| What are the finances like at RAFC? 12:39 - Oct 27 with 21492 views | A_Newby |
Using what limited information is publicly available, you can get an appreciation of the black hole in the finances of the Dale.
Since last season we have lost around £650,000 premier league solidarity money and the income from the EFL trophy and EFL cup. Last season the club was losing money even with this funding.
For this season we have kept the full premier league RINGFENCED funding for the academy (£600,000?) and a full EFL league 2 payment (£550,000?). Next season if we do not get promoted these will drop by 50% so the club would lose at least another £500,000 of funding.
I think the chairman in the fans’ forum made a point something like if we didn’t have to pay players’ wages then we might be able to break even.
In other words, if around 2,500 paying fans turned up around 30 times per year and spent money in the bars and on refreshments and sat in the stadium for 2-3 hours watching a well-maintained empty football pitch or maybe an amateur team playing then the club could possibly break even.
The reason why is simple, the costs now of maintaining the ground and hosting football at the stadium for 2,500 fans is greater than the match day income generated from these fans.
For example, just looking at the energy costs as outlined at the last fans’ forum. If the same amount of energy is used this year as last, the bill under the new price deal will rise from around £60,000 to over £200,000.
£200,000 per year with an average attendance of 2,500 gives an energy price of £80 per fan per season. So, if a season card holder pays £100 for their ticket, £20 would go in VAT and the remainder towards the energy bill. Before there are any funds from matchday income to pay towards a a football squad there are also other costs to pay such as business rates, the ground and pitch maintenance and match day security.
There are really only three ways to increase the matchday income, raise entrance prices, get fans to spend more in the ground and increase the number of supporters.
I am hoping that the club can at least renegotiate its energy prices.
I still think that season card prices are too low and have been ever since the Russ Green “experiment”. Next season whatever the outcome I would raise them by £30 across the board for all over 16-year-olds.
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 12:53 - Oct 27 with 11236 views | D_Alien |
Good analysis
Wouldn't it be really useful if shareholders had the actual facts and figures, including the current position. The Trust rep on the board will have this information but will be unable to do a thing about it, including (and correct me if i'm wrong) share the basics with his colleagues on the Trust board in order for it to be able to make informed decisions on behalf of its members
If the (rescheduled) Trust meeting with the board doesn't produce the desired outcome in terms of greater transparency, the Trust rep should be temporarily withdrawn in order to regain a fully-independent voice [Post edited 27 Oct 2023 13:12]
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 13:14 - Oct 27 with 11159 views | 442Dale |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 12:53 - Oct 27 by D_Alien |
Good analysis
Wouldn't it be really useful if shareholders had the actual facts and figures, including the current position. The Trust rep on the board will have this information but will be unable to do a thing about it, including (and correct me if i'm wrong) share the basics with his colleagues on the Trust board in order for it to be able to make informed decisions on behalf of its members
If the (rescheduled) Trust meeting with the board doesn't produce the desired outcome in terms of greater transparency, the Trust rep should be temporarily withdrawn in order to regain a fully-independent voice [Post edited 27 Oct 2023 13:12]
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It couldn’t have been made any clearer at the fans meeting on Saturday that supporters (including the Trust members present who are, as part of the Trust) want to know what that current position is.
The Trust rep on the club board was present and will be fully aware, as will the rest of the Trust board, of how important yesterday’s months-long scheduled meeting with the club was when it comes to starting to provide that clarity.
The postponement of the meeting by a week, with no further explanation as yet, does not reflect well as, yet again, more time passes. However, none of this should distract when it comes to the Trust and its rep on the board being able to provide as much information as possible once it takes place. If not, a reassessment has to be made.
Uncertainty will be our downfall. |  |
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 13:55 - Oct 27 with 11086 views | RAFCBLUE |
I don't think the information is that limited.
Last November, ahead of the shareholders AGM, the customary Chairman's letter set out the profit and losses with and without one off events over the five previous five seasons (17/18 to 21/22).
It showed a detailed split of the club's revenue and that in that time window over £2m a season came from the EFL status in terms of TV money, EFL Academy money, grant and prize money etc but that broadly was matched by match attendance and commercial income. The last irregular part of revenue were transfer fees.
So just on matchday and commercial income alone without the EFL we generate c £2m a season of revenue - £40k a week.
The full audited results including one offs are published at Companies House so we know were:
2017/18 - Loss of £0.3m
2018/19 - Loss of £1.2m
2019/20 - Profit of £1.3m
2020/21 - Loss of £1.2m
2021/22 - Loss of £0.4m
FIVE YEAR TOTAL - Loss of £1.8m
What the analysis then showed is what happens if you take out the one off transfer fees and cup runs in those seasons which are outside the control of everyone and the numbers become.
2017/18 - Loss of £1.6m
2018/19 - Loss of £2.2m
2019/20 - Loss of £1.3m
2020/21 - Loss of £1.3m
2021/22 - Loss of £1.5m
FIVE YEAR TOTAL - Loss of £7.9m
You can make the above Chairman (4 in that period), Board, CEO/COO (4 in that period) Manager (3 in that period) neutral. It can't be about individuals when the data shows the same pattern.
None of the people in charge on or off the field turned a profit without one offs over which they had no control.
Andrew Kelly had remarked in June 2020 about how he thought desperate the financial situation and that was a year before the Morton House saga which followed a global pandemic when he wrote those comments.
We bridged £6.1m of loss by cup runs including games against Tottenham, Manchester United and Newcastle and the sale of players or previously sold add ons like Craig Dawson.
The obvious issue of a weekly/monthly/annual operating deficit doesn't get any better in the light of rising cost inflation and rising wage inflation combined with sticking with the same pricing structure.
"As long as we sell a player or have a cup run we each season are ok" used to be the mantra.
The truth is the club, like most others has chosen to run a significant annual operating and cash loss in hope of a one off cash profit arising, not because it wants to but because others do.
The profitability of other League 1 and League 2 clubs over that same time period show similar patterns some gambled more than others and ran bigger losses.
Your point is right that a combination of charging more and having better attendances is what really would make a positive difference but that has been true since the 1980's.
Our woes crystalised with a conflict on direction of desired ownership model vs desired contribution model prior to the sale and then an unannounced sale. Some wanted an owner to fund losses, others didn't. Those who are ok with an owner want to know its the "right" owner which is understandable.
We will lose money year in and year out and continue to. It's the same across the whole pyramid. |  |
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 14:13 - Oct 27 with 11035 views | RAFCBLUE |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 12:53 - Oct 27 by D_Alien |
Good analysis
Wouldn't it be really useful if shareholders had the actual facts and figures, including the current position. The Trust rep on the board will have this information but will be unable to do a thing about it, including (and correct me if i'm wrong) share the basics with his colleagues on the Trust board in order for it to be able to make informed decisions on behalf of its members
If the (rescheduled) Trust meeting with the board doesn't produce the desired outcome in terms of greater transparency, the Trust rep should be temporarily withdrawn in order to regain a fully-independent voice [Post edited 27 Oct 2023 13:12]
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DA, we all know that shareholders can call an EGM whenever they like, as has been proven in 2021, 2022 and 2023.
They do need to have a suitable motion and enough initial support to call that EGM. The Companies Act actually encourages it if it is desired by shareholders and there is the embarrassment risk of a shareholder proposing something that other shareholders then vote down democratically.
I do recall though the financial situation was made very clear when the last EGM in August 2023 and the last fans forum was held on Youtube and to to summarise the last 40 years of watching Dale:
1) There is no money ever which has been true since the 1970's.
2) The club makes an annual loss.
3) The club needs to fund that annual loss by either someone stumping up the money to keep going or have a windfall via the FA Cup or a player transfer.
4) We are out of the FA Cup so that isn't going to solve it.
5) Clubs are not spending wild transfer fees on lower league talent, notwithstanding our squad size. The chances of a Craig Dawson sized transfer fee for a current player in January 2024 are therefore slim.
6) Meanwhile two directors have given a secured loan facility, approved by 75%+ of shareholders, which can be used if necessary.
7) The club has shares available for sale who want to invest but has yet to place them with a suitable party.
I'm not sure what the Trust is going to report back to members which hasn't already been said.
There will also be a shareholder AGM in 2023 at some point where any shareholder of the club can attend and ask any question they like. Shareholders of more than 100 shares can propose themselves as directors - but would need 50% of shareholder backing.
The club's Board can have 15 on it. Plenty of space for anyone to put their name forward, subject to shareholders approving them. [Post edited 27 Oct 2023 14:13]
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 15:02 - Oct 27 with 10878 views | D_Alien |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 14:13 - Oct 27 by RAFCBLUE |
DA, we all know that shareholders can call an EGM whenever they like, as has been proven in 2021, 2022 and 2023.
They do need to have a suitable motion and enough initial support to call that EGM. The Companies Act actually encourages it if it is desired by shareholders and there is the embarrassment risk of a shareholder proposing something that other shareholders then vote down democratically.
I do recall though the financial situation was made very clear when the last EGM in August 2023 and the last fans forum was held on Youtube and to to summarise the last 40 years of watching Dale:
1) There is no money ever which has been true since the 1970's.
2) The club makes an annual loss.
3) The club needs to fund that annual loss by either someone stumping up the money to keep going or have a windfall via the FA Cup or a player transfer.
4) We are out of the FA Cup so that isn't going to solve it.
5) Clubs are not spending wild transfer fees on lower league talent, notwithstanding our squad size. The chances of a Craig Dawson sized transfer fee for a current player in January 2024 are therefore slim.
6) Meanwhile two directors have given a secured loan facility, approved by 75%+ of shareholders, which can be used if necessary.
7) The club has shares available for sale who want to invest but has yet to place them with a suitable party.
I'm not sure what the Trust is going to report back to members which hasn't already been said.
There will also be a shareholder AGM in 2023 at some point where any shareholder of the club can attend and ask any question they like. Shareholders of more than 100 shares can propose themselves as directors - but would need 50% of shareholder backing.
The club's Board can have 15 on it. Plenty of space for anyone to put their name forward, subject to shareholders approving them. [Post edited 27 Oct 2023 14:13]
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RAFCBLUE, whilst you're capable of stating the bare outlines of our position, the Trust have had a meeting postponed with the Board where the Trust are seeking much greater clarity and regularly-updated financial information
Perhaps you might wish to write to the Trust, enquiring why the Trust board think they might need this information?
Let us know if you get a response | |
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 15:25 - Oct 27 with 10810 views | 442Dale |
Not sure how anyone can say anything was “made very clear” when, unless those present missed something, there was an agreement in the room and amongst the Trust officials who were there that there is a real need for clarity.
The questions that members provided to the Trust at the meeting also reflected that. | |
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 15:30 - Oct 27 with 10812 views | RAFCBLUE |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 15:02 - Oct 27 by D_Alien |
RAFCBLUE, whilst you're capable of stating the bare outlines of our position, the Trust have had a meeting postponed with the Board where the Trust are seeking much greater clarity and regularly-updated financial information
Perhaps you might wish to write to the Trust, enquiring why the Trust board think they might need this information?
Let us know if you get a response |
I shall DA and thank you but equally the Trust can and does (and I assume will) set out its position to members in due course.
I'm still not sure how any Board can be asked to disclose to one shareholder (the Trust) when it has the legal responsibility to all shareholders equally and without committing unfair prejudice to other shareholders.
If there is a statutory update to be made then I'd assume all shareholders get to have that at the same time.
I'm also still not sure how the financial outlook now can be any different to what we (shareholders) were told at either the fans forum on 3rd August or EGM later in August 2023 other than the certainty that there will be no FA Cup 3rd round tie for the fourth consecutive season to provide a boost to the much needed coffers and how the Trust withdrawing its nominee will help anything really. | |
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 15:38 - Oct 27 with 10781 views | 442Dale |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 15:30 - Oct 27 by RAFCBLUE |
I shall DA and thank you but equally the Trust can and does (and I assume will) set out its position to members in due course.
I'm still not sure how any Board can be asked to disclose to one shareholder (the Trust) when it has the legal responsibility to all shareholders equally and without committing unfair prejudice to other shareholders.
If there is a statutory update to be made then I'd assume all shareholders get to have that at the same time.
I'm also still not sure how the financial outlook now can be any different to what we (shareholders) were told at either the fans forum on 3rd August or EGM later in August 2023 other than the certainty that there will be no FA Cup 3rd round tie for the fourth consecutive season to provide a boost to the much needed coffers and how the Trust withdrawing its nominee will help anything really. |
If the Trust report any information given to them is it any different than the information provided at the Fans Forum when fans asked questions?
Or are there certain types of questions and information that fall under shareholders getting to have it at the same time?
Or were shareholders expected to log onto YouTube just in case? | |
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 15:43 - Oct 27 with 10780 views | TVOS1907 |
What’s that they say about the first sign of madness? |  |
| When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf? |
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 15:51 - Oct 27 with 10765 views | RAFCBLUE |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 15:25 - Oct 27 by 442Dale |
Not sure how anyone can say anything was “made very clear” when, unless those present missed something, there was an agreement in the room and amongst the Trust officials who were there that there is a real need for clarity.
The questions that members provided to the Trust at the meeting also reflected that. |
I and others might have missed this 442 but is there an actual proposal of a solution for Trust members to vote on? Or at least a report of what is sought to be achieved?
The last all members heard was in the Trust newsletter on 2nd October 2023 which said:
"Discussions with prospective investors continue but, as reported in previous Newsletters, continue to frustrate with regard to a positive outcome. As mentioned previously, the major problem is the time scale of any prospective investor differing from that we require, but efforts to achieve a positive result continues."
That's made very clear by those in discussions from the Trust with the Club unless (a) something else has happened that isn't yet explicitly communicated to Trust members or (b) the need for real clarity wasn't fully explained in the last communication to members.
Regardless, its not actually going to change the economics of this club which have been the same from the 1970's onwards and in the words of a late former Chairman on being asked about the sale of Alan Reeves to Premier League Wimbledon in the 1990's and if that would be a game changer he replied "No - there's never been any bloody money!" | |
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 16:00 - Oct 27 with 10704 views | 442Dale |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 15:51 - Oct 27 by RAFCBLUE |
I and others might have missed this 442 but is there an actual proposal of a solution for Trust members to vote on? Or at least a report of what is sought to be achieved?
The last all members heard was in the Trust newsletter on 2nd October 2023 which said:
"Discussions with prospective investors continue but, as reported in previous Newsletters, continue to frustrate with regard to a positive outcome. As mentioned previously, the major problem is the time scale of any prospective investor differing from that we require, but efforts to achieve a positive result continues."
That's made very clear by those in discussions from the Trust with the Club unless (a) something else has happened that isn't yet explicitly communicated to Trust members or (b) the need for real clarity wasn't fully explained in the last communication to members.
Regardless, its not actually going to change the economics of this club which have been the same from the 1970's onwards and in the words of a late former Chairman on being asked about the sale of Alan Reeves to Premier League Wimbledon in the 1990's and if that would be a game changer he replied "No - there's never been any bloody money!" |
As DAlien suggested, writing to the Trust could be a good idea if you’ve questions for them.
I merely took the time to attend the meeting as a member and ask any questions supporters took their own time to ask me to ask. [Post edited 27 Oct 2023 16:01]
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 16:03 - Oct 27 with 10697 views | D_Alien |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 15:30 - Oct 27 by RAFCBLUE |
I shall DA and thank you but equally the Trust can and does (and I assume will) set out its position to members in due course.
I'm still not sure how any Board can be asked to disclose to one shareholder (the Trust) when it has the legal responsibility to all shareholders equally and without committing unfair prejudice to other shareholders.
If there is a statutory update to be made then I'd assume all shareholders get to have that at the same time.
I'm also still not sure how the financial outlook now can be any different to what we (shareholders) were told at either the fans forum on 3rd August or EGM later in August 2023 other than the certainty that there will be no FA Cup 3rd round tie for the fourth consecutive season to provide a boost to the much needed coffers and how the Trust withdrawing its nominee will help anything really. |
"If there is a statutory update to be made then I'd assume all shareholders get to have that at the same time"
You may assume correctly, but there's a rider... only those shareholders who the club deem worthy of being contacted, due to the sheer incompetence on display the last time all shareholders were required to be contacted
This was pointed out during the Q&A's at the Fans Forum, and there's no reason to believe the club have taken the requisite measures to ensure they hold a full and accurate register of shareholders | |
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 16:23 - Oct 27 with 10619 views | TalkingSutty |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 15:30 - Oct 27 by RAFCBLUE |
I shall DA and thank you but equally the Trust can and does (and I assume will) set out its position to members in due course.
I'm still not sure how any Board can be asked to disclose to one shareholder (the Trust) when it has the legal responsibility to all shareholders equally and without committing unfair prejudice to other shareholders.
If there is a statutory update to be made then I'd assume all shareholders get to have that at the same time.
I'm also still not sure how the financial outlook now can be any different to what we (shareholders) were told at either the fans forum on 3rd August or EGM later in August 2023 other than the certainty that there will be no FA Cup 3rd round tie for the fourth consecutive season to provide a boost to the much needed coffers and how the Trust withdrawing its nominee will help anything really. |
As a fellow supporter and somebody who obviously seems to have a better financial grasp on the running of the club than the average fan I'm interested to know what you think would be the best scenario going forward for the club. The Chairman and the Directors are looking for investors to come in, they want to recoup their outlay. The likelihood of that happening in the near future looks slim. The club is losing money hand over fist i assume, the Chairman even suggested liquidation further down the line. The running of the stadium will become a financial noose around the neck of the club,it probably is now. Is there anyway we could use the stadium etc to access funds to reset the club? What do you see as the best case scenario and if you put yourself in the Chairman's shoes, with the money he has put into the club, what would you do? What also needs to be remembered is that collectively hundreds of other people have also invested in shares. Andrew Kelly will also be watching all of this carefully, he also has a large shareholding. So it can't all be about what the preferred option is for those in the Boardroom. Maybe the very thing that was put in place to protect the club, a large number of shareholders, is the thing that is now putting off potential investors? [Post edited 27 Oct 2023 21:07]
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 16:29 - Oct 27 with 10591 views | TalkingSutty |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 16:03 - Oct 27 by D_Alien |
"If there is a statutory update to be made then I'd assume all shareholders get to have that at the same time"
You may assume correctly, but there's a rider... only those shareholders who the club deem worthy of being contacted, due to the sheer incompetence on display the last time all shareholders were required to be contacted
This was pointed out during the Q&A's at the Fans Forum, and there's no reason to believe the club have taken the requisite measures to ensure they hold a full and accurate register of shareholders |
Correct. It seems they pick and choose who they contact. | | | |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 16:31 - Oct 27 with 10583 views | judd |
Extract from MOU, in existence since 2019:
The club will:
1) Provide a suitable level of financial information to the Trust board split into appropriate categories and with a level of detail that builds trust and understanding of how the club is being run. |  |
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 17:19 - Oct 27 with 10457 views | tony_roch975 |
There have been some great posts on here recently. RAFCBlue has set out the real world of Dale’s financial plight and many have noted how that plight pervades the whole football pyramid.
But football is only a microcosm of an underlying malaise in our society. I’d guess most posters on here are, like me, no longer in the first flush of youth; yet there seems to be a feeling this has all just happened in the last few years. It hasn’t; it’s not an accident, or incompetence by any regulatory body or football club leadership. It’s deliberate; it’s planned and it’s working.
In the first 30 years of my life this country created a working Health Service, opened free Secondary State Education for all; owned and ran its own effective utilities, trains ran slower but on time and skilled manual labour was highly valued and paid - every family with one breadwinner could afford a home, an annual holiday and care for their own children.
In 1973 the UK was the most equal in terms of wealth in its history (and the most equal in the world); industrialisation had drawn wealth away from the Capital and raised the incomes of communities in the North. In that society the local football team was a source of pride and fellowship – maybe not as physically capable, technically skilled or strategically organised as today, but it was our team and run by folk who lived with us and we could afford it.
Now we have a national car park for patients, an Education system which obsesses with University entrance, exorbitant private Utilities companies who can’t even keep our rivers clean, trains that don’t even turn up late, manual labour is exploited with low paid insecure jobs and every family needs 2 breadwinners... partly to afford to pay others to look after their children.
Nothing is working; the country is f****d! And the root of this malaise – Thatcherism; the unfettered obsession with privatisation, property ownership, globalisation and just making loads a money. No care for the workers, the customers or the planet.
So no surprise football is now just a commodity, a thing to be bought and sold and heaven help the real fans. The financiers and oligarchs don’t want professional football teams in Rochdale or Workington, Torquay or Aldershot - if it can’t make them millions it needs to go the way of the mines, the steelworks …… and you can chuck in the belief in honour, integrity and competence in our leaders.
Definitely the first ‘signs of madness’, and the second and to infinity TVOS! [Post edited 27 Oct 2023 17:54]
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 17:34 - Oct 27 with 10392 views | judd |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 15:51 - Oct 27 by RAFCBLUE |
I and others might have missed this 442 but is there an actual proposal of a solution for Trust members to vote on? Or at least a report of what is sought to be achieved?
The last all members heard was in the Trust newsletter on 2nd October 2023 which said:
"Discussions with prospective investors continue but, as reported in previous Newsletters, continue to frustrate with regard to a positive outcome. As mentioned previously, the major problem is the time scale of any prospective investor differing from that we require, but efforts to achieve a positive result continues."
That's made very clear by those in discussions from the Trust with the Club unless (a) something else has happened that isn't yet explicitly communicated to Trust members or (b) the need for real clarity wasn't fully explained in the last communication to members.
Regardless, its not actually going to change the economics of this club which have been the same from the 1970's onwards and in the words of a late former Chairman on being asked about the sale of Alan Reeves to Premier League Wimbledon in the 1990's and if that would be a game changer he replied "No - there's never been any bloody money!" |
Regarding your last point, it has been recognised for a good while that relying on windfalls is not sound business practice.
Fans met with the Trust on 3 occasions earlier in the summer and a great deal of ideas were collated with regards generating revenue and growing the fanbase sufficiently and collectively to make up the annual £1m deficit.
But, it seems that we continue to do the same thing in a piecemeal fashion in the hope of attracting a philanthropist in a crowded market.
Below is a long post taken from Facebook postings on a Dale fan page by Stockport fan, John Giles. A shorter version with graphical representation is included in the collated growth document that I think the Trust submitted to the club. The below is, in my opinion, a great read. I have edited out Dale comments, but you should get the gist in what is, in my opinion, a great read, even if it appears to be co-written with Tazzy (8):
I'm a Stockport County fan and reading through your messages sounds so familiar to the situation that we were in from 2008 to 2014, when we had fallen from League One, lost our Football League status the following season, got relegated from the National League and then finished at our lowest ever position of 14th in the NLN during the 2013 -14 season.
During that period, we went through 9 different managers and not one of them could stop the rot, before Alan Lord arrived and steaded the ship, before Neil Young tried to sink us. Then Jim Gannon finally turned the Club around in his 3rd spell, but that coincided with off the field changes.
The problems at Rochdale won't be solved by hounding out the manager, the problems are off the field. But equally you need someone to underwrite losses and write cheques every month, because if you don't, it's curtains. Hounding out Simon Gauge isn't going to solve your problems either.
At County we blamed manager after manager, as well as the owners (quite rightfully). We made some horrendous losses in the National League, £700k, £500k, before getting relegated. We came so close to the plug being pulled on several occassions.
So what's the answer?
At County the Supporters Groups sat down with the owners and outlined a clear plan to turn the Club around. Fundamentally in non-league, you have to cut your cloth and stem losses. That threatens your very existance, unless you have a rich benefactor.
The Club worked on cutting costs, whilst the Supporters Groups focussed on boosting income. Holding car boot sales and crowd funding to boost the playing budget. Our crowds fell as low as 2,500, so we asked the Club allow the Supporters Co-op to buy tickets for a £1, which we then offered to junior football clubs and community groups. We did that in the thousands and it has really paid dividends.
It took a long time, but gradually the oil tanker started to turn around. The Council purchased Edgeley Park from Brian Kennedy and we started turning the corner. Breaking even, making small profits. Small steps.
There will be a point where investors will start showing an interest. They don't like basket cases, where you are hemorraging money hand over fist. It took a long time, but eventually Mark Stott showed an interest and has invested heavily, transforming County's fortunes. You will get a lot of charlatans, egotists and time wasters approaching you - football clubs attract them like a magnet. It's important to hold your nerve and be patient and wait for the right investor.
If I can give Dale any advise it would be to sit down and talk with the owners. Understand their strategy and plans. Try and work together. Ensure the Club focus on eliminating costs and break even. As supporters, try and help the Club boost every income stream possible. The biggest issue Dale have is your attendances. Trust me, that can be addressed, County had 2,500 a few years ago and we now average 9,000.
It's a long road, but you can turn the corner. All the best!
we thought the same about attendances at County. Our crowds had fallen to 2,570 in 2013 - 14. Historically Rochdale and County have had similar attendances, but County did massive work in schools in the 90's and again from 2014 onwards + targetting junior football clubs (in NLN and NL) and it makes a major difference. Not sure if this is correct, but I've heard when Dale go into schools you ask the parents to pay for their ticket @£24. You can't do that, a parent isn't going to shell out that money on the first visit, when they have no affiliation with the Club. If you get families into Spotland, they will spend money on catering, they will buy hats / scarves for their kids. It brings valuable revenue into the Club and they do return. Many youngsters may 'support' United or City but they never go, local Clubs like Rochdale and offer them live football. There is definitely an interest.
County were averaging 2,500 at our lowest point in the National League North. Our situation was as dire as it gets. Shafted by Sale Sharks and paying them rent. Shambolic management off the field, absolute chancers allowed to walk in off the street and run the Club because they put in £50k, 9 managers in the space of a few years and close to the plug being pulled on several occasions. Why would Dale not get more than 2,500? The club and supporter groups can change that very quickly. You could easily invite 500 youngsters and their parents from schools and junior football clubs every game and then you would average 3,000. They might not buy a ticket, but they will bring revenue in. Most parents will buy merchandise for the kids and suddenly they are walking round in a Dale scarf and want to come back.
The Club and our supporters Cooperative started the work when County was at their lowest ebb, back in 2014 and continued to around 2020. The Club now have enough paying fans to fill the ground, so they aren’t really interested, but the ground work was done from our lowest point.
it’s a real shame that the Club won’t talk to fans. It has been mentioned in this thread that there was a meeting with a fans group which 12 attended. Dale have handed out season tickets to primary schools. What I’m talking about does have to be on a much bigger scale though. If you offered to crowd fund money so you could buy tickets at £3 each, would the club really turn you down? That’s what we did for junior football clubs.
County have done the same with door step collections for our lottery, but we are in a different situation to Dale. I guess it's a very out dated model and you are paying agents 10% / 15%. It's envitable you will see a big decline in numbers though, because people that play the lottery may give an agent £1 or £2 on the doorstep, but most won't sign up to direct debits. I would say that it's important to do whatever you can to support your Club, even if that is just buying a match ticket. Without the fans, a Club would ceist to exist very quickly!
good to hear that Dale are looking more seriously at schools and they have issued season tickets to primary schools. It does need to be done on a big scale (in the thousands). That means using your community trust to provide presentations in schools and giving every kid and their parents free tickets. Look at crowd funding for junior football clubs. We paid County £3 initially for every ticket and distributed them to junior football clubs. It worked really well, great take up rate.” (20% higher than schools). We then renegotiated the deal to £1 a ticket and stepped up the scale. Club owners don’t always like these ideas - they think they can lose ticket sales, we encountered a lot of resistance, but it works. Empty seats have no value! If the club does this in big numbers, make sure they are geared up for catering (if families can’t get served quickly it really detracts from their experience) and make sure you’ve got stalls set up selling hats, scarves, etc. The club will sell lots of food and merchandise! | |
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 19:46 - Oct 27 with 10142 views | sxdale |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 17:19 - Oct 27 by tony_roch975 |
There have been some great posts on here recently. RAFCBlue has set out the real world of Dale’s financial plight and many have noted how that plight pervades the whole football pyramid.
But football is only a microcosm of an underlying malaise in our society. I’d guess most posters on here are, like me, no longer in the first flush of youth; yet there seems to be a feeling this has all just happened in the last few years. It hasn’t; it’s not an accident, or incompetence by any regulatory body or football club leadership. It’s deliberate; it’s planned and it’s working.
In the first 30 years of my life this country created a working Health Service, opened free Secondary State Education for all; owned and ran its own effective utilities, trains ran slower but on time and skilled manual labour was highly valued and paid - every family with one breadwinner could afford a home, an annual holiday and care for their own children.
In 1973 the UK was the most equal in terms of wealth in its history (and the most equal in the world); industrialisation had drawn wealth away from the Capital and raised the incomes of communities in the North. In that society the local football team was a source of pride and fellowship – maybe not as physically capable, technically skilled or strategically organised as today, but it was our team and run by folk who lived with us and we could afford it.
Now we have a national car park for patients, an Education system which obsesses with University entrance, exorbitant private Utilities companies who can’t even keep our rivers clean, trains that don’t even turn up late, manual labour is exploited with low paid insecure jobs and every family needs 2 breadwinners... partly to afford to pay others to look after their children.
Nothing is working; the country is f****d! And the root of this malaise – Thatcherism; the unfettered obsession with privatisation, property ownership, globalisation and just making loads a money. No care for the workers, the customers or the planet.
So no surprise football is now just a commodity, a thing to be bought and sold and heaven help the real fans. The financiers and oligarchs don’t want professional football teams in Rochdale or Workington, Torquay or Aldershot - if it can’t make them millions it needs to go the way of the mines, the steelworks …… and you can chuck in the belief in honour, integrity and competence in our leaders.
Definitely the first ‘signs of madness’, and the second and to infinity TVOS! [Post edited 27 Oct 2023 17:54]
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That's capitalism for you! It's reaching where it was always going to go, more and more wealth in the hands of fewer and fewer people. It's eating itself. When ultimately the balance tips there will be a revolution, unfortunately the mega rich will have all f***** off to space by then !! | | | |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 10:42 - Oct 28 with 9640 views | ChaffRAFC |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 13:55 - Oct 27 by RAFCBLUE |
I don't think the information is that limited.
Last November, ahead of the shareholders AGM, the customary Chairman's letter set out the profit and losses with and without one off events over the five previous five seasons (17/18 to 21/22).
It showed a detailed split of the club's revenue and that in that time window over £2m a season came from the EFL status in terms of TV money, EFL Academy money, grant and prize money etc but that broadly was matched by match attendance and commercial income. The last irregular part of revenue were transfer fees.
So just on matchday and commercial income alone without the EFL we generate c £2m a season of revenue - £40k a week.
The full audited results including one offs are published at Companies House so we know were:
2017/18 - Loss of £0.3m
2018/19 - Loss of £1.2m
2019/20 - Profit of £1.3m
2020/21 - Loss of £1.2m
2021/22 - Loss of £0.4m
FIVE YEAR TOTAL - Loss of £1.8m
What the analysis then showed is what happens if you take out the one off transfer fees and cup runs in those seasons which are outside the control of everyone and the numbers become.
2017/18 - Loss of £1.6m
2018/19 - Loss of £2.2m
2019/20 - Loss of £1.3m
2020/21 - Loss of £1.3m
2021/22 - Loss of £1.5m
FIVE YEAR TOTAL - Loss of £7.9m
You can make the above Chairman (4 in that period), Board, CEO/COO (4 in that period) Manager (3 in that period) neutral. It can't be about individuals when the data shows the same pattern.
None of the people in charge on or off the field turned a profit without one offs over which they had no control.
Andrew Kelly had remarked in June 2020 about how he thought desperate the financial situation and that was a year before the Morton House saga which followed a global pandemic when he wrote those comments.
We bridged £6.1m of loss by cup runs including games against Tottenham, Manchester United and Newcastle and the sale of players or previously sold add ons like Craig Dawson.
The obvious issue of a weekly/monthly/annual operating deficit doesn't get any better in the light of rising cost inflation and rising wage inflation combined with sticking with the same pricing structure.
"As long as we sell a player or have a cup run we each season are ok" used to be the mantra.
The truth is the club, like most others has chosen to run a significant annual operating and cash loss in hope of a one off cash profit arising, not because it wants to but because others do.
The profitability of other League 1 and League 2 clubs over that same time period show similar patterns some gambled more than others and ran bigger losses.
Your point is right that a combination of charging more and having better attendances is what really would make a positive difference but that has been true since the 1980's.
Our woes crystalised with a conflict on direction of desired ownership model vs desired contribution model prior to the sale and then an unannounced sale. Some wanted an owner to fund losses, others didn't. Those who are ok with an owner want to know its the "right" owner which is understandable.
We will lose money year in and year out and continue to. It's the same across the whole pyramid. |
Why then, did we, as a club go out and spend £186,000 (source - Keiran Maguire) on transfer fees for Luke Charman, Tahvon Campbell, and James Ball? All on two year deals.
Why did we hire a manager, sacked from the league below, on a two-year deal?
Why did we sign off on contract extensions that will have included pay rises to players not integral to the first team? (Two for the same player!)
My question at the forum was completely fobbed off by the chairman but I'll ask it again because we've never had an answer:
How do you go from spending the best part of £200,000 on transfers to begging for external investment 12-18 months later? |  |
| If I hadn't seen such riches, I could live with being poor |
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 10:59 - Oct 28 with 9576 views | 442Dale |
Some good questions there, Chaff.
Some other good questions and examples of what had been previously agreed, said and examples of how the club could be doing better.
BUT WE HAVEN’T HAD A CUP RUN OR SOLD ANYONE.
Or something. | |
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 11:28 - Oct 28 with 9532 views | kel |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 10:42 - Oct 28 by ChaffRAFC |
Why then, did we, as a club go out and spend £186,000 (source - Keiran Maguire) on transfer fees for Luke Charman, Tahvon Campbell, and James Ball? All on two year deals.
Why did we hire a manager, sacked from the league below, on a two-year deal?
Why did we sign off on contract extensions that will have included pay rises to players not integral to the first team? (Two for the same player!)
My question at the forum was completely fobbed off by the chairman but I'll ask it again because we've never had an answer:
How do you go from spending the best part of £200,000 on transfers to begging for external investment 12-18 months later? |
Some uncomfortable questions there, Chaff.
I have a feeling you’re never going to get the answer you’re after. |  | | |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 11:38 - Oct 28 with 9516 views | James1980 |
How much did it cost the board to buy the shares Morton House acquired? | |
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 12:10 - Oct 28 with 9461 views | 49thseason |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 15:30 - Oct 27 by RAFCBLUE |
I shall DA and thank you but equally the Trust can and does (and I assume will) set out its position to members in due course.
I'm still not sure how any Board can be asked to disclose to one shareholder (the Trust) when it has the legal responsibility to all shareholders equally and without committing unfair prejudice to other shareholders.
If there is a statutory update to be made then I'd assume all shareholders get to have that at the same time.
I'm also still not sure how the financial outlook now can be any different to what we (shareholders) were told at either the fans forum on 3rd August or EGM later in August 2023 other than the certainty that there will be no FA Cup 3rd round tie for the fourth consecutive season to provide a boost to the much needed coffers and how the Trust withdrawing its nominee will help anything really. |
There is nothing preventing the BoD from issuing a quarterly newsletter to update shareholders. Whilst the total finacial information may be restricted, they could at least tell shareholders if they are on target to meet their financial objectives and the state of play regarding an investor, plus any other information that is relevant to the day to day running of the club such as arrivals and departures of key staff. . They seem to forget that there are 100s of other part-owners of the club who deserve to be kept informed
Details would inevitably emerge, but shareholders would have the information first and would be able to act accordingly if they felt changes were neccessary. A newsletter would also take some of the sting out of the AGM and enable the meeting to focus on the future wellbeing of the club. |  | | |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 12:49 - Oct 28 with 9383 views | 442Dale |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 12:10 - Oct 28 by 49thseason |
There is nothing preventing the BoD from issuing a quarterly newsletter to update shareholders. Whilst the total finacial information may be restricted, they could at least tell shareholders if they are on target to meet their financial objectives and the state of play regarding an investor, plus any other information that is relevant to the day to day running of the club such as arrivals and departures of key staff. . They seem to forget that there are 100s of other part-owners of the club who deserve to be kept informed
Details would inevitably emerge, but shareholders would have the information first and would be able to act accordingly if they felt changes were neccessary. A newsletter would also take some of the sting out of the AGM and enable the meeting to focus on the future wellbeing of the club. |
More good points that deserve both comment and further communication.
You know, like they promised back when we were relegated. Working tirelessly to reengage supporters.
https://www.rochdaleafc.co.uk/news/2023/april/clubupdate_220423/ | |
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 19:12 - Oct 28 with 9137 views | RAFCBLUE |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 10:42 - Oct 28 by ChaffRAFC |
Why then, did we, as a club go out and spend £186,000 (source - Keiran Maguire) on transfer fees for Luke Charman, Tahvon Campbell, and James Ball? All on two year deals.
Why did we hire a manager, sacked from the league below, on a two-year deal?
Why did we sign off on contract extensions that will have included pay rises to players not integral to the first team? (Two for the same player!)
My question at the forum was completely fobbed off by the chairman but I'll ask it again because we've never had an answer:
How do you go from spending the best part of £200,000 on transfers to begging for external investment 12-18 months later? |
I think Chaff some of the answers to your questions are openly available in the published accounts for 21/22 available at Companies House. I can't do a direct link to the PDF but if you click here you can find the PDF here:
https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/00111019/fili
Why then, did we, as a club go out and spend £186,000 (source - Keiran Maguire) on transfer fees for Luke Charman, Tahvon Campbell, and James Ball? All on two year deals.
We spent £186,356 on cost on intangible assets (players) whilst selling £212,608 of cost intangible assets purchased in previous seasons. See Note 7 on Page 18 of the accounts.
We know from the accounts those were three players sold - Stephen Humphrys, Jake Beesley and Aaron Morley. We know those players were sold for £0.9m of initial fees with further contingent fees payable in future years - see page 2 of the accounts.
The £0.7m (difference between the £0.9m and £0.2m) was one of the factors part of overall reducing the audited loss from £1.2m in 2020/21 to £0.5m in 2021/22.
We know that the club backed the manager on the players bought and the club backed him. Ball was a replacement for Morley. Campbell and Charman were replacements for Humphrys and Beesley.
The transfer window of Summer 2021 had been shambolic after what had happened with Morton House and we were under an EFL transfer embargo for most of August 2021 so this looks like a club backing its manager of the time in January 2022 after sales were made.
How do you go from spending the best part of £200,000 on transfers to begging for external investment 12-18 months later?
As above, the £200,000 was based on money already coming in from £0.9m of sales.
One offs aside the club loses about £1.5m or £30k a week to operate. Our Board said at the August forum they have extended the most financing they can so the options with the control of the club are either:
(1) Cut the playing budget - the biggest cost
(2) Increase attendances - has been tried for years
(3) Increase ticket prices - deemed to have a negative impact on attendance
(4) Increase commercial revenues
Add in that we next season lose the EFL parachute money if not promoted is the key change; as I posted elsewhere the last Chairman's letter before last years AGM showed that we got circa £2.0m from EFL and FA TV, EFL and FA Grant and prize money.
Even the auditor says in Note 2 (Page 17):
The accounts have been prepared using the going concern basis, however whilst the directors are of the opinion that this remains appropriate, there are fundamental uncertainties which may affect the club's ability to continue as a going concern. Those uncertainties are as follows:
- The impact from possible relegation from the EFL to the National League
- The outcome of seeking new investment into the club. At an extraordinary general meeting on 17 November 2022 shareholders unanimously passed resolutions to increase the authorised share capital of the club and allow the creation of 450,000 new shares
- The outcome of generating non-recurring revenue and realisation of value from sales of players in a depressed transfer market post COVID-19
- The outcome of a material commercial insurance claim relating to COVID-19 which is currently under negotiation.
People will soon be looking at 2024/25 if we don't go back up (which is highly likely when there are only two promotion places available) and think about how to fund that loss to be competitive - or reduce our wage budget to the levels of Wealdstone, Dorking etc to balance the books or have a way to cover the losses.
We are not alone in that problem as there are 20 other National League clubs just like us in the same boat of losing money to put out a team and most of League 2 and League 1 are open to investment.
It's telling that the top 3 of League 2 are three recent non-league clubs with underwritten financial losses. Wrexham lost £2.9m in the same period as the accounts you are referring to where we lost £0.5m and didn't get out of the National League that season.
Some of the figures at other clubs are staggering.
https://www.wrexhamafc.co.uk/news/2023/march/statement--annual-report-and-financ | |
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