| Why things have gone wrong 08:18 - Apr 3 with 6374 views | Heisenberg |
We went on an amazing unbeaten run and looked like we could get automatic promotion but now look a shadow of that team. Would suggest change is down to.
1. Trying to accommodate Stephens into a settled back four. It’s no coincidence that since he returned the defence has looked poor. This has exposed Bazunu whose confidence looks shot.
2. RM is a one trick pony. We have been found out by opposing teams.
3. I don’t think the players are fit enough. It’s why we concede so many late goals.
4. Lack of leadership / experience. We should have brought in one or two old heads who can direct things in the centre of the park. |  |
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| Why things have gone wrong on 08:28 - Apr 3 with 5458 views | PatfromPoole |
At the risk of being a broken record, we needed to sign a striker in January.
We had no credible central attacking options to come off the bench on Monday, and it cost us. As with the Boro game on Friday.
Touch wood, we have actually have been lucky with injuries, not to have been without Adam Armstrong or Che Adams through injury for long periods this season.
There seems to be a feeling of inevitability about how this season is going to pan out. Hardly anybody I speak to thinks we will win the play-offs.
I however still cling on to some hope, and think that the time for a real post-mortem is in June, not now. [Post edited 3 Apr 8:28]
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| Why things have gone wrong on 09:06 - Apr 3 with 5384 views | robcoe5 |
If you watch top sides when they don’t have the ball
, there is a defence of 5 to get passed as the midfield sit in to help at Southampton we are always caught with just a back three, this is due to trying to push to far forward when we attack.
We play with three midfield players and a centre forward and 2 wingers not sure I can think of any other side who play so open. If you got attacking full backs you don’t need two wingers |  | | |
| Why things have gone wrong on 10:09 - Apr 3 with 5315 views | saintmark1976 |
It’s gone wrong because of one person and one person only :- Russell Martin.
It’s widely accepted that we have the best and certainly the most experienced and expensive squad in The Championship yet he has failed to achieve automatic promotion.
Why has Martin been unable to do what any half decent manager would have done? :-
1. His one dimensional tippy tappy possession based tactics with season long no plan B.
2. His continuous match to match changing of the starting eleven.
3. His complete and utter inability to use substitutes to either change or close out a game.
4. His insistence in allowing Bazunu to start every league game.
Had Martin been able to avoid even one or two of the failings listed above I’m confident that we would have finished the current season in a top two position.
In summary, a marvellous opportunity to make an immediate return to the top flight missed because of one man’s intransigence. | |
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| Why things have gone wrong on 10:45 - Apr 3 with 5251 views | 1885_SFC |
| Why things have gone wrong on 10:09 - Apr 3 by saintmark1976 |
It’s gone wrong because of one person and one person only :- Russell Martin.
It’s widely accepted that we have the best and certainly the most experienced and expensive squad in The Championship yet he has failed to achieve automatic promotion.
Why has Martin been unable to do what any half decent manager would have done? :-
1. His one dimensional tippy tappy possession based tactics with season long no plan B.
2. His continuous match to match changing of the starting eleven.
3. His complete and utter inability to use substitutes to either change or close out a game.
4. His insistence in allowing Bazunu to start every league game.
Had Martin been able to avoid even one or two of the failings listed above I’m confident that we would have finished the current season in a top two position.
In summary, a marvellous opportunity to make an immediate return to the top flight missed because of one man’s intransigence. |
Sums it all up nicely for me! |  |
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| Why things have gone wrong on 10:59 - Apr 3 with 5235 views | PatfromPoole |
| Why things have gone wrong on 10:09 - Apr 3 by saintmark1976 |
It’s gone wrong because of one person and one person only :- Russell Martin.
It’s widely accepted that we have the best and certainly the most experienced and expensive squad in The Championship yet he has failed to achieve automatic promotion.
Why has Martin been unable to do what any half decent manager would have done? :-
1. His one dimensional tippy tappy possession based tactics with season long no plan B.
2. His continuous match to match changing of the starting eleven.
3. His complete and utter inability to use substitutes to either change or close out a game.
4. His insistence in allowing Bazunu to start every league game.
Had Martin been able to avoid even one or two of the failings listed above I’m confident that we would have finished the current season in a top two position.
In summary, a marvellous opportunity to make an immediate return to the top flight missed because of one man’s intransigence. |
Leicester have the most experienced and expensive squad by a distance.
Our wage bill is the second highest in the League, but theirs is 50% higher than ours.
Their salaries are insane for this division.
Vardy £140k a week, Winks £90k a week, several others on £70k a week or more, including Vestergaard.
If we end up playing them in the play-off final, the stakes will rarely have been higher in terms of potential financial oblivion for the loser. | |
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| Why things have gone wrong on 11:16 - Apr 3 with 5197 views | Ifonly |
The posts above sum it up well but I would add one thing - the lack of fight, or the will to win, or you could call it a winning mentality. I don't see it in our players. Ipswich have it and we don't. Sometimes we seem to have a will to lose, or don't believe that we can win convincingly so we sit back and defend what we've got with inevitable results. This is linked to RM's possession tactics. Once we get ahead we're too intent on holding possession and seem frightened of losing the ball. [Post edited 3 Apr 11:20]
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| Why things have gone wrong on 11:20 - Apr 3 with 5181 views | saintmark1976 |
| Why things have gone wrong on 10:59 - Apr 3 by PatfromPoole |
Leicester have the most experienced and expensive squad by a distance.
Our wage bill is the second highest in the League, but theirs is 50% higher than ours.
Their salaries are insane for this division.
Vardy £140k a week, Winks £90k a week, several others on £70k a week or more, including Vestergaard.
If we end up playing them in the play-off final, the stakes will rarely have been higher in terms of potential financial oblivion for the loser. |
I bow to your superior knowledge Pat reference wages paid and agree that the amounts paid are insane, many would say immoral.
Even accepting that our wage bill is only the second highest, we are currently 11 points adrift of Leicester and that’s because of the reasons I previously detailed.
It’s down to one person and one person only in my opinion. | |
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| Why things have gone wrong on 11:29 - Apr 3 with 5164 views | Centurion |
Possibly a simplistic answer but;
a. We needed to buy an experienced competent goalkeeper who could command the defence, especially the six yard area and thus instil confidence and direction in the defence.
b. A competent and experienced attacker (not crocked), who could instil confidence in the team that we were going to take our chances. Scare the shit out of the opposition. | | | |
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| Why things have gone wrong on 11:36 - Apr 3 with 5149 views | felly1 |
| Why things have gone wrong on 09:06 - Apr 3 by robcoe5 |
If you watch top sides when they don’t have the ball
, there is a defence of 5 to get passed as the midfield sit in to help at Southampton we are always caught with just a back three, this is due to trying to push to far forward when we attack.
We play with three midfield players and a centre forward and 2 wingers not sure I can think of any other side who play so open. If you got attacking full backs you don’t need two wingers |
I agree with this.
We are way too open, Swansea under Martin were exactly the same.
The tactics and style is quite entertaining and at times very pleasing on the eye, but it's a bit of a horror show defensively.
We lack strength in midfield and we have a keeper who is good with distribution and coming off his line quick but is pretty terrible at stopping shots going in.
The manager deserves to be partly blamed for this but so does the club as they knew his background.
For me we give him next season on the premise that the new DOF sits him down and explains we need some pragmatism along with the possession ideology.
If he's not prepared to compromise then bin him off.
Stephens is an easy scapegoat.
I actually think he's played quite well since he's come back into the side.
The downturn in our fortunes occurred at home to Huddersfield.
Although we ended up winning we were 3-1 down against a poor team.
Stephens didn't feature.
We then lost two out of our next three games and the only game Stephens played was the the win at West Brom where his clearance off the line kept the score at one nil.
During our unbeaten run we got lucky at times, dodgy draws and last minute goals masked some indifferent performances.
It's hard to see us going up via the playoffs.
We look too mentally weak.
Nest season we have to bring in a better keeper and a couple of experienced CDMs and CBs and hope Ross Stewart actually gets fit. | | | |
| Why things have gone wrong on 11:44 - Apr 3 with 5132 views | JoeEgg |
| Why things have gone wrong on 10:09 - Apr 3 by saintmark1976 |
It’s gone wrong because of one person and one person only :- Russell Martin.
It’s widely accepted that we have the best and certainly the most experienced and expensive squad in The Championship yet he has failed to achieve automatic promotion.
Why has Martin been unable to do what any half decent manager would have done? :-
1. His one dimensional tippy tappy possession based tactics with season long no plan B.
2. His continuous match to match changing of the starting eleven.
3. His complete and utter inability to use substitutes to either change or close out a game.
4. His insistence in allowing Bazunu to start every league game.
Had Martin been able to avoid even one or two of the failings listed above I’m confident that we would have finished the current season in a top two position.
In summary, a marvellous opportunity to make an immediate return to the top flight missed because of one man’s intransigence. |
Absolutely spot on. But I doubt if anything will change - certainly RM wont!! | | | |
| Why things have gone wrong on 12:29 - Apr 3 with 5062 views | PatfromPoole |
| Why things have gone wrong on 11:36 - Apr 3 by felly1 |
I agree with this.
We are way too open, Swansea under Martin were exactly the same.
The tactics and style is quite entertaining and at times very pleasing on the eye, but it's a bit of a horror show defensively.
We lack strength in midfield and we have a keeper who is good with distribution and coming off his line quick but is pretty terrible at stopping shots going in.
The manager deserves to be partly blamed for this but so does the club as they knew his background.
For me we give him next season on the premise that the new DOF sits him down and explains we need some pragmatism along with the possession ideology.
If he's not prepared to compromise then bin him off.
Stephens is an easy scapegoat.
I actually think he's played quite well since he's come back into the side.
The downturn in our fortunes occurred at home to Huddersfield.
Although we ended up winning we were 3-1 down against a poor team.
Stephens didn't feature.
We then lost two out of our next three games and the only game Stephens played was the the win at West Brom where his clearance off the line kept the score at one nil.
During our unbeaten run we got lucky at times, dodgy draws and last minute goals masked some indifferent performances.
It's hard to see us going up via the playoffs.
We look too mentally weak.
Nest season we have to bring in a better keeper and a couple of experienced CDMs and CBs and hope Ross Stewart actually gets fit. |
Agree with a lot of this.
I think the 25-match unbeaten run involved quite a lot of luck, and a lot of the games were very winnable at that time.
I also think Jack Stephens has played quite well.
The mental weakness thing is a biggie. Pardew used to refer to it as a winning mentality. Ipswich clearly seem to have this, Leeds as well now. Not so sure about Leicester..... | |
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| Why things have gone wrong on 12:36 - Apr 3 with 5057 views | PaleRider |
Many good points so far. I don't want to repeat what has been said so far but my additional views, for what they are worth, are as follows:
RM is at best a competent Championship manager. As well as being tactically one-dimensional he seems incapable of being able to motivate players to perform at a consistently high standard.
Our players are mediocre - unfortunately a better manager might have been able to get more out of them, but their mental fragility has been an issue for a number of seasons now. If they are not motivated in a reasonably successful team, imagine what they would be like if Saints were struggling!
Based on the above, it is ironically even more important to get rid of RM if Saints do go up. I shudder to think of next season in the PL when Saints are likely to be scrapping for survival. | | | |
| Why things have gone wrong on 14:38 - Apr 3 with 4947 views | TimSaint |
1. We are predictable with our style of play
2. Teams know how to play against us - high press and the mistakes arrive
3. We don't kill teams off when on top
4. We always gift teams chances / goals, then the panic sets in
5. Frequently change what was an established back 4
6. Stubborn Manager that drops players for errors, so doesn't field his best 11
7. Often bizarre subs (some as punishment to players for making errors)
8. Never any urgency about the team - same old tippy tappy even when losing
9. We miss too many sitters
10. Only 3 clean sheets in the league in 2024
I can go on if needed !! |  |
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| Why things have gone wrong on 14:51 - Apr 3 with 4929 views | SaintEPW |
Agree - there is something in the mentality of the team that is not quite right. Hard to define it exactly.
The team played with amazing will to win coming back from one goal down - and they kept going in an amazing game to watch- Saints were non stop going for it - and showing great passing skill and maintaining possession. Lets give some credit for the much of performance. Surely, Martin deserves masses of credit for the way the team played in the bulk of the game.
Maybe " defensive intensity " ???? - is the word ? If you slow down the video of game and look at the positions of the Saints players when Ipswich goals were scored. There are enough players back - so its not the possession style that is the issue defensively with each goal. The players back and simply quite sharp enough - not tight and not intense enough.
1st goal - two players ball watching with Bree not at all close to the winger who got the ball to score- and neither did he get in a block on the shot which was also possible.
2nd goal. Players back - Armstrong simply does not get close to the player who scores - does not seem to know what to do when he gets back - yet he makes the effort.
3rd Goal - laughable in that we had plenty players back - three were watching a man on the ground - yet no one got a foot on the ball. Its like they are in a daze when they get back.
Is that the Martin effect - everyone is almost drugged to staying calm in possession - yet there is very low defensive intensity when oppo gets the ball.
I cannot imagine Romeu sitting back and watching - he was remarkable at getting hold of the ball from oppo in dangerous positions. We seem to have a team that lacks that intensity or nous. Its not any particular individual | | | |
| Why things have gone wrong on 14:55 - Apr 3 with 4920 views | saint22 |
| Why things have gone wrong on 14:38 - Apr 3 by TimSaint |
1. We are predictable with our style of play
2. Teams know how to play against us - high press and the mistakes arrive
3. We don't kill teams off when on top
4. We always gift teams chances / goals, then the panic sets in
5. Frequently change what was an established back 4
6. Stubborn Manager that drops players for errors, so doesn't field his best 11
7. Often bizarre subs (some as punishment to players for making errors)
8. Never any urgency about the team - same old tippy tappy even when losing
9. We miss too many sitters
10. Only 3 clean sheets in the league in 2024
I can go on if needed !! |
All above has been said before
We all see it
Wussell doesn’t
He said we need to win 8 games to be in with a chance! Thanks
We wouldn’t if you hadn’t made such ridiculous decisions and choices the last 10
And as posted many times it all started with the return of Stephen’s and disrupting a solid defence
When do we last play a bavkn4 the same two games running??
Tinkering wins nothing | | | |
| Why things have gone wrong on 14:57 - Apr 3 with 4922 views | A1079 |
| Why things have gone wrong on 14:51 - Apr 3 by SaintEPW |
Agree - there is something in the mentality of the team that is not quite right. Hard to define it exactly.
The team played with amazing will to win coming back from one goal down - and they kept going in an amazing game to watch- Saints were non stop going for it - and showing great passing skill and maintaining possession. Lets give some credit for the much of performance. Surely, Martin deserves masses of credit for the way the team played in the bulk of the game.
Maybe " defensive intensity " ???? - is the word ? If you slow down the video of game and look at the positions of the Saints players when Ipswich goals were scored. There are enough players back - so its not the possession style that is the issue defensively with each goal. The players back and simply quite sharp enough - not tight and not intense enough.
1st goal - two players ball watching with Bree not at all close to the winger who got the ball to score- and neither did he get in a block on the shot which was also possible.
2nd goal. Players back - Armstrong simply does not get close to the player who scores - does not seem to know what to do when he gets back - yet he makes the effort.
3rd Goal - laughable in that we had plenty players back - three were watching a man on the ground - yet no one got a foot on the ball. Its like they are in a daze when they get back.
Is that the Martin effect - everyone is almost drugged to staying calm in possession - yet there is very low defensive intensity when oppo gets the ball.
I cannot imagine Romeu sitting back and watching - he was remarkable at getting hold of the ball from oppo in dangerous positions. We seem to have a team that lacks that intensity or nous. Its not any particular individual |
I think your last paragraph almost hits the nail on the head - we don't have a Romeu type player (or a Jimmy Case or an Alan Ball or a Glenn Cockerill - showing my age now!) | | | |
| Why things have gone wrong on 15:44 - Apr 3 with 4880 views | saint901 |
There is a lot of the above which is correct and I agree with and some I don't.
First "gone wrong"?
We are 4th - may get to 3rd. (Could still get to 1st/2nd but unlikely). We recognised at day 1 of the season that we were at least two players short of what we needed. So is getting to 3rd/4th with a chance of promotion "gone wrong"? Many clubs would give a lot to be in the same position.
If you mean that we have underachieved based on salary bill, experience/quality of players, investment, then I would agree. Whilst I do not think that the bigger the wage bill the better the chance of success, it does denote better quality players and therefore we should be doing better.
There is a thought that the team plays in a style that is too easy to counter and disrupt and that they are poor at defending if the ball is lost and shifted upfield quickly. That fault has been exposed recently because other teams have watched us and interrupting our system is relatively easy because it relies upon ALL of our players ALL the time being happy and confident with the ball and that is an impossible situation to be in ALL the time. Opposition can wait for an error (too many recently) or just sit in one shape and force the error.
Once the ball is lost and is moving against us quickly, we are exposed because we push so many players forward.
Smallbone, Downes, Aribo, SA are all committed forward and especially in the last 15 minutes are tired. Lack of condition? Perhaps.
Another issue with the RM way is that there is no plan B. A system that says ALL the players are part of a short passing game which presses the opposition cannot easily adapt to a more defensive strategy because we just don't have the players for that. No, the players we have are coached to play one way for the whole game. They cannot switch from one mode to another.
It's arguable that RM should have his bench full of defensive players so that if we are winning at 70 minutes he can use them to change the system. That requires hours of practice and drills with (for example) three CBs and two FB's pushed on. There is no evidence that we can do that.
You then mention the soft issues of leadership and trust. Back in the days of blood and thunder football when the odd leg breaker was allowed, then a player prepared to run himself ragged and put in the tackles was sensible. These days? not so much and fior me makes little difference. | | | |
| Why things have gone wrong on 16:55 - Apr 3 with 4803 views | Bridders2 |
| Why things have gone wrong on 14:38 - Apr 3 by TimSaint |
1. We are predictable with our style of play
2. Teams know how to play against us - high press and the mistakes arrive
3. We don't kill teams off when on top
4. We always gift teams chances / goals, then the panic sets in
5. Frequently change what was an established back 4
6. Stubborn Manager that drops players for errors, so doesn't field his best 11
7. Often bizarre subs (some as punishment to players for making errors)
8. Never any urgency about the team - same old tippy tappy even when losing
9. We miss too many sitters
10. Only 3 clean sheets in the league in 2024
I can go on if needed !! |
All good points. I would add, that we don't attack quickly enough. Our build up is painfully slow and allows opposition to organise their defence, Leicester, Leeds and Ipswich win the ball and go straight for the jugular!...they attack in numbers and score. Liverpool and City are masters of this. City do a couple of passes around the back, THEN it's forwards at high speed.
Our second goal was exactly how it's done, run at the opposition and don't give them time to settle, BUT we do it so little. RM has to change his system to accommodate this, but we all know it won't happen. | | | |
| Why things have gone wrong on 17:09 - Apr 3 with 4765 views | saint22 |
| Why things have gone wrong on 16:55 - Apr 3 by Bridders2 |
All good points. I would add, that we don't attack quickly enough. Our build up is painfully slow and allows opposition to organise their defence, Leicester, Leeds and Ipswich win the ball and go straight for the jugular!...they attack in numbers and score. Liverpool and City are masters of this. City do a couple of passes around the back, THEN it's forwards at high speed.
Our second goal was exactly how it's done, run at the opposition and don't give them time to settle, BUT we do it so little. RM has to change his system to accommodate this, but we all know it won't happen. |
we haven't attacked quickly for years, not since Mane and Pelle
Whenever our keeper gets the ball he stops and slows it all down, never releases Fraser etc quickly for a counter
Numerous other teams attack at will from their keeper but not us, was always the same with AM too we just dont look forward, our CB's too, always look for the slow sideways pass never the ball to split defences and send an attacker away | | | |
| Why things have gone wrong on 17:13 - Apr 3 with 4758 views | 1ASIN12 |
Have they gone wrong or are we where we should be which is the 4th best team in the championship. ?
Some may argue that Ipswich should on paper be below us but if you looked at their form in the 2nd half of last season is it really a surprise they continued that this season ? Personally I predicted them and Leicester would go up automatically.
The reason why we are not fighting with the top 3 has been stated many times on this thread.
The bottom line teams know it doesn’t matter how little they have the ball we will give them a chance and there’s a good chance they’ll score from it .
I’d be pleasantly surprised if we get to the Play off final I’d be amazed if we actually win it .
We need a settled team now ( as much as possible) for the last 8 games a get a bit of momentum going . The trouble is tying to get that motivation to get the momentum as we have what the equivalent of 8 end of season games with not a lot to play for . | | | |
| Why things have gone wrong on 17:48 - Apr 3 with 4684 views | UTS1885 |
It’s all become very predictable, we start with tempo and get a goal and dominate possession. But into the second half this fades and energy levels drop in midfield especially. We concede many goals because the fullbacks are out of position. Amazingly this is exactly the blueprint of the woeful management of Hasenhuttl that led to relegation. Playing a high line may look attractive like top PL teams, but you need the players to pull it off. |  | | |
| Why things have gone wrong on 18:05 - Apr 3 with 4660 views | PatfromPoole |
This thread is ridiculous.
Why is nobody blaming the fans?
#fansfault | |
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| Why things have gone wrong on 18:21 - Apr 3 with 4631 views | saint901 |
| Why things have gone wrong on 18:05 - Apr 3 by PatfromPoole |
This thread is ridiculous.
Why is nobody blaming the fans?
#fansfault |
They have had a hand in this.
I seem to remember booing after a poor first half in the middle of a record breaking run? WTF was that about?
For me, a ST holder from First Div to PL, it was great winning games and watching us play really well. When we started losing matches in the PL and the fight departed the team it became a chore going to matches, knowing that we would play poorly and that what should be a 40 drive home would take me twice that.
The last season with Ralph was the clincher. I hated the way he would hide during and at the end of games.
I'm now a member and can select the games I want.
So am I guilty of being a fair weather fan? Probably. But I want to go and support the team and when you see them play a ragged system against frankly better sides, week after week and the manager do literally nothing, it's difficult to get behind them. And I was not alone in that.
This season the fans have been fickle, but that's what they are. We want to be entertained and the boring side to side with occasional scuffs at goal is boring to watch and unfortunately not very successful. | | | |
| Why things have gone wrong on 20:56 - Apr 3 with 4497 views | Southamptonfan |
A good striker would have seen us with 6 to 10 more points. Ipswich brought in Kieffer Moor. He has scored some goals, won them games. We tend to flicker around the edges instead of just going for it and bringing in a really good striker. Yes, the goals conceded have been an issue, but a decent striker would have scored those chances that Adams missed against Middlesbrough. We would have finished off Watford and Huddersfield too. | |
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| Why things have gone wrong on 04:59 - Apr 4 with 4328 views | dirk_doone |
| Why things have gone wrong on 20:56 - Apr 3 by Southamptonfan |
A good striker would have seen us with 6 to 10 more points. Ipswich brought in Kieffer Moor. He has scored some goals, won them games. We tend to flicker around the edges instead of just going for it and bringing in a really good striker. Yes, the goals conceded have been an issue, but a decent striker would have scored those chances that Adams missed against Middlesbrough. We would have finished off Watford and Huddersfield too. |
An average goalkeeper would have seen us top of the league. If we'd had a reliable goalscorer as well, we'd have been breaking records. |  |
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