| When's this Global Warming supposed to be happening? 20:43 - Jul 16 with 15392 views | GloryHunter |
Weather's getting me down now. We were promised vineyards, sunflowers, siestas, the lot. I even had to turn the heating on last night - in July! And don't tell me it's all explained by the "man-made climate change" theory, because it bloody well isn't. The mad greenies told us 20 years ago we'd be frying by now, and they were WRONG. So how come we actually have a Government department of "Energy and CLIMATE CHANGE"? Has there ever before been a government department based on a complete myth - like the department for slaying dragons and unicorns, for example? |  | | |  |
| When's this Global Warming supposed to be happening? on 13:04 - Jul 30 with 941 views | GloryHunter |
I am a scientist, and nobody from the IPCC has ever asked me for my views. Were they to ask me, I would tell them that I no longer believe in man-made global warming. Their "consensus" is based solely on the views of their own selective clique - they do not seek or welcome alternative opinions. | | | |
| When's this Global Warming supposed to be happening? on 13:25 - Jul 30 with 930 views | TheBlob |
| When's this Global Warming supposed to be happening? on 13:04 - Jul 30 by GloryHunter |
I am a scientist, and nobody from the IPCC has ever asked me for my views. Were they to ask me, I would tell them that I no longer believe in man-made global warming. Their "consensus" is based solely on the views of their own selective clique - they do not seek or welcome alternative opinions. |
If you're a scientist you must be dripping with cash from all those environmental bursaries and emoluments.
Lend us a tenner. |  |
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| When's this Global Warming supposed to be happening? on 14:11 - Jul 30 with 923 views | R_from_afar |
That is the average rise, with most of it coming in the last few years. The rise at the poles has been greater.
If climate chaos, bleaching of coral reefs (where about 20% of all fish live) and Amazon and boreal forest dieback are your thing (remember, trees drive rainfall), then you can just sit back and relax because your dreams will soon come true.
RFA
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| "Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1." |
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| When's this Global Warming supposed to be happening? on 14:16 - Jul 30 with 917 views | R_from_afar |
| When's this Global Warming supposed to be happening? on 21:00 - Jul 29 by Cornish_oooRRRR |
That's true but dividing temp rise by time is probably too simplistic. Our rate of CO2 emission is more like exponential. Now is CO2 directly related to temp...
But coming back to my first reply to this post, first page (before the discussion really got started:
'GW = more energy in atmosphere = weirder weather
(or so I'm told. We all believe whatever we want to believe)' |
Higher temperatures mean more energy which means bigger storms, more often.
More CO2 means more acidic oceans which means the physical development of the small organisms at the bottom of the ocean food change is affected.
RFA | |
| "Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1." |
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| When's this Global Warming supposed to be happening? on 14:19 - Jul 30 with 913 views | R_from_afar |
| When's this Global Warming supposed to be happening? on 13:04 - Jul 30 by GloryHunter |
I am a scientist, and nobody from the IPCC has ever asked me for my views. Were they to ask me, I would tell them that I no longer believe in man-made global warming. Their "consensus" is based solely on the views of their own selective clique - they do not seek or welcome alternative opinions. |
In what way is 97% out of 100% a clique?
RFA | |
| "Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1." |
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| When's this Global Warming supposed to be happening? on 14:20 - Jul 30 with 910 views | GloryHunter |
| When's this Global Warming supposed to be happening? on 13:25 - Jul 30 by TheBlob |
If you're a scientist you must be dripping with cash from all those environmental bursaries and emoluments.
Lend us a tenner. |
You mean the backhanders I get from "Big Oil", for sticking to true scientific principles? | | | |
| When's this Global Warming supposed to be happening? on 14:21 - Jul 30 with 908 views | R_from_afar |
They can be exponential for long enough to change our world beyond all recognition. There is more than enough fossil fuel left to make large swathes of our earth uninhabitable.
RFA | |
| "Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1." |
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| When's this Global Warming supposed to be happening? on 14:28 - Jul 30 with 903 views | R_from_afar |
| When's this Global Warming supposed to be happening? on 22:08 - Jul 29 by hoopstilidie |
And many who don't.
It's all guesswork, educated guesswork granted but guesswork all the same.
If it was as clear cut as some on here would like everybody to believe then there wouldn't be any disagreement about it, it isn't so there is. |
Is sea level rise faked, then? How do they do that? There are already climate refugees who have left their islands and more planning to do so.
The latest study (see below) involved a collection of 14.4 million (yes, million) land temperature observations from 44,455 sites across the world dating back to 1753. That really is not guesswork. It was actually part funded by a coal billionnaire who backs the Heartland Institute, a bunch of climate change deniers.
In fact, all the data is being made freely available so sceptics can challenge it if they wish. You can just go to the website and get it.
http://www.businessgreen.com/bg/news/2195100/climate-change-study-forces-sceptic
The disagreement is largely down to vested interested. If you own an oil company, your company's worth is drastically undermined if the world wakes up to the impact of fossil fuels on C)2 levels.
RFA | |
| "Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1." |
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| When's this Global Warming supposed to be happening? on 14:31 - Jul 30 with 1015 views | R_from_afar |
| When's this Global Warming supposed to be happening? on 09:53 - Jul 30 by finney |
my own thought is a simple one we are killing the planet i do not need to see the world turn into a sea to see that i look at the shite we pour into the sky the bombs they test that blow up half an ocean.
People ignore Greenpeace for all the wrong reasons i do not think all they say is proved but if only a tenith of it is we are fecked |
Well said!
RFA | |
| "Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1." |
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| When's this Global Warming supposed to be happening? on 14:35 - Jul 30 with 1011 views | R_from_afar |
| When's this Global Warming supposed to be happening? on 10:59 - Jul 30 by hoopstilidie |
Premise. |
Let's wait until everyone, including the Dail Mail, are 100% convinced. After all, it's not like we're talking about a serious problem. Climate, rainfall, land, food supply - all trivial stuff. Let's wait!
RFA | |
| "Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1." |
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| When's this Global Warming supposed to be happening? on 14:36 - Jul 30 with 1011 views | R_from_afar |
| When's this Global Warming supposed to be happening? on 10:20 - Jul 30 by baz_qpr |
There is an awful lot less disagreement than you think among scientists, its not like its 50/50 or something its more 90/10 and that 10 gets a very loud voice because it suits the commercial and political interests of a group of wealthy people and organisations and are incredibly well funded (the study that is currently being reported and has delivered the "wrong result" is funded by a group set up for funding skeptics)
Many of the original skeptics accept the premise of global warming, accept the premise of it being man made and the debate has moved on to whether the solutions a re carbon output reduction or carbon capture technologies |
97% of climate scientists say CC/GW is manmade. That's your number.
RFA | |
| "Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1." |
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| When's this Global Warming supposed to be happening? on 15:21 - Jul 30 with 986 views | hoopstilidie |
| When's this Global Warming supposed to be happening? on 14:35 - Jul 30 by R_from_afar |
Let's wait until everyone, including the Dail Mail, are 100% convinced. After all, it's not like we're talking about a serious problem. Climate, rainfall, land, food supply - all trivial stuff. Let's wait!
RFA |
Premise.
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| When's this Global Warming supposed to be happening? on 15:23 - Jul 30 with 982 views | hoopstilidie |
| When's this Global Warming supposed to be happening? on 14:36 - Jul 30 by R_from_afar |
97% of climate scientists say CC/GW is manmade. That's your number.
RFA |
No they don't.
That article you keep banging on about, aside from having holes in it you could drive an oil tanker through, did NOT say 97% of climate scientists say CC/GW is manmade. It simply doesn't! | |
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| When's this Global Warming supposed to be happening? on 16:08 - Jul 30 with 974 views | R_from_afar |
| When's this Global Warming supposed to be happening? on 11:55 - Jul 30 by Cornish_oooRRRR |
I agree with this post Clive_A
Point 2 is the crux. Can / dare we risk it? |
1) Global warming is happening
>> Where do I begin? There is so much evidence. Sea level rise (local example: the National Trust has given up protecting Studland Bay from sea level rise), species migration, shorter winters, spring coming earlier, beetles destroying Canadian forests because the winter is no longer cold enough to kill them, vines growing further north, desertification, falling crop yields, altered rainfall patterns, wildfires and drought in Colorado, Texas, California
2) Global warming is problematic with significantly more negative effects than positive effects that are understood properly
>> I could provide a long list but one example of a negative effect is food prices/crop yields. GW has pushed up food prices 20% in a decade and now the US corn harvest, the largest of its type globally, is being jeoparidised by the above average temperatures
3) These problems are great enough for a solution to be sought
>> Things like rainfall and crop yields, to name but two things, are the foundation of civilisation
4) Any potential solution is actually possible to enact
>> The solutions exist. David MacKay, former UK Chief Scientific Officer and Professor of Natural Philosophy in the Department of Physics at the University of Cambridge has written a book (free to download, see http://www.withouthotair.com/ ) which maps out how the UK, and other countries including the US, can successfully switch to the alternatives to fossil fuels.
There are projects out there which are dealing with the issues right now. An example is that there are already functioning power plants which can store solar energy, using molten salt. On one day in May this year, Germany generated 50% of its energy from solar, as another example. Some days, Spain gets over 30% of its energy from windfarms.
5) The cost of the solution would not be better spend on other problems where the money would be better spent
>> Ensuring people have dry land to live on, affordable food and enough water are absolute basics
Half of these are social issues rather than scientific, so saying 90% of scientists agree on something therefore we have to do something about it is bllocks.
>> I don’t know how you are reaching this conclusion about the issues being “social”. I don’t think the occupants of the Carteret Islands, the world’s first GW/CC refugees back in 2007, would regard the issues as “social”.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-503228/The-worlds-climate-change-refugee
The consensus (source: Wikipedia) is that 150-200 million people will be climate change refugees by 2050.
And 90% of scientists certainly don't agree on point 2) anyway.
>> Correct. It’s 97% (of climate scientists)
RFA | |
| "Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1." |
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| When's this Global Warming supposed to be happening? on 16:17 - Jul 30 with 970 views | Cornish_oooRRRR |
I'm in your camp RFA but Clive_A et al have made some valid points
That's me out (waving a truce flag, not surrender) |  |
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| When's this Global Warming supposed to be happening? on 16:32 - Jul 30 with 962 views | TW_R |
| When's this Global Warming supposed to be happening? on 16:08 - Jul 30 by R_from_afar |
1) Global warming is happening
>> Where do I begin? There is so much evidence. Sea level rise (local example: the National Trust has given up protecting Studland Bay from sea level rise), species migration, shorter winters, spring coming earlier, beetles destroying Canadian forests because the winter is no longer cold enough to kill them, vines growing further north, desertification, falling crop yields, altered rainfall patterns, wildfires and drought in Colorado, Texas, California
2) Global warming is problematic with significantly more negative effects than positive effects that are understood properly
>> I could provide a long list but one example of a negative effect is food prices/crop yields. GW has pushed up food prices 20% in a decade and now the US corn harvest, the largest of its type globally, is being jeoparidised by the above average temperatures
3) These problems are great enough for a solution to be sought
>> Things like rainfall and crop yields, to name but two things, are the foundation of civilisation
4) Any potential solution is actually possible to enact
>> The solutions exist. David MacKay, former UK Chief Scientific Officer and Professor of Natural Philosophy in the Department of Physics at the University of Cambridge has written a book (free to download, see http://www.withouthotair.com/ ) which maps out how the UK, and other countries including the US, can successfully switch to the alternatives to fossil fuels.
There are projects out there which are dealing with the issues right now. An example is that there are already functioning power plants which can store solar energy, using molten salt. On one day in May this year, Germany generated 50% of its energy from solar, as another example. Some days, Spain gets over 30% of its energy from windfarms.
5) The cost of the solution would not be better spend on other problems where the money would be better spent
>> Ensuring people have dry land to live on, affordable food and enough water are absolute basics
Half of these are social issues rather than scientific, so saying 90% of scientists agree on something therefore we have to do something about it is bllocks.
>> I don’t know how you are reaching this conclusion about the issues being “social”. I don’t think the occupants of the Carteret Islands, the world’s first GW/CC refugees back in 2007, would regard the issues as “social”.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-503228/The-worlds-climate-change-refugee
The consensus (source: Wikipedia) is that 150-200 million people will be climate change refugees by 2050.
And 90% of scientists certainly don't agree on point 2) anyway.
>> Correct. It’s 97% (of climate scientists)
RFA |
Just a couple of points:-
"vines growing further north" - really? Depends on what type of vines you're talking about. I thought it was a well known fact the Romans had vineyards as far north as Yorkshire 2 thousand years or so ago?
You, or anyone else on this thread, have decided to completely ignore my post on cost. I've pasted it below to save you trawling through the thread. Do you think it would be better to spend the money on saving dying people now, or on theoretical numbers that can't be proved?
Interesting debate.
I think everyone agrees that the climate changes. Some believe it's cyclical and some believe it's man-made.
What I do know is the compliance costs of the Kyoto protocol is conservatively estimated at $150 billion a year. In other words it costs roughly $100,000 to “prevent” just one-billionth of a degree of warming.
So for just $100 trillion, the average global temperature could theoretically be lowered by 1 degree C.
Both global warming skeptics and advocates agree that the potential amount of warming that hypothetically might be avoided through Kyoto Protocol implementation is roughly 0.07 degrees centigrade by the year 2050.
So we could carry on spending billions of dollars a year to attempt to do something that may or may not change future temperatures by a very small amount or we could spend that money on removing 3rd world starvation, alleviating poverty, allowing every child in the world the education they deserve etc. In other words, fix what's wrong now, not what might hypothetically happen in 50 years time.
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| When's this Global Warming supposed to be happening? on 16:49 - Jul 30 with 948 views | kropotkin41 |
| When's this Global Warming supposed to be happening? on 16:32 - Jul 30 by TW_R |
Just a couple of points:-
"vines growing further north" - really? Depends on what type of vines you're talking about. I thought it was a well known fact the Romans had vineyards as far north as Yorkshire 2 thousand years or so ago?
You, or anyone else on this thread, have decided to completely ignore my post on cost. I've pasted it below to save you trawling through the thread. Do you think it would be better to spend the money on saving dying people now, or on theoretical numbers that can't be proved?
Interesting debate.
I think everyone agrees that the climate changes. Some believe it's cyclical and some believe it's man-made.
What I do know is the compliance costs of the Kyoto protocol is conservatively estimated at $150 billion a year. In other words it costs roughly $100,000 to “prevent” just one-billionth of a degree of warming.
So for just $100 trillion, the average global temperature could theoretically be lowered by 1 degree C.
Both global warming skeptics and advocates agree that the potential amount of warming that hypothetically might be avoided through Kyoto Protocol implementation is roughly 0.07 degrees centigrade by the year 2050.
So we could carry on spending billions of dollars a year to attempt to do something that may or may not change future temperatures by a very small amount or we could spend that money on removing 3rd world starvation, alleviating poverty, allowing every child in the world the education they deserve etc. In other words, fix what's wrong now, not what might hypothetically happen in 50 years time.
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Your argument doesn't stand up. The cost of doing something about climate change is next to nothing compared to what is going to happen if the Earth suffers a 2C average warming; more than that and the investment of $150 billion a year to avoid catastrophe looks like peanuts.
Secondly, the investment to avoid catastrophic climate change might very well - if handled properly - help us all, and the "Natural World" in many other ways. You might look at alternative energy in this respect, but also public transport, ecological building, ecological agriculture and food policy.
Let's try spending the world's entire budget for war on, how might we put it, planetary stewardship and human civilisation; your figures look ridiculous when taken in this context. |  |
| ‘morbid curiosity about where this is all going’ |
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| When's this Global Warming supposed to be happening? on 17:12 - Jul 30 with 930 views | Lewes_r |
This thread has descended into a giant bowl of spaghetti bolognese .. there are so many different problems being used to answer a question that most of us cant quite remember?
help |  |
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| When's this Global Warming supposed to be happening? on 17:14 - Jul 30 with 927 views | TW_R |
| When's this Global Warming supposed to be happening? on 16:49 - Jul 30 by kropotkin41 |
Your argument doesn't stand up. The cost of doing something about climate change is next to nothing compared to what is going to happen if the Earth suffers a 2C average warming; more than that and the investment of $150 billion a year to avoid catastrophe looks like peanuts.
Secondly, the investment to avoid catastrophic climate change might very well - if handled properly - help us all, and the "Natural World" in many other ways. You might look at alternative energy in this respect, but also public transport, ecological building, ecological agriculture and food policy.
Let's try spending the world's entire budget for war on, how might we put it, planetary stewardship and human civilisation; your figures look ridiculous when taken in this context. |
"Your argument doesn't stand up. The cost of doing something about climate change is next to nothing compared to what is going to happen if the Earth suffers a 2C average warming;"
Eh? I'm not arguing. I'm just pointing out that a lot of money will be spent on something that may or may not happen, when we can use that money for something else now. It appears that your argument is completely flawed as you use the word "if", inferring that you don't know. Which of course, you don't. It's quite an expensive "if" to get wrong. | | | |
| When's this Global Warming supposed to be happening? on 17:19 - Jul 30 with 920 views | kropotkin41 |
Hmmm, well it comes down to being pretty well read, respecting good science and knowing enough about the Earth and natural history to take a pretty good guess about what will happen with even such an apparently minor increase in average global temperature.
You might have a glance at 'Six Degrees' by Mark Lynas, or 'The Last Generation' by Fred Pearce. On the other hand, you might just have a think about just what proportion of the world's population lives almost at sea level; or just how dependent we have all become on a very limited range of crops that in turn rely on really quite a narrow range of weather conditions (linked closely to climate). | |
| ‘morbid curiosity about where this is all going’ |
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| When's this Global Warming supposed to be happening? on 17:32 - Jul 30 with 911 views | TheBlob |
You're still doing it aren't you?
Symptoms not causes. | |
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| When's this Global Warming supposed to be happening? on 17:38 - Jul 30 with 905 views | R_from_afar |
Two studies indicate it's 97% of climate scientists: Doran 2009 and Anderson 2010.
RFA | |
| "Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1." |
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| When's this Global Warming supposed to be happening? on 17:39 - Jul 30 with 903 views | R_from_afar |
No, it's 97% of *climate* scientists, not *all* scientists. I never claimed it was all scientists.
RFA | |
| "Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1." |
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| When's this Global Warming supposed to be happening? on 17:41 - Jul 30 with 901 views | R_from_afar |
| When's this Global Warming supposed to be happening? on 15:23 - Jul 30 by hoopstilidie |
No they don't.
That article you keep banging on about, aside from having holes in it you could drive an oil tanker through, did NOT say 97% of climate scientists say CC/GW is manmade. It simply doesn't! |
Here's the source, two studies.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:97%25_of_Climate_Scientists_Confirm_Anthroprog
RFA | |
| "Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1." |
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