| Bristol City Match Fred 14:59 - Dec 1 with 41524 views | TheChef |
Fully expecting a defeat, but hope we can put in a decent performance over 90 minutes and get our reward for it. |  |
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| Bristol City Match Fred on 23:35 - Dec 1 with 1800 views | Antti_Heinola |
| Bristol City Match Fred on 23:12 - Dec 1 by Hunterhoop |
He’s actually seen the lowest wage bill reduction YoY of any manager since Redknapp.
Check the accounts. We don’t yet know the wage bill for last season, but for the season before it was £20m total down from £70m in the Prem (over 4 seasons). Warburton then took over and estimated were rumoured to be we may have squeezed it down to £17m for last season (we’ll find out in April). But yeah, he hasn’t had the wage bill “slashed” at all. He’s also been allowed to actually pay transfer fees for players although I’m sure that was a committee thing. |
15% is a fairly big cut, no? |  |
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| Bristol City Match Fred on 23:36 - Dec 1 with 1794 views | St_Pollock |
| Bristol City Match Fred on 23:05 - Dec 1 by CiderwithRsie |
He also got GR a promotion and cup double and got them another cup final, having put Celtic out in the semi.
Let's not try to pretend his time at Rangers was a failure, it wasn't. |
Have to ask, but you do know that they were getting crowds 20+ times bigger than all but one side in the Championship in 2015/16 and 5 times bigger than that one side, Hibs?
Also, that the Scottish Challenge Cup is the equivalent of the Johnston Paint Trophy? And that all bar one team they played in the run to winning the trophy had 20+ less times average crowds?
The win against Celtic was also on penalties...
Not saying you have no idea about what you're talking about but, coming from a Rangers family, the Rangers' fans only celebrate one of those occasions and out of the other two one was pure relief and the other was just a joke to almost all fans... |  | | |
| Bristol City Match Fred on 23:38 - Dec 1 with 1783 views | CiderwithRsie |
| Bristol City Match Fred on 23:21 - Dec 1 by daveB |
blimey when Hunter is calling for a managerial change things must be bad. don't disagree with some of the points he is making but personally wouldn't be changing the manager at the moment, with games every few days I don't see a new manager making significant improvements given the current circumstances. I would personally give Warburton until the end of the season and then see where we are unless we do fall off a cliff into a relegation battle which is quite possible.
I think we are close to being a good side which is where we have been since we came back down in 2015 but making that step to being a good side seems a big one.
I was hugely frustrated with tonights second half, it was similar to Friday in that we didn't react well to some changes from the opposition, it took us until the last five minutes to try and work the ball wide and create openings that way when the middle third of the pitch was a wall of bodies, wen we did that we almost scored twice but took us far too long to do that. Is that the manager or players or both I really don't know.
For all Warburtons faults if Bright could pick out a cross or finish when clean through we'd have won by a hatful tonight |
I don't think there's that much difference between you and Hunter. HH is making completely valid criticisms and saying that it's not outrageous to think about whether or not Warburton is helping. He's not actually calling for heads to roll now. |  | | |
| Bristol City Match Fred on 23:52 - Dec 1 with 1736 views | CiderwithRsie |
| Bristol City Match Fred on 23:36 - Dec 1 by St_Pollock |
Have to ask, but you do know that they were getting crowds 20+ times bigger than all but one side in the Championship in 2015/16 and 5 times bigger than that one side, Hibs?
Also, that the Scottish Challenge Cup is the equivalent of the Johnston Paint Trophy? And that all bar one team they played in the run to winning the trophy had 20+ less times average crowds?
The win against Celtic was also on penalties...
Not saying you have no idea about what you're talking about but, coming from a Rangers family, the Rangers' fans only celebrate one of those occasions and out of the other two one was pure relief and the other was just a joke to almost all fans... |
So what? The fact is that Rangers had been f*cked financially (and quite right too btw) and cast into the lower leagues where understandably decent players (even by Scottish standards) didn't want to sign for them. Promotion was probably minimum requirement but you can only beat what's in front of you.
Celtic have won everything in sight in Scotland (before this season hahahahaha) and going toe-to-toe with them and putting them out on penalties, plus winning a trophy they were in but ballsed up is a fair go IMO. (Glasgow) Rangers fans are a bunch of entitled tw*ts with massively inflated ideas about the status of their club so how they rate achievement counts for the square root of very little in my book. The idea that because a lot of them turn out they must necessarily beat other sides operating on pretty much the same finances is exactly the sort of nonsense they would believe, but it's still baloney. We had the same sort of cr*p from Ch****a fans when Venables' side was walking all over them in the old 2nd Div. | | | |
| Bristol City Match Fred on 23:55 - Dec 1 with 1723 views | Burnleyhoop |
| Bristol City Match Fred on 23:29 - Dec 1 by Antti_Heinola |
honestly mate, you make loads of good points, i just come down on the other side of the fence to you.
I think you can credit him a lot with Eze. I banged the Eze drum from the first time I saw him play, but Ollie was not great for him, McClaren did ok, but flogged him half to death. He absolutely flourished under Warburton and denying that is bending reality to suit your narrative. Of course Eze thanked his youth coaches - he was on the scrapheap when they picked him up. But it's naive to think Warburton didn;t help take him to another level - look at his goals, his assists last season. One thing he does know about is getting the best out of attacking players. Another manager *may* have got the same out of him. But another manager didn't.
Another point: in my view you change manager when not in dire straits ONLY when you have a very, very good replacement who you know is willing to come and take the job. Klopp taking over from Rodgers at Liverpool the prime example of that and, maybe, Mourinho at Spurs.
I don't really believe there is a genuine, gettable candidate out there who would out-perform Warburton at the moment. One may make us harder to beat at the expense of some excitement, but no manager is going to get this lot promoted. Therefore, it's a moot discussion in my eyes. It's change for change's sake, to slake the thirst of new hope.
I love Warnock, and yes we ground out games, but even games we ground out were done with a forward line of Helguson, Smith, Routledge and bloody Adel Taarabt. Warnock also spent an absolute bomb in this league compared to Warburton and had the best player this league has ever seen. Full credit to him, that means nothing if you can't manage it and he did superbly. But it was lightning in a bottle. For this club in 25 years we've had two years where we've had stellar seasons at this level. And both those seasons had enormous financial backing and outstanding, experienced players for this league.
I'm not defeatist, but it's fantasy to think a new man coming in will deliver anything like that. I think overall Warbs is doing a good job. This isn't the time to discuss yet another change of direction. Cold light of day, he's had less than 18 months, during which he's turned over the squad once, lost his best player in two successive summers, and his top three goalscorers from last season, and he had to deal with Covid just as we were hitting some really fine form, yes, he failed completely to deal with the return until the final few games, and has had a rocky start to this season. But we're not, or shouldn't be, getting the firing squad ready now, or any time in the near future, unless things go really south. Personally, I don't think they will and we'll finish a difficult season between 12th and 18th. |
Agree entirely. And furthermore, the likes of Kakay and Haimallenen will have got more games under their belts with all the much needed experience that brings.
Will be interesting to see what Warburton does in the Jan transfer window, but in truth we are not that far away from being seriously competitive. After all, with better finishing, we would have smashed Bristol tonight. Frustrating yes, but back to the drawing board and keep plugging. | | | |
| Bristol City Match Fred on 23:57 - Dec 1 with 1721 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
I am 100% sure sacking the manager will work this time. |  | | |
| Bristol City Match Fred on 23:57 - Dec 1 with 1721 views | daveB |
| Bristol City Match Fred on 23:38 - Dec 1 by CiderwithRsie |
I don't think there's that much difference between you and Hunter. HH is making completely valid criticisms and saying that it's not outrageous to think about whether or not Warburton is helping. He's not actually calling for heads to roll now. |
yeah I don't disagree and said his criticisms are valid, i think when someone like hunter starts talking about if changing managers is the answer you have to sit up and take notice because he's not someone who you'd expect to be suggesting that on a whim.
I personally haven't reached that stage yet where I think it's time to think about a change but i can see where he is coming from |  | | |
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| Bristol City Match Fred on 00:05 - Dec 2 with 1700 views | daveB |
Kakay blamed in this for not stopping the cross but it was Carroll closest to him, Kakay had made the run forward for Dickie who gave it away | | | |
| Bristol City Match Fred on 00:16 - Dec 2 with 1680 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Bristol City Match Fred on 23:12 - Dec 1 by Hunterhoop |
He’s actually seen the lowest wage bill reduction YoY of any manager since Redknapp.
Check the accounts. We don’t yet know the wage bill for last season, but for the season before it was £20m total down from £70m in the Prem (over 4 seasons). Warburton then took over and estimated were rumoured to be we may have squeezed it down to £17m for last season (we’ll find out in April). But yeah, he hasn’t had the wage bill “slashed” at all. He’s also been allowed to actually pay transfer fees for players although I’m sure that was a committee thing. |
All fair, but he's lost a £20m player, hence being allowed to spend some - some - of that money.
Prior to that he saw sales out and replaced them with £50,000 and improved our league position.
He's operating a transfer loss and a wage loss every year, Hunter.
Not to nit-pick, because I know you're just teasing this out in a rational manner, but the above clarification is a huge one. |  |
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| Bristol City Match Fred on 00:35 - Dec 2 with 1635 views | Stanisgod |
| Bristol City Match Fred on 22:26 - Dec 1 by flynnbo |
I make that at least 3 posts tonight where you've coated off Wallace. It's the whole defence which is fragile and, fwiw, I thought he wasn't too bad today. |
Dom Balls pathetic attempt to stop the guy in the box for the second was frankly embarrassing. Went to ground when you're taught to stand up and harry, guy just looked and shifted the ball as he slid past him. |  |
| It's being so happy that keeps me going. |
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| Bristol City Match Fred on 00:39 - Dec 2 with 1628 views | gigiisourgod |
Think it would be absolutely nonsensical to get rid of Warburton and am amazed it is even a topic of discussion. Think we are very lucky to have him and certainly believe we are heading in the right direction. | | | |
| Bristol City Match Fred on 00:40 - Dec 2 with 1629 views | Stanisgod |
| Bristol City Match Fred on 22:57 - Dec 1 by ParkRoyalR |
Chair plays head down and takes too many touches, BoS similar, although both improving with coaching. |
Chair creates ten times more than BOS. | |
| It's being so happy that keeps me going. |
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| Bristol City Match Fred on 03:13 - Dec 2 with 1545 views | QPROslo |
| Bristol City Match Fred on 00:40 - Dec 2 by Stanisgod |
Chair creates ten times more than BOS. |
Find some money, find a goal scorer, and I think we'd be all right.. Don't think we can rely on getting enough goals from Dykes or Bonne. Dykes doesn't get near to half decent balls into the box, Bonne gets closer but hasn't the hight, power or skill to put them away. | | | |
| Bristol City Match Fred on 05:43 - Dec 2 with 1499 views | MelakaRanger |
| Bristol City Match Fred on 21:43 - Dec 1 by dannyblue |
Again we have to work so hard to score great goals, and other teams have to do nothing to score theirs. Great to watch at times but the naivety is infuriating. |
We continue to improve by minute amounts each match. We are a better "team" than 12 months ago. The defence is not quite as bad as 12 months ago. It is 'slightly' better
But as I watch all the matches, there is on thing that is I am sure most every supporter is feeling. Whenever we get the ball 20 yards from their goal I am not excited, I do not expect us to worry the opposition, I expect us to waste the chance - and invariably we do.
Whenever the opposition is within 20 yards of our goal or has a corner, I fully expect us to make schoolboy errors - and invariably we do which often leads to them scoring.
That said. We have a team that in the past 9 months has lost 3 attacking players that scored about 45 goals last year. Thats a massive hole which we cannot fix in just one season.
There are positives though. Our goalkeeping is now far superior to anything we have had since Smithies left us. The defence is a bit better than last year. We actually own our strikers!
Warbs is dealing with all this on a shoestring budget. I dont think anyone else could do much better. The team as a whole is improving (very very slowly) but we are a good few years away from being contenders for a top 6 position rather than being just about good enough to stay 6 from bottom.
So its a season or two more of frustrations . |  | | |
| Bristol City Match Fred on 06:33 - Dec 2 with 1464 views | superhoopdownunder |
| Bristol City Match Fred on 22:04 - Dec 1 by paulparker |
We are not to good to go down , if your conceding 2 or more goals a game that’s a serious issue
Something has to change , another 5 minutes against Rotherham and that would have been 3-3
We almost chucked that game as well
We have to be nasty and horrible but we can’t do it under warbs , it would be a disaster if we go down this year , we are to nice to play against and don’t have the strikers or the defence to play total football for 90 minutes , |
We may play nice football but we'll never get promoted with the current leaders off the pitch in charge. Any time we get a decent player they will be sold sharpish which means we'll never evolve to being better than mediocre.
Need a Warnock or someone who knows how to win at Championship level to progress and win.
Otherwise we'll play nice, win some, draw a few and lose a lot and go nowhere.
It's very frustrating. | | | |
| Bristol City Match Fred on 07:18 - Dec 2 with 1417 views | Wegerles_Stairs |
| Bristol City Match Fred on 22:04 - Dec 1 by paulparker |
We are not to good to go down , if your conceding 2 or more goals a game that’s a serious issue
Something has to change , another 5 minutes against Rotherham and that would have been 3-3
We almost chucked that game as well
We have to be nasty and horrible but we can’t do it under warbs , it would be a disaster if we go down this year , we are to nice to play against and don’t have the strikers or the defence to play total football for 90 minutes , |
Yep, losing games that you should win is a hallmark of a relegation side. There's definitely a pattern - we were on top against Coventry but defensive frailties let them back in the game and we were awful in the second half. Yet we don't seem to learn - still playing the substandard left back last night, who, right on cue, doesn't bother marking their main striker.
Much as it would be hilarious to see either of them go down, you've got to think that Derby and Forest will eventually pull clear. Similarly, Wednesday under Pulis. That would mean we're competing with the likes of Coventry, Rotherham and Wycombe (i.e. all three promoted clubs). What a time to be alive. [Post edited 2 Dec 2020 7:19]
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| Bristol City Match Fred on 07:29 - Dec 2 with 1395 views | Dixie_CT |
If we had of taken another one of our chances in the first 40 mins then that is a different game. Dominating and going in at half time 0-0 would have been better psychologically than Bristol drawing level. Sucks the air out of us whilst instilling them with belief. Conceding so early in the second half compounded it all and it was up hill from there.
Despite us lacking character and characters, I thought we did well to keep going and get back on top for the final 15 minutes with two decent chances for Bonne and BOS.
Not Warburton’s biggest fan, something about his personality that I can’t warm to and think his lack of alternative tactics is a really negative. However, I think he needs to be given more time, probably to the end of the season at least, maybe even next.
Much covered is the loss of Wells, Hugill and Eze but also integrating quite a few new signings and other players from U23s to the first team will take time. I thought you saw the lack of chemistry and understanding a few times, no more so than between BOS & Ozzy getting the combination play wrong on a few occasions.
I think we have only performed badly against Barnsley, Preston and maybe Blackburn although were in that until undone by Armstrong. Other defeats or draws have been due to very, very poor defending or not taking our chances. Not into all that xG stuff but would be interesting to see our chance conversions rate.
Wave a magic wand to go and sign a big, dominate, barky centre half, one way or another sort out the BOS saga and try to nick a rising star from the Prem on loan who is more Jerome Thomas than Jack Clarke and this season will be a positive one where we finish 15th.
P.s. kudos to the coaching team for those two first half corners. Very clever and refreshing.
[Post edited 2 Dec 2020 7:34]
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| Bristol City Match Fred on 07:35 - Dec 2 with 1386 views | wood_hoop |
We can pick the bones out of any performance but taking into account what MW has done so far I think he deserves a pat on the back, some players have improved, others only tiny steps, we are not going to take this division by storm, especially as we don't yet have a ''fox in the box'.
Forwards we have work hard, whether they have the skill and gumption to make defenders fear them at the moment is very debatable, last nights performance at certain sections of the game was quite delightful, so some hope, but as we are yet a very unpolished group of players I fully expect a mixed season of highs and lows.
Maybe that '12th man' coming back will help more than is expected, those lucky enough to attend games I think can encourage and no doubt will cajole at times but might just make that bit of a difference we need. |  | | |
| Bristol City Match Fred on 07:45 - Dec 2 with 1364 views | Dixie_CT |
Had a look at conversion rate and we aren’t that low https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/championship/chancenverwertung/wettbewerb/GB2
The current bottom three have scored 10 less goals than us.
Whilst I was at it, Norwich stats, wow. Only won one game by more than a goal (Bristol City away 1-3), and lost to Derby yet are top of the league. It really can be fine margins! | | | |
| Bristol City Match Fred on 08:23 - Dec 2 with 1297 views | Hunterhoop |
| Bristol City Match Fred on 23:29 - Dec 1 by Antti_Heinola |
honestly mate, you make loads of good points, i just come down on the other side of the fence to you.
I think you can credit him a lot with Eze. I banged the Eze drum from the first time I saw him play, but Ollie was not great for him, McClaren did ok, but flogged him half to death. He absolutely flourished under Warburton and denying that is bending reality to suit your narrative. Of course Eze thanked his youth coaches - he was on the scrapheap when they picked him up. But it's naive to think Warburton didn;t help take him to another level - look at his goals, his assists last season. One thing he does know about is getting the best out of attacking players. Another manager *may* have got the same out of him. But another manager didn't.
Another point: in my view you change manager when not in dire straits ONLY when you have a very, very good replacement who you know is willing to come and take the job. Klopp taking over from Rodgers at Liverpool the prime example of that and, maybe, Mourinho at Spurs.
I don't really believe there is a genuine, gettable candidate out there who would out-perform Warburton at the moment. One may make us harder to beat at the expense of some excitement, but no manager is going to get this lot promoted. Therefore, it's a moot discussion in my eyes. It's change for change's sake, to slake the thirst of new hope.
I love Warnock, and yes we ground out games, but even games we ground out were done with a forward line of Helguson, Smith, Routledge and bloody Adel Taarabt. Warnock also spent an absolute bomb in this league compared to Warburton and had the best player this league has ever seen. Full credit to him, that means nothing if you can't manage it and he did superbly. But it was lightning in a bottle. For this club in 25 years we've had two years where we've had stellar seasons at this level. And both those seasons had enormous financial backing and outstanding, experienced players for this league.
I'm not defeatist, but it's fantasy to think a new man coming in will deliver anything like that. I think overall Warbs is doing a good job. This isn't the time to discuss yet another change of direction. Cold light of day, he's had less than 18 months, during which he's turned over the squad once, lost his best player in two successive summers, and his top three goalscorers from last season, and he had to deal with Covid just as we were hitting some really fine form, yes, he failed completely to deal with the return until the final few games, and has had a rocky start to this season. But we're not, or shouldn't be, getting the firing squad ready now, or any time in the near future, unless things go really south. Personally, I don't think they will and we'll finish a difficult season between 12th and 18th. |
That’s a straw man post, Antti.
None of those are arguments against points I raised. I said Warburton was important to Eze’s development. I just don’t credit him with making him a £20m player. I think it likely he’d have become that anyway and certainly with other coaches too.
I’m never said he had a better squad or more resources than Warnock. I just said Warnock won ugly many a time. Warburton doesn’t appear to know how to.
I won’t go repeating myself on all the points I’ve made already suffice to reiterate: I am NOT yet calling for a managerial change. I am merely making a case that it is no longer a discussion that should be seen as moronic to have. It’s a valid conversation now. If our obvious issues persist and we go on a poor run, then you will reach a point where it has to happen. Relegation this year should not even be a consideration given how weak the league is.
Cider makes a very good point about who would come to work here, suggesting the best we could get would be worse than we have. A very wise point. And I truly don’t know who would be interested in the job. Not many funds, a club a bit stuck, expectations...but equally a team will lots of talented, if naive, young players. As far as I know Paul Cool and Nigel Pearson remains available. The latter is proven at this level; the former did a great job with Wigan. I’m sure there are others. Whether they would want to come here, I’ve no idea, but I don’t think it’s quite as bad a candidate pool as some think.
But as I said, I want Warburton to be given more time, but not indefinitely, certainly not until the end of season regardless of league position. He needs to start addressing issues and delivering results, not build up play, now. If a team has a bad Dec this year, they’ll be in the bottom 3. This is a team that concedes a lot and is soft. Getting out of the bottom 3, once in there, may be price difficult it us. |  | | |
| Bristol City Match Fred on 08:29 - Dec 2 with 1287 views | daveB |
It won't happen for a variety of reasons but one player who I think would transform this team is Ben Pearson, a horrible player but very good on the ball and adds some steel into the team. | | | |
| Bristol City Match Fred on 08:47 - Dec 2 with 1255 views | BostonR |
| Bristol City Match Fred on 08:29 - Dec 2 by daveB |
It won't happen for a variety of reasons but one player who I think would transform this team is Ben Pearson, a horrible player but very good on the ball and adds some steel into the team. |
Great shout. Pearson would be a shoe-in for me and would make us much better. I recall Tommy Doherty joining us and he was horrible and really improved us. |  | | |
| Bristol City Match Fred on 08:52 - Dec 2 with 1245 views | joe90 |
| Bristol City Match Fred on 22:08 - Dec 1 by Hunterhoop |
I am fed up.
I am beginning to question whether we are better off with it without Warburton. I don’t think it’s a moronic conversation.
We have conceded the 2nd highest number of goals for last season and this season (separately).
We have conceded the most from corners.
These are fixable things in football. Teams with worse players than us manage it. Set pieces have nothing to do with you open play shape or attacking set up.
In possession, fair play to Warburton we look excellent, almost as good as Warnock’s side and miles better than any team since. But how many do we score? How many games do we win? What is Warburton’s win %? Last year it was 16/46 and this season 4/15. That’s 32.8%. Lower than McClaren and in line with Holloway. And last year we had Eze, playing like he did, and Hugill and Wells. Holloway had Seb Poulter, Sylla and Smith.
But fundamentally, which direction are we going? Since lockdown started what’s our record? What does that say about his motivation?
What does this season’s repeated formula - start well, play well, maybe score, maybe go in level or up; HT; oppo make a change, we get worse, they get better; we draw or lose - say about his in game management?
After 40 mins, did you truly think we’d win or mess it up? What does that say about your faith in his in game ability?
We keep showing we have the talent to outplay anyone in this league for large chunks of the game. So it cannot be a lack of talent.
What is changing?
Warburton doesn’t produce the young players. Ramsey, Hall, etc do. Eze thanked them not Warburton.
I’m not quite there with saying we should bin him off, but I do think it’s an entirely fair conversation now.
He needs to start addressing our obvious issues. If he can’t improve them soon, what evidence is there to say he ever will? And if improvement is the aim of the game - what else can it be - why persist with someone who can’t improve you?
And to an earlier question, yes, I’d love us to grind out an ugly, undeserved 2-1 away win under constant pressure. It would show we’re improving as a professional football side. |
A really good post.
My question: Is there a 'bigger picture' to Warbs current strategy that we're not seeing or is it actually simply a case of him not having a plan 'b'? |  | | |
| Bristol City Match Fred on 08:57 - Dec 2 with 1240 views | joe90 |
| Bristol City Match Fred on 22:47 - Dec 1 by BrianMcCarthy |
Some good points, Hunter.
I don't agree with your conclusion but it's a well argued post and definitely some food for thought. |
I'd say Hunters conclusion is the difference between us being a genuine play-off contenders and where we are now.
30/40 mins of good play with 1 goal just doesn't cut it. We've got the right ingredients, but they need to be applied properly. | | | |
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