| Russian thread 15:35 - Oct 2 with 18922 views | Sirjohnalot |
Hi all
I’ve taken the decision to ban Controversial Jack and deleted the thread.
This was my decision, I tried to keep the debate up for as long as possible but it got increasingly bizarre and for the good of the site, I removed it.
My decision, any criticism is on me not Keith. |  | | |  |
| Russian thread on 15:14 - Oct 3 with 1643 views | Scotia |
| Russian thread on 23:06 - Oct 2 by Brynmill_Jack |
If you think the mainstream media isn’t controlled - how come the truth is now coming out about the Covid vaccines after such heinous suppression of any opposing view? Come on I’m dying to hear this . |
I'm dying to hear the truth about the Covid vaccines? |  | | |
| Russian thread on 16:48 - Oct 3 with 1579 views | Boundy |
| Russian thread on 15:14 - Oct 3 by Scotia |
I'm dying to hear the truth about the Covid vaccines? |
yes but whos truth would it be ? | |
| "In a free society, the State is the servant of the people—not the master." |
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| Russian thread on 17:24 - Oct 3 with 1551 views | Sirjohnalot |
The wonderful irony of my posting about getting rid of a conspiracy thread turning into another one about vaccines.
As has been asked many many times.
Please stop the Covid/Russia conspiracies ! Many site will just ban you.
You know the reasons why people have been asked not to do it. You know about the charity partners, you know about how posts can be shared elsewhere.
Debates have been so good on here recently, please don't spoil it.
I am trying my best to keep freedom of speech but it does not come without consequences. | | | |
| Russian thread on 18:06 - Oct 3 with 1523 views | Catullus |
| Russian thread on 17:24 - Oct 3 by Sirjohnalot |
The wonderful irony of my posting about getting rid of a conspiracy thread turning into another one about vaccines.
As has been asked many many times.
Please stop the Covid/Russia conspiracies ! Many site will just ban you.
You know the reasons why people have been asked not to do it. You know about the charity partners, you know about how posts can be shared elsewhere.
Debates have been so good on here recently, please don't spoil it.
I am trying my best to keep freedom of speech but it does not come without consequences. |
Thing is John, whie I understand Keith's reasons, if we're not allowed to talk about things that are on the news practically every day, how is it freedom of speech?
What will we be stopped from debating next? | |
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| Russian thread on 18:40 - Oct 3 with 1485 views | Sirjohnalot |
| Russian thread on 18:06 - Oct 3 by Catullus |
Thing is John, whie I understand Keith's reasons, if we're not allowed to talk about things that are on the news practically every day, how is it freedom of speech?
What will we be stopped from debating next? |
There is a huge amount to be talked about on here, which people do everyday, but I think protecting Keith's charity is a lot more important than suggested limiting freedom of speech. Try going on twitter or facebook and putting forth anti vaccines and pro Kremlin speech and see how long you last.
Some of CJ's posts were dreadful. I let it go as much as I could but the atmosphere was getting more and more toxic.
It is not really asking for much to respect the requests to protect the charity site.is it really ?
I've made mistake in the past by removing things or not removing things and I've been wrong.
I do not believe I am wrong here. You would not believe the amount of messages I get asking/demanding me to remove things, ban people. Accusing me of having favourites, banning people, not banning people, allowing posts, not allowing posts. I do not let any of that influence people folk may not like it, but whatever I do, I do for reasons that I believe are correct | | | |
| Russian thread on 19:07 - Oct 3 with 1457 views | Catullus |
| Russian thread on 18:40 - Oct 3 by Sirjohnalot |
There is a huge amount to be talked about on here, which people do everyday, but I think protecting Keith's charity is a lot more important than suggested limiting freedom of speech. Try going on twitter or facebook and putting forth anti vaccines and pro Kremlin speech and see how long you last.
Some of CJ's posts were dreadful. I let it go as much as I could but the atmosphere was getting more and more toxic.
It is not really asking for much to respect the requests to protect the charity site.is it really ?
I've made mistake in the past by removing things or not removing things and I've been wrong.
I do not believe I am wrong here. You would not believe the amount of messages I get asking/demanding me to remove things, ban people. Accusing me of having favourites, banning people, not banning people, allowing posts, not allowing posts. I do not let any of that influence people folk may not like it, but whatever I do, I do for reasons that I believe are correct |
Hang on now, you think protecting Keith's charity is more important than freedom of speech? REALLY? That is a massive debate in itself.
Freedom of speech is a cornerstone of our democracy, the right to have an opinion is protected by law yet these days we see a lot of cancel culture. Those social networks you mentioned have had loads of critiism for allowing all sorts of dreadful stuff, like the things that girl Molly saw before she killed herself. I'm not sure they are a good example.
I would believe the requests you get, you were openly accused by someone of having favourites and were often told by one certain poster how to do your job. Of course that poster is now banned, ironically.
If one charity is more important than freedom of speech then we really are in a bad place.
Have you ever heard this, attributed to Evelyn Beatrice Hall, "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." I'm sure an educated person such as yourself must have. Yet now freedom of speech is subjugated because a few people dont like what's being said? That sir, is a very slippery slope. | |
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| Russian thread on 19:09 - Oct 3 with 1449 views | KeithHaynes |
| Russian thread on 19:07 - Oct 3 by Catullus |
Hang on now, you think protecting Keith's charity is more important than freedom of speech? REALLY? That is a massive debate in itself.
Freedom of speech is a cornerstone of our democracy, the right to have an opinion is protected by law yet these days we see a lot of cancel culture. Those social networks you mentioned have had loads of critiism for allowing all sorts of dreadful stuff, like the things that girl Molly saw before she killed herself. I'm not sure they are a good example.
I would believe the requests you get, you were openly accused by someone of having favourites and were often told by one certain poster how to do your job. Of course that poster is now banned, ironically.
If one charity is more important than freedom of speech then we really are in a bad place.
Have you ever heard this, attributed to Evelyn Beatrice Hall, "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." I'm sure an educated person such as yourself must have. Yet now freedom of speech is subjugated because a few people dont like what's being said? That sir, is a very slippery slope. |
I’ve always said there are ways of saying everything, no matter the subject.
Thats the point. |  |
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| Russian thread on 19:14 - Oct 3 with 1429 views | shingle |
| Russian thread on 18:06 - Oct 3 by Catullus |
Thing is John, whie I understand Keith's reasons, if we're not allowed to talk about things that are on the news practically every day, how is it freedom of speech?
What will we be stopped from debating next? |
Problem with you Cat is that you are in denial about having a bit of a crush on Giorgia Meloni. | | | |
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| Russian thread on 19:20 - Oct 3 with 1401 views | Catullus |
| Russian thread on 19:14 - Oct 3 by shingle |
Problem with you Cat is that you are in denial about having a bit of a crush on Giorgia Meloni. |
Are you saying that defending freedom of speech is a far right thing? That's obviously ludicrous and a post very obviosly meant to stir the pot.
You must try harder.
PS, I looked her up, she's not bad looking! | |
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| Russian thread on 19:46 - Oct 3 with 1376 views | Sirjohnalot |
| Russian thread on 19:07 - Oct 3 by Catullus |
Hang on now, you think protecting Keith's charity is more important than freedom of speech? REALLY? That is a massive debate in itself.
Freedom of speech is a cornerstone of our democracy, the right to have an opinion is protected by law yet these days we see a lot of cancel culture. Those social networks you mentioned have had loads of critiism for allowing all sorts of dreadful stuff, like the things that girl Molly saw before she killed herself. I'm not sure they are a good example.
I would believe the requests you get, you were openly accused by someone of having favourites and were often told by one certain poster how to do your job. Of course that poster is now banned, ironically.
If one charity is more important than freedom of speech then we really are in a bad place.
Have you ever heard this, attributed to Evelyn Beatrice Hall, "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." I'm sure an educated person such as yourself must have. Yet now freedom of speech is subjugated because a few people dont like what's being said? That sir, is a very slippery slope. |
There are always limits on freedom of speech, you cannot walk down the street and racially abuse someone or eg come on here and accuse someone of being a sex offender. Freedom of speech is protected by law, to an extent . Do you think a person would have a right to walk into a Jewish area with Nazi memorabilia and not expect to be arrested ?
Are you saying that those things that Molly saw should not have been on there ? There should not be links to suicide sites or stories ? That, in itself is a restriction.
I appreciate these are extreme reactions but the purpose of this site is to help the charity. I have no issues outside a site like this in discussing anything and everything, in a pub, on the train, in the football, but I do not see how anyone can think a site which is set up to aid a charity should take second fiddle people posting on a forum and posting things which could, if shared outside this site (anti vaccines, pro Kremlin propaganda) could do a lot of harm to this site and more importantly the partnerships with the charity.
I'd say with respect, I very rarely remove things, the Russia thread went on for many pages, and got more and more out there.
If this site was not tied in with charities, there'd not be an issues, let people rip each other apart, the fact remains it is and to me, that is the priority.
This has not come from Keith at all, it is me, and me alone but I am sure we are all aware of things from this page being shared | | | |
| Russian thread on 22:32 - Oct 3 with 1317 views | deanscfc |
| Russian thread on 18:06 - Oct 3 by Catullus |
Thing is John, whie I understand Keith's reasons, if we're not allowed to talk about things that are on the news practically every day, how is it freedom of speech?
What will we be stopped from debating next? |
I don't understand why people think freedom of speech means people can say absolutely anything they want. That's not how it works. There have always been limits to freedom of speech/expression. Go to Poland or Germany and try to wear a swastika or deny the holocaust, stand in the street here and shout some racist or homophobic abuse out and see how long it takes you to get arrested.
Our laws state that hate speech is a limit to freedom of speech and also speech which affects national security is limited too. The legislation is out there.
While it might not currently be a crime to spout Kremlin propaganda in the UK I would argue that its got to a point now where it should be. The war crimes are too obvious to deny, the Kremlin lines are too easy to disprove and we know the Kremlin spends a lot of money to put these lines out there. Russia considers us the 'enemy' and they effectively are our enemy (only today the Russian embassy to the UK was basically threatening nuclear war on Twitter).
Furthermore, private websites are allowed to make their own rules within the law.
CJ was deliberately spreading the most blatant Kremlin propaganda on here. It was tasteless and nasty (trying to avoid using the word evil). That individual wasn't interested in 'debate'. Only on denying any Russian war crimes (even where evidence was/is irrefutable) and doing what so many Kremlin propagandists do which was lie about the causes of war (either because they're paid or because they have some other motive like politics).
Another poster here does similar, only very slightly less blatantly. Very slightly (in my view).
None of that stuff is based on fact or about honest debate. It was/is just about spreading lies at a time when people are dying because of those same lies. [Post edited 3 Oct 2022 22:37]
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| Russian thread on 23:12 - Oct 3 with 1284 views | Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
It is strangely fun picking out the massive black holes in their stupidly idiotic arguments though. Conversing with them is like watching that documentary on Jeffrey Dahmer. You find everything he did completely abhorrent but it’s absolutely fascinating to try and understand their motivations. |  |
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| Russian thread on 00:29 - Oct 4 with 1231 views | DJack |
| Russian thread on 22:39 - Oct 2 by Brynmill_Jack |
So no alternative opinions are welcome in the Swansea Independent echo chamber? That doesn’t surprise me but let’s just state a few facts .
1. NATO encroachment into Eastern Europe. Michael Gorbachev was promised that NATO “would not shift one foot eastwards on condition that the eastern block disbanded along with the Soviet Union.
He was lied to. Irrefutable fact.
2. Russia has never harboured any hostility towards Ukraine - however after the 2014 revolution (sponsored by the likes of Victoria Nuland) presented a real danger to Russian speaking or Ethnic Russian people throughout Ukraine. The Donbass felt this after being continually shelled for 8 years (also irrefutable ).
If this means debate is shut down then that is very sad . The Covid argument was neatly shut down but the vaccines have been found to be not what they seemed to be.
What if this is an act of NATO aggression which has prompted a Russian reaction? Does anyone really believe the west, recent history considered - is whiter than white? |
Except that Gorbachov has gone on record to state that was not true...but you keep pushing a fallacy. |  |
| It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan |
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| Russian thread on 00:34 - Oct 4 with 1229 views | DJack |
| Russian thread on 19:07 - Oct 3 by Catullus |
Hang on now, you think protecting Keith's charity is more important than freedom of speech? REALLY? That is a massive debate in itself.
Freedom of speech is a cornerstone of our democracy, the right to have an opinion is protected by law yet these days we see a lot of cancel culture. Those social networks you mentioned have had loads of critiism for allowing all sorts of dreadful stuff, like the things that girl Molly saw before she killed herself. I'm not sure they are a good example.
I would believe the requests you get, you were openly accused by someone of having favourites and were often told by one certain poster how to do your job. Of course that poster is now banned, ironically.
If one charity is more important than freedom of speech then we really are in a bad place.
Have you ever heard this, attributed to Evelyn Beatrice Hall, "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." I'm sure an educated person such as yourself must have. Yet now freedom of speech is subjugated because a few people dont like what's being said? That sir, is a very slippery slope. |
Keiths site has no duty to protect Freedom of speech.
Keith's site is not precluding your freedom of speech - he can however demand that you take that right elsewhere | |
| It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan |
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| Russian thread on 15:11 - Oct 4 with 1127 views | Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
| Russian thread on 00:34 - Oct 4 by DJack |
Keiths site has no duty to protect Freedom of speech.
Keith's site is not precluding your freedom of speech - he can however demand that you take that right elsewhere |
Freedom of speech also doesn’t include the right to openly lie. I’m all up for some hard hitting debates where people of opposite sides put forward their well thought out and considered opinions but the BS spewed by Ceejay and the BJ on this issue has been frankly ludicrous. | |
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| Russian thread on 15:33 - Oct 4 with 1112 views | onehunglow |
| Russian thread on 20:15 - Oct 2 by trampie |
I think all people are equal, not a racist bone in my body. |
Including English people who move into Wales to buy a second home and e pess no wish to,learn Welsh. | |
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| Russian thread on 17:54 - Oct 4 with 1060 views | felixstowe_jack |
| Russian thread on 15:33 - Oct 4 by onehunglow |
Including English people who move into Wales to buy a second home and e pess no wish to,learn Welsh. |
Including most Welsh born people who have no wish to learn Welsh. | |
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| Russian thread on 18:18 - Oct 4 with 1035 views | shingle |
| Russian thread on 19:20 - Oct 3 by Catullus |
Are you saying that defending freedom of speech is a far right thing? That's obviously ludicrous and a post very obviosly meant to stir the pot.
You must try harder.
PS, I looked her up, she's not bad looking! |
What are you babbling on about freedom of speech and far right stuff for i just said you have a crush on her which is blatantly obvious, the just looked her up comment was funny tho, you randy bugger. | | | |
| Russian thread on 18:20 - Oct 4 with 1029 views | union_jack |
| Russian thread on 19:20 - Oct 3 by Catullus |
Are you saying that defending freedom of speech is a far right thing? That's obviously ludicrous and a post very obviosly meant to stir the pot.
You must try harder.
PS, I looked her up, she's not bad looking! |
Georgia on one side, Liz on the other. Heaven😠|  |
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| Russian thread on 18:26 - Oct 4 with 1015 views | Dr_Winston |
| Russian thread on 23:12 - Oct 3 by Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
It is strangely fun picking out the massive black holes in their stupidly idiotic arguments though. Conversing with them is like watching that documentary on Jeffrey Dahmer. You find everything he did completely abhorrent but it’s absolutely fascinating to try and understand their motivations. |
You'd have a field day with Roger Waters.
https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-features/roger-waters-ukrainian-kill-li
He's a perfect example of what I mentioned earlier in the thread though. A hard left type so obsessed with defending the idea of Russia that they're completely oblivious to what Russia has become.
These people hate the West so much they will support anyone against it. Quite often they'll be broadly anti-Semitic about it whilst disguising that as anti-Capitalism or anti-Israelism. |  |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| Russian thread on 18:45 - Oct 4 with 1001 views | Catullus |
| Russian thread on 22:32 - Oct 3 by deanscfc |
I don't understand why people think freedom of speech means people can say absolutely anything they want. That's not how it works. There have always been limits to freedom of speech/expression. Go to Poland or Germany and try to wear a swastika or deny the holocaust, stand in the street here and shout some racist or homophobic abuse out and see how long it takes you to get arrested.
Our laws state that hate speech is a limit to freedom of speech and also speech which affects national security is limited too. The legislation is out there.
While it might not currently be a crime to spout Kremlin propaganda in the UK I would argue that its got to a point now where it should be. The war crimes are too obvious to deny, the Kremlin lines are too easy to disprove and we know the Kremlin spends a lot of money to put these lines out there. Russia considers us the 'enemy' and they effectively are our enemy (only today the Russian embassy to the UK was basically threatening nuclear war on Twitter).
Furthermore, private websites are allowed to make their own rules within the law.
CJ was deliberately spreading the most blatant Kremlin propaganda on here. It was tasteless and nasty (trying to avoid using the word evil). That individual wasn't interested in 'debate'. Only on denying any Russian war crimes (even where evidence was/is irrefutable) and doing what so many Kremlin propagandists do which was lie about the causes of war (either because they're paid or because they have some other motive like politics).
Another poster here does similar, only very slightly less blatantly. Very slightly (in my view).
None of that stuff is based on fact or about honest debate. It was/is just about spreading lies at a time when people are dying because of those same lies. [Post edited 3 Oct 2022 22:37]
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Sorry but that is a complete cop out. I am not arguing that some comments shouldn't be removed, it's not about that.
The fact is there are subjects we are not allowed to mention, we cannot debate things that are on the news every day.
Hate speech is not allowed but if I were to start a thread about the benefits of the latest vaccine it would automatically be removed even if there was nothing dubious or hateful in it.
I was as busy as anybody else shouting down the disgusting things Contro and Brynnie were spouting. I'm not suggesting in any way that those posters should have been allowed to continue with their vile comments about Ukraine.
Once you start telling people they cannot mention subjects, like vaccines, then where does it end? What is next to be cancelled? The quoted post makes it sound like I am supporting CJ when it is anything but that, he deserved what he got and honestly, any suggestion that what I am saying here is in support of CJ is only worthy of scorn.
I'll make it easy, just ban me. It's not a subject I'll give up on. Free speech shoould absolutely be protected while all hate speech should be dealt with appropriately.
Wanting to discuss a subject sensibly is not hate speech yet still, it is banned. | |
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| Russian thread on 19:45 - Oct 4 with 973 views | Sirjohnalot |
| Russian thread on 18:45 - Oct 4 by Catullus |
Sorry but that is a complete cop out. I am not arguing that some comments shouldn't be removed, it's not about that.
The fact is there are subjects we are not allowed to mention, we cannot debate things that are on the news every day.
Hate speech is not allowed but if I were to start a thread about the benefits of the latest vaccine it would automatically be removed even if there was nothing dubious or hateful in it.
I was as busy as anybody else shouting down the disgusting things Contro and Brynnie were spouting. I'm not suggesting in any way that those posters should have been allowed to continue with their vile comments about Ukraine.
Once you start telling people they cannot mention subjects, like vaccines, then where does it end? What is next to be cancelled? The quoted post makes it sound like I am supporting CJ when it is anything but that, he deserved what he got and honestly, any suggestion that what I am saying here is in support of CJ is only worthy of scorn.
I'll make it easy, just ban me. It's not a subject I'll give up on. Free speech shoould absolutely be protected while all hate speech should be dealt with appropriately.
Wanting to discuss a subject sensibly is not hate speech yet still, it is banned. |
There is absolutely no reason to ban you. I disagree with you but you have put your point across very well, arguing properly and persuasively.
Can you not see at all the need to protect the integrity of the site against anti vaccine posts which could be very dangerous if people follow it, and could theoretically land the site in trouble.
I’ve no issue at all in debating this with you and I’ve no problem whatsoever if you completely disagree with me and call me a tyrant, I’ve been called worse in the past and I’m sure I will in the future.
Of coursw free speech should be protected but so should people’s business interests (this site)
Again this is my doing not Keith’s
This post has been edited by an administrator | | | |
| Russian thread on 21:17 - Oct 4 with 913 views | deanscfc |
| Russian thread on 18:45 - Oct 4 by Catullus |
Sorry but that is a complete cop out. I am not arguing that some comments shouldn't be removed, it's not about that.
The fact is there are subjects we are not allowed to mention, we cannot debate things that are on the news every day.
Hate speech is not allowed but if I were to start a thread about the benefits of the latest vaccine it would automatically be removed even if there was nothing dubious or hateful in it.
I was as busy as anybody else shouting down the disgusting things Contro and Brynnie were spouting. I'm not suggesting in any way that those posters should have been allowed to continue with their vile comments about Ukraine.
Once you start telling people they cannot mention subjects, like vaccines, then where does it end? What is next to be cancelled? The quoted post makes it sound like I am supporting CJ when it is anything but that, he deserved what he got and honestly, any suggestion that what I am saying here is in support of CJ is only worthy of scorn.
I'll make it easy, just ban me. It's not a subject I'll give up on. Free speech shoould absolutely be protected while all hate speech should be dealt with appropriately.
Wanting to discuss a subject sensibly is not hate speech yet still, it is banned. |
"I'm not suggesting in any way that those posters should have been allowed to continue with their vile comments about Ukraine."
Honestly then I'm not sure what your post was about. | | | |
| Russian thread on 21:35 - Oct 4 with 888 views | Dr_Winston |
It should be possible to have a grown up debate on the entire Covid situation, including vaccination without locking threads or deleting them. All you'll need to do is prohibit the moonbats from posting on them (or any others). Same with Ukraine.
There have been people capable of questioning the official approach to Coronavirus without descending into the lunacy of the anti-vax movement and they should be allowed to do so. | |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| Russian thread on 22:02 - Oct 4 with 843 views | Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
| Russian thread on 21:35 - Oct 4 by Dr_Winston |
It should be possible to have a grown up debate on the entire Covid situation, including vaccination without locking threads or deleting them. All you'll need to do is prohibit the moonbats from posting on them (or any others). Same with Ukraine.
There have been people capable of questioning the official approach to Coronavirus without descending into the lunacy of the anti-vax movement and they should be allowed to do so. |
Yes there’s a massive difference between informed adult debate and copying and pasting completely batshit crazy nonsense from the dark web. | |
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