| Our country is fckd match thread 20:04 - Jan 15 with 229319 views | BlackCrowe |
On one side we have a spineless and rudderless government full of self-serving narcissistic cnts utterly divided.
On the other side we have spineless and rudderless opposition full of self-serving narcissistic cnts utterly divided.
Can someone please show us a third way beyond flipping Vince. Failing a Chuka et al third way then Disco, you're the man no to save us from jezwecan, Diane, Sneery Emily and McDonnell no? [Post edited 15 Jan 2019 20:05]
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| Our country is fckd match thread on 15:23 - Mar 5 with 2254 views | colinallcars |
The recently announced immigration figures seem to have passed without comment. Some people voted leave because of immigration worries. Nothing racist, but concerns overthe availability of jobs, Housing and getting seen by a doctor or hospital. The latest figures show EU immigration dropping sharply with non EU immigration going through the roof. So much for betrayal. The only fair thing is a fresh referendum with an independent body to oversee the running of it. |  | | |
| Our country is fckd match thread on 15:44 - Mar 5 with 2224 views | Bluce_Ree |
I don't think a new referendum would do anything because even some remain voters (like myself) would see it as a betrayal of democracy.
If they did re-run it, it'd be pointless.
Look, I've tried to understand the ins and outs of this but it is impossible. it's because when you get two 'experts' debating it, they just shout over each other. Times that by 100 for any parliamentary debate.
I still don't know if Brexit is good or bad. I don't think anyone does.
I do think that no-one knew what they were voting for either way.
I mostly voted remain because I knew that the project of leaving would be a massive clusterf**k. |  |
| Stefan Moore, Stefan Moore running down the wing. Stefan Moore, Stefan Moore running down the wing. He runs like a cheetah, his crosses couldn't be sweeter. Stefan Moore. Stefan Moore. Stefan Moore. |
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| Our country is fckd match thread on 16:54 - Mar 5 with 2173 views | QPR_Jim |
| Our country is fckd match thread on 15:23 - Mar 5 by colinallcars |
The recently announced immigration figures seem to have passed without comment. Some people voted leave because of immigration worries. Nothing racist, but concerns overthe availability of jobs, Housing and getting seen by a doctor or hospital. The latest figures show EU immigration dropping sharply with non EU immigration going through the roof. So much for betrayal. The only fair thing is a fresh referendum with an independent body to oversee the running of it. |
The recently announced immigration statistics reminded me of a conversation with a barber I had before the referendum. Needless to say it wasn't a topic of conversation that I wanted to discuss while he stood over me with a pair of scissors but he brought it up so I tentatively let him know I was probably going to vote remain. He returned by letting me know he was voting leave to stop immigrants coming over from Nigeria and getting given free housing and benefits. I felt compelled to let him know that leaving the EU would have no affect on immigration from Nigeria to which he replied "well I think it will". Not wishing to make the haircut any more awkward and/or risk upsetting the man stood over me with scissors I decided to leave it there. But seeing the statistics I did wonder what he would have made of the drop in EU immigration being made up for by non EU immigration. |  | | |
| Our country is fckd match thread on 17:35 - Mar 5 with 2136 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
| Our country is fckd match thread on 16:54 - Mar 5 by QPR_Jim |
The recently announced immigration statistics reminded me of a conversation with a barber I had before the referendum. Needless to say it wasn't a topic of conversation that I wanted to discuss while he stood over me with a pair of scissors but he brought it up so I tentatively let him know I was probably going to vote remain. He returned by letting me know he was voting leave to stop immigrants coming over from Nigeria and getting given free housing and benefits. I felt compelled to let him know that leaving the EU would have no affect on immigration from Nigeria to which he replied "well I think it will". Not wishing to make the haircut any more awkward and/or risk upsetting the man stood over me with scissors I decided to leave it there. But seeing the statistics I did wonder what he would have made of the drop in EU immigration being made up for by non EU immigration. |
I read about that, it did say that is was mostly students on a short term visa but I don't know if that is true or not. |  |
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| Our country is fckd match thread on 17:37 - Mar 5 with 2127 views | QPR_John |
I have come to the conclusion that QPR have more chance of being champions this season than we have of leaving the EU. Any argument is now purely academic. The extension will be at least a couple of years because of the European elections at the end of May. |  | | |
| Our country is fckd match thread on 17:53 - Mar 5 with 2108 views | R_from_afar |
| Our country is fckd match thread on 15:44 - Mar 5 by Bluce_Ree |
I don't think a new referendum would do anything because even some remain voters (like myself) would see it as a betrayal of democracy.
If they did re-run it, it'd be pointless.
Look, I've tried to understand the ins and outs of this but it is impossible. it's because when you get two 'experts' debating it, they just shout over each other. Times that by 100 for any parliamentary debate.
I still don't know if Brexit is good or bad. I don't think anyone does.
I do think that no-one knew what they were voting for either way.
I mostly voted remain because I knew that the project of leaving would be a massive clusterf**k. |
"I still don't know if Brexit is good or bad. I don't think anyone does".
I don't think it is possible to be *sure* - no one can predict the future with 100% accuracy, apart, perhaps, from that World Cup octopus - but I truly cannot remember seeing any quantitative analysis which suggests it will benefit the economy. Perhaps I missed it. That said, Brexit is not just about the economy anyway, is it?
RFA |  |
| "Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1." |
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| Our country is fckd match thread on 18:44 - Mar 5 with 2073 views | colinallcars |
| Our country is fckd match thread on 17:37 - Mar 5 by QPR_John |
I have come to the conclusion that QPR have more chance of being champions this season than we have of leaving the EU. Any argument is now purely academic. The extension will be at least a couple of years because of the European elections at the end of May. |
I hope if there is an extension it lasts many years . People may come to their senses during this time. Whether we are better off out than in has been debated at length on this board, but what is certain is that leaving is just too complex and costly. Only just over three weeks to go now. | | | |
| Our country is fckd match thread on 06:25 - Mar 6 with 1961 views | Watford_Ranger |
| Our country is fckd match thread on 17:53 - Mar 5 by R_from_afar |
"I still don't know if Brexit is good or bad. I don't think anyone does".
I don't think it is possible to be *sure* - no one can predict the future with 100% accuracy, apart, perhaps, from that World Cup octopus - but I truly cannot remember seeing any quantitative analysis which suggests it will benefit the economy. Perhaps I missed it. That said, Brexit is not just about the economy anyway, is it?
RFA |
It’s not just the economy but some of the people who will lose out can’t afford to lose out even slightly. | | | |
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| Our country is fckd match thread on 09:37 - Mar 6 with 1896 views | CFW |
| Our country is fckd match thread on 15:23 - Mar 5 by colinallcars |
The recently announced immigration figures seem to have passed without comment. Some people voted leave because of immigration worries. Nothing racist, but concerns overthe availability of jobs, Housing and getting seen by a doctor or hospital. The latest figures show EU immigration dropping sharply with non EU immigration going through the roof. So much for betrayal. The only fair thing is a fresh referendum with an independent body to oversee the running of it. |
So let me get this right. We live in a democratic country and we hold two elections - one a general election in which the result gives us an elected government to run our country - much like a board of directors run a company.
We then also have a referendum to give the people of our country a simple choice - do they wish to stay in the EU or leave to EU. The result albeit close was to leave the EU.
Then during the process it becomes clear that the people we elected to deliver our exit from the EU decide they know better than us and try anything and everything to stop the process. The EU is an organisation that once joined can never be left and they will do anything to ensure a country like ours never leaves.
This for me was, and still is, nothing whatsoever to do with immigration it is about getting all the things that our grandparents and parents fought and in many cases gave their lives for to ensure our country was free to make its own decisions. Not have them made for us by people in other countries.
So we have another vote and the result remains the same - it does not solve anything. All the problems of leaving the EU are still there all that has happened is we are stuck in the EU, still paying our money and the whole process starts all over again. | | | |
| Our country is fckd match thread on 10:33 - Mar 6 with 1876 views | LythamR |
| Our country is fckd match thread on 17:35 - Mar 5 by 2Thomas2Bowles |
I read about that, it did say that is was mostly students on a short term visa but I don't know if that is true or not. |
I think that must be fake news, EU students do not need a visa to study or work in the UK thats what free movement is all about |  | | |
| Our country is fckd match thread on 10:38 - Mar 6 with 1872 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
| Our country is fckd match thread on 10:33 - Mar 6 by LythamR |
I think that must be fake news, EU students do not need a visa to study or work in the UK thats what free movement is all about |
Referring to those from outside the EU. | |
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| Our country is fckd match thread on 10:46 - Mar 6 with 1864 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
| Our country is fckd match thread on 09:37 - Mar 6 by CFW |
So let me get this right. We live in a democratic country and we hold two elections - one a general election in which the result gives us an elected government to run our country - much like a board of directors run a company.
We then also have a referendum to give the people of our country a simple choice - do they wish to stay in the EU or leave to EU. The result albeit close was to leave the EU.
Then during the process it becomes clear that the people we elected to deliver our exit from the EU decide they know better than us and try anything and everything to stop the process. The EU is an organisation that once joined can never be left and they will do anything to ensure a country like ours never leaves.
This for me was, and still is, nothing whatsoever to do with immigration it is about getting all the things that our grandparents and parents fought and in many cases gave their lives for to ensure our country was free to make its own decisions. Not have them made for us by people in other countries.
So we have another vote and the result remains the same - it does not solve anything. All the problems of leaving the EU are still there all that has happened is we are stuck in the EU, still paying our money and the whole process starts all over again. |
Yet it's just remainers hoping we don't leave
Every report I have seen, if there was another vote with the same question leave or remain, it would still come out leave. Even if it did swing, it would be very close again, then where are we ? and 3rd
But it' s going to be a fix with no just leave option, just May's deal or remain.
Then democracy is truly dead.
But remainers are not interested in democracy [Post edited 6 Mar 2019 10:55]
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| Our country is fckd match thread on 11:20 - Mar 6 with 1827 views | CroydonCaptJack |
| Our country is fckd match thread on 18:44 - Mar 5 by colinallcars |
I hope if there is an extension it lasts many years . People may come to their senses during this time. Whether we are better off out than in has been debated at length on this board, but what is certain is that leaving is just too complex and costly. Only just over three weeks to go now. |
'Come to their senses' presumably means agreeing with your view I am guessing? |  | | |
| Our country is fckd match thread on 12:58 - Mar 6 with 1775 views | QPR_John |
| Our country is fckd match thread on 18:44 - Mar 5 by colinallcars |
I hope if there is an extension it lasts many years . People may come to their senses during this time. Whether we are better off out than in has been debated at length on this board, but what is certain is that leaving is just too complex and costly. Only just over three weeks to go now. |
Just out of interest is there any scenario any demand from Brussels which would make you want to leave. would you be happy to adopt the Euro, would you be happy to enter the Schengen Area, would you be happy to give up our security council seat for an EU place finally would you be happy with a United States of Europe. | | | |
| Our country is fckd match thread on 13:27 - Mar 6 with 1745 views | R_from_afar |
| Our country is fckd match thread on 10:46 - Mar 6 by 2Thomas2Bowles |
Yet it's just remainers hoping we don't leave
Every report I have seen, if there was another vote with the same question leave or remain, it would still come out leave. Even if it did swing, it would be very close again, then where are we ? and 3rd
But it' s going to be a fix with no just leave option, just May's deal or remain.
Then democracy is truly dead.
But remainers are not interested in democracy [Post edited 6 Mar 2019 10:55]
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How is democracy truly dead? The EU is not a pub you can just flounce out of with no consequences if they take too long to serve you or you don't like what's playing on the jukebox.
The referendum was a simple in/out thing. The terms we would come out on were not defined. The government has a duty to enforce the result of the referendum but also to ensure that we come out in such a way that the country is not wrecked. Our MPs represent us but also have a duty of care towards us, our environment and our economy.
If we come out without a deal, then they will have failed in that duty because there will be chaos for months on end.
RFA | |
| "Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1." |
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| Our country is fckd match thread on 13:46 - Mar 6 with 1714 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
| Our country is fckd match thread on 13:27 - Mar 6 by R_from_afar |
How is democracy truly dead? The EU is not a pub you can just flounce out of with no consequences if they take too long to serve you or you don't like what's playing on the jukebox.
The referendum was a simple in/out thing. The terms we would come out on were not defined. The government has a duty to enforce the result of the referendum but also to ensure that we come out in such a way that the country is not wrecked. Our MPs represent us but also have a duty of care towards us, our environment and our economy.
If we come out without a deal, then they will have failed in that duty because there will be chaos for months on end.
RFA |
Hang on these same Mp's voted almost 100% for the referendum, the wording of that referendum was agreed by these same Mp's. no one was conned.
All this yes but no but, is bolx to frustrated, stop it.
From the very start, Remainers have and still are (by this thread) being disingenuous to leave votes, ever name in the book has been thrown at them and every time it makes me and other leave votes just more sure that remainers care for no one but themselves " I'm alright Jack" and we still want to leave no matter what has been said fearmongering.
The Mp's are fecking useless, not one can be trusted but that's got nothing to do with the fact the majority of uk votes voted to leave and still hold that opinion. [Post edited 6 Mar 2019 13:51]
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| Our country is fckd match thread on 13:50 - Mar 6 with 1702 views | QPR_Jim |
| Our country is fckd match thread on 09:37 - Mar 6 by CFW |
So let me get this right. We live in a democratic country and we hold two elections - one a general election in which the result gives us an elected government to run our country - much like a board of directors run a company.
We then also have a referendum to give the people of our country a simple choice - do they wish to stay in the EU or leave to EU. The result albeit close was to leave the EU.
Then during the process it becomes clear that the people we elected to deliver our exit from the EU decide they know better than us and try anything and everything to stop the process. The EU is an organisation that once joined can never be left and they will do anything to ensure a country like ours never leaves.
This for me was, and still is, nothing whatsoever to do with immigration it is about getting all the things that our grandparents and parents fought and in many cases gave their lives for to ensure our country was free to make its own decisions. Not have them made for us by people in other countries.
So we have another vote and the result remains the same - it does not solve anything. All the problems of leaving the EU are still there all that has happened is we are stuck in the EU, still paying our money and the whole process starts all over again. |
"The EU is an organisation that once joined can never be left and they will do anything to ensure a country like ours never leaves." People also seem to claim that the EU is bullying us by not giving us a better deal. But if we were to be remaining in the EU and France were leaving would we be happy for them to be offered to keep the benefits of membership without the cost. No? So why should we expect these other countries to give us a deal that was never practical for the EU to agree to.
For you it was nothing to do with immigration but people voted leave for a number of reasons and we don't know everyone's reason. It seems fair to assume a decent number of people voted for leave in order to reduce immigration and because of the promise of more money for the treasury to spend in the UK as this appeared to be the main thrust of the leave argument. If neither of those things can result from, or were never going to result from leaving the EU then how could a democratic country proceed without a further vote on the reality of the situation?
You may disagree with the above statement about why people voted, you can even claim no leave voter voted based on immigration or the economy however unless we have another vote based on what we know now to be the truth, then we'll never know. | | | |
| Our country is fckd match thread on 13:54 - Mar 6 with 1691 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
| Our country is fckd match thread on 13:50 - Mar 6 by QPR_Jim |
"The EU is an organisation that once joined can never be left and they will do anything to ensure a country like ours never leaves." People also seem to claim that the EU is bullying us by not giving us a better deal. But if we were to be remaining in the EU and France were leaving would we be happy for them to be offered to keep the benefits of membership without the cost. No? So why should we expect these other countries to give us a deal that was never practical for the EU to agree to.
For you it was nothing to do with immigration but people voted leave for a number of reasons and we don't know everyone's reason. It seems fair to assume a decent number of people voted for leave in order to reduce immigration and because of the promise of more money for the treasury to spend in the UK as this appeared to be the main thrust of the leave argument. If neither of those things can result from, or were never going to result from leaving the EU then how could a democratic country proceed without a further vote on the reality of the situation?
You may disagree with the above statement about why people voted, you can even claim no leave voter voted based on immigration or the economy however unless we have another vote based on what we know now to be the truth, then we'll never know. |
But if remain lost again they would still not accept it. | |
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| Our country is fckd match thread on 14:09 - Mar 6 with 1655 views | QPR_Jim |
| Our country is fckd match thread on 13:54 - Mar 6 by 2Thomas2Bowles |
But if remain lost again they would still not accept it. |
That's your opinion and I probably can't change that but for what it's worth I disagree because it's completely reasonable to want to ask the public again so long as you believe that the information originally provided was false and what we're going to get is significantly different to what was promised. You may disagree but the people requesting another referendum obviously see it that way and while they do how can you expect them to let it go?
If another referendum was to result in a leave vote after being presented with more facts and a clearer picture of what leave means given the result of the negotiations then they would have to accept it as there would be no reasonable grounds to disagree. They may not like it but they'd have no grounds to contest or appeal any further. | | | |
| Our country is fckd match thread on 14:18 - Mar 6 with 1643 views | derbyhoop |
| Our country is fckd match thread on 13:54 - Mar 6 by 2Thomas2Bowles |
But if remain lost again they would still not accept it. |
From a personal point of view, I think you're wrong on that last point.
It is clear that Leave voters are not going to get what they thought they were voting for in 2016. And the simple reason is that nothing that was promised then was ever going to be deliverable.
Remainers have been pointing out those fundamental flaws for the last 2 years and there are very few, IMHO, who have change their point of view.
A second referendum remains a possibility as Parliament cannot get a majority for any of the 3 options - a) May's deal b) No deal c) No Brexit.
No Deal remains the default and would, possibly, command popular support in a 3 way vote. My view is that is because voters understand less about the massive impact of no deal than they did in the run up to the referendum. MPs will probably rule it out next week as they recognise what a disaster it would be.
So any 2nd vote would come down to May's deal (with minor tweaks, if agreed) or Remain.
As an ardent Remainer if it came down to that and people voted to Leave with a deal that would be the end of the arguments. And UK would have to live with the consequences.
In case anybody is interested, my position stems from being the eldest son of economic migrants; worked in 3 of the EU27 countries; now living in France where I am still working and inter-acting with both French and English clients. For me, co-operation between previously warring countries, who share similar values, is a far better way forward, in the modern world, than isolation. |  |
| "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one's lifetime." (Mark Twain)
Find me on twitter @derbyhoop and now on Bluesky |
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| Our country is fckd match thread on 14:56 - Mar 6 with 1603 views | CFW |
| Our country is fckd match thread on 14:18 - Mar 6 by derbyhoop |
From a personal point of view, I think you're wrong on that last point.
It is clear that Leave voters are not going to get what they thought they were voting for in 2016. And the simple reason is that nothing that was promised then was ever going to be deliverable.
Remainers have been pointing out those fundamental flaws for the last 2 years and there are very few, IMHO, who have change their point of view.
A second referendum remains a possibility as Parliament cannot get a majority for any of the 3 options - a) May's deal b) No deal c) No Brexit.
No Deal remains the default and would, possibly, command popular support in a 3 way vote. My view is that is because voters understand less about the massive impact of no deal than they did in the run up to the referendum. MPs will probably rule it out next week as they recognise what a disaster it would be.
So any 2nd vote would come down to May's deal (with minor tweaks, if agreed) or Remain.
As an ardent Remainer if it came down to that and people voted to Leave with a deal that would be the end of the arguments. And UK would have to live with the consequences.
In case anybody is interested, my position stems from being the eldest son of economic migrants; worked in 3 of the EU27 countries; now living in France where I am still working and inter-acting with both French and English clients. For me, co-operation between previously warring countries, who share similar values, is a far better way forward, in the modern world, than isolation. |
You might be right the leave voters might not get all what they want - to say that is undeliverable is based on no facts whatsoever. The facts are no one knows what a no deal brexit will bring because no one knows. All this bollox about no food in shops, no jobs, house prices falling, into recession, share prices falling off the cliff is pure supposition.
I totally get and understand people have different views based on personal experiences and they have to be respected but I am getting totally pi**ed off with the remainers of this world telling everyone how clever they are and how they know what is best for our country.
In truth they are no more wiser than the people who think leaving the EU is the better option. MP's who are elected by their constituents to carry out their wishes - best they get and do it. | | | |
| Our country is fckd match thread on 15:05 - Mar 6 with 1587 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
| Our country is fckd match thread on 14:56 - Mar 6 by CFW |
You might be right the leave voters might not get all what they want - to say that is undeliverable is based on no facts whatsoever. The facts are no one knows what a no deal brexit will bring because no one knows. All this bollox about no food in shops, no jobs, house prices falling, into recession, share prices falling off the cliff is pure supposition.
I totally get and understand people have different views based on personal experiences and they have to be respected but I am getting totally pi**ed off with the remainers of this world telling everyone how clever they are and how they know what is best for our country.
In truth they are no more wiser than the people who think leaving the EU is the better option. MP's who are elected by their constituents to carry out their wishes - best they get and do it. |
Can't remember offhand her name but I saw the other day one Female Mp who constituents voted to leave by a large majority, is refusing to do as they say and doing all she can to support remain. | |
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| Our country is fckd match thread on 15:33 - Mar 6 with 1555 views | Watford_Ranger |
| Our country is fckd match thread on 15:05 - Mar 6 by 2Thomas2Bowles |
Can't remember offhand her name but I saw the other day one Female Mp who constituents voted to leave by a large majority, is refusing to do as they say and doing all she can to support remain. |
Because MPs are there to act in their constituents’ best interests, to the best of their knowledge, rather than blindly going with what 50.1%+ wanted three years ago. | | | |
| Our country is fckd match thread on 15:33 - Mar 6 with 1553 views | colinallcars |
The whole context of referenda is flawed. For example, who decides which things go to a referendum? What about if the issue is so complex Joe Public doesn't understand it ? What if there were a referendum on bringing back hanging and people voted to bringit back ?
We elect people to make informed decisions on our behalf.
Forget the referendum and stay on the EU. [Post edited 6 Mar 2019 15:35]
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| Our country is fckd match thread on 15:50 - Mar 6 with 1531 views | derbyhoop |
| Our country is fckd match thread on 14:56 - Mar 6 by CFW |
You might be right the leave voters might not get all what they want - to say that is undeliverable is based on no facts whatsoever. The facts are no one knows what a no deal brexit will bring because no one knows. All this bollox about no food in shops, no jobs, house prices falling, into recession, share prices falling off the cliff is pure supposition.
I totally get and understand people have different views based on personal experiences and they have to be respected but I am getting totally pi**ed off with the remainers of this world telling everyone how clever they are and how they know what is best for our country.
In truth they are no more wiser than the people who think leaving the EU is the better option. MP's who are elected by their constituents to carry out their wishes - best they get and do it. |
" ... based on no facts whatsoever..."?
You can only go on the assessments of the experts in their field, including UK Government's own assessments.
In the latter case, they predict that, with no deal, GDP will fall short by 9.8% compared with the current situation.
Traffic through the short Channel crossings will fall by about 75% according to the Dept of Transport
JIT manufacturing is based on keeping 4 hours stock of components. Any delay at customs will impact on the production lines. a 2 minute hold up for 1 consignment would quickly escalate into 15 mile queues to the Channel crossings
30% of UK food is imported from the UK, including 80% of tomatoes. Any holdup at the ports could lead to shortages of some foods - say ALL the major food retailers.
Insulin, which has a short life, is manufactured by a Danish company. Grayling's awarding of a contract to a ferry company with no ferries was designed to overcome potential shortages of food and medicine. So far that has cost UK taxpayers £33m.
Jobs are going at Honda and JLR and, according to reports, 400 at Nissan. BMW and Toyota were warning yesterday about potential factory closures.
Plenty of financial institutions have transferred jobs (so far, small numbers) to EU27 countries.
House prices are already falling in London.
Recession remains possible - although the BOE may well take measures, like on 24 June 2016, to reduce that likelihood.
Share prices - FTSE 100 companies benefit when the £ falls as they earn in $. The £ is down about 15% since the referendum.
Is that enough facts? And, no, I cannot predict the future either. But, I do see that any Brexit scenario is likely to have a detrimental effect on the UK. Short term it is likely to be significant. Long term, UK may learn to adapt to a new world order. | |
| "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one's lifetime." (Mark Twain)
Find me on twitter @derbyhoop and now on Bluesky |
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