| The Tories Are Bonkers! 08:51 - Dec 12 with 45471 views | BostonR |
Have been in the US since the summer and arrived back this week and going to the game on Sat.
I have watched the carnage in the US political system, but that was evened-out in the mid-term elections. Watching the madness this morning, it looks like a Tory coup by the ERG and other right-wing nut-cases.
I am no Tory, but May has to see them off before they throw this country under the bus! |  | | |  |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 16:18 - Dec 14 with 1967 views | BasingstokeR |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 14:56 - Dec 14 by Sharpy36 |
We had clear definitions first time round regarding leaving the CU, SM and the end to the jurisdiction of the ECJ. That came from both sides of the debate. Leave ment leave that`s what was clear to at least all those i know who voted the same way. The muddying of the waters has come from one side only, the losers side. [Post edited 14 Dec 2018 15:05]
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"We had clear definitions first time round regarding leaving the CU, SM and the end to the jurisdiction of the ECJ"
"The muddying of the waters has come from one side only, the losers side. "
You either have to do large mental contortions or have your head in the sand to believe/say stuff like this. |  | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 16:21 - Dec 14 with 1950 views | Sharpy36 |
Care to explain further ? |  |
| 'You didn't know that was wrong, but now you do. If you do it again, I'll know you are doing it on purpose.' |
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 16:38 - Dec 14 with 1901 views | Cliff |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 16:21 - Dec 14 by Sharpy36 |
Care to explain further ? |
I think you'll find I already did in a previous reply. |  | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 16:38 - Dec 14 with 1897 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 16:11 - Dec 14 by Sharpy36 |
What i have been hearing and reading about recently regarding this whole argument that a lot of Oldies having died off since 2016 has really got under my skin, and imo those who are pushing that narrative are doing the second referendum cause more harm than good.
As for taking me serious, do so when it comes to Brexit as i would suggest this whole situation has got people more in tune with politics than ever before, and for me that`s a good thing, although saying that, it`s all starting to turn the other way now. It`s a bloody mess. |
It's only demography. It's true whether said by someone voting Leave or Remain. I wouldn't take it personally. |  | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 16:44 - Dec 14 with 1886 views | hopphoops |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 14:55 - Dec 14 by easthertsr |
A second referendum could easily have a different outcome without any single voter changing their mind. Since 2016 many older, largely leave voters will have passed away, at the same many teens, largely remain voters will have become 18. IThis difference in the demographic could be crucial to the result. |
Unless the same number of 53 year old remainers have woken up one day as 54 year old leavers. |  |
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 16:57 - Dec 14 with 1856 views | Sharpy36 |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 15:08 - Dec 14 by Cliff |
I'm not sure you and Loftboy being clear in your heads counts as proof that the definitions were clear in themselves. The fact that neither political party, or indeed the posters on this thread, seem to to be able to agree what was leaving actually meant I don't think you can justify your claim of clear definitions. |
The definitions were not my interpretations of what i thought during the campaign and to this day, they were clear declarations from both remain and leave campaigners. If you wish for me to trawl youtube for actual footage then i will happily do so, as it`s there for all to see. As for muddying the waters that refers to the "soft/hard Brexit" slogans, which hard as i try can`t remember seeing on my voting card, perhaps i should have PTO to where the if we lose, we`ll keep going until you thick racist plebs finally vote how you should have first time round. | |
| 'You didn't know that was wrong, but now you do. If you do it again, I'll know you are doing it on purpose.' |
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 17:04 - Dec 14 with 1834 views | hopphoops |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 16:57 - Dec 14 by Sharpy36 |
The definitions were not my interpretations of what i thought during the campaign and to this day, they were clear declarations from both remain and leave campaigners. If you wish for me to trawl youtube for actual footage then i will happily do so, as it`s there for all to see. As for muddying the waters that refers to the "soft/hard Brexit" slogans, which hard as i try can`t remember seeing on my voting card, perhaps i should have PTO to where the if we lose, we`ll keep going until you thick racist plebs finally vote how you should have first time round. |
Don't get me wrong, I think a clean Brexit is a massively bad idea, but I agree that remainers are punching themselves in the face by trying to persuade leavers that it wasn't what they voted for. | |
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 17:04 - Dec 14 with 1832 views | Cliff |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 16:57 - Dec 14 by Sharpy36 |
The definitions were not my interpretations of what i thought during the campaign and to this day, they were clear declarations from both remain and leave campaigners. If you wish for me to trawl youtube for actual footage then i will happily do so, as it`s there for all to see. As for muddying the waters that refers to the "soft/hard Brexit" slogans, which hard as i try can`t remember seeing on my voting card, perhaps i should have PTO to where the if we lose, we`ll keep going until you thick racist plebs finally vote how you should have first time round. |
... and I bet that I or others can find other clips where different interpretations were given by both sides.
So I say again just because you are clear in your mind what you THOUGHT you were voting for, and can find a clip to support that view, doesn't mean everyone else saw the same clips or had accepted the same definitions as you. [Post edited 14 Dec 2018 17:05]
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 17:13 - Dec 14 with 1813 views | BasingstokeR |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 16:57 - Dec 14 by Sharpy36 |
The definitions were not my interpretations of what i thought during the campaign and to this day, they were clear declarations from both remain and leave campaigners. If you wish for me to trawl youtube for actual footage then i will happily do so, as it`s there for all to see. As for muddying the waters that refers to the "soft/hard Brexit" slogans, which hard as i try can`t remember seeing on my voting card, perhaps i should have PTO to where the if we lose, we`ll keep going until you thick racist plebs finally vote how you should have first time round. |
Hmmm no it seems more like your personal interpretations from the parts of a huge plethora of information available. There were official campaigns, but there weren't even just those campaigns influencing people.
Could you point me to your clear definitions on perhaps
the Official Vote Leave website here; http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/why_vote_leave.html
or StongerIn website... here: https://www.strongerin.co.uk
Or maybe in the much maligned pre-campaign government leaflet here;
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attac
Your 'clear definitions' will be front and centre of all these and clearly stated if they exist rather than having to trawl YouTube for some evidence.
Isn't it more - and what we're seeing the outcomes of since the 2016 ref; that the Leave vote was/is a coalition of people - some of which want or would be happy with some quite drastically different outcomes (Norway, Switzerland, Canada, No Deal with or without as many pluses as you feel like), that could all vote Leave together because it was left open to interpretation (on purpose). | | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 17:17 - Dec 14 with 1808 views | Sharpy36 |
That all depends on how much time and effort we gave to the whole Brexit discussion then and now. If chief of remain David cameron and his side kick Osbourne stood up and said that not only leaving the EU would mean leaving the SM and CU that he and his government would carry out the will of the people to the tee.
That was to Cliff. [Post edited 14 Dec 2018 17:19]
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| 'You didn't know that was wrong, but now you do. If you do it again, I'll know you are doing it on purpose.' |
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 17:29 - Dec 14 with 1786 views | Cliff |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 17:17 - Dec 14 by Sharpy36 |
That all depends on how much time and effort we gave to the whole Brexit discussion then and now. If chief of remain David cameron and his side kick Osbourne stood up and said that not only leaving the EU would mean leaving the SM and CU that he and his government would carry out the will of the people to the tee.
That was to Cliff. [Post edited 14 Dec 2018 17:19]
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I agree IF it had all been made clear what exactly was meant by "leaving" we would have known what we were voting for.
My point is we didn't | | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 17:48 - Dec 14 with 1752 views | Mytch_QPR |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 17:29 - Dec 14 by Cliff |
I agree IF it had all been made clear what exactly was meant by "leaving" we would have known what we were voting for.
My point is we didn't |
...and some clarity would have made the job of Cameron's successor easier. He disappeared PDQ largely because he recognised it was an impossible job. |  |
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 17:57 - Dec 14 with 1732 views | Sharpy36 |
Some good news. Leaving one my "Clear definitions" the CU will bring.
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| 'You didn't know that was wrong, but now you do. If you do it again, I'll know you are doing it on purpose.' |
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 18:36 - Dec 14 with 1670 views | QPR_John |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 13:57 - Dec 14 by kensalriser |
No, the European commission is not elected. Neither is our civil service, nor House of Lords, nor head of state.
The commission can only propose legislation that then has to be ratified by the directly elected parliament and the council, which is made up of the elected governments of the member states.
The US is a federal state. The EU is not - as indeed your wiki quote appears to say! [Post edited 14 Dec 2018 13:58]
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"No, the European commission is not elected. Neither is our civil service, nor House of Lords, nor head of state. "
But I don't see members of our civil service parading around the world taking photo opportunities with elected politicians |  | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 19:05 - Dec 14 with 1627 views | QPR_John |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 23:48 - Dec 13 by kensalriser |
We've never been governed by the EU, the EU is not unelected and there is no EU federal state.
What else do you have? |
You would have an argument prior to the referendum but since then Brussels know should we remain they own us. The majority of polititions not to mention the media have made it crystal clear we cannot exist outside of the EU. | | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 19:12 - Dec 14 with 1622 views | TacticalR |
The Tories are in turmoil because they have promised what they can't deliver.
This becomes more and more apparent by the day as absurdity is piled upon absurdity, humiliation upon humiliation.
If Thatcherism was the moment that the British establishment decided that it no longer mattered if anyone knew how to make anything, the current fiasco shows the British establishment no longer knows how to do anything. One European diplomat asked recently about Britain: 'What's happened to you?'
As May dashed off to plead with Merkel I thought back to something I said the day before Brexit:
'Stay or leave, Britain will be in an ever growing position of weakness in relation to Germany.'
Brexit .... My thoughts... by JacksDad 16 Jun 2016 11:07The one thing I am certain of re this vote is that no-one knows for sure what the repercussions economically will be if we pull out. If you listen to the experts it will be better if we stay in, however its all unconvincing. My issue is that after 10 years of Austerity, the services in this country have been cut to the bone, that is services that are needed by us all - not just Immigrants/benefit spongers. We are not in a position to afford the enormous gamble if it all goes t1ts up. I am taking my lead from Ray Winston and gambling responsibly and staying in. If we ever get to situation when everything is adequately funded and horrible 0 hours contracts were abolished ... then maybe it might be worth the risk to pull out. But to do it now is a massive gamble which we just cannot afford to lose.
It's also becoming apparent that there are two types of leavers. Those who can see that Brexit is a lot more difficult than anyone anticipated and that there is no glorious future once we set sail and head off on the high seas.
Then there are the vociferous Boiled Frogs of Brexit. To put it in football terms: they gave it a lot of mouth, then travelled away and got their heads kicked in (remember how David Davis said last year it was going to be the 'row of the summer' and caved on the first day?), then when they got battered they said they would have won if they'd sent in their really hard lads. It doesn't matter how many kickings they get, like drunken parrots they will always cry 'Betrayal!', because for them there are no defeats, only betrayals. [Post edited 15 Dec 2018 13:18]
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 19:14 - Dec 14 with 1619 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 17:29 - Dec 14 by Cliff |
I agree IF it had all been made clear what exactly was meant by "leaving" we would have known what we were voting for.
My point is we didn't |
Who are these "we"
You mean you didn't
Stop making these disingenuous assumptions that leave voters did not understand the question, they did, leave or stay.
You are just like these pathetic Mp's stirring up mud because you don't like the result of the referendum
Are you Vince Cable [Post edited 14 Dec 2018 19:24]
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 19:31 - Dec 14 with 1589 views | BasingstokeR |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 19:14 - Dec 14 by 2Thomas2Bowles |
Who are these "we"
You mean you didn't
Stop making these disingenuous assumptions that leave voters did not understand the question, they did, leave or stay.
You are just like these pathetic Mp's stirring up mud because you don't like the result of the referendum
Are you Vince Cable [Post edited 14 Dec 2018 19:24]
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“Stop making these disingenuous assumptions that leave voters did not understand the question, they did, leave or stay.“
Who is this “they did”?
You mean either “I feel I did” or “some felt they did”
You realise you told someone not to make disingenuous assumptions and then did that yourself in part of the very same sentence no less? | | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! (n/t) on 19:39 - Dec 14 with 1574 views | kensalriser |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 19:05 - Dec 14 by QPR_John |
You would have an argument prior to the referendum but since then Brussels know should we remain they own us. The majority of polititions not to mention the media have made it crystal clear we cannot exist outside of the EU. |
[Post edited 14 Dec 2018 19:40]
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 19:40 - Dec 14 with 1572 views | kensalriser |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 19:05 - Dec 14 by QPR_John |
You would have an argument prior to the referendum but since then Brussels know should we remain they own us. The majority of polititions not to mention the media have made it crystal clear we cannot exist outside of the EU. |
Not for the first time I have little idea of what point or argument you're trying to make here. Ditto the post above. | |
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 19:48 - Dec 14 with 1558 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 19:31 - Dec 14 by BasingstokeR |
“Stop making these disingenuous assumptions that leave voters did not understand the question, they did, leave or stay.“
Who is this “they did”?
You mean either “I feel I did” or “some felt they did”
You realise you told someone not to make disingenuous assumptions and then did that yourself in part of the very same sentence no less? |
What's good for the goose...
I've never said anyone from whatever side, did not understand the question. I give them a bit more credit, unlike remoanes that call all leave votes Racists, little Britons, idiots. fools, thick, don't understand on and on with the insults
Disingenuous is the right word for those that go around saying leavers did not know what they voted for as the question was a simple one. leave or stay
Yes but no but, is just remoaners chucking the kitchen sink at it, in desperation to change the result. [Post edited 14 Dec 2018 19:50]
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 19:53 - Dec 14 with 1544 views | R_from_afar |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 14:53 - Dec 14 by 2Thomas2Bowles |
Well if we keep having summers like this year no need for Millions to go to Spain , Greece, Italy and so on, that's Spain, Greece, Italy fecked
Maybe we should charge EU Citizens that come here to use the NHS and don't bother paying [Post edited 14 Dec 2018 14:54]
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Mrs R from Afar works in a large NHS hospital. Non-Brits have to show their EHIC card to get treatment, although in the case of genuine emergencies e.g. car crashes - like on the continent - people might get treatment without showing the card, rather than being left to die in the street.
The hospital have a department whose job it is to handle people's entitlement to treatment. You can't just come over from Skopje to get your hip replaced on a whim.
RFA |  |
| "Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1." |
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 20:03 - Dec 14 with 1535 views | hubble |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 13:57 - Dec 14 by kensalriser |
No, the European commission is not elected. Neither is our civil service, nor House of Lords, nor head of state.
The commission can only propose legislation that then has to be ratified by the directly elected parliament and the council, which is made up of the elected governments of the member states.
The US is a federal state. The EU is not - as indeed your wiki quote appears to say! [Post edited 14 Dec 2018 13:58]
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That's a pretty disingenuous reply Fromage me old mucker - the wiki quote basically shows that the EU *is* pretty much a federal state in all but name, and that since the get go, it has been moving ever closer to full federalisation. And the way you describe the EU commission makes them sound like some kind of anodyne entity, whereas in fact they wield the real power in the EU. And as you agree (unavoidably, since it's fact) they are unelected. |  |
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 20:05 - Dec 14 with 1531 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 19:53 - Dec 14 by R_from_afar |
Mrs R from Afar works in a large NHS hospital. Non-Brits have to show their EHIC card to get treatment, although in the case of genuine emergencies e.g. car crashes - like on the continent - people might get treatment without showing the card, rather than being left to die in the street.
The hospital have a department whose job it is to handle people's entitlement to treatment. You can't just come over from Skopje to get your hip replaced on a whim.
RFA |
New figures show the NHS is paying out millions more for EU healthcare than it is getting back from EU countries.
In what one MP described as a "scandalous failure", it has emerged that the UK pays more than £670m to EU countries for Brits' healthcare abroad, while less than £50m from the EU is paid back, even though there are significantly more EU citizens in the UK than UK citizens in the EU.
Under the European Health Insurance Card (EHIC) - countries can claim back health costs from other EU countries if their citizens use medical services abroad.
The new figures reveal that nearly every country claims more from the UK than the UK gets back from the rest of the EU.
For example, the UK pays France £147,685,772, but France only pays UK £6,730,292 and the UK pays Germany £25,873,954 but Germany only pays the UK £2,189,664.
Even in countries such as Poland where net migration is massively towards the UK, the discrepancy is four-fold in Poland's favour.
"The figures are astonishing - we are paying them 70 times more than they are paying us.
"We are paying our bills and they are not paying theirs
"There is meant to be a comparable system in place - but it is not being applied in this country and that means we are losing out.
"Every single country is winning against us, be it the super-efficient Swedes or Germans, or countries like Malta or Greece. | |
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 20:05 - Dec 14 with 1528 views | QPR_John |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 19:40 - Dec 14 by kensalriser |
Not for the first time I have little idea of what point or argument you're trying to make here. Ditto the post above. |
OK I'll try and explain. Most MPs and the media have from the referendum result stated in no uncertain terms that we cannot function outside of the EU. Massive unemployment, planes not flying, emergency budgets, empty supermarket selves, people dying through lack of medicines you name it and we've been warned about it. Should we remain, and I think now that is the likeliest outcome Brussels knows in any further negotiations they will be dealing with people who will accept anything rather than leave. As I said they will own us. Hope that makes it clear | | | |
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