| QPR Finances released 06:25 - Feb 28 with 59839 views | Jeff |
From Kieran Maguire in the Twitter:
[Post edited 28 Feb 2023 6:29]
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| QPR Finances released on 11:41 - Feb 28 with 2786 views | bosh67 |
It kind of feels like we are doomed unless a middle eastern organisation deems us worthy of a reboot. So much seems to be against the club really recovering or operating like Brentford, Luton or even Millwall. We can't cut our cloth accordingly because we are running out of cloth to cut. The only saving grace is that we are in much the same boat as a number of other clubs and if we are not careful, clubs like us will end up in the Nationwide league or worse. It feels like it is only a matter of time.
I was speaking to a Luton friend here and he says he fears them going up because the ground is so bad and they'll get stuffed every week. However, they are far better run than we are and would probably make far more sensible decisions. Although saying that I sometimes wonder what Hoos has to do. There is no magic wand he can wave here. |  |
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| QPR Finances released on 11:46 - Feb 28 with 2735 views | Gloucs_R |
Player sales, realistically...??
Dykes max £2.5m
Chair £3-5m
Willock £3-5m
Dieing £1.5m
Dickie £750k
Field £2m
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| QPR Finances released on 11:47 - Feb 28 with 2730 views | paulparker |
| QPR Finances released on 06:42 - Feb 28 by Hunterhoop |
And therein shows the reality of how much Warburton was backed by in his final year. No major sale and signings on big salaries. The year before the year we accounted for some/most of the Eze sale. Last season we lost that sake money and 3m more extra to 2021.
A 24m loss a season is not sustainable in FFP. Can anyone remember what we lost in the season ending 2020? 2021 and 2022 together is 28.8m, so hope it was less than 10m. If it wasn’t we’ve breached slightly. If it was, we somehow need to only lose 10m this season. Given we’ve not sold anyone, no idea how we achieve that. We won’t.
Hopefully SimonD can explain how some of these losses are excluded from FFP calcs. Otherwise we look like we’re about to breach FFP either now (slightly) or in one year’s time. And we’re going to be miles over come the end of next season (as the 4m loss season drops out of the rolling period). So come Feb/March 2025 when we announce 2024 season we will get a points deduction. Unless we have a fire sale this summer and play children in 2023/24 season which will get us relegated anyway.
I’m not sure there is a way out of avoiding a points deduction. A 24m loss in one season is just unmanageable in FFP. Shouldn’t have given the manager what he wanted unless it got us up. Gambled and lost. |
Hopefully it will put to bed all this better off with Warburton posts |  |
| And Bowles is onside, Swinburne has come rushing out of his goal , what can Bowles do here , onto the left foot no, on to the right foot
That’s there that’s two, and that’s Bowles
Brian Moore
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| QPR Finances released on 11:49 - Feb 28 with 2724 views | robith |
Me reading this thread
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| QPR Finances released on 11:52 - Feb 28 with 2692 views | stantheman10 |
| QPR Finances released on 11:41 - Feb 28 by bosh67 |
It kind of feels like we are doomed unless a middle eastern organisation deems us worthy of a reboot. So much seems to be against the club really recovering or operating like Brentford, Luton or even Millwall. We can't cut our cloth accordingly because we are running out of cloth to cut. The only saving grace is that we are in much the same boat as a number of other clubs and if we are not careful, clubs like us will end up in the Nationwide league or worse. It feels like it is only a matter of time.
I was speaking to a Luton friend here and he says he fears them going up because the ground is so bad and they'll get stuffed every week. However, they are far better run than we are and would probably make far more sensible decisions. Although saying that I sometimes wonder what Hoos has to do. There is no magic wand he can wave here. |
What difference would it make if a middle eastern organisation took over? They still can't improve the squad or magic up a new ground in W12! |  | | |
| QPR Finances released on 11:58 - Feb 28 with 2640 views | Gloucs_R |
| QPR Finances released on 11:52 - Feb 28 by stantheman10 |
What difference would it make if a middle eastern organisation took over? They still can't improve the squad or magic up a new ground in W12! |
People are living in Cuckoo land if they think we are staying in Shepherd's Bush permanently.
Far more likely to be relocated somewhere along the A40 or towards Northwest London. | |
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| QPR Finances released on 12:04 - Feb 28 with 2603 views | kingsburyR |
| QPR Finances released on 09:49 - Feb 28 by Pikey |
Not going to comment on the accounts until someone who fully understands them posts a definitive view.
But I am amused that most postings blame Les and Hoos for not selling our best players and for over investing in others.
I'm sure I read on another string that Les and Hoos were to blame for us not keeping our best players and not signing anyone decent.
Ah well the life of a football fan. |
I'll do it.
WE ARE FU(KED! |  |
| Dont know why we bother. .... but we do! |
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| QPR Finances released on 12:07 - Feb 28 with 2570 views | Monkey_Roots |
Assume that there is some kind of rule that prevents Rueben getting one of the other clubs he has invested in to buy a few of our players for silly money? |  | | |
| QPR Finances released on 12:10 - Feb 28 with 2534 views | slmrstid |
| QPR Finances released on 12:07 - Feb 28 by Monkey_Roots |
Assume that there is some kind of rule that prevents Rueben getting one of the other clubs he has invested in to buy a few of our players for silly money? |
There isn't 'cos its what Watford have been doing for years. Whether they wish to is another matter. |  | | |
| QPR Finances released on 12:10 - Feb 28 with 2529 views | slmrstid |
| QPR Finances released on 11:49 - Feb 28 by robith |
Me reading this thread
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I posted this in another thread yesterday but it feels just as relevant here.
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| QPR Finances released on 12:14 - Feb 28 with 2501 views | PinnerPaul |
| QPR Finances released on 10:06 - Feb 28 by slmrstid |
The training ground investment is a fixed asset investment that sits on the clubs balance sheet.
The figures do not touch the Profit & Loss account so are not part of the £24m loss.
There are probably some costs within that £24m that are not part of the FFP calculations, but without detailed access to the FFP submission and the club's management accounts it would be absolutely impossible for us to be able to state with any degree of confidence what the FFP loss is other than guessing it is the same as the published pre-tax loss. [Post edited 28 Feb 2023 10:07]
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If there are 'some' costs that don't count towards and FFP , and there are, then no way can the FFP 'loss' be the same as the P & L loss! | | | |
| QPR Finances released on 12:15 - Feb 28 with 2491 views | DejR_vu |
| QPR Finances released on 12:10 - Feb 28 by slmrstid |
There isn't 'cos its what Watford have been doing for years. Whether they wish to is another matter. |
Indeed, Reuben has mentioned once or twice that he has interests in other football clubs. I'm guessing it is something that would have happened if there was the will. That said, was there not a rule change recently to stop it? | |
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| QPR Finances released on 12:27 - Feb 28 with 2403 views | daveB |
| QPR Finances released on 12:15 - Feb 28 by DejR_vu |
Indeed, Reuben has mentioned once or twice that he has interests in other football clubs. I'm guessing it is something that would have happened if there was the will. That said, was there not a rule change recently to stop it? |
you can be sure if we did it then we'd find a way to break the rules in doing so |  | | |
| QPR Finances released on 12:27 - Feb 28 with 2397 views | Gloucs_R |
| QPR Finances released on 12:07 - Feb 28 by Monkey_Roots |
Assume that there is some kind of rule that prevents Rueben getting one of the other clubs he has invested in to buy a few of our players for silly money? |
I think one of the clubs is LA and they don't have the ability to make large transfers happen due to restrictions and legislations. [Post edited 28 Feb 2023 14:50]
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| QPR Finances released on 12:28 - Feb 28 with 2388 views | BklynRanger |
| QPR Finances released on 11:49 - Feb 28 by robith |
Me reading this thread
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I was just thinking, some stats boffin like yourself should come up with an Escapism Index, to reflect the level of escapism one's football club provides at a given moment.
Our score would be really quite low these days. |  | | |
| QPR Finances released on 12:29 - Feb 28 with 2381 views | Blue_Castello |
| QPR Finances released on 11:52 - Feb 28 by stantheman10 |
What difference would it make if a middle eastern organisation took over? They still can't improve the squad or magic up a new ground in W12! |
Exactly first of all there's no way we are finding new owners and secondly the FFP rules apply to all owners even if they come from the Middle East.... | | | |
| QPR Finances released on 12:29 - Feb 28 with 2372 views | PinnerPaul |
Full list of FFP exclusions, NOTE includes depreciation of fixed assets, so some of that £24M will consist of some or all of the following
1.1.4 Adjusted Earnings Before Tax means Earnings Before Tax adjusted to exclude:
(a) costs (or estimated costs as the case may be) in respect of the following:
(i) depreciation and/or impairment of tangible fixed assets (net of any capital grants);
(ii) amortisation or impairment of goodwill and other intangible assets (but excluding amortisation and/or impairment of the costs of players’ registrations);
(iii) Women’s Football Expenditure;
(iv) Youth Development Expenditure;
(v) Community Development Expenditure; and
(vi) in respect of Seasons 2019/20, 2020/21 and 2021/22 only, COVID-19 Costs; and
(b) with effect from, and including the Accounting Reference Period covering Season 2021/22, profit/loss on disposal of any tangible fixed asset.
Each of Youth Development Expenditure, Women’s Football Expenditure, and Community Development Expenditure shall only be excluded from the calculation of Adjusted Earnings Before Tax if separately disclosed:
(i) by way of notes to the Annual Accounts; or
(ii) by way of supplementary information which;
(iii) has been identified and calculated in accordance with such guidance as issued by The League;
(iv) reconciles to the Annual Accounts; and
(v) has been subject to independent audit. | | | |
| QPR Finances released on 12:33 - Feb 28 with 2363 views | slmrstid |
| QPR Finances released on 12:14 - Feb 28 by PinnerPaul |
If there are 'some' costs that don't count towards and FFP , and there are, then no way can the FFP 'loss' be the same as the P & L loss! |
I did say it was a starting point, and as Northern has pointed out with SimonD's own estimates, its not going to be a radically different figure. But the point remains without access to the detailed records, we don't have a clue and its pure guesswork. So you might as well start at £24m and say its worse case, but even best case isn't going to be massively different.
I am a qualified accountant myself but I prefer not to go the arse end of trying to explain things on here because it either goes over people's heads, or you get people who don't know what they're talking about trying to tell you you're wrong.
Kudos to SimonD for willing to go into as much effort as he does in trying to explain further! | | | |
| QPR Finances released on 12:39 - Feb 28 with 2307 views | derbyhoop |
| QPR Finances released on 08:18 - Feb 28 by JamesB1979 |
Our costs really worry me and about how we’ve not reduced them. We seem to have 40 more staff than Millwall for example. |
Amen to that.
How the f*** do we get Cost of Sales to 37m?
And 9m on admin for a Championship club seems excessive. |  |
| "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one's lifetime." (Mark Twain)
Find me on twitter @derbyhoop and now on Bluesky |
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| QPR Finances released on 12:40 - Feb 28 with 2301 views | californiahoop |
| QPR Finances released on 07:47 - Feb 28 by Gloucs_R |
Heads need to role
Set up need to be streamlined
New stadium required
Transfer policy needs scraping and rewriting
Almost certainly going to be a fire sale in the summer selling off our playing assets for whatever we can get for them.
League 1 written all over us. Hello Charlton, have you missed us? [Post edited 28 Feb 2023 8:03]
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On the money! | | | |
| QPR Finances released on 12:55 - Feb 28 with 2206 views | Ad99 |
| QPR Finances released on 10:04 - Feb 28 by johnhoop |
Or alternatively ( and what would be hugely preferable for QPR), is that you could let the owners inject however much money they wanted into their clubs a long as they incurred the debt and it wasn’t loaded onto the clubs. It would enable our owners, if they wanted (and I think they probably do), to fund us to do more than simply hang on to survival by the skin of our teeth and I don’t see why it would lead to any more clubs going bust.
But of course I don’t think it’s going to happen and on the basis of these financial figures, if the rules remain the same they will condemn us to being a League Two club ( or worse ) in the none too distant future. |
Agree with this. As long as the club is (somehow) protected from a Sugar Daddy abruptly ending a spending cycle and creating rot then someone should be able to invest and spend as they please. Sod FFP, it's a mickey mouse affair anyway.
Football is a form of insanity in itself. To think it can be a sensible and rational business with so little stability and unpredictability is mad. | | | |
| QPR Finances released on 13:00 - Feb 28 with 2167 views | 1JD |
There is a lot of speculation on this thread. The easiest method to understand the health of the football club is the “wages-to-turnover” percentage figure. (added in graphic)
A few comments;
- As a recap, the wage bill was previously (and successfully) managed down as we came to the end of the parachute payments in 18/19.
- In 19/20 — the first season post-parachute payments — we posted our best wage bill in many a year at £21.3m.
- In the two years since, wages have increased +£4m, in 20/21m, and a further +£4m in 21/22, adding +£8m to the wage bill in only two seasons.
- This culminated in a £29.4m wage bill last season — 21/22. The significant wage additions of Austin, Johansen, and Gray being the culprit.
- Therefore, we can easily see where the problem is, but also where the solution lies.
- In short, so long as the wage bill is managed down again, to levels achieved in the 19/20 season, the desperation of selling players lock stock and barrel, to fall in line with FFP, is not actually necessary.
- The main variable cost is wages, everything else is a relative constant e.g. stadium running costs being the main other expense (and player transfers, IF available cash,, but there is not).
- It will help to sell a player, of course, but I suspect the club will likely not budget for this next season, as it cannot be guaranteed.
We already heard of a “tightening of the belts” this season, 22/23, from a wage perspective. And we can expect this to continue for next season 23/24. I’m confident the club have a handle on all of this. | | | |
| QPR Finances released on 13:01 - Feb 28 with 2153 views | francisbowles |
| QPR Finances released on 12:29 - Feb 28 by PinnerPaul |
Full list of FFP exclusions, NOTE includes depreciation of fixed assets, so some of that £24M will consist of some or all of the following
1.1.4 Adjusted Earnings Before Tax means Earnings Before Tax adjusted to exclude:
(a) costs (or estimated costs as the case may be) in respect of the following:
(i) depreciation and/or impairment of tangible fixed assets (net of any capital grants);
(ii) amortisation or impairment of goodwill and other intangible assets (but excluding amortisation and/or impairment of the costs of players’ registrations);
(iii) Women’s Football Expenditure;
(iv) Youth Development Expenditure;
(v) Community Development Expenditure; and
(vi) in respect of Seasons 2019/20, 2020/21 and 2021/22 only, COVID-19 Costs; and
(b) with effect from, and including the Accounting Reference Period covering Season 2021/22, profit/loss on disposal of any tangible fixed asset.
Each of Youth Development Expenditure, Women’s Football Expenditure, and Community Development Expenditure shall only be excluded from the calculation of Adjusted Earnings Before Tax if separately disclosed:
(i) by way of notes to the Annual Accounts; or
(ii) by way of supplementary information which;
(iii) has been identified and calculated in accordance with such guidance as issued by The League;
(iv) reconciles to the Annual Accounts; and
(v) has been subject to independent audit. |
Thanks Pinner.
So does Youth development expenditure include the salaries of Academy coaches and other staff in that area? | | | |
| QPR Finances released on 13:11 - Feb 28 with 2094 views | WestbourneR |
| QPR Finances released on 12:27 - Feb 28 by Gloucs_R |
I think one of the clubs is LA and they don't have the ability to make large transfers happen due to restrictions and legislations. [Post edited 28 Feb 2023 14:50]
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Ah, it's the 'globalists' fault. I should have known.
This very much a joke btw. I assume you meant 'due'? |  |
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