| Another Brexit thread 08:27 - Aug 5 with 15265 views | waynekerr55 |
Genuine questions which I feel deserve a thread of their own
What made you vote leave or remain?
Based on the facts now, would you change your decision?
I voted remain as I wasn't convinced by either sides argument so I stuck with the status quo.
I'd stick to my decision, simply because there is no tangible evidence that leaving sorts us out in the short to medium term. |  |
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| Another Brexit thread on 11:57 - Aug 6 with 1220 views | bluey_the_blue |
| Another Brexit thread on 08:55 - Aug 6 by WarwickHunt |
"We will implement your decision". May only have been an advisory referendum, but that comment was clear evidence of the Remain backing government lying, right?
Christ - you do spout some utter bollox...  |
It's clear evidence of misleading people is it not?
Granted, no government would put "Meh, we'll take your opinion into account maybe" out there but the clear interpretation from that was that it was a binding referendum rather than advisory.
I suspect it was deliberately misleading in the expectation of Remain win. |  | | |
| Another Brexit thread on 12:01 - Aug 6 with 1219 views | Lohengrin |
| Another Brexit thread on 11:46 - Aug 6 by londonlisa2001 |
It’s not really a comparison of like with like.
‘Leave’ is a change of the status quo, so by definition it’s a massive upheaval that simply wouldn’t take place the other way round. And it’s become increasingly obvious that ‘leave’ is also too vague a notion, as it doesn’t mean the same thing to everyone that voted for it. We have not left because leavers can’t decide which way to do it. Remainers have exploited the uncertainty but certainly didn’t cause it. If the leavers in parliament had voted for the deal we had to leave, we would have left.
But the premise behind your post that it’s only the leave vote that has led to this argument is also ignoring the reality that many right wing politicians and media sources (and a few on the hard left) have talked about the EU in disparaging terms and urged us to leave it for almost 50 years. If remain had won, they wouldn’t have stopped. |
”...by definition it’s a massive upheaval.”
I haven’t long come back from town, Lis. I must have stopped a half dozen times to give a few bob to poor bastards sitting out begging in the tipping down rain. The downward spiral this country has been embarked on for the last decade is pitiful to behold.
Maybe “a massive upheaval,” a revolutionary upheaval, is the only prescription. It can’t carry on like this. |  |
| An idea isn't responsible for those who believe in it. |
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| Another Brexit thread on 12:01 - Aug 6 with 1206 views | WarwickHunt |
| Another Brexit thread on 11:08 - Aug 6 by controversial_jack |
Immigration was the only issue IMO |
And all those rules and pernicious laws imposed against our will (that no one can name...) that keep us chained and bound. |  | | |
| Another Brexit thread on 12:24 - Aug 6 with 1200 views | costalotta |
| Another Brexit thread on 12:01 - Aug 6 by Lohengrin |
”...by definition it’s a massive upheaval.”
I haven’t long come back from town, Lis. I must have stopped a half dozen times to give a few bob to poor bastards sitting out begging in the tipping down rain. The downward spiral this country has been embarked on for the last decade is pitiful to behold.
Maybe “a massive upheaval,” a revolutionary upheaval, is the only prescription. It can’t carry on like this. |
Who’s been power for 9 years. Who started this battle of the EU? Who misled the British public for years when based in Brussels. Who now thinks that no deal is a strong negotiating position and will happily take us there?
But it seems the revolution you Speak is best handled by the architects that form the answer of the above.
Good luck with that Loh. Seems youll need to make many more trips to town. |  | | |
| Another Brexit thread on 12:26 - Aug 6 with 1196 views | Professor |
Remain and unequivocally so.
As a scientist you understand we need EU- based co-operation or we become a nothing under the power of the US and Chinese ( and at some point Indian) science-base. We are the leader within the EU, but would be less effective without the way EU supports science and infrastructure.
Most EU regulations that the likes of the ‘Daily Heil’ object to support workers rights, public health, environmental protection etc. They tend to erode profits slightly. Brexit seems to be leading to an US-like deregulated system. Less tax but little support. Health Insurance would be needed, little in the way of rights in terms of job security. Reduced environmental and food standards. It’s a choice. Many Americans have miserable lives with multiple jobs.
That said Loh is right. We need a fundamental political change. We are a mess
Since the crash and neither Tory austerity or Corbyn offer answers | | | |
| Another Brexit thread on 12:30 - Aug 6 with 1185 views | Lohengrin |
| Another Brexit thread on 12:24 - Aug 6 by costalotta |
Who’s been power for 9 years. Who started this battle of the EU? Who misled the British public for years when based in Brussels. Who now thinks that no deal is a strong negotiating position and will happily take us there?
But it seems the revolution you Speak is best handled by the architects that form the answer of the above.
Good luck with that Loh. Seems youll need to make many more trips to town. |
”Who’s been power for 9 years.”
Mammon has. The same claque that was enthroned in 1979, with rotating faces and alternating coloured rosettes. | |
| An idea isn't responsible for those who believe in it. |
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| Another Brexit thread on 12:32 - Aug 6 with 1180 views | Kilkennyjack |
| Another Brexit thread on 12:01 - Aug 6 by Lohengrin |
”...by definition it’s a massive upheaval.”
I haven’t long come back from town, Lis. I must have stopped a half dozen times to give a few bob to poor bastards sitting out begging in the tipping down rain. The downward spiral this country has been embarked on for the last decade is pitiful to behold.
Maybe “a massive upheaval,” a revolutionary upheaval, is the only prescription. It can’t carry on like this. |
And Brexit makes this a lot lot worse.
If we had spent the Brexit money on homelessness, then we would have done something useful.
Look at this Tory b@stard ...
This is their real Brexit dividend. [Post edited 6 Aug 2019 12:34]
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| Beware of the Risen People
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| Another Brexit thread on 12:36 - Aug 6 with 1169 views | pikeypaul |
“Fundamental political change”
MPs that believed in democracy and carrying out the will of the British people would be a start. |  |
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| Another Brexit thread on 12:37 - Aug 6 with 1166 views | Lohengrin |
| Another Brexit thread on 12:32 - Aug 6 by Kilkennyjack |
And Brexit makes this a lot lot worse.
If we had spent the Brexit money on homelessness, then we would have done something useful.
Look at this Tory b@stard ...
This is their real Brexit dividend. [Post edited 6 Aug 2019 12:34]
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I wonder if Crispin will take the opportunity to repent or just stand there soiling himself in the final moments after the blindfold has been secured?  | |
| An idea isn't responsible for those who believe in it. |
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| Another Brexit thread on 12:38 - Aug 6 with 1164 views | Kilkennyjack |
| Another Brexit thread on 11:57 - Aug 6 by bluey_the_blue |
It's clear evidence of misleading people is it not?
Granted, no government would put "Meh, we'll take your opinion into account maybe" out there but the clear interpretation from that was that it was a binding referendum rather than advisory.
I suspect it was deliberately misleading in the expectation of Remain win. |
If it was binding ...then the VoteLeave law breaking would have rendered it null and void. As it should be. | |
| Beware of the Risen People
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| Another Brexit thread on 12:40 - Aug 6 with 1160 views | Kilkennyjack |
| Another Brexit thread on 12:37 - Aug 6 by Lohengrin |
I wonder if Crispin will take the opportunity to repent or just stand there soiling himself in the final moments after the blindfold has been secured? |
You get my vote for that Loh ... | |
| Beware of the Risen People
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| Another Brexit thread on 12:45 - Aug 6 with 1152 views | sotonswan |
I saw Henning Wehn perform his 'Just Get On With It' stage act at the York Barbican last week. At one point he asks for a show of hands who would vote differently if the Referendum were re-run tomorrow. Very few hands were raised. He said it was much the same everywhere.
It was a very good show by the way. He's a Remainer who accepts the result. On the question of whether he would go back to Germany, he said that as he has 'no transferable skills' he's going down with us. ;-) |  |
| We are the NORTH BANK POPULAR FRONT !
(in no way affiliated to those splitters the North Bank Alliance.)
WWG1WGA |
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| Another Brexit thread on 12:47 - Aug 6 with 1149 views | Jango |
| Another Brexit thread on 11:46 - Aug 6 by londonlisa2001 |
It’s not really a comparison of like with like.
‘Leave’ is a change of the status quo, so by definition it’s a massive upheaval that simply wouldn’t take place the other way round. And it’s become increasingly obvious that ‘leave’ is also too vague a notion, as it doesn’t mean the same thing to everyone that voted for it. We have not left because leavers can’t decide which way to do it. Remainers have exploited the uncertainty but certainly didn’t cause it. If the leavers in parliament had voted for the deal we had to leave, we would have left.
But the premise behind your post that it’s only the leave vote that has led to this argument is also ignoring the reality that many right wing politicians and media sources (and a few on the hard left) have talked about the EU in disparaging terms and urged us to leave it for almost 50 years. If remain had won, they wouldn’t have stopped. |
*If the leavers in parliament had voted for the deal we had to leave, we would have left*
You make this point time and again claiming that the deal on the table satisfies the vote to leave. Why then do you never criticise every remain MP who were elected on the back of promises to get brexit done, if as you say the deal was there? There’s far more of those remain MP’s than brexiteers.
[Post edited 6 Aug 2019 12:49]
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| Another Brexit thread on 12:55 - Aug 6 with 1134 views | waynekerr55 |
| Another Brexit thread on 12:36 - Aug 6 by pikeypaul |
“Fundamental political change”
MPs that believed in democracy and carrying out the will of the British people would be a start. |
What does "believe in democracy" mean? Come on Pikey you little scamp, answer the question  | |
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| Another Brexit thread on 13:08 - Aug 6 with 1121 views | Highjack |
| Another Brexit thread on 12:24 - Aug 6 by costalotta |
Who’s been power for 9 years. Who started this battle of the EU? Who misled the British public for years when based in Brussels. Who now thinks that no deal is a strong negotiating position and will happily take us there?
But it seems the revolution you Speak is best handled by the architects that form the answer of the above.
Good luck with that Loh. Seems youll need to make many more trips to town. |
Ironically it was the Lib Dems who first campaigned for a referendum on Europe. Nick Clegg and Ed Davey stormed out of the commons because the Speaker refused their bill. They were in power for 5 of the 9 years too. |  |
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| Another Brexit thread on 16:23 - Aug 6 with 1069 views | westwalesed |
As I see it, and this is just a personal opinion of a Leaver (I'm not trying to change minds here), is that since the result of the Referendum in 2016 our entire Political Class as a whole has abjectly failed to implement the result of the Referendum.
Parliament devolved this decision to the people as soon as they legislated to have a Referendum.
Parliament then endorsed the decision of the Referendum by triggering Article 50. They knew that the timeframe was two years, or we were out on WTO terms.
This was backed up when both the main parties campaigned to respect the Referendum result in the GE in 2017.
There was then a concerted effort by some Remainers to openly overturn the result, by some Remainers who accepted the result to produce a deal which looked like leaving but was too much like remaining to satisfy the ERG wing of the Tories who themselves would not budge from their view of Brexit.
The EU knew all this. They exploited our disunity in Parliament by presenting us with a deal which was non-negotiable and in my view was designed to be such a bad deal for the UK that we would reconsider the whole thing. They played a blinder.
The Conservative Party couldn't decide what it wanted.
The Labour Party were attempting to trigger an election.
The Libs were openly refusing to accept the result
And the Nationalists were doing the same to further their aim of the breakup of the UK.
No-one, as I can see it, was willing to shift in order to fulfill the will of the people which is what they were, on the whole, elected to do.
Their job was to was to Leave, end of. Yes 48% voted to Remain, I get that, but you have to have the losers consent in a Democracy or you don't live in a Democracy. It really is that simple.
Now that they have made a total Horlicks of it, the only option left is to leave on WTO terms in October. That is the only thing left in law. And if that is not followed through - hopefully with a mutually beneficial deal, then I think we are in incredibly dangerous times in terms of our Democracy. I don't see how anyone really, in their heart of hearts can say we live in one. | |
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| Another Brexit thread on 16:29 - Aug 6 with 1060 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Another Brexit thread on 16:23 - Aug 6 by westwalesed |
As I see it, and this is just a personal opinion of a Leaver (I'm not trying to change minds here), is that since the result of the Referendum in 2016 our entire Political Class as a whole has abjectly failed to implement the result of the Referendum.
Parliament devolved this decision to the people as soon as they legislated to have a Referendum.
Parliament then endorsed the decision of the Referendum by triggering Article 50. They knew that the timeframe was two years, or we were out on WTO terms.
This was backed up when both the main parties campaigned to respect the Referendum result in the GE in 2017.
There was then a concerted effort by some Remainers to openly overturn the result, by some Remainers who accepted the result to produce a deal which looked like leaving but was too much like remaining to satisfy the ERG wing of the Tories who themselves would not budge from their view of Brexit.
The EU knew all this. They exploited our disunity in Parliament by presenting us with a deal which was non-negotiable and in my view was designed to be such a bad deal for the UK that we would reconsider the whole thing. They played a blinder.
The Conservative Party couldn't decide what it wanted.
The Labour Party were attempting to trigger an election.
The Libs were openly refusing to accept the result
And the Nationalists were doing the same to further their aim of the breakup of the UK.
No-one, as I can see it, was willing to shift in order to fulfill the will of the people which is what they were, on the whole, elected to do.
Their job was to was to Leave, end of. Yes 48% voted to Remain, I get that, but you have to have the losers consent in a Democracy or you don't live in a Democracy. It really is that simple.
Now that they have made a total Horlicks of it, the only option left is to leave on WTO terms in October. That is the only thing left in law. And if that is not followed through - hopefully with a mutually beneficial deal, then I think we are in incredibly dangerous times in terms of our Democracy. I don't see how anyone really, in their heart of hearts can say we live in one. |
“Parliament then endorsed the decision of the Referendum by triggering Article 50. ”
Apart from they didn’t. | | | |
| Another Brexit thread on 16:34 - Aug 6 with 1049 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Another Brexit thread on 12:47 - Aug 6 by Jango |
*If the leavers in parliament had voted for the deal we had to leave, we would have left*
You make this point time and again claiming that the deal on the table satisfies the vote to leave. Why then do you never criticise every remain MP who were elected on the back of promises to get brexit done, if as you say the deal was there? There’s far more of those remain MP’s than brexiteers.
[Post edited 6 Aug 2019 12:49]
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I’m not claiming anything. The deal on the table does, as a straightforward statement of fact, meet the result of the vote, which was to leave. There is no other way of spinning it.
And why the hell should I criticise remain MPs for not voting for leave when the leave MPs are not voting for leave? Your focus is in completely the wrong place. The ones you should blame for not leaving in March are the ones now in control.
But don’t pretend people voted for their vision of what leaving means. | | | |
| Another Brexit thread on 16:35 - Aug 6 with 1047 views | westwalesed |
| Another Brexit thread on 16:29 - Aug 6 by londonlisa2001 |
“Parliament then endorsed the decision of the Referendum by triggering Article 50. ”
Apart from they didn’t. |
I'm genuinely happy to be educated here. I'm happy to be told I'm wrong.
So, what am I not understanding, as I thought that the House of Commons voted by 494 to 122 on 8 February 2017 to pass the European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Act 2017 - which then gave the PM the authority to trigger Article 50? | |
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| Another Brexit thread on 16:38 - Aug 6 with 1036 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Another Brexit thread on 16:35 - Aug 6 by westwalesed |
I'm genuinely happy to be educated here. I'm happy to be told I'm wrong.
So, what am I not understanding, as I thought that the House of Commons voted by 494 to 122 on 8 February 2017 to pass the European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Act 2017 - which then gave the PM the authority to trigger Article 50? |
But that’s not what you said. You said parliament had triggered it, when they didn’t. They gave an authority to trigger it, without any specified date.
It’s quite an important difference. [Post edited 6 Aug 2019 16:40]
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| Another Brexit thread on 16:40 - Aug 6 with 1030 views | bluey_the_blue |
| Another Brexit thread on 16:38 - Aug 6 by londonlisa2001 |
But that’s not what you said. You said parliament had triggered it, when they didn’t. They gave an authority to trigger it, without any specified date.
It’s quite an important difference. [Post edited 6 Aug 2019 16:40]
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It is but it's also stretching credibility if you're claiming those voting to give that authority didn't know it would be invoked immediately. | | | |
| Another Brexit thread on 16:41 - Aug 6 with 1022 views | westwalesed |
| Another Brexit thread on 16:38 - Aug 6 by londonlisa2001 |
But that’s not what you said. You said parliament had triggered it, when they didn’t. They gave an authority to trigger it, without any specified date.
It’s quite an important difference. [Post edited 6 Aug 2019 16:40]
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Fair enough, I shall be more precise in the future!
But I think people know what I was trying to say ;) | |
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| Another Brexit thread on 16:44 - Aug 6 with 1016 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Another Brexit thread on 16:40 - Aug 6 by bluey_the_blue |
It is but it's also stretching credibility if you're claiming those voting to give that authority didn't know it would be invoked immediately. |
It’s stretching it no more than the constant claim they voted to leave without any deal at the end of a two year period they didn’t give any start date for.
Plus it wasn’t even this Parliament that did it. | | | |
| Another Brexit thread on 16:45 - Aug 6 with 1013 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Another Brexit thread on 12:01 - Aug 6 by Lohengrin |
”...by definition it’s a massive upheaval.”
I haven’t long come back from town, Lis. I must have stopped a half dozen times to give a few bob to poor bastards sitting out begging in the tipping down rain. The downward spiral this country has been embarked on for the last decade is pitiful to behold.
Maybe “a massive upheaval,” a revolutionary upheaval, is the only prescription. It can’t carry on like this. |
Voting for those that will benefit from brexit is hardly going to help given they are exactly the people that least care. | | | |
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