain you knew *exactly* what you were getting. The status quo. There was no ambiguity there.
Vote Leave and the other bollocks campaign which has been found to have broke electoral law by the way, were allowed to sell unicorns and fairytales. Big fat slogans on the side of a bus. Norway models. The entire world queuing up to give us favorable trade deals! No more immigrants! Have your cake and eat it and when you're finished with that have some more cake because there's no downside and anyone who says otherwise is Project Fear.
So no, the public didn't know what they were voting for because it was never established what they were voting for. Leave the EU and hit the eject button on 40 years of integration. It's that simple. Except, amazingly, it isn't. The first thing the architects of this dumpster fire did was all f*ck off into the far reaches of 'Not-my-problemville' via Brexit means Brexit.
It's ok for some in here to say "Well I knew exactly what I was voting for and that was this". Cool story. The next person along probably voted for another reason. And another. Some voted as a protest to space lizard man "call me Dave" Cameron and his six poxy years of austerity.
A monumental cock up that means the ordinary people of this country suffer and it makes me bloody angry. |
It was The Sun wot won it (and The Daily Fail) - that's what makes me angry.
So many Brexit voters really seemed to believe we could have all of the benefits and 'save' £350m a week (or whatever sum was being flung around) - so a huge amount of ignorance, really. One guy I had a brief (heated) discussion about it was convinced that Jaguar / Land Rover was British - as well as Vauxhall Motors.
Maybe a 'semi-Brexit' - as Boris calls it - is the best solution for trying to pacify the people as a whole. It's a mess, no doubt about it. |  |
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| David Davis + Boris on 15:45 - Jul 10 with 2660 views | hopphoops |
| David Davis + Boris on 15:21 - Jul 10 by Beckenhamhoop |
I actually think we are the vanguard. This is the really sad thing that Brexit and the ensuing clusterfeck has caused so much grief and anger and yet the EU, as we know it now, is on its death bed. Italy could well have a vote and they’d definitely leave. Poland, Hungary and Slovakia are talking about increasing their own ties based on shared values and turning away from the EU.
Favourite cheese.......mountain. [Post edited 10 Jul 2018 15:23]
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I think that Brexit and other challenges will spur the creation of a less complacent EU, which is good. But nobody in Europe is watching Brexit and thinking, I'll have some of that.
And short-term economic loss for longer-term gain is a fantasy. It might lead to a better approach but you don't claw back lost ground without a Marshall Plan.
I think that in 40 years or so Britain will rejoin a very different EU, or become a full tier 2 member of a 2-tier system.
Change is generally good in the long-term, it was just very generous of the UK to sacrifice itself in the process. | |
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| David Davis on 15:46 - Jul 10 with 2652 views | hopphoops |
| David Davis on 15:43 - Jul 10 by Mytch_QPR |
It was The Sun wot won it (and The Daily Fail) - that's what makes me angry.
So many Brexit voters really seemed to believe we could have all of the benefits and 'save' £350m a week (or whatever sum was being flung around) - so a huge amount of ignorance, really. One guy I had a brief (heated) discussion about it was convinced that Jaguar / Land Rover was British - as well as Vauxhall Motors.
Maybe a 'semi-Brexit' - as Boris calls it - is the best solution for trying to pacify the people as a whole. It's a mess, no doubt about it. |
If Vauxhall Motors aren't British why are they allowed in the FA Cup? Eh??? | |
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| David Davis on 16:02 - Jul 10 with 2606 views | distortR |
| David Davis on 15:46 - Jul 10 by hopphoops |
If Vauxhall Motors aren't British why are they allowed in the FA Cup? Eh??? |
If vauxhall motors is the EU, can Paul Furlong be brexit?
Cos at that point in time..................
And theBush, i didn't vote in this referendum, but next time I do I make sure I vote not on my beliefs and principles, but on the effect on people who I don't know. So if there were a referendum on nuclear weapons, I would have to vote to retain them because of the fear of people at Death inc losing their jobs. [Post edited 10 Jul 2018 16:05]
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| David Davis on 16:07 - Jul 10 with 2597 views | Cammington |
| David Davis on 15:40 - Jul 10 by PlanetHonneywood |
Suggest you reread my post and try to understand it before you criticise it. |
I do understand it mate and I get what you're insinuating that a remain vote would somehow be a ringing endorsement of the EU and we'll somehow end up with an EU superstate that we never voted for but that's never what the argument was about. It was always controlled by Leave and 'taking back control' and other empty platitudes. | | | |
| David Davis on 16:50 - Jul 10 with 2513 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| David Davis on 16:07 - Jul 10 by Cammington |
I do understand it mate and I get what you're insinuating that a remain vote would somehow be a ringing endorsement of the EU and we'll somehow end up with an EU superstate that we never voted for but that's never what the argument was about. It was always controlled by Leave and 'taking back control' and other empty platitudes. |
I voted remain in the same way I would vote to have Crabs instead of Syphilis. |  | | |
| David Davis + Boris on 17:23 - Jul 10 with 2473 views | QPR_John |
He doesn't not think much of anybody who disagrees with him | | | |
| David Davis on 17:25 - Jul 10 with 2473 views | Juzzie |
| David Davis on 16:07 - Jul 10 by Cammington |
I do understand it mate and I get what you're insinuating that a remain vote would somehow be a ringing endorsement of the EU and we'll somehow end up with an EU superstate that we never voted for but that's never what the argument was about. It was always controlled by Leave and 'taking back control' and other empty platitudes. |
Which shows that David Cameron didn't have a scooby about what was going on with the public opinion or even within his own parliament. He was so cock-sure of a Remain win that he even said on page 9 of the booklet (millions printed and paid for by the taxpayer) that he would abide by the result.
When the result came in he f**ked off leaving an almighty mess to sort out and is probably swanning around picking up large amounts telling everyone how to run things. |  | | |
| David Davis on 17:42 - Jul 10 with 2428 views | QPR_John |
| David Davis on 15:08 - Jul 10 by Cammington |
I can agree with your first paragraph in that what was joined in 1974 was not what was voted to leave in 2016.
The rest of your post is complete nonsense though.
There were two options on the ballot paper. Remain or Leave. If you voted to Remain you knew *exactly* what you were getting. The status quo. There was no ambiguity there.
Vote Leave and the other bollocks campaign which has been found to have broke electoral law by the way, were allowed to sell unicorns and fairytales. Big fat slogans on the side of a bus. Norway models. The entire world queuing up to give us favorable trade deals! No more immigrants! Have your cake and eat it and when you're finished with that have some more cake because there's no downside and anyone who says otherwise is Project Fear.
So no, the public didn't know what they were voting for because it was never established what they were voting for. Leave the EU and hit the eject button on 40 years of integration. It's that simple. Except, amazingly, it isn't. The first thing the architects of this dumpster fire did was all f*ck off into the far reaches of 'Not-my-problemville' via Brexit means Brexit.
It's ok for some in here to say "Well I knew exactly what I was voting for and that was this". Cool story. The next person along probably voted for another reason. And another. Some voted as a protest to space lizard man "call me Dave" Cameron and his six poxy years of austerity.
A monumental cock up that means the ordinary people of this country suffer and it makes me bloody angry. |
" If you voted to Remain you knew *exactly* what you were getting. The status quo. There was no ambiguity there. "
Do you really believe that. A remain vote would be a vote of confidence in Brussels and their route towards a federal Europe. The argument from the remain side is that leaving the EU will be an abject disaster no ifs or buts and this country cannot possibly function outside the EU. So what happens if Brussels wants us to take up the Euro we cannot leave the remainders arguments would still apply so we would have to accept. Interesting times [Post edited 10 Jul 2018 18:15]
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| David Davis on 18:04 - Jul 10 with 2408 views | colinallcars |
| David Davis on 17:42 - Jul 10 by QPR_John |
" If you voted to Remain you knew *exactly* what you were getting. The status quo. There was no ambiguity there. "
Do you really believe that. A remain vote would be a vote of confidence in Brussels and their route towards a federal Europe. The argument from the remain side is that leaving the EU will be an abject disaster no ifs or buts and this country cannot possibly function outside the EU. So what happens if Brussels wants us to take up the Euro we cannot leave the remainders arguments would still apply so we would have to accept. Interesting times [Post edited 10 Jul 2018 18:15]
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I think you were right in your earlier post John. The establishment will get their way and we will be an EU member in all but name. However we won't end up in a Federal Europe as we may have done under the old arrangements. |  | | |
| David Davis + Boris on 19:24 - Jul 10 with 2336 views | Beckenhamhoop |
| David Davis + Boris on 15:45 - Jul 10 by hopphoops |
I think that Brexit and other challenges will spur the creation of a less complacent EU, which is good. But nobody in Europe is watching Brexit and thinking, I'll have some of that.
And short-term economic loss for longer-term gain is a fantasy. It might lead to a better approach but you don't claw back lost ground without a Marshall Plan.
I think that in 40 years or so Britain will rejoin a very different EU, or become a full tier 2 member of a 2-tier system.
Change is generally good in the long-term, it was just very generous of the UK to sacrifice itself in the process. |
‘Nobody is watching Brexit and thinking I’ll have some of that’
Are you kidding? As has already been stated elsewhere in this thread, even Macron said he wasn’t sure if France would choose to stay in if offered a referendum. The Greeks would probably leave even though it could mean economic collapse.
Plus it’s not all about the economic situation. It is clearly immigration that is the dominant issue for many people. Particularly the Italians. There are more than rumblings in Austria, Germany, Sweden, Denmark.....
As for what happens or where we’ll be in 40 years time...who knows, you could be right. | | | |
| David Davis + Boris on 19:52 - Jul 10 with 2309 views | kensalriser |
Why do you consider the EU to be an adversary? |  |
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| David Davis + Boris on 20:21 - Jul 10 with 2289 views | CiderwithRsie |
| David Davis + Boris on 11:57 - Jul 10 by Phildo |
What both sides are saying is true.
Leaving while staying in the SM/CU (or a rebadged version of them) does reduce the UK to vassal status. Rule taker not a rule maker.
Leaving without a deal will cause a sudden and painful economic period of turmoil the likes of which have never been seen. May and her fudge is trying to avoid that as they have been told at this stage by a number of massive employers what is going to happen in the event of no deal. this does not mention what is going to happen to the city 9% of our tax revenue there alone.
We have already signed up to a backstop in December which guarantees if nothing else that Northern Ireland is staying in the customs union. The DUP will not accept this.
Staying in as it is does not respect the votes of the 17m.
There is no time for a second vote to try and legitimise a climbdown without the global humiliation of asking the EU to extend the article 50 period.
It is a circle that cannot be squared. The UK needs the EU to spontaneously self-combust to solve this riddle.
Something really complicated and technically beyond the comprehension of basically everyone was reduced to a binary yes no emotive vote which became tied up with nationality and immigration. It is alright though as Dave Cameron has a new shepherds hut in which to write he memoir 'the UK - my part in its downfall'. |
Excellent and balanced summary of why there are no good options. | | | |
| David Davis + Boris on 21:28 - Jul 10 with 2231 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| David Davis + Boris on 19:52 - Jul 10 by kensalriser |
Why do you consider the EU to be an adversary? |
Not really a adversarial but these are some reasons to vote Leave:
1) Treatment of Greece.
2) Liberalisation of Northern banks (and imposition of loans / austerity on Greece)
3) Failure to intervene (or condemn) suppression in Catalunya.
4) Courting TTIP.
5) Failure to recognise Palestine.
6) Re run of Lisbon treaty in Ireland.
7) Expenses abuse (worse than Westminster's)
8) Courting of Erdogan to take Syrian refugees in Turkey despite HR abuses.
9) Letting Victor Oban do what he fcking likes in Hungary
10) 10,000 dead Mediterranean migrants.
11) The advancement of Neoliberalism.
Still all better than being stuck on these islands with a unchained Tory party though. [Post edited 10 Jul 2018 21:29]
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