| Abuse in modern football 21:37 - Jan 27 with 3740 views | SAPilgrim |
After the news today that Stuart Kettlewell has resigned at Motherwell in Scotland in part because fan abuse was making his family not want to turn up at games, ashby deleting his social media as a closer to home example, even some disagreements on this forum (becoming a bit more spirited than anyone means to, do people think there’s a real culture problem now in modern football?
Is it just a weaker generation? Is it social media/coked up tourists/the immense amounts of money and expectations in the modern game? Will it get better, could it get worse? Regular and non-regular posters opinions invited. |  | | |  |
| Abuse in modern football on 21:44 - Jan 27 with 2592 views | FredManRave |
This thread could end up being a 10 pager, at least, but I'll simplify it as to how I treat modern life, let alone modern football, in the crazy world that we currently all live in.
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| Abuse in modern football on 21:47 - Jan 27 with 2547 views | qprxtc |
Football is a f uking pastime that has been elevated into a f ucking be all and end all way of f ucking life.
QPR are not f ucking life. They’re a made up team in a made up sport. To pass the time.
It doesn’t f ucking matter.
Good f ucking night |  | | |
| Abuse in modern football on 22:11 - Jan 27 with 2453 views | PlanetHonneywood |
| Abuse in modern football on 21:47 - Jan 27 by qprxtc |
Football is a f uking pastime that has been elevated into a f ucking be all and end all way of f ucking life.
QPR are not f ucking life. They’re a made up team in a made up sport. To pass the time.
It doesn’t f ucking matter.
Good f ucking night |
Good f ucking post! |  |
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| Abuse in modern football on 22:16 - Jan 27 with 2412 views | kensalriser |
| Abuse in modern football on 21:47 - Jan 27 by qprxtc |
Football is a f uking pastime that has been elevated into a f ucking be all and end all way of f ucking life.
QPR are not f ucking life. They’re a made up team in a made up sport. To pass the time.
It doesn’t f ucking matter.
Good f ucking night |
And actually, hardly anything really matters.
People have to find shit to do between mealtimes and sleeping: the root of all humanity's problems. |  |
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| Abuse in modern football on 22:17 - Jan 27 with 2405 views | Logman |
| Abuse in modern football on 21:47 - Jan 27 by qprxtc |
Football is a f uking pastime that has been elevated into a f ucking be all and end all way of f ucking life.
QPR are not f ucking life. They’re a made up team in a made up sport. To pass the time.
It doesn’t f ucking matter.
Good f ucking night |
That should be displayed at all the entrances to the ground. Great post. |  | | |
| Abuse in modern football on 22:19 - Jan 27 with 2397 views | Logman |
| Abuse in modern football on 22:17 - Jan 27 by Logman |
That should be displayed at all the entrances to the ground. Great post. |
That said, the poem which is put on the big screen before every home game is sheer class. | | | |
| Abuse in modern football on 22:34 - Jan 27 with 2332 views | Lblock |
| Abuse in modern football on 21:44 - Jan 27 by FredManRave |
This thread could end up being a 10 pager, at least, but I'll simplify it as to how I treat modern life, let alone modern football, in the crazy world that we currently all live in.
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Could you add “my bladder after 2 pints nowadays” in the bits outside the circle?
Then it’s something I’ll print out and be able to live my life by
Thanks |  |
| Cherish and enjoy life.... this ain't no dress rehearsal |
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| Abuse in modern football on 22:39 - Jan 27 with 2315 views | Lblock |
To answer the OP question
In my opinion a huge factor is this culture of everyone having the right to be morally outraged and an increasing number abusing the privilege
You’ll find those self same people can’t take anything on the chin but very quick to mouth off.
We also have a culture of “instantism” now; everyone wants everything, they want it now and scream if they don’t get it.
You mention football and it’s a great example but same rings true in many industries; Construction a fine example (highest male suicide in the 20’s to 40’s bracket in the UK is no shock) | |
| Cherish and enjoy life.... this ain't no dress rehearsal |
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| Abuse in modern football on 22:40 - Jan 27 with 2298 views | stevec |
Fan abuse at games was far worse 25-50 years ago than it is today.
Social media has just re channeled it from abuse that disappeared into the ether to actual prose that is there for all to read and regurgitate.
Make the break from social media and the abused will find they’re actually living in a far kinder world. |  | | |
| Abuse in modern football on 23:00 - Jan 27 with 2231 views | NewBee |
This thread reminds me of this story about Dixie Dean:
After a game at Spurs, Dixie was the last to walk off and a fan shouted to him "We'll get you yet, you black bastard!" A policeman overheard this but was pushed aside by Dixie saying "It's alright officer, I'll handle this" Dixie jumped over to the fan and punched him, sending him flying. The policeman who saw the incident winked at Dixie and said "That was a beauty but I never saw it officially."
https://www.toffeeweb.com/players/profiles/DeanWR.php
As a sign how things have changed, Dean got congratulated for his initiative, some decades later Cantona got severely punished for something similar.
(Btw, Dean was so abused because he had an unusually dark complexion, and tight, curly hair) | | | |
| Abuse in modern football on 23:47 - Jan 27 with 2086 views | CiderwithRsie |
| Abuse in modern football on 22:40 - Jan 27 by stevec |
Fan abuse at games was far worse 25-50 years ago than it is today.
Social media has just re channeled it from abuse that disappeared into the ether to actual prose that is there for all to read and regurgitate.
Make the break from social media and the abused will find they’re actually living in a far kinder world. |
Got to agree with this.
Most of us meet and talk to God knows how many people every day. How often do you see a fight or a shouting match break out in normal life, outside of someone being boozed up or just off their head? Hardly ever.
In certain places, though, apparently it's OK*. For some reason, football grounds have been like that since forever, and social media/online is another. On the road quite often another.
There are people on here who have posted gazillions of times without ever starting an argument with anyone, people that I for one will read as soon as I see the avatar. There are others who start a ruck regularly. I bet in a secret ballot 90% of us would put the same names in each category.
* It f ucking isn't. | | | |
| Abuse in modern football on 00:17 - Jan 28 with 2038 views | DannyPaddox |
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| Abuse in modern football on 00:19 - Jan 28 with 2032 views | Boston |
| Abuse in modern football on 21:47 - Jan 27 by qprxtc |
Football is a f uking pastime that has been elevated into a f ucking be all and end all way of f ucking life.
QPR are not f ucking life. They’re a made up team in a made up sport. To pass the time.
It doesn’t f ucking matter.
Good f ucking night |
...supported by middle-aged men with made up names. | |
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| Abuse in modern football on 00:29 - Jan 28 with 2013 views | PunteR |
| Abuse in modern football on 00:19 - Jan 28 by Boston |
...supported by middle-aged men with made up names. |
The names have been changed to protect the innocent. |  |
| Occasional providers of half decent House music. |
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| Abuse in modern football on 01:23 - Jan 28 with 1952 views | SydneyRs |
100% social media a big problem. It means there is no escape and people are stirring up nastiness 24/7. Over the last decade or so online discourse has become very unpleasant and certain forces are deliberately stoking division in every aspect of society.
Its one thing having banter, funny memes (which become less funny after endless copy/pasting) etc, but the personal stuff is just plain nasty and I assume mostly driven by individuals that are very unhappy with their own existence. | | | |
| Abuse in modern football on 01:28 - Jan 28 with 1909 views | stainrods_elbow |
| Abuse in modern football on 23:00 - Jan 27 by NewBee |
This thread reminds me of this story about Dixie Dean:
After a game at Spurs, Dixie was the last to walk off and a fan shouted to him "We'll get you yet, you black bastard!" A policeman overheard this but was pushed aside by Dixie saying "It's alright officer, I'll handle this" Dixie jumped over to the fan and punched him, sending him flying. The policeman who saw the incident winked at Dixie and said "That was a beauty but I never saw it officially."
https://www.toffeeweb.com/players/profiles/DeanWR.php
As a sign how things have changed, Dean got congratulated for his initiative, some decades later Cantona got severely punished for something similar.
(Btw, Dean was so abused because he had an unusually dark complexion, and tight, curly hair) |
The parallel with Cantona is a stirring one, of which incident the great, one-of-a-kind Eric wrote (I'm overlooking that goal at LR): 'My best moment? I have a lot of good moments but the one I prefer is when I kicked the hooligan'. (80s kids like me are also put in mind of the 'Sweet and Tender Hooligan' from The Smiths' back catalogue ('in the midst of life we are in death etcetera'.))
As Rob Smyth memorably put it in 2020 in The Guardian,
'Twenty-five years later, the footage and images of his kung-fu kick retain an exhilarating power. It was the definitive example of what Alex Ferguson called Cantona’s “defiant charisma". [...] Cantona has also spoken of wanting to give others – in this case, United fans – a vicarious thrill. It was an instinctive demonstration of a desire to do things that others did not have the opportunity or balls to do. His greatest virtue was that he had no edit function between instinct and action.'
According to Matthew Simmons, whom, as Smyth wrote, Cantona always referred to 'with a delightful, absent-minded contempt as "the hooligan"', what he actually said was 'off! off! off! It's an early bath for you, Mr Cantona' - because obviously an oik like him from Croydon with a history of violent assault and a penchant for BNP/NF rallies spoke in real life like Julian from the Famous Five. (His actually reported words, lest we forget, were 'f*ck off back to France you French motherf*cker'.)
What I love about the 'fallout' is it really helps sort out whose side one is on in football, and in life. Ferguson and the United board reportedly initially intended to sack him, but changed their minds, and Ferguson, to his massive credit, went to Paris to sit in a restaurant for hours and woo him back to United. Brian Clough said he would have cut his balls off - no surprise there. Ian Wright confessed he was jealous.
As Smyth stirringly concludes,
'Back then, if you wanted, it was easy to avoid the nonsense. Faux outrage was a minority sport, mainly because, with the information superhighway in its infancy, most people did not have the chance to partake in a public place. You had the papers, teletext, radio and the news bulletins. That was about it. And although there were still plenty of cranks and trolls and toxic liberals about, there was less narcissism and brains were not washed quite as easily. There were no #PrayForSimmons hashtags, or online petitions for Cantona to be deported. Social networking meant going to the game.' [Post edited 28 Jan 1:46]
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| Abuse in modern football on 01:43 - Jan 28 with 1878 views | stainrods_elbow |
| Abuse in modern football on 23:47 - Jan 27 by CiderwithRsie |
Got to agree with this.
Most of us meet and talk to God knows how many people every day. How often do you see a fight or a shouting match break out in normal life, outside of someone being boozed up or just off their head? Hardly ever.
In certain places, though, apparently it's OK*. For some reason, football grounds have been like that since forever, and social media/online is another. On the road quite often another.
There are people on here who have posted gazillions of times without ever starting an argument with anyone, people that I for one will read as soon as I see the avatar. There are others who start a ruck regularly. I bet in a secret ballot 90% of us would put the same names in each category.
* It f ucking isn't. |
Who'd want to live in a culture where no one ever argues with anyone! That certainly wouldn't be my idea of something as ultimately trivial and vital as a football message board, let alone a country. What I like about LfW, its handful of reactionaries/virtue-signallers/moralists/cultists aside, is its feistiness, fractiousness, and fanaticism. Just about all the people here who are worth reading clearly love language, love themselves, and love (or lovehate) QPR. [Post edited 28 Jan 11:43]
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| Abuse in modern football on 09:45 - Jan 28 with 1493 views | ngbqpr |
Read this story on the Beeb last night.
Amongst other things, the 'well manager:
- has a win ratio of 41.3%, the club's highest in over a decade, with 7 other managers having come & gone in that period
- steered them away from relegation with 30 points from 42 in his first 3 months in the job
- during last season enjoyed a 10 game unbeaten run, their longest such run since 2010
...oh and they currently sit 5th in a 12 team league where everyone knows at the start of the season who the top 2 are likely to be. They're above the much bigger Hibs & Hearts & arguably bigger Dundee.
His crimes seem to be:
- a bad run that's lasted a few weeks
- losing to the bottom team last week
- a style of football not all fans like
Blimey! Much as I agree with L Block about the unseemly culture of 'instantism'...surely he's earned the sort of credit in the bank that Marti had with us? |  |
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| Abuse in modern football on 10:08 - Jan 28 with 1443 views | PBLOCK |
I think part of it, as others have said is the instant wants of society
Look at West Ham got rid of Moyes once as they didn’t quite like it, got in shiny Pellegrini he failed. Got Moyes back he wins them their 1st European trophy in 60 odd years and they then get rid to bring in the ex Wolves Manager as he’d managed a couple of big clubs
I think Managers and players have always taken adulation/ stick from football fans since the day the game started
Remember Furlong getting pelters at Rangers early on but coming through it to become a cult hero. The difference was all the abuse then stayed at the ground really he could get home to his family shut the door and get a break from it. Nowadays with all the social media it’s 24/7 365.
I’ve always felt you shouldn’t post anything that you wouldn’t be happy to say to someone face to face. Most of these people who message this type of stuff would be the first ones to want a selfie / autograph of the person they’re having a go at.
It’s a sad state of affairs in all honesty | | | |
| Abuse in modern football on 10:09 - Jan 28 with 1441 views | derbyhoop |
My advice when using social media, including this site
1. You're sending a postcard to the world,I.e. anybody can read it
2. Politeness costs nothing.
3. If you think somebody is an idiot/racist/misogynist/ homophobic or just an a***hole, you can always block them
4. Don't say anything online that you couldn't say to their face |  |
| "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one's lifetime." (Mark Twain)
Find me on twitter @derbyhoop and now on Bluesky |
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| Abuse in modern football on 10:19 - Jan 28 with 1399 views | PunteR |
| Abuse in modern football on 01:43 - Jan 28 by stainrods_elbow |
Who'd want to live in a culture where no one ever argues with anyone! That certainly wouldn't be my idea of something as ultimately trivial and vital as a football message board, let alone a country. What I like about LfW, its handful of reactionaries/virtue-signallers/moralists/cultists aside, is its feistiness, fractiousness, and fanaticism. Just about all the people here who are worth reading clearly love language, love themselves, and love (or lovehate) QPR. [Post edited 28 Jan 11:43]
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I could live without arguing but unfortunately that's not how life works. You have to raise the levels to get your point across and get heard sometimes. Just human nature.
There's also levels of abuse, intrinsically linked to arguing.
If you log into a football message board, giving it out, deliberately trying to wind up individuals, than its fair game. Expect something back, and it might be not what you want or like either.
But we are, on here at least, supposed to be responsible adults, and there are lines that can be crossed, that we should be aware of. The stuff that Clive has had to endure in the past is quite frankly ridiculous and out of order. But he is, whether he likes it or not, in the public eye and clearly there's some loons out there with loads of time on their hands.
Quite how anyone else on here is getting that kind of level of personal abuse dumbfounds me.
I think the online anonymity is an issue. Similar to road rage, where there's a disconnection from the real world and people change when they get behind the wheel. Likewise getting behind the keyboard. A good question to ask yourself is, would your mum, or your close friends and family be proud of your behaviour.?
Football naturally creates a divide, the red side or the blue side, choose one. I dont think abuse within football or society has got better or worse, its probably less physically violent but i think the intentions to hurt someone is still there.
I used to think LFW was like being in a pub where everything was fair game but its not these days. People are getting banged up for things said online (not on here atm) and its only going to get worse, so some individuals are closing ranks. I guess that's fair enough. | |
| Occasional providers of half decent House music. |
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| Abuse in modern football on 10:36 - Jan 28 with 1368 views | TheChef |
| Abuse in modern football on 21:44 - Jan 27 by FredManRave |
This thread could end up being a 10 pager, at least, but I'll simplify it as to how I treat modern life, let alone modern football, in the crazy world that we currently all live in.
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I also like this one.
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| Abuse in modern football on 11:12 - Jan 28 with 1276 views | Paddyhoops |
QPR are the most important small thing in my life. I empathise the small . | | | |
| Abuse in modern football on 11:59 - Jan 28 with 1121 views | stainrods_elbow |
| Abuse in modern football on 10:19 - Jan 28 by PunteR |
I could live without arguing but unfortunately that's not how life works. You have to raise the levels to get your point across and get heard sometimes. Just human nature.
There's also levels of abuse, intrinsically linked to arguing.
If you log into a football message board, giving it out, deliberately trying to wind up individuals, than its fair game. Expect something back, and it might be not what you want or like either.
But we are, on here at least, supposed to be responsible adults, and there are lines that can be crossed, that we should be aware of. The stuff that Clive has had to endure in the past is quite frankly ridiculous and out of order. But he is, whether he likes it or not, in the public eye and clearly there's some loons out there with loads of time on their hands.
Quite how anyone else on here is getting that kind of level of personal abuse dumbfounds me.
I think the online anonymity is an issue. Similar to road rage, where there's a disconnection from the real world and people change when they get behind the wheel. Likewise getting behind the keyboard. A good question to ask yourself is, would your mum, or your close friends and family be proud of your behaviour.?
Football naturally creates a divide, the red side or the blue side, choose one. I dont think abuse within football or society has got better or worse, its probably less physically violent but i think the intentions to hurt someone is still there.
I used to think LFW was like being in a pub where everything was fair game but its not these days. People are getting banged up for things said online (not on here atm) and its only going to get worse, so some individuals are closing ranks. I guess that's fair enough. |
I think a large part of the problem is people who are unable or unwilling to separate the writer from what's written. If you write/put up anything in public space, self-consciously controversial or not, you need to expect it may be enjoyed, challenged, or criticised - or all three! That's because it's not your property any more - it's become public property.
All true writers, artists and makers understand this.
Conversely, as we saw with the utter outrages perpetrated against J K Rowling's person following her piece on transgender, people instead leapt to 'cancelling' her without even, in many cases, paying her the respect of properly reading her, since dealing with a cultivated person's ideas and intelligence might shut them up for a bit. Where people start playing the man rather than the ball and, rather than dealing in opinion and argument, engage in ad hominem/abusive attacks on their self-serving images/caricatures of others, is where it quickly turns to merds.
Essentially, the currency of intelligent/cultural exchange is diminishing as society's narcissistic preoccupation with people's online images (and images of themselves) goes unchecked. It's great days for Instagram and the Twitterarti, and dark days for depth and debate. As W B Yeats put it, 'The best lack all conviction, while the worst / Are full of passionate intensity'. [Post edited 28 Jan 12:05]
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| Abuse in modern football on 12:46 - Jan 28 with 1029 views | slmrstid |
| Abuse in modern football on 22:16 - Jan 27 by kensalriser |
And actually, hardly anything really matters.
People have to find shit to do between mealtimes and sleeping: the root of all humanity's problems. |
At an old job a work colleague went to the nearby burger van one day to buy his lunch and as he was waiting for his bacon & egg bap to cook the lady on the van asked him if he wanted sauce.
After he hesitated she jumped in telling him "don't worry love, it all ends up as a turd in the end anyway".
Deep wisdom. |  | | |
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