| What are the finances like at RAFC? 12:39 - Oct 27 with 21493 views | A_Newby |
Using what limited information is publicly available, you can get an appreciation of the black hole in the finances of the Dale.
Since last season we have lost around £650,000 premier league solidarity money and the income from the EFL trophy and EFL cup. Last season the club was losing money even with this funding.
For this season we have kept the full premier league RINGFENCED funding for the academy (£600,000?) and a full EFL league 2 payment (£550,000?). Next season if we do not get promoted these will drop by 50% so the club would lose at least another £500,000 of funding.
I think the chairman in the fans’ forum made a point something like if we didn’t have to pay players’ wages then we might be able to break even.
In other words, if around 2,500 paying fans turned up around 30 times per year and spent money in the bars and on refreshments and sat in the stadium for 2-3 hours watching a well-maintained empty football pitch or maybe an amateur team playing then the club could possibly break even.
The reason why is simple, the costs now of maintaining the ground and hosting football at the stadium for 2,500 fans is greater than the match day income generated from these fans.
For example, just looking at the energy costs as outlined at the last fans’ forum. If the same amount of energy is used this year as last, the bill under the new price deal will rise from around £60,000 to over £200,000.
£200,000 per year with an average attendance of 2,500 gives an energy price of £80 per fan per season. So, if a season card holder pays £100 for their ticket, £20 would go in VAT and the remainder towards the energy bill. Before there are any funds from matchday income to pay towards a a football squad there are also other costs to pay such as business rates, the ground and pitch maintenance and match day security.
There are really only three ways to increase the matchday income, raise entrance prices, get fans to spend more in the ground and increase the number of supporters.
I am hoping that the club can at least renegotiate its energy prices.
I still think that season card prices are too low and have been ever since the Russ Green “experiment”. Next season whatever the outcome I would raise them by £30 across the board for all over 16-year-olds.
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 19:40 - Oct 28 with 2088 views | 442Dale |
Ahead of the accounts for 21/22, this at the end of April 2022:
https://www.rochdaleafc.co.uk/news/2022/april/chairmanmessageseasoncards_22-23/
“stable financial platform”
“cash reserves to be well positioned for next season”
“ planning for a significantly increased playing budget for next season”
“we seek to achieve break even or better financial result in each operating season.”
It’s been done to death. That loyal Rochdale fans simply want and deserve more information should be applauded, because that’s why we are so proud of what we’ve achieved over the years as a football club. Doing things the Dale way is something we know was the right thing to do. |  |
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 20:34 - Oct 28 with 2000 views | RAFCBLUE |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 16:23 - Oct 27 by TalkingSutty |
As a fellow supporter and somebody who obviously seems to have a better financial grasp on the running of the club than the average fan I'm interested to know what you think would be the best scenario going forward for the club. The Chairman and the Directors are looking for investors to come in, they want to recoup their outlay. The likelihood of that happening in the near future looks slim. The club is losing money hand over fist i assume, the Chairman even suggested liquidation further down the line. The running of the stadium will become a financial noose around the neck of the club,it probably is now. Is there anyway we could use the stadium etc to access funds to reset the club? What do you see as the best case scenario and if you put yourself in the Chairman's shoes, with the money he has put into the club, what would you do? What also needs to be remembered is that collectively hundreds of other people have also invested in shares. Andrew Kelly will also be watching all of this carefully, he also has a large shareholding. So it can't all be about what the preferred option is for those in the Boardroom. Maybe the very thing that was put in place to protect the club, a large number of shareholders, is the thing that is now putting off potential investors? [Post edited 27 Oct 2023 21:07]
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IMHO TS it depends where you think football is going.
My own view is that there is currently a broadcast war going on for worldwide TV rights which will come to a head in the next decade first in 2024/25 when the Premier League TV deal is up for renewal and then before 2030 when that next Premier League TV deal ends.
This has the values up for grabs - overseas rights are now more valuable than the UK rights:
https://theathletic.com/4240951/2023/08/25/premier-league-tv-rights-how-work-cos
This time Amazon and Disney and other streaming platforms will come in and play vs the traditional Sky and BT/TNT Sports. Amazon have already been dabbling since 2020. Expect to see a shift to on tablet viewing and more on demand viewing for clubs.
The Premier League has 4 billion worldwide viewers on a planet of 7 billion people so if each one of them was prepared to pay one US dollar per broadcast game that is suddenly a huge sum and huge TV market.
The Saudi League is going to have a crack at that TV market and have started by spending $1 billion on players in this window and have committed circa $7 billion to the project already, notwithstanding in the last 10 years the Middle East has built a network of worldwide clubs including Manchester City and Newcastle and all of those are tradeable assets and span most of Europe's top clubs.
We saw a march to that in April 2021 with the failed Euro Super League but that is where I think the game is headed.
In return, UEFA redid the Champions League format from next season which is the first step to a European Super League.
People are not going to games, the next generation of supporters is educated to consume everything on a tablet or smartphone device and it is possible to stream every game at any time of day or night wherever you are in the world. Someone posted earlier they watched our game at Hartlepool today from Brazil.
In English football the last 30 years have seen the widening of the us and them between the Premier League and EFL. There are only six ever presents and I think over 50 teams in the pyramid that have been in the Premier League since inception. For a number of them it became a curse rather than a dream.
The EFL clubs have had one of two options - chase the dream (e.g. Derby County, Reading, Fleetwood Town, Salford City, bury) or survive (and I include us, Accy Stanley etc in that).
COVID nearly saw a lot of clubs off and in truth most have not recovered.
The Premier League has no interest in the EFL as was seen for the contempt for the possible regulator (which IMO will never materialise) and a few financial scraps for the 72 below the Premier League to keep them onside. The bottom three of the Premier League won the Championship last year so comfortably that it is embarrassing and Leicester and Leeds should go back at the first attempt, such is the depth of their financial resource vs other clubs. Leicester's bench today had a number of £5m+ players on it and they'll play most Championship clubs this year that can't spend £5m on a player.
For us, we are going to get nothing from the EFL assuming we can get back into it anyway. The FA Cup has slowly been stripped of lucrative replays, Saturday ties and shocks to not upset the Premier League. Since 1992 it is only something like two years in 31 where a team outside the top 8 of the Premier League has managed to win the FA Cup.
It costs about £1.5m to fund losses at this level which we and most clubs don't have. There are clubs like Wrexham, Stockport and Notts County shedding bigger losses but jumping the leagues quicker than they might already.
Our issue is that for years we have all had grumbles but the based expectation is that at least one director would bail the club out financially.
That started with Fred Ratcliffe and his Rolls Royce which guaranteed reelection but others like Brian Kilpatrick, David Kilpatrick, Graham Morris, Chris Dunphy and Andrew Kelly all did that (and probably others that I've omitted to mention)
In return those financially lending money got shares in the club. The Board of the club was a gents club and it cost money to join and was invite only. Broadly £25,000 "joining fee" for the privilege/hassle of being on the Board.
It all changed for me when parties start to sell their shares. Dunphy sold to two Americans investors after he stepped down and then six individuals - including three former Board directors and the two Americans sold to Morton House in 2021.
Those who sold effectively got their "joining fee" back and perhaps made a profit such was the stupid levels of share prices being quoted by Captain Sabotage to Fat Pat.
That mentality put the club into immense peril and it is only down to Andrew Kelly that Morton House didn't get to 50%. If he had buckled we wouldn't be having these debates.
Six new volunteer statutory directors were found on the premise of all hands to the pump but a huge loss of the entire organization including Brian Barry-Murphy who walked out to go to Man City's set-up just before the season started whilst under contract and the club was under transfer embargo.
If that wasn't bad enough the new directors then get dragged through a High Court battle and an EFL investigation both of which concluded about a year ago.
In club terms all wholly unavoidable and IMO contributing to the relegations in 2021 and 2023, the 2021 one had champange opened which tells you all you need to know.
The macro environment of football has changed immeasurably.
We haven't cracked the answer to how to fund an operating loss of £1.5m a year in an environment of no transfer fee or cup run (but accept that we should try) but then expect the Board of the day to stand behind the club financially.
Three directors of the last Board sold out to Morton House and took their money and ran. I've not seen any of them at a Dale game since.
Dunphy I have some sympathy for but he was effectively managed out when he had 9% of the club but he allowed himself to be put in that position by people he had appointed. I firmly think that when the penny dropped that he had sold his shares for cash, others reflected that perhaps they could do the same.
For example, Andrew Kilpatrick used to own 110,000 shares which was converted into a life changing amount of money to most people. None of that money went into the club.
The only way I can see our club and others like Rochdale still being in existence in 2030 is to broadly follow the Exeter model which is:
(1) 50.1% legally owned by the Supporters Trust with the Supporters Trust contributing 8 of the allowed Board of 15 statutory directors
(2) 49.9% owned privately by a maximum of 7 individuals (7% each) which should be Board members.
(3) Each shareholder is responsible underwriting the losses to their given percentage.
(4) Aim to breakeven but accept that is not possible.
(5) Work to make home games a real event in the town and get attendances over 5,000. There are only 23 events of not at Spotland each season and most of the town come out for games like Oldham but don't for the others.
(6) Work to have an Academy where the ethos is to deliberately sell the players further up the chain rather than actually playing them in the first team. At our level the Ethan Brierley's and George Nevitt's are youth players still developing and get kicked off the park. You can't do that in the Premier League any more. What you can do is find talent the Premier League can't see.
(7) Run age group teams from Under 9's to Under 23's all based on volunteers for both men's and women's football.
The blockers to get there as I see them:
(A) The 212,895 shares that were sold to Morton House and then bought by serving directors. Those need buying by the Trust at nil gain/nil loss. Those caught by events didn't sign up for that and don't deserve that given they stopped an unsanctioned change of control from actually happening.
(B) Getting the Trust to 50.1%. There are a couple of ways to solve that which could involve supporters donating their own shares to the Trust or the Trust buying some of those available new ones or some private transactions. The list of big shareholders is publicly available.
(C) People. Most people involved in Rochdale over the years are unpaid volunteers. They do their role and job for love not grief.
At a push the best we can ever expect is to get back to League 1 over time (10 years); the Championship will never be attained and between now and then there will be a lot of damage to many clubs from Man United down who have borrowed vast sums and without TV can't afford to pay them back. I think that clubs like Forest Green and Harrogate will slip back out of the league when their respective owners move on; that's the biggest challenge a club with an owner has.
By 2033 we will be on the verge of a second Middle East FIFA World Cup in 12 years, the Saudi League will be full of the best paid players and the TV rights will all be on demand. I don't think Sky TV will exist in its current form. I don't think the EFL will survive in its current form either and become like the RFL has in rugby league.
Not that any of those matter for our future existence, which is going to have to be more localised. Whether we remain in our current form or end up more like bury, Chester or Darlington's reformed teams remains to be seen.
All IMHO TS and you did ask what I would do! |  |
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 20:46 - Oct 28 with 1976 views | RAFCBLUE |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 11:38 - Oct 28 by James1980 |
How much did it cost the board to buy the shares Morton House acquired? |
It's never been disclosed but I think you can work it out from entries in the public domain during 2022 James.
On 26th August 2022, the club announced it had settled the Morton House issue and Morton House has agreed to transfer its full beneficial shareholding of 212,895 shares to a consortium of seven individuals
https://www.rochdaleafc.co.uk/news/2022/august/statement_26.08.22/
The EFL decision from 14 October 2022 confirmed that there were 212,895 shares sold by individuals to Morton House:
https://www.efl.com/contentassets/2360941774f04705bf2c384b511bca04/221014---efl-
Paragraph 32:
On 1 July 2021, Morton House entered into share purchase agreements (the “SPAs”) with six shareholders of the Club, by which Morton House bought 212,895 shares in total (an overall 42.3% of the issued shares of the Club-owning company Rochdale Association Football Club Limited). DB himself sold 12,960 shares, which was just under 2.6% of the Club. One of the other sellers was Graham Rawlinson, who had been a director of the Club from at least September 2019 until removed on 1 June 2021.
On 11th November 2022, the club noted is was seeking new investment at £2.35 a share:
https://www.rochdaleafc.co.uk/news/2022/november/agmsharespreinterest/
"There is a motion in the EGM is to create 450,000 new shares at £2.35 a share, the most recent market transaction price at which shares have been traded"
Putting two and two together:
212,895 shares @ £2.35 = £500,303.25
If you look at the most recent Confirmation Statement at Companies House you can see where those went to and from. | |
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 21:08 - Oct 28 with 1907 views | TalkingSutty |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 20:34 - Oct 28 by RAFCBLUE |
IMHO TS it depends where you think football is going.
My own view is that there is currently a broadcast war going on for worldwide TV rights which will come to a head in the next decade first in 2024/25 when the Premier League TV deal is up for renewal and then before 2030 when that next Premier League TV deal ends.
This has the values up for grabs - overseas rights are now more valuable than the UK rights:
https://theathletic.com/4240951/2023/08/25/premier-league-tv-rights-how-work-cos
This time Amazon and Disney and other streaming platforms will come in and play vs the traditional Sky and BT/TNT Sports. Amazon have already been dabbling since 2020. Expect to see a shift to on tablet viewing and more on demand viewing for clubs.
The Premier League has 4 billion worldwide viewers on a planet of 7 billion people so if each one of them was prepared to pay one US dollar per broadcast game that is suddenly a huge sum and huge TV market.
The Saudi League is going to have a crack at that TV market and have started by spending $1 billion on players in this window and have committed circa $7 billion to the project already, notwithstanding in the last 10 years the Middle East has built a network of worldwide clubs including Manchester City and Newcastle and all of those are tradeable assets and span most of Europe's top clubs.
We saw a march to that in April 2021 with the failed Euro Super League but that is where I think the game is headed.
In return, UEFA redid the Champions League format from next season which is the first step to a European Super League.
People are not going to games, the next generation of supporters is educated to consume everything on a tablet or smartphone device and it is possible to stream every game at any time of day or night wherever you are in the world. Someone posted earlier they watched our game at Hartlepool today from Brazil.
In English football the last 30 years have seen the widening of the us and them between the Premier League and EFL. There are only six ever presents and I think over 50 teams in the pyramid that have been in the Premier League since inception. For a number of them it became a curse rather than a dream.
The EFL clubs have had one of two options - chase the dream (e.g. Derby County, Reading, Fleetwood Town, Salford City, bury) or survive (and I include us, Accy Stanley etc in that).
COVID nearly saw a lot of clubs off and in truth most have not recovered.
The Premier League has no interest in the EFL as was seen for the contempt for the possible regulator (which IMO will never materialise) and a few financial scraps for the 72 below the Premier League to keep them onside. The bottom three of the Premier League won the Championship last year so comfortably that it is embarrassing and Leicester and Leeds should go back at the first attempt, such is the depth of their financial resource vs other clubs. Leicester's bench today had a number of £5m+ players on it and they'll play most Championship clubs this year that can't spend £5m on a player.
For us, we are going to get nothing from the EFL assuming we can get back into it anyway. The FA Cup has slowly been stripped of lucrative replays, Saturday ties and shocks to not upset the Premier League. Since 1992 it is only something like two years in 31 where a team outside the top 8 of the Premier League has managed to win the FA Cup.
It costs about £1.5m to fund losses at this level which we and most clubs don't have. There are clubs like Wrexham, Stockport and Notts County shedding bigger losses but jumping the leagues quicker than they might already.
Our issue is that for years we have all had grumbles but the based expectation is that at least one director would bail the club out financially.
That started with Fred Ratcliffe and his Rolls Royce which guaranteed reelection but others like Brian Kilpatrick, David Kilpatrick, Graham Morris, Chris Dunphy and Andrew Kelly all did that (and probably others that I've omitted to mention)
In return those financially lending money got shares in the club. The Board of the club was a gents club and it cost money to join and was invite only. Broadly £25,000 "joining fee" for the privilege/hassle of being on the Board.
It all changed for me when parties start to sell their shares. Dunphy sold to two Americans investors after he stepped down and then six individuals - including three former Board directors and the two Americans sold to Morton House in 2021.
Those who sold effectively got their "joining fee" back and perhaps made a profit such was the stupid levels of share prices being quoted by Captain Sabotage to Fat Pat.
That mentality put the club into immense peril and it is only down to Andrew Kelly that Morton House didn't get to 50%. If he had buckled we wouldn't be having these debates.
Six new volunteer statutory directors were found on the premise of all hands to the pump but a huge loss of the entire organization including Brian Barry-Murphy who walked out to go to Man City's set-up just before the season started whilst under contract and the club was under transfer embargo.
If that wasn't bad enough the new directors then get dragged through a High Court battle and an EFL investigation both of which concluded about a year ago.
In club terms all wholly unavoidable and IMO contributing to the relegations in 2021 and 2023, the 2021 one had champange opened which tells you all you need to know.
The macro environment of football has changed immeasurably.
We haven't cracked the answer to how to fund an operating loss of £1.5m a year in an environment of no transfer fee or cup run (but accept that we should try) but then expect the Board of the day to stand behind the club financially.
Three directors of the last Board sold out to Morton House and took their money and ran. I've not seen any of them at a Dale game since.
Dunphy I have some sympathy for but he was effectively managed out when he had 9% of the club but he allowed himself to be put in that position by people he had appointed. I firmly think that when the penny dropped that he had sold his shares for cash, others reflected that perhaps they could do the same.
For example, Andrew Kilpatrick used to own 110,000 shares which was converted into a life changing amount of money to most people. None of that money went into the club.
The only way I can see our club and others like Rochdale still being in existence in 2030 is to broadly follow the Exeter model which is:
(1) 50.1% legally owned by the Supporters Trust with the Supporters Trust contributing 8 of the allowed Board of 15 statutory directors
(2) 49.9% owned privately by a maximum of 7 individuals (7% each) which should be Board members.
(3) Each shareholder is responsible underwriting the losses to their given percentage.
(4) Aim to breakeven but accept that is not possible.
(5) Work to make home games a real event in the town and get attendances over 5,000. There are only 23 events of not at Spotland each season and most of the town come out for games like Oldham but don't for the others.
(6) Work to have an Academy where the ethos is to deliberately sell the players further up the chain rather than actually playing them in the first team. At our level the Ethan Brierley's and George Nevitt's are youth players still developing and get kicked off the park. You can't do that in the Premier League any more. What you can do is find talent the Premier League can't see.
(7) Run age group teams from Under 9's to Under 23's all based on volunteers for both men's and women's football.
The blockers to get there as I see them:
(A) The 212,895 shares that were sold to Morton House and then bought by serving directors. Those need buying by the Trust at nil gain/nil loss. Those caught by events didn't sign up for that and don't deserve that given they stopped an unsanctioned change of control from actually happening.
(B) Getting the Trust to 50.1%. There are a couple of ways to solve that which could involve supporters donating their own shares to the Trust or the Trust buying some of those available new ones or some private transactions. The list of big shareholders is publicly available.
(C) People. Most people involved in Rochdale over the years are unpaid volunteers. They do their role and job for love not grief.
At a push the best we can ever expect is to get back to League 1 over time (10 years); the Championship will never be attained and between now and then there will be a lot of damage to many clubs from Man United down who have borrowed vast sums and without TV can't afford to pay them back. I think that clubs like Forest Green and Harrogate will slip back out of the league when their respective owners move on; that's the biggest challenge a club with an owner has.
By 2033 we will be on the verge of a second Middle East FIFA World Cup in 12 years, the Saudi League will be full of the best paid players and the TV rights will all be on demand. I don't think Sky TV will exist in its current form. I don't think the EFL will survive in its current form either and become like the RFL has in rugby league.
Not that any of those matter for our future existence, which is going to have to be more localised. Whether we remain in our current form or end up more like bury, Chester or Darlington's reformed teams remains to be seen.
All IMHO TS and you did ask what I would do! |
A lot of work has gone into that reply and i appreciate the effort but very little of it relates to the specific questions i posed in my post. Your musings are interesting though and i agree with the jist of it.
Regionalising leagues and amalgamating clubs if possible would be something that i would like to see. I'd prefer that to seeing clubs just going to the wall and fans losing their clubs altogether. I know there are some who would never contemplate seeing their club merge with another and would rather it go out of business completely. Together stronger is better than no football at all i think. Even sharing stadiums/ running costs etc. It's radical I know but things can't carry on as they are. I think they call it 'blue sky thinking', that's what we need. [Post edited 28 Oct 2023 21:25]
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 21:24 - Oct 28 with 1871 views | RAFCBLUE |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 21:08 - Oct 28 by TalkingSutty |
A lot of work has gone into that reply and i appreciate the effort but very little of it relates to the specific questions i posed in my post. Your musings are interesting though and i agree with the jist of it.
Regionalising leagues and amalgamating clubs if possible would be something that i would like to see. I'd prefer that to seeing clubs just going to the wall and fans losing their clubs altogether. I know there are some who would never contemplate seeing their club merge with another and would rather it go out of business completely. Together stronger is better than no football at all i think. Even sharing stadiums/ running costs etc. It's radical I know but things can't carry on as they are. I think they call it 'blue sky thinking', that's what we need. [Post edited 28 Oct 2023 21:25]
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I thought that too TS but to pose the questions on where IMHO the TV market is going it then becomes a bit circular.
The biggest one is would the Trust ever want to take the role that Exeter's Trust did to ensure our survival? Exeter had to amend their constitution which happened in 2003 where 22 members of their Trust persuaded the other 400+ members to change the original Constitution from 'support' for the Club to 'own' the Club.
The second is where does the funds come from to get to 50.1% either immediately or over time?
If the Trust is not going to become the dominant shareholder then that opens the door for another party to do that which leads back to the "will we ever be happy with who that is?" and how Morton House came into being.
Then there is the ongoing funding - even in the circumstances of reducing an operating loss through better attendances, a favourable Cup run and transfer fees does the Trust have the appetite to ask members to fund losses when they fall due?
The real mess comes from the fact that Andrew Kilpatrick owned 22% of the club prior to July 2021 sale to Morton House. That would have been the way to do it in one purchase much harder now given 42% of the club got split into 7.
I'm not sure the appetite is there (understandably) which is why we are off down the "investor" route. There also doesn't appear to be a 2023 Rochdale entrepreneur wanting to take it on so we are stuck.
But the money still needs to be found when you are loss making to keep you going or else that will be it. | |
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 21:33 - Oct 28 with 1848 views | TalkingSutty |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 21:24 - Oct 28 by RAFCBLUE |
I thought that too TS but to pose the questions on where IMHO the TV market is going it then becomes a bit circular.
The biggest one is would the Trust ever want to take the role that Exeter's Trust did to ensure our survival? Exeter had to amend their constitution which happened in 2003 where 22 members of their Trust persuaded the other 400+ members to change the original Constitution from 'support' for the Club to 'own' the Club.
The second is where does the funds come from to get to 50.1% either immediately or over time?
If the Trust is not going to become the dominant shareholder then that opens the door for another party to do that which leads back to the "will we ever be happy with who that is?" and how Morton House came into being.
Then there is the ongoing funding - even in the circumstances of reducing an operating loss through better attendances, a favourable Cup run and transfer fees does the Trust have the appetite to ask members to fund losses when they fall due?
The real mess comes from the fact that Andrew Kilpatrick owned 22% of the club prior to July 2021 sale to Morton House. That would have been the way to do it in one purchase much harder now given 42% of the club got split into 7.
I'm not sure the appetite is there (understandably) which is why we are off down the "investor" route. There also doesn't appear to be a 2023 Rochdale entrepreneur wanting to take it on so we are stuck.
But the money still needs to be found when you are loss making to keep you going or else that will be it. |
The Stadium is a asset, mortgage free. What would you do with that? The longer this all plays out the less finance will be left in the Stadium. | | | |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 21:41 - Oct 28 with 1822 views | D_Alien |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 21:24 - Oct 28 by RAFCBLUE |
I thought that too TS but to pose the questions on where IMHO the TV market is going it then becomes a bit circular.
The biggest one is would the Trust ever want to take the role that Exeter's Trust did to ensure our survival? Exeter had to amend their constitution which happened in 2003 where 22 members of their Trust persuaded the other 400+ members to change the original Constitution from 'support' for the Club to 'own' the Club.
The second is where does the funds come from to get to 50.1% either immediately or over time?
If the Trust is not going to become the dominant shareholder then that opens the door for another party to do that which leads back to the "will we ever be happy with who that is?" and how Morton House came into being.
Then there is the ongoing funding - even in the circumstances of reducing an operating loss through better attendances, a favourable Cup run and transfer fees does the Trust have the appetite to ask members to fund losses when they fall due?
The real mess comes from the fact that Andrew Kilpatrick owned 22% of the club prior to July 2021 sale to Morton House. That would have been the way to do it in one purchase much harder now given 42% of the club got split into 7.
I'm not sure the appetite is there (understandably) which is why we are off down the "investor" route. There also doesn't appear to be a 2023 Rochdale entrepreneur wanting to take it on so we are stuck.
But the money still needs to be found when you are loss making to keep you going or else that will be it. |
Speculation about the future is something of a sport in itself, but starting with the Trust/BoD meeting, we can only deal with what we have in front of us
The key word in that sentence is "us" and should never again be "us" and "them" as the current board (and all who sailed in her) have allowed it to become |  |
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 21:47 - Oct 28 with 1790 views | RAFCBLUE |
I'm not sure it is currently mortgage free as shareholders voted in August 2023 to allow a secured loan by two directors which was done under the Morris Resolution. That was to allow a secured loan on the ground.
https://www.rochdaleafc.co.uk/news/2023/july/notice-of-egm/
In a theoretical sense raising a sensible mortgage against a long term property asset is a practical and sensible thing to do, however is that possible in the current economic and football circumstances of 2023?
I can't think of a well known bank that would touch a loss making level 5 football club so you would then be forced to find either a friendly party who had the funds to lend and a logical business reason to do so (i.e. Rochdale Council) or a "specialist lender".
Those specialists are notoriously expensive on the interest as our friends in BL9 found and on default you completely lose the ground to the lender.
Stewart Day managed to borrow £1m, secured on the Gigg Lane ground, at an annual interest rate of 138% which ended up being £3.7m.
It would only work for me if there was certainty of no default and shareholders approved it (under the Morris Resolution) which brings us back to ownership again. Obviously if there was a friendly lender on friendly terms that lessens the risk but you can get 5.95% fixed savings rate for a year with a bank so any lender is going to want a premium on that rate for the risk. | |
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 22:05 - Oct 28 with 1754 views | RAFCBLUE |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 21:41 - Oct 28 by D_Alien |
Speculation about the future is something of a sport in itself, but starting with the Trust/BoD meeting, we can only deal with what we have in front of us
The key word in that sentence is "us" and should never again be "us" and "them" as the current board (and all who sailed in her) have allowed it to become |
Speculating is great fun, but back in the real world and practically, how do you actually propose that any annual financial losses of the club are funded DA in your world of "us"?
Let's imagine for the example that the annual loss of RAFC is some number between £0.5m and £2.0m a season (depending on one-offs like cup runs and transfer fees).
How do you propose that position is (a) improved and (b) who is the deficit being funded by?
£0.5m to £2.0m for this season and £0.5m to £2.0m for next season (assuming we don't get promoted). So £1.0m to £4.0m to find to ensure the club kick off in August 2025 in some league.
You're obviously critical of the current board who saved the club ("and all who sailed in her"), and completely entitled to that opinion but the given the only other option in 2021 and 2022 was the appointed Director handing the keys to Morton House and four people who the EFL under due process actively banned from football until 2024, which cost them circa £0.5m of real cash perhaps you consider that now would have been a better option for us?
I'm sure any suggestions you might have to cover ongoing financial losses or new sources of funding would be welcomed by both the Trust and current Board. | |
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 22:13 - Oct 28 with 1735 views | TalkingSutty |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 21:47 - Oct 28 by RAFCBLUE |
I'm not sure it is currently mortgage free as shareholders voted in August 2023 to allow a secured loan by two directors which was done under the Morris Resolution. That was to allow a secured loan on the ground.
https://www.rochdaleafc.co.uk/news/2023/july/notice-of-egm/
In a theoretical sense raising a sensible mortgage against a long term property asset is a practical and sensible thing to do, however is that possible in the current economic and football circumstances of 2023?
I can't think of a well known bank that would touch a loss making level 5 football club so you would then be forced to find either a friendly party who had the funds to lend and a logical business reason to do so (i.e. Rochdale Council) or a "specialist lender".
Those specialists are notoriously expensive on the interest as our friends in BL9 found and on default you completely lose the ground to the lender.
Stewart Day managed to borrow £1m, secured on the Gigg Lane ground, at an annual interest rate of 138% which ended up being £3.7m.
It would only work for me if there was certainty of no default and shareholders approved it (under the Morris Resolution) which brings us back to ownership again. Obviously if there was a friendly lender on friendly terms that lessens the risk but you can get 5.95% fixed savings rate for a year with a bank so any lender is going to want a premium on that rate for the risk. |
Thanks. | | | |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 22:15 - Oct 28 with 1730 views | D_Alien |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 22:05 - Oct 28 by RAFCBLUE |
Speculating is great fun, but back in the real world and practically, how do you actually propose that any annual financial losses of the club are funded DA in your world of "us"?
Let's imagine for the example that the annual loss of RAFC is some number between £0.5m and £2.0m a season (depending on one-offs like cup runs and transfer fees).
How do you propose that position is (a) improved and (b) who is the deficit being funded by?
£0.5m to £2.0m for this season and £0.5m to £2.0m for next season (assuming we don't get promoted). So £1.0m to £4.0m to find to ensure the club kick off in August 2025 in some league.
You're obviously critical of the current board who saved the club ("and all who sailed in her"), and completely entitled to that opinion but the given the only other option in 2021 and 2022 was the appointed Director handing the keys to Morton House and four people who the EFL under due process actively banned from football until 2024, which cost them circa £0.5m of real cash perhaps you consider that now would have been a better option for us?
I'm sure any suggestions you might have to cover ongoing financial losses or new sources of funding would be welcomed by both the Trust and current Board. |
Let's just start from actually knowing what the position is - in the real world
I've suggested an inventory of tasks to be undertaken on a voluntary basis to help bring costs down, a task which the board said they were committed to when they took over but which has been left to drift. All those who were involved in the fixing of the electricity deal, for example, should hang their heads in shame (who might that include?)
We all know there's no magic wand or "true fan" with deep enough pockets. I for one am sick to death of hearing from "money men" - they might know the rules but they know f*ck all else [Post edited 28 Oct 2023 22:17]
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 22:25 - Oct 28 with 1691 views | 442Dale |
A huge amount of time and work already been put in by the Trust and supporters, plenty of which would benefitted the club financially if there was a true commitment to move it forward properly. Without the continued persistence of supporters we wouldn’t even have progressed to that (poor) report that appeared recently.
It’s worth reading Judd’s post earlier in the thread. [Post edited 28 Oct 2023 22:26]
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 22:37 - Oct 28 with 1655 views | RAFCBLUE |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 22:15 - Oct 28 by D_Alien |
Let's just start from actually knowing what the position is - in the real world
I've suggested an inventory of tasks to be undertaken on a voluntary basis to help bring costs down, a task which the board said they were committed to when they took over but which has been left to drift. All those who were involved in the fixing of the electricity deal, for example, should hang their heads in shame (who might that include?)
We all know there's no magic wand or "true fan" with deep enough pockets. I for one am sick to death of hearing from "money men" - they might know the rules but they know f*ck all else [Post edited 28 Oct 2023 22:17]
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A disappointing manifesto that DA.
Starts well with "We all know there's no magic wand" but then some should "hang their heads in shame"
What are you actual expecting from them if you have no practical and open suggestions or desire to stand yourself (I assume you have considered this).
These are individuals that bought their way onto the Board in 2021 under persuasion after the June 2021 AGM and then stepped in with a further circa £0.5m of their own cash to buy 212,895 shares in the club from Morton House that others had sold contrary to EFL rules which led to 4 individual bans from football.
The six individuals who sold them walked away according to Captain Sabotage with in excess of £1 million to date in consideration for shares, due diligence and legal costs. . They seem to have done quite well.
Two current directors have then committed to lend a significant sum to the club should it be needed which shareholders approved.
I'm not sure Andrew Kelly or any other director for that matter who has served the club in the turbulent period has to do anything other than hold his head high that contribution and that of many others behind the scenes.
We still exist but that fight gets harder financially and will continue to.
That's not limited to just us but nearly every other club in League 1 and 2 too.
You don't have any solutions it appears. | |
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 22:50 - Oct 28 with 1626 views | D_Alien |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 22:37 - Oct 28 by RAFCBLUE |
A disappointing manifesto that DA.
Starts well with "We all know there's no magic wand" but then some should "hang their heads in shame"
What are you actual expecting from them if you have no practical and open suggestions or desire to stand yourself (I assume you have considered this).
These are individuals that bought their way onto the Board in 2021 under persuasion after the June 2021 AGM and then stepped in with a further circa £0.5m of their own cash to buy 212,895 shares in the club from Morton House that others had sold contrary to EFL rules which led to 4 individual bans from football.
The six individuals who sold them walked away according to Captain Sabotage with in excess of £1 million to date in consideration for shares, due diligence and legal costs. . They seem to have done quite well.
Two current directors have then committed to lend a significant sum to the club should it be needed which shareholders approved.
I'm not sure Andrew Kelly or any other director for that matter who has served the club in the turbulent period has to do anything other than hold his head high that contribution and that of many others behind the scenes.
We still exist but that fight gets harder financially and will continue to.
That's not limited to just us but nearly every other club in League 1 and 2 too.
You don't have any solutions it appears. |
I've made a proposal, and offered my time as a volunteer
As far as standing for a position in the Trust, i'm all too well aware of how that can compromise the ability to speak out, so no thanks (and wouldn't get elected anyway!)
The only disappointment has been the performance of those at the helm and their advisors, who after a brilliant and highly praised start which looked to engage the fanbase fell short of that basic requirement. For absolutely sure, they've put funds in when it was do or die, and they'll always have credit for that - but why then disappoint by withdrawing their engagement with fans?
It's not a "manifesto" by the way - just a simple and expedient proposal. If you have a better one, let's hear it from you... | |
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 22:58 - Oct 28 with 1597 views | 49thseason |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 20:34 - Oct 28 by RAFCBLUE |
IMHO TS it depends where you think football is going.
My own view is that there is currently a broadcast war going on for worldwide TV rights which will come to a head in the next decade first in 2024/25 when the Premier League TV deal is up for renewal and then before 2030 when that next Premier League TV deal ends.
This has the values up for grabs - overseas rights are now more valuable than the UK rights:
https://theathletic.com/4240951/2023/08/25/premier-league-tv-rights-how-work-cos
This time Amazon and Disney and other streaming platforms will come in and play vs the traditional Sky and BT/TNT Sports. Amazon have already been dabbling since 2020. Expect to see a shift to on tablet viewing and more on demand viewing for clubs.
The Premier League has 4 billion worldwide viewers on a planet of 7 billion people so if each one of them was prepared to pay one US dollar per broadcast game that is suddenly a huge sum and huge TV market.
The Saudi League is going to have a crack at that TV market and have started by spending $1 billion on players in this window and have committed circa $7 billion to the project already, notwithstanding in the last 10 years the Middle East has built a network of worldwide clubs including Manchester City and Newcastle and all of those are tradeable assets and span most of Europe's top clubs.
We saw a march to that in April 2021 with the failed Euro Super League but that is where I think the game is headed.
In return, UEFA redid the Champions League format from next season which is the first step to a European Super League.
People are not going to games, the next generation of supporters is educated to consume everything on a tablet or smartphone device and it is possible to stream every game at any time of day or night wherever you are in the world. Someone posted earlier they watched our game at Hartlepool today from Brazil.
In English football the last 30 years have seen the widening of the us and them between the Premier League and EFL. There are only six ever presents and I think over 50 teams in the pyramid that have been in the Premier League since inception. For a number of them it became a curse rather than a dream.
The EFL clubs have had one of two options - chase the dream (e.g. Derby County, Reading, Fleetwood Town, Salford City, bury) or survive (and I include us, Accy Stanley etc in that).
COVID nearly saw a lot of clubs off and in truth most have not recovered.
The Premier League has no interest in the EFL as was seen for the contempt for the possible regulator (which IMO will never materialise) and a few financial scraps for the 72 below the Premier League to keep them onside. The bottom three of the Premier League won the Championship last year so comfortably that it is embarrassing and Leicester and Leeds should go back at the first attempt, such is the depth of their financial resource vs other clubs. Leicester's bench today had a number of £5m+ players on it and they'll play most Championship clubs this year that can't spend £5m on a player.
For us, we are going to get nothing from the EFL assuming we can get back into it anyway. The FA Cup has slowly been stripped of lucrative replays, Saturday ties and shocks to not upset the Premier League. Since 1992 it is only something like two years in 31 where a team outside the top 8 of the Premier League has managed to win the FA Cup.
It costs about £1.5m to fund losses at this level which we and most clubs don't have. There are clubs like Wrexham, Stockport and Notts County shedding bigger losses but jumping the leagues quicker than they might already.
Our issue is that for years we have all had grumbles but the based expectation is that at least one director would bail the club out financially.
That started with Fred Ratcliffe and his Rolls Royce which guaranteed reelection but others like Brian Kilpatrick, David Kilpatrick, Graham Morris, Chris Dunphy and Andrew Kelly all did that (and probably others that I've omitted to mention)
In return those financially lending money got shares in the club. The Board of the club was a gents club and it cost money to join and was invite only. Broadly £25,000 "joining fee" for the privilege/hassle of being on the Board.
It all changed for me when parties start to sell their shares. Dunphy sold to two Americans investors after he stepped down and then six individuals - including three former Board directors and the two Americans sold to Morton House in 2021.
Those who sold effectively got their "joining fee" back and perhaps made a profit such was the stupid levels of share prices being quoted by Captain Sabotage to Fat Pat.
That mentality put the club into immense peril and it is only down to Andrew Kelly that Morton House didn't get to 50%. If he had buckled we wouldn't be having these debates.
Six new volunteer statutory directors were found on the premise of all hands to the pump but a huge loss of the entire organization including Brian Barry-Murphy who walked out to go to Man City's set-up just before the season started whilst under contract and the club was under transfer embargo.
If that wasn't bad enough the new directors then get dragged through a High Court battle and an EFL investigation both of which concluded about a year ago.
In club terms all wholly unavoidable and IMO contributing to the relegations in 2021 and 2023, the 2021 one had champange opened which tells you all you need to know.
The macro environment of football has changed immeasurably.
We haven't cracked the answer to how to fund an operating loss of £1.5m a year in an environment of no transfer fee or cup run (but accept that we should try) but then expect the Board of the day to stand behind the club financially.
Three directors of the last Board sold out to Morton House and took their money and ran. I've not seen any of them at a Dale game since.
Dunphy I have some sympathy for but he was effectively managed out when he had 9% of the club but he allowed himself to be put in that position by people he had appointed. I firmly think that when the penny dropped that he had sold his shares for cash, others reflected that perhaps they could do the same.
For example, Andrew Kilpatrick used to own 110,000 shares which was converted into a life changing amount of money to most people. None of that money went into the club.
The only way I can see our club and others like Rochdale still being in existence in 2030 is to broadly follow the Exeter model which is:
(1) 50.1% legally owned by the Supporters Trust with the Supporters Trust contributing 8 of the allowed Board of 15 statutory directors
(2) 49.9% owned privately by a maximum of 7 individuals (7% each) which should be Board members.
(3) Each shareholder is responsible underwriting the losses to their given percentage.
(4) Aim to breakeven but accept that is not possible.
(5) Work to make home games a real event in the town and get attendances over 5,000. There are only 23 events of not at Spotland each season and most of the town come out for games like Oldham but don't for the others.
(6) Work to have an Academy where the ethos is to deliberately sell the players further up the chain rather than actually playing them in the first team. At our level the Ethan Brierley's and George Nevitt's are youth players still developing and get kicked off the park. You can't do that in the Premier League any more. What you can do is find talent the Premier League can't see.
(7) Run age group teams from Under 9's to Under 23's all based on volunteers for both men's and women's football.
The blockers to get there as I see them:
(A) The 212,895 shares that were sold to Morton House and then bought by serving directors. Those need buying by the Trust at nil gain/nil loss. Those caught by events didn't sign up for that and don't deserve that given they stopped an unsanctioned change of control from actually happening.
(B) Getting the Trust to 50.1%. There are a couple of ways to solve that which could involve supporters donating their own shares to the Trust or the Trust buying some of those available new ones or some private transactions. The list of big shareholders is publicly available.
(C) People. Most people involved in Rochdale over the years are unpaid volunteers. They do their role and job for love not grief.
At a push the best we can ever expect is to get back to League 1 over time (10 years); the Championship will never be attained and between now and then there will be a lot of damage to many clubs from Man United down who have borrowed vast sums and without TV can't afford to pay them back. I think that clubs like Forest Green and Harrogate will slip back out of the league when their respective owners move on; that's the biggest challenge a club with an owner has.
By 2033 we will be on the verge of a second Middle East FIFA World Cup in 12 years, the Saudi League will be full of the best paid players and the TV rights will all be on demand. I don't think Sky TV will exist in its current form. I don't think the EFL will survive in its current form either and become like the RFL has in rugby league.
Not that any of those matter for our future existence, which is going to have to be more localised. Whether we remain in our current form or end up more like bury, Chester or Darlington's reformed teams remains to be seen.
All IMHO TS and you did ask what I would do! |
Excellent contribution RAFCB.
I agree with most of your analysis, looking at L1 and L2 as they stand financially, it seems to me that the EFL could end up being just the current 24 Championship clubs. give or take half a dozen clubs and ultimately becoming Premiership Division 2
For Clubs like ours, I think our future lies in Regional Associations, a Northern Association of 44-48 clubs and a similar Southern Association. Each run by their own organisations for the benefit of their member clubs. The current National League is the worst of all worlds having little financial clout and a heavy Southern bias which does nothing for crowds and exacerbates expenses. Running its own TV and Internet channels and developing regional advertising to support it and the clubs involved would create interest and additional revenue.
Removing relegation and promotion would ease the financial pressures and and regional cup competitions would add a bit of spice for the fans to enjoy. Maybe its time for the Northern Chairmen to have a little get-together..... |  | | |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 22:58 - Oct 28 with 1596 views | RAFCBLUE |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 22:50 - Oct 28 by D_Alien |
I've made a proposal, and offered my time as a volunteer
As far as standing for a position in the Trust, i'm all too well aware of how that can compromise the ability to speak out, so no thanks (and wouldn't get elected anyway!)
The only disappointment has been the performance of those at the helm and their advisors, who after a brilliant and highly praised start which looked to engage the fanbase fell short of that basic requirement. For absolutely sure, they've put funds in when it was do or die, and they'll always have credit for that - but why then disappoint by withdrawing their engagement with fans?
It's not a "manifesto" by the way - just a simple and expedient proposal. If you have a better one, let's hear it from you... |
I don't have a better one DA, that's why I was asking for your sage like advice.
I've concluded that you're as clueless as me!
At least we are not Reading FC. Their owner wants £70m-£80m and they look like they might go to the wall.
https://footballleagueworld.co.uk/consortiums-response-to-reading-fc-owners-aski
I recall one of a previous board put Reading and Fleetwood on a pedestal as something should RAFC emulate.
He was clueless too! | |
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 23:05 - Oct 28 with 1586 views | D_Alien |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 22:58 - Oct 28 by RAFCBLUE |
I don't have a better one DA, that's why I was asking for your sage like advice.
I've concluded that you're as clueless as me!
At least we are not Reading FC. Their owner wants £70m-£80m and they look like they might go to the wall.
https://footballleagueworld.co.uk/consortiums-response-to-reading-fc-owners-aski
I recall one of a previous board put Reading and Fleetwood on a pedestal as something should RAFC emulate.
He was clueless too! |
I'm clueless about the world of finance (and take no shame from admitting that) but Dale need building again from the bottom up, starting with fan engagement
You call that clueless, do you? Well, that tells me something about you
I'll repeat - the BoD's need to "give us a clue" then those of us who're clueless know what we're faced with, and i don't doubt it'll be an upward struggle. It's been that since i first pushed a Spotland turnstile open nearly 60 years ago
[Post edited 28 Oct 2023 23:10]
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 23:09 - Oct 28 with 1574 views | TVOS1907 |
It's amazing A Newby hasn't been back to comment on this thread that he started.
Oh... |  |
| When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf? |
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 01:40 - Oct 29 with 1479 views | James1980 |
The games on the 18th and 21st November are during the international break so perhaps we could do something to get more folk through the turnstiles for these games. |  |
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 03:15 - Oct 29 with 1428 views | ThreeLions |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 20:34 - Oct 28 by RAFCBLUE |
IMHO TS it depends where you think football is going.
My own view is that there is currently a broadcast war going on for worldwide TV rights which will come to a head in the next decade first in 2024/25 when the Premier League TV deal is up for renewal and then before 2030 when that next Premier League TV deal ends.
This has the values up for grabs - overseas rights are now more valuable than the UK rights:
https://theathletic.com/4240951/2023/08/25/premier-league-tv-rights-how-work-cos
This time Amazon and Disney and other streaming platforms will come in and play vs the traditional Sky and BT/TNT Sports. Amazon have already been dabbling since 2020. Expect to see a shift to on tablet viewing and more on demand viewing for clubs.
The Premier League has 4 billion worldwide viewers on a planet of 7 billion people so if each one of them was prepared to pay one US dollar per broadcast game that is suddenly a huge sum and huge TV market.
The Saudi League is going to have a crack at that TV market and have started by spending $1 billion on players in this window and have committed circa $7 billion to the project already, notwithstanding in the last 10 years the Middle East has built a network of worldwide clubs including Manchester City and Newcastle and all of those are tradeable assets and span most of Europe's top clubs.
We saw a march to that in April 2021 with the failed Euro Super League but that is where I think the game is headed.
In return, UEFA redid the Champions League format from next season which is the first step to a European Super League.
People are not going to games, the next generation of supporters is educated to consume everything on a tablet or smartphone device and it is possible to stream every game at any time of day or night wherever you are in the world. Someone posted earlier they watched our game at Hartlepool today from Brazil.
In English football the last 30 years have seen the widening of the us and them between the Premier League and EFL. There are only six ever presents and I think over 50 teams in the pyramid that have been in the Premier League since inception. For a number of them it became a curse rather than a dream.
The EFL clubs have had one of two options - chase the dream (e.g. Derby County, Reading, Fleetwood Town, Salford City, bury) or survive (and I include us, Accy Stanley etc in that).
COVID nearly saw a lot of clubs off and in truth most have not recovered.
The Premier League has no interest in the EFL as was seen for the contempt for the possible regulator (which IMO will never materialise) and a few financial scraps for the 72 below the Premier League to keep them onside. The bottom three of the Premier League won the Championship last year so comfortably that it is embarrassing and Leicester and Leeds should go back at the first attempt, such is the depth of their financial resource vs other clubs. Leicester's bench today had a number of £5m+ players on it and they'll play most Championship clubs this year that can't spend £5m on a player.
For us, we are going to get nothing from the EFL assuming we can get back into it anyway. The FA Cup has slowly been stripped of lucrative replays, Saturday ties and shocks to not upset the Premier League. Since 1992 it is only something like two years in 31 where a team outside the top 8 of the Premier League has managed to win the FA Cup.
It costs about £1.5m to fund losses at this level which we and most clubs don't have. There are clubs like Wrexham, Stockport and Notts County shedding bigger losses but jumping the leagues quicker than they might already.
Our issue is that for years we have all had grumbles but the based expectation is that at least one director would bail the club out financially.
That started with Fred Ratcliffe and his Rolls Royce which guaranteed reelection but others like Brian Kilpatrick, David Kilpatrick, Graham Morris, Chris Dunphy and Andrew Kelly all did that (and probably others that I've omitted to mention)
In return those financially lending money got shares in the club. The Board of the club was a gents club and it cost money to join and was invite only. Broadly £25,000 "joining fee" for the privilege/hassle of being on the Board.
It all changed for me when parties start to sell their shares. Dunphy sold to two Americans investors after he stepped down and then six individuals - including three former Board directors and the two Americans sold to Morton House in 2021.
Those who sold effectively got their "joining fee" back and perhaps made a profit such was the stupid levels of share prices being quoted by Captain Sabotage to Fat Pat.
That mentality put the club into immense peril and it is only down to Andrew Kelly that Morton House didn't get to 50%. If he had buckled we wouldn't be having these debates.
Six new volunteer statutory directors were found on the premise of all hands to the pump but a huge loss of the entire organization including Brian Barry-Murphy who walked out to go to Man City's set-up just before the season started whilst under contract and the club was under transfer embargo.
If that wasn't bad enough the new directors then get dragged through a High Court battle and an EFL investigation both of which concluded about a year ago.
In club terms all wholly unavoidable and IMO contributing to the relegations in 2021 and 2023, the 2021 one had champange opened which tells you all you need to know.
The macro environment of football has changed immeasurably.
We haven't cracked the answer to how to fund an operating loss of £1.5m a year in an environment of no transfer fee or cup run (but accept that we should try) but then expect the Board of the day to stand behind the club financially.
Three directors of the last Board sold out to Morton House and took their money and ran. I've not seen any of them at a Dale game since.
Dunphy I have some sympathy for but he was effectively managed out when he had 9% of the club but he allowed himself to be put in that position by people he had appointed. I firmly think that when the penny dropped that he had sold his shares for cash, others reflected that perhaps they could do the same.
For example, Andrew Kilpatrick used to own 110,000 shares which was converted into a life changing amount of money to most people. None of that money went into the club.
The only way I can see our club and others like Rochdale still being in existence in 2030 is to broadly follow the Exeter model which is:
(1) 50.1% legally owned by the Supporters Trust with the Supporters Trust contributing 8 of the allowed Board of 15 statutory directors
(2) 49.9% owned privately by a maximum of 7 individuals (7% each) which should be Board members.
(3) Each shareholder is responsible underwriting the losses to their given percentage.
(4) Aim to breakeven but accept that is not possible.
(5) Work to make home games a real event in the town and get attendances over 5,000. There are only 23 events of not at Spotland each season and most of the town come out for games like Oldham but don't for the others.
(6) Work to have an Academy where the ethos is to deliberately sell the players further up the chain rather than actually playing them in the first team. At our level the Ethan Brierley's and George Nevitt's are youth players still developing and get kicked off the park. You can't do that in the Premier League any more. What you can do is find talent the Premier League can't see.
(7) Run age group teams from Under 9's to Under 23's all based on volunteers for both men's and women's football.
The blockers to get there as I see them:
(A) The 212,895 shares that were sold to Morton House and then bought by serving directors. Those need buying by the Trust at nil gain/nil loss. Those caught by events didn't sign up for that and don't deserve that given they stopped an unsanctioned change of control from actually happening.
(B) Getting the Trust to 50.1%. There are a couple of ways to solve that which could involve supporters donating their own shares to the Trust or the Trust buying some of those available new ones or some private transactions. The list of big shareholders is publicly available.
(C) People. Most people involved in Rochdale over the years are unpaid volunteers. They do their role and job for love not grief.
At a push the best we can ever expect is to get back to League 1 over time (10 years); the Championship will never be attained and between now and then there will be a lot of damage to many clubs from Man United down who have borrowed vast sums and without TV can't afford to pay them back. I think that clubs like Forest Green and Harrogate will slip back out of the league when their respective owners move on; that's the biggest challenge a club with an owner has.
By 2033 we will be on the verge of a second Middle East FIFA World Cup in 12 years, the Saudi League will be full of the best paid players and the TV rights will all be on demand. I don't think Sky TV will exist in its current form. I don't think the EFL will survive in its current form either and become like the RFL has in rugby league.
Not that any of those matter for our future existence, which is going to have to be more localised. Whether we remain in our current form or end up more like bury, Chester or Darlington's reformed teams remains to be seen.
All IMHO TS and you did ask what I would do! |
Really can't disagree with any of that RAFCBLUE. Football is heading for a world of armchair supporters even more so than it already is. Clubs at our level will suffer the most as teams like City join super leagues similar to the closed shop of the NFL. All very boring but unfortunately it's the way things will go. |  | | |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 05:00 - Oct 29 with 1399 views | TalkingSutty |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 03:15 - Oct 29 by ThreeLions |
Really can't disagree with any of that RAFCBLUE. Football is heading for a world of armchair supporters even more so than it already is. Clubs at our level will suffer the most as teams like City join super leagues similar to the closed shop of the NFL. All very boring but unfortunately it's the way things will go. |
You see i think the complete opposite of that, i don't think football is heading for a world of armchair supporters with everybody preferring to watch games on their tablets/ mobile phones. I think that scenario could play out for a lot of fans who currently follow Premiership Clubs, especially when the European Super League or similar kicks in. The logistics and expense of following their club will mean they have no other option.
If you look at attendances further down the pyramid you can see that there is still a massive appetite for live football and I think the more the Premiership elite continues to strive towards a European Super League and players in their prime leaving to play in Saudi Arabian Leagues etc the penny will drop for a lot of those fans. The game is being taken away from the working class man at that level and they will look for something else.
All I can see is a really exciting and massive opportunity for lower league clubs to flourish. It needs a complete remodelling though. Regionalisation, knock out competitions, wage caps, rebranding and a complete relaunch as to how we are going to start a fresh without having to rely on monies from the Premiership.
Fans will always seek out live football on Saturday afternoons and rather than watching games on tablets I think they will look at other options, their local clubs. Things need to change though and it needs to be driven by the Chairman and owners of every club from the Championship right down the pyramid. A lot of fans need to take the blinkers off also and open themselves up to change. Traditional rivalries are all well and good until the clubs are no longer there, the Bury scenario tells us that.
So I see the glass as half full with tremendous opportunities ahead for lower league clubs, as they benefit from the Premiership being taken away from the man on the street and all of the greed that involves, people are fed up of it. I could watch a live game on my tablet next weekend but instead will look to find a local non league game to go and watch instead, Radcliffe/ Ramsbottom/ Stalybridge etc..I think that's what more and more people will do in the future and there's no reason why Rochdale can't reset and also look forward to playing football in a restructured exciting new era for English Football..at a sustainable regionalised level.
To just give up and suggest that all lower league clubs will go bust and there is nothing anybody can do about it, as insinuated in RAFCBLUE posts, is akin to throwing in the towel. The Club can be saved but not if we have a Chairman and Directors who fail to communicate, or even worse, see the club going to hell in a hand cart as they all seem to suggest. We need people in the boardroom with a vision and with fight, passion and desire, everybody singing off the same hymn sheet, not just the fans. I understand the circumstances surrounding the recruitment of the current board members though and salute them for stepping up and buying the MH shares. A new mindset is needed though. [Post edited 29 Oct 2023 7:10]
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 06:41 - Oct 29 with 1360 views | D_Alien |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 05:00 - Oct 29 by TalkingSutty |
You see i think the complete opposite of that, i don't think football is heading for a world of armchair supporters with everybody preferring to watch games on their tablets/ mobile phones. I think that scenario could play out for a lot of fans who currently follow Premiership Clubs, especially when the European Super League or similar kicks in. The logistics and expense of following their club will mean they have no other option.
If you look at attendances further down the pyramid you can see that there is still a massive appetite for live football and I think the more the Premiership elite continues to strive towards a European Super League and players in their prime leaving to play in Saudi Arabian Leagues etc the penny will drop for a lot of those fans. The game is being taken away from the working class man at that level and they will look for something else.
All I can see is a really exciting and massive opportunity for lower league clubs to flourish. It needs a complete remodelling though. Regionalisation, knock out competitions, wage caps, rebranding and a complete relaunch as to how we are going to start a fresh without having to rely on monies from the Premiership.
Fans will always seek out live football on Saturday afternoons and rather than watching games on tablets I think they will look at other options, their local clubs. Things need to change though and it needs to be driven by the Chairman and owners of every club from the Championship right down the pyramid. A lot of fans need to take the blinkers off also and open themselves up to change. Traditional rivalries are all well and good until the clubs are no longer there, the Bury scenario tells us that.
So I see the glass as half full with tremendous opportunities ahead for lower league clubs, as they benefit from the Premiership being taken away from the man on the street and all of the greed that involves, people are fed up of it. I could watch a live game on my tablet next weekend but instead will look to find a local non league game to go and watch instead, Radcliffe/ Ramsbottom/ Stalybridge etc..I think that's what more and more people will do in the future and there's no reason why Rochdale can't reset and also look forward to playing football in a restructured exciting new era for English Football..at a sustainable regionalised level.
To just give up and suggest that all lower league clubs will go bust and there is nothing anybody can do about it, as insinuated in RAFCBLUE posts, is akin to throwing in the towel. The Club can be saved but not if we have a Chairman and Directors who fail to communicate, or even worse, see the club going to hell in a hand cart as they all seem to suggest. We need people in the boardroom with a vision and with fight, passion and desire, everybody singing off the same hymn sheet, not just the fans. I understand the circumstances surrounding the recruitment of the current board members though and salute them for stepping up and buying the MH shares. A new mindset is needed though. [Post edited 29 Oct 2023 7:10]
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That's what i was getting at when i mentioned being "sick to death of money men" - people who see the game only through a financial lens.Thanks for taking that much further
We can wail and gnash our teeth, or start doing something practical, preferably via the Trust. Of course the idea for an inventory of volunteer tasks isn't a "manifesto" and it's typical of a "money man" to try to mock it. It's intended as a response to the way Exeter go about things, but in a way suited to Dale. A simple first step that can set at least one ball rolling and provide a sense of purpose rather than helplessness
Calling it "clueless" is an insult to those at Exeter, for instance, for whom it's a lifeline. It could, and will probably need to be part of ours too, along the "reset" lines you so passionately describe TS. We need more like you to contribute, and less from "yesterday's failed money men"
[Post edited 29 Oct 2023 6:53]
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 07:05 - Oct 29 with 1340 views | TalkingSutty |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 06:41 - Oct 29 by D_Alien |
That's what i was getting at when i mentioned being "sick to death of money men" - people who see the game only through a financial lens.Thanks for taking that much further
We can wail and gnash our teeth, or start doing something practical, preferably via the Trust. Of course the idea for an inventory of volunteer tasks isn't a "manifesto" and it's typical of a "money man" to try to mock it. It's intended as a response to the way Exeter go about things, but in a way suited to Dale. A simple first step that can set at least one ball rolling and provide a sense of purpose rather than helplessness
Calling it "clueless" is an insult to those at Exeter, for instance, for whom it's a lifeline. It could, and will probably need to be part of ours too, along the "reset" lines you so passionately describe TS. We need more like you to contribute, and less from "yesterday's failed money men"
[Post edited 29 Oct 2023 6:53]
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Agree completely. You expect leadership to come from the top and their vision and ambitions to align with those of the Supporters Trust, Shareholders and fans but sadly we haven't got that. The fans are too invested in the club from an emotional point of view to just roll over and accept that losing the club Is inevitable, something you would also expect to see from those in the Boardroom.
I would prefer to see some straight talking, cards on the table and an admittance that they've taken the club as far as they can but need to recoup most of the money they have put into the club. Nobody could blame them for that. Be straight with the shareholders and fans and then let's see if we can put some sort of plan together to reimburse them for their shares. We can then look at the bigger picture, what direction the club needs to go in and recruit the right people to go into the Boardroom and show some real leadership. All that can be done as a fan owned club with help from local businessman, sponsorship, grants, community groups, council etc.
To suggest that the only option is to accept that we will probably lose the club or be liquidated isn't acceptable and the ones who are doing it don't belong in the boardroom. We all come together and work as one, that's what we do. I know we can do it because i have first hand experience when it comes to what type of supporters we have at this club, we have a fantastic set of fans and the Supporters Trust is full of them, only they will know if they have been fully embraced by those tasked with running the club. When we all come together as one we can do anything and i think that's the road we all need to now take. We need to rid the club of this 'us and them ' mentality. [Post edited 29 Oct 2023 7:40]
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 07:13 - Oct 29 with 1334 views | D_Alien |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 07:05 - Oct 29 by TalkingSutty |
Agree completely. You expect leadership to come from the top and their vision and ambitions to align with those of the Supporters Trust, Shareholders and fans but sadly we haven't got that. The fans are too invested in the club from an emotional point of view to just roll over and accept that losing the club Is inevitable, something you would also expect to see from those in the Boardroom.
I would prefer to see some straight talking, cards on the table and an admittance that they've taken the club as far as they can but need to recoup most of the money they have put into the club. Nobody could blame them for that. Be straight with the shareholders and fans and then let's see if we can put some sort of plan together to reimburse them for their shares. We can then look at the bigger picture, what direction the club needs to go in and recruit the right people to go into the Boardroom and show some real leadership. All that can be done as a fan owned club with help from local businessman, sponsorship, grants, community groups, council etc.
To suggest that the only option is to accept that we will probably lose the club or be liquidated isn't acceptable and the ones who are doing it don't belong in the boardroom. We all come together and work as one, that's what we do. I know we can do it because i have first hand experience when it comes to what type of supporters we have at this club, we have a fantastic set of fans and the Supporters Trust is full of them, only they will know if they have been fully embraced by those tasked with running the club. When we all come together as one we can do anything and i think that's the road we all need to now take. We need to rid the club of this 'us and them ' mentality. [Post edited 29 Oct 2023 7:40]
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We did something similar in 1844
That's what we do, in Rochdale
[Post edited 29 Oct 2023 7:14]
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 07:21 - Oct 29 with 1325 views | TalkingSutty |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 07:13 - Oct 29 by D_Alien |
We did something similar in 1844
That's what we do, in Rochdale
[Post edited 29 Oct 2023 7:14]
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Well i'm up for it if there is a collective will from everybody. | | | |
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