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Infection and hospital rates climbing rapidly. Death rates projected at 200 per day. Nearly 4m people at serious risk. New information coming out about the problems Covid cause the body if it doesn’t kill you. People laid up for the best part of a year with serious complications. Concern over the AstraZenica vaccine. Is it really wise to lift most of the restrictions on Monday? We have been told that we aren’t going back into another lockdown situation no matter what, but Whitty seems to think it might have to be on the cards.
[Post edited 18 Jul 2021 9:29]
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Third Covid Wave on 09:07 - Nov 10 with 1417 views
Oh no, don't leave me with this cacophony of covid compliance!
You have been a real tour de force on here when the only question most people are asking is how high should I jump.
Looks like you are on your own now JB. I always wondered if saint68 was on the wind up or doing it for a bet but at least we might see a more reasonable thread now. I don’t think it is a question of how high we should jump. I am sure we have all reservations but have weighed up the same information as you, the other one and MLT and have come to our own conclusions. I am sure non of the stars are absolutely perfect but the overwhelming evidence has shown how devastating the pandemic has been. The whole herd immunity thing on its own has been completely discredited and even for a layman like me it was obvious that the death toll would have been huge and a price not worth paying. The vaccines aren’t new, they are adaptations of current vaccines and have been fast tracked. Vaccines have side effects and some effect a minority severely. It’s a price we pay for protecting the vast majority of people. We can’t even get every country to agree on things like climate change so how the powers that be got together to organise a conspiracy on a global conspiracy god only knows. People are right to ask questions and do. Most people come to the same conclusion despite the best efforts of those minorities trying to convince us otherwise. I respect that you have a different point of view but why spend so much of your time trying to convince others when it is clear that apart from 1 other, no one is interested in strange conspiracy theories?
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Third Covid Wave on 09:41 - Nov 10 with 1394 views
You haven’t answered my question. Why do you support a pill and not a vaccine? The only dirtence between them is one is solid and one is liquid.
Hi Sog, I don't think anyone responded to this. This is not the full answer to the particular issue but one clear difference is that any injection bypasses most of the bodies own defence mechanisms. A pill does not. Covid aside, let's take the example of the polio vaccine. It is arguably better and "healthier" To take the vaccine orally by pill than by injection for this very reason reducing side effects. This was something I discussed with doctor friends when considering vaccinations for my daughter and when we were emigrating.
I believe, subject to be corrected, that the pill is something to take once you have the disease and that it is highly effective at reducing the effects and preventing a life threatening situation arising.
The injected vaccine seeks to attack the disease at the very beginning of its attempt to invade the body, reducing the effects and again hopefully preventing serious illness.
(It will be interesting to see the science about both being used).
Some anti vaxxers I know claim that the pill will reduce the imposition of "a totalitarian regime" being imposed on us all. Not sure that I see that connection, nor that there is anything other than incompetent cock up rather than conspiracy at the heart of Gov't.
I've said elsewhere that this Gov't has not helped itself with its refusal to accept errors were made (even though they threw Hancock under a bus), poor choice of language and an arrogance rarely seen since the last Blair episode. That should not however deflect from the fact that the vaccine and the pill are steps toward a more permanent solution (like the flu vaccine) and not a final answer.
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Third Covid Wave on 18:34 - Nov 10 with 1292 views
You haven’t answered my question. Why do you support a pill and not a vaccine? The only dirtence between them is one is solid and one is liquid.
I'll humour you this last one time (as we aren't quite at my required benchmark)
Just read my last post..digest it, and actually engage what's left of your grey matter to actually digest it. X
And thats 100% my last engagement on this thread..as I actually feel you definitely are struggling to comprehend even more so than that bubble blowing baby Ian.
Oh and Jellybaby, there's only so many times you can try to project a contrary point before it becomes a waste of time and effort, its been an escape for me for a few weeks..and the compliance from the media loving populous has been startling and sadly not surprising mate.
Sage could say yellow is actually black and 99% of the UK would now agree ..take care JB.
I'll humour you this last one time (as we aren't quite at my required benchmark)
Just read my last post..digest it, and actually engage what's left of your grey matter to actually digest it. X
And thats 100% my last engagement on this thread..as I actually feel you definitely are struggling to comprehend even more so than that bubble blowing baby Ian.
Oh and Jellybaby, there's only so many times you can try to project a contrary point before it becomes a waste of time and effort, its been an escape for me for a few weeks..and the compliance from the media loving populous has been startling and sadly not surprising mate.
Sage could say yellow is actually black and 99% of the UK would now agree ..take care JB.
Back off to do your bit for the Flat Earth Society now s68? I bet they have missed you.
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Third Covid Wave on 21:40 - Nov 10 with 1261 views
I'll humour you this last one time (as we aren't quite at my required benchmark)
Just read my last post..digest it, and actually engage what's left of your grey matter to actually digest it. X
And thats 100% my last engagement on this thread..as I actually feel you definitely are struggling to comprehend even more so than that bubble blowing baby Ian.
Oh and Jellybaby, there's only so many times you can try to project a contrary point before it becomes a waste of time and effort, its been an escape for me for a few weeks..and the compliance from the media loving populous has been startling and sadly not surprising mate.
Sage could say yellow is actually black and 99% of the UK would now agree ..take care JB.
Small point of order, but when you project a load of old bollocks its a a waste of time and effort from the off and that doesn't change no matter how many times you repeat it.
I have often thought of this moment in 1936 when the England players were told to do the Nazi salute, except for Stan Cullis, who was subsequently dropped for not conforming.
This seems bad, but in 2020/21 we see people lose their jobs because they want bodily autonomy. kids being given an unlicensed injection that they don't need that may harm them, healthy people being quarantined in hotels and forced to pay for their incarceration, families being kept apart because they didn't live in the same house, peaceful protesters being attacked by the Police etc, etc
Most of the population are sleep walking in to a technocratic future that only a few people, like Ian will actually enjoy...
[Post edited 11 Nov 2021 7:31]
I wholly disapprove of what you say and will defend to the death your right to say it.
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Third Covid Wave on 07:50 - Nov 11 with 1193 views
I have often thought of this moment in 1936 when the England players were told to do the Nazi salute, except for Stan Cullis, who was subsequently dropped for not conforming.
This seems bad, but in 2020/21 we see people lose their jobs because they want bodily autonomy. kids being given an unlicensed injection that they don't need that may harm them, healthy people being quarantined in hotels and forced to pay for their incarceration, families being kept apart because they didn't live in the same house, peaceful protesters being attacked by the Police etc, etc
Most of the population are sleep walking in to a technocratic future that only a few people, like Ian will actually enjoy...
[Post edited 11 Nov 2021 7:31]
If you want to think about the 1930s, perhaps think about how half the German population were hoodwinked by a group of nutcases into thinking that all Germany's woes were the result of a global Jewish/communist conspiracy.
Most of the conspiracy theorists who you so admire are using the same play book. Dark forces at work, inherent freedoms under threat - all that bollocks.
I have often thought of this moment in 1936 when the England players were told to do the Nazi salute, except for Stan Cullis, who was subsequently dropped for not conforming.
This seems bad, but in 2020/21 we see people lose their jobs because they want bodily autonomy. kids being given an unlicensed injection that they don't need that may harm them, healthy people being quarantined in hotels and forced to pay for their incarceration, families being kept apart because they didn't live in the same house, peaceful protesters being attacked by the Police etc, etc
Most of the population are sleep walking in to a technocratic future that only a few people, like Ian will actually enjoy...
[Post edited 11 Nov 2021 7:31]
"Bodily Autonomy" - a concept that seems to have been invented as a means to enable people afraid of injections to believe they have a moral justification. The problem is that someone with "Bodily Autonomy" also has the autonomy to take their infectious body anywhere they feel. If the notorious asymptomatic Typhoid Mary was a school cook at your children's school - would her "bodily autonomy" entitle her to anonymity as a human right, knowing that to continue working there regardless of the risks she would inevitably introduce might harm your children with a statistically higher probability than the statistically insignificant and spurious "side effects" of vaccines that you say are a reason not to take?
[Post edited 11 Nov 2021 15:10]
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Third Covid Wave on 15:24 - Nov 11 with 1090 views
If you want to think about the 1930s, perhaps think about how half the German population were hoodwinked by a group of nutcases into thinking that all Germany's woes were the result of a global Jewish/communist conspiracy.
Most of the conspiracy theorists who you so admire are using the same play book. Dark forces at work, inherent freedoms under threat - all that bollocks.
I have often thought of this moment in 1936 when the England players were told to do the Nazi salute, except for Stan Cullis, who was subsequently dropped for not conforming.
This seems bad, but in 2020/21 we see people lose their jobs because they want bodily autonomy. kids being given an unlicensed injection that they don't need that may harm them, healthy people being quarantined in hotels and forced to pay for their incarceration, families being kept apart because they didn't live in the same house, peaceful protesters being attacked by the Police etc, etc
Most of the population are sleep walking in to a technocratic future that only a few people, like Ian will actually enjoy...
[Post edited 11 Nov 2021 7:31]
As a rule of thumb it is generally accepted when someone throws the Nazis into their argument they know they have lost it 😉
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Third Covid Wave on 18:07 - Nov 11 with 1034 views
If you want to think about the 1930s, perhaps think about how half the German population were hoodwinked by a group of nutcases into thinking that all Germany's woes were the result of a global Jewish/communist conspiracy.
Most of the conspiracy theorists who you so admire are using the same play book. Dark forces at work, inherent freedoms under threat - all that bollocks.
Not like you to use the word "Nutcase" Ian and sidestep the argument altogether....
I wholly disapprove of what you say and will defend to the death your right to say it.
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Third Covid Wave on 18:20 - Nov 11 with 1028 views
"Bodily Autonomy" - a concept that seems to have been invented as a means to enable people afraid of injections to believe they have a moral justification. The problem is that someone with "Bodily Autonomy" also has the autonomy to take their infectious body anywhere they feel. If the notorious asymptomatic Typhoid Mary was a school cook at your children's school - would her "bodily autonomy" entitle her to anonymity as a human right, knowing that to continue working there regardless of the risks she would inevitably introduce might harm your children with a statistically higher probability than the statistically insignificant and spurious "side effects" of vaccines that you say are a reason not to take?
[Post edited 11 Nov 2021 15:10]
statistically insignificant and spurious side effects of the vaccine you say, try telling that to family members who have lost loved ones who were perfectly fine before the jab, or my friend Mark who can't work anymore because of "spurious " side effects.
Are you happy for the state to have control over your body? To tell you how much you can eat and drink for example, really??
I wholly disapprove of what you say and will defend to the death your right to say it.
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Third Covid Wave on 18:36 - Nov 11 with 1022 views
Yes, completely inadequate word for an evil regime and the same word that you have directed at so called conspiracy theorists who point out to people the dangers of autocratic state power and medicine having unfettered free range.
I wholly disapprove of what you say and will defend to the death your right to say it.
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Third Covid Wave on 18:51 - Nov 11 with 1014 views
statistically insignificant and spurious side effects of the vaccine you say, try telling that to family members who have lost loved ones who were perfectly fine before the jab, or my friend Mark who can't work anymore because of "spurious " side effects.
Are you happy for the state to have control over your body? To tell you how much you can eat and drink for example, really??
Yes I will tell it to anyone who can understand and compare numbers and I'll back up my argument with anyone. First, people will die having had the vaccine because many many old people (and younger people too) are going to die anyway whether or not they have had a jab. There is good actuarial data on death rates - what you should be looking for is deviation from that, not just anecotes of individual deaths. You might as well try and correlate eating raspberry jelly as a cause of death in a care home and you'll find plenty of "cases" and plenty of apparent symptoms . If you set out with a presupposition of a cause, then every death you are going to ascribe to that cause - hence we read rubbish about covid jabs having myriad "side effects". If there is a direct causation you find the same symptoms. Your last sentence is the kind of paranoid garbage I find it hard to argue with because I'd expect it to come from a child or a half wit.
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Third Covid Wave on 18:55 - Nov 11 with 1011 views
What? Are you saying we should not learn from one of the darkest episodes of history?
Go and look up Godwin's Law - which Ian was alluding to. I expect there is a corrolary to it somewhere that refers to the huffing outrage and indignation of the person attempting to bring Nazism into an unrelated argument too.
Yes, completely inadequate word for an evil regime and the same word that you have directed at so called conspiracy theorists who point out to people the dangers of autocratic state power and medicine having unfettered free range.
You might not like the analogy and I get the impression that you don't know that much about the Nazis and how they came to power, but the idea of a Jewish conspiracy against Germany and of communists coming to take away German freedoms was central to their simplistic message. In fact the idea of someone - communists, liberals, immigrants - coming to take away 'freedom' is central to so much extreme right wing propaganda.
You are not a Nazi, but you present a view of the world in which sinister forces are conspiring to take away our freedoms. You might think you have stumble upon the secret to the world. I just see you as another in a long line of misguided individuals.
And anyone who genuinely believes this sort of nonsense it, to my mind, a nutcase.
You might not like the analogy and I get the impression that you don't know that much about the Nazis and how they came to power, but the idea of a Jewish conspiracy against Germany and of communists coming to take away German freedoms was central to their simplistic message. In fact the idea of someone - communists, liberals, immigrants - coming to take away 'freedom' is central to so much extreme right wing propaganda.
You are not a Nazi, but you present a view of the world in which sinister forces are conspiring to take away our freedoms. You might think you have stumble upon the secret to the world. I just see you as another in a long line of misguided individuals.
And anyone who genuinely believes this sort of nonsense it, to my mind, a nutcase.
Even by your own low standards, you have excelled your self Ian.
The Nazi salute post was about compliance towards a despotic regime who should have been resisted and particularly how only one brave player - Stan Cullis said he would not comply. We have despotic leaders now who are sacking people that won't take a jab and people like you think that is okay and that the state has charge over our bodies!
My main beef is with the Elites who are turning away from democracy and charging towards technocracy, but there is culpability if we, the people let that happen.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer, who was murdered by the Nazis for protesting against them was spot on; “Stupidity is a more dangerous enemy of the good than malice. One may protest against evil; it can be exposed and, if need be, prevented by use of force. Evil always carries within itself the germ of its own subversion in that it leaves behind in human beings at least a sense of unease. Against stupidity we are defenseless. Neither protests nor the use of force accomplish anything here; reasons fall on deaf ears; facts that contradict one’s prejudgment simply need not be believed — in such moments the stupid person even becomes critical — and when facts are irrefutable they are just pushed aside as inconsequential, as incidental. In all this the stupid person, in contrast to the malicious one, is utterly self satisfied and, being easily irritated, becomes dangerous by going on the attack. For that reason, greater caution is called for when dealing with a stupid person than with a malicious one. Never again will we try to persuade the stupid person with reasons, for it is senseless and dangerous.”
I wholly disapprove of what you say and will defend to the death your right to say it.
Even by your own low standards, you have excelled your self Ian.
The Nazi salute post was about compliance towards a despotic regime who should have been resisted and particularly how only one brave player - Stan Cullis said he would not comply. We have despotic leaders now who are sacking people that won't take a jab and people like you think that is okay and that the state has charge over our bodies!
My main beef is with the Elites who are turning away from democracy and charging towards technocracy, but there is culpability if we, the people let that happen.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer, who was murdered by the Nazis for protesting against them was spot on; “Stupidity is a more dangerous enemy of the good than malice. One may protest against evil; it can be exposed and, if need be, prevented by use of force. Evil always carries within itself the germ of its own subversion in that it leaves behind in human beings at least a sense of unease. Against stupidity we are defenseless. Neither protests nor the use of force accomplish anything here; reasons fall on deaf ears; facts that contradict one’s prejudgment simply need not be believed — in such moments the stupid person even becomes critical — and when facts are irrefutable they are just pushed aside as inconsequential, as incidental. In all this the stupid person, in contrast to the malicious one, is utterly self satisfied and, being easily irritated, becomes dangerous by going on the attack. For that reason, greater caution is called for when dealing with a stupid person than with a malicious one. Never again will we try to persuade the stupid person with reasons, for it is senseless and dangerous.”
The foolishness in your thinking is to even begin to think that political resistance/dissent in relation to the Nazis is in anyway equivalent to having a difference of opinion about health policy in relation to Covid.
The better analogy would be the anti-vax dissent drummed up by Andrew Wakefield around MMR.
Was he fighting a one-man battle against Nazi-like authoritarian rule? No, no one could reproduce his results and he was ultimately struck off.
Even by your own low standards, you have excelled your self Ian.
The Nazi salute post was about compliance towards a despotic regime who should have been resisted and particularly how only one brave player - Stan Cullis said he would not comply. We have despotic leaders now who are sacking people that won't take a jab and people like you think that is okay and that the state has charge over our bodies!
My main beef is with the Elites who are turning away from democracy and charging towards technocracy, but there is culpability if we, the people let that happen.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer, who was murdered by the Nazis for protesting against them was spot on; “Stupidity is a more dangerous enemy of the good than malice. One may protest against evil; it can be exposed and, if need be, prevented by use of force. Evil always carries within itself the germ of its own subversion in that it leaves behind in human beings at least a sense of unease. Against stupidity we are defenseless. Neither protests nor the use of force accomplish anything here; reasons fall on deaf ears; facts that contradict one’s prejudgment simply need not be believed — in such moments the stupid person even becomes critical — and when facts are irrefutable they are just pushed aside as inconsequential, as incidental. In all this the stupid person, in contrast to the malicious one, is utterly self satisfied and, being easily irritated, becomes dangerous by going on the attack. For that reason, greater caution is called for when dealing with a stupid person than with a malicious one. Never again will we try to persuade the stupid person with reasons, for it is senseless and dangerous.”
You put up a theory of stupidity having claimed that Covid vaccination is a way for the Government to control the people. How many officials and ministers do you think would have to be in on such a conspiracy and all of them to remain completely silent, to their friends and family for this to work, when not even tiny acts of criminality in the country remains secret for long? How do you get 140 countries to all agree to be "in" on this conspiracy? And again, how do you get all the officials in all of them to keep silent? And that includes all the communication enablers too who aren't even part of the state. Why do you think "they" need to control you anyway? "They" can control you in ways far easier than this and without any paranoid nonsense. If you want to start trading on the myriad laws of rhetorical fallacy we seem to have arrived back at Dunning Krueger again.
I believe, subject to be corrected, that the pill is something to take once you have the disease and that it is highly effective at reducing the effects and preventing a life threatening situation arising.
The injected vaccine seeks to attack the disease at the very beginning of its attempt to invade the body, reducing the effects and again hopefully preventing serious illness.
(It will be interesting to see the science about both being used).
Some anti vaxxers I know claim that the pill will reduce the imposition of "a totalitarian regime" being imposed on us all. Not sure that I see that connection, nor that there is anything other than incompetent cock up rather than conspiracy at the heart of Gov't.
I've said elsewhere that this Gov't has not helped itself with its refusal to accept errors were made (even though they threw Hancock under a bus), poor choice of language and an arrogance rarely seen since the last Blair episode. That should not however deflect from the fact that the vaccine and the pill are steps toward a more permanent solution (like the flu vaccine) and not a final answer.
Good response. Incidentally, the Pfizer pill is about 50% effective if I recall correctly, and only works when administered after the positive confirmation, it cannot be used prophylactically. This is the same as hydroxychloroquine administered in the same way, but the Pfizer treatment is much more expensive. Some of the wild claims about hydroxychoroquine (and the horse parasite treatment) used prophylactically have damaged the understanding of the benefits of it being used efficaciously for hospitalised cases.
Just to emphasise, both are only 50% effective, so the need for vaccinations still pertains.
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