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The reason I said that is because it just confirms things for me, that I suspected at the time, but hoped wasn't the case.
For example, he has been in charge of Rangers since August 2011, so we're fast approaching nearly three-years this summer and it's taken him until now to start learning about our history. For someone who spent around £35m on buying the club — that's naive.
Would you have spent that much without knowing?
For me, that shows a lack of due diligence or "homework" and even a lack of respect or care for QPR, as it's more obvious that buying the club was nothing to do with football but another agenda completely (maybe I'm just an old romantic in this sense). That lack of homework filtered through to how the club was run in the early part of his reign, which was disastrous and culminated with a horrific transfer policy and then the appointment of Mark Hughes — a man, based on our history and being a community club — who clearly wasn't the right fit from the outset.
He's said that for previous transfers, they just thought a good salary would automatically mean players would work their socks off. Sure, they've learnt some very hard lessons, but if your naivety is that basic from the outset, then you're way short of what you need in this environment and you're not going to catch up in just three-years time without some serious help from people who know the game inside out. The only advice they can really take is from Harry Redknapp and his team (not the best idea in the world), or maybe some friends they have in football circles, but you can't be sure it's the right type of advice that really has the clubs interest at heart.
Of course, he has started looking at DVDs for which players worked in the past, what systems we played, where those players came from, what the crowd were used to, etc. He's trying to figure out what QPR were and what they should be in the future. If you need to do that sort of stuff, then you're an awful long way from knowing what you're doing in terms of football. That's not to say it's not a good idea to do, it is, because he badly needs it, but to be this far down the line and still that far away with his knowledge, is dangerous, and a shame.
The minute he walked through the door, he spoke about potential new stadium plans. That's before knowing anything about our history or culture. Now he is trying to get out there to "go and see what this atmosphere is like outside of the C Club" and experience it.
But, the atmosphere right now is pretty flat and dire, possibly the worst it's been in years. It's not the right kind of atmosphere to be sampling with a view to taking it to a new stadium, is it? I'm not sure the owners have ever really experienced Loftus Road in its full glory. For me, I'd be more concerned about trying to restore and improve the atmosphere at Loftus Road first. But irrespective of that, I do think it's a good thing he is doing this and getting out there.
He has stated numerous times in previous interviews that he doesn't want to become a yo-yo club, but that misses the point of natural development for club's in these situations. There should be a considered plan that incorporates this possibility — but I don't think there is. That is a lack of experience and understanding of football. Sure, you can skip over this, but you need to know what you're doing and how to do it, rather than just blast your way through with money and hope it all falls into place. It's high risk and also skipping over important development of a club can affect its soul — it breeds a level of expectancy amongst supporters that's unfair and unrealistic and creates the wrong type of culture.
Then there's the contradictory messages — where he says he has no expectations and was happy to reach 50 points and in the next breath, says he doesn't care if we don't go up as Champions so long as we go up.
For me that's naive — it sends the wrong message out to the players and the fans, even if we know that might be the case and we'd be satisfied if it ended that way. It's not something you should say publicly. You're supposed to build a football club around the idea and belief that they can win, that they can develop into something better, and that everything is designed and driven to be the best it can be. That message to me, is saying that second best is acceptable, so long as we're in with all the glitz and glamour of the Premier League.
There will be hungry ambitious players who want more than that.
It sounds like I've had a moan there, it's not really that at all, I like Tony Fernandes (and he has plenty of plus points), but I just worry that the gap of knowledge has been so vast, that it's hard for him to make it up in time before he makes decisions that will affect us forever.
Every time I hear him talk about certain matters, I keep coming back to the same points I've raised in the past. Is he really good enough? If he didn't have any money at all, would his leadership satisfy you if he had to operate within the clubs means?
That's not something I have an answer for, it's something I am curious about. I like to see people who believe in their skills and using them... and as they say, skills pay the bills.
People will say he has learned from his mistakes, or so long as he learns from his mistakes, but the point is, nobody in that position should ever be making mistakes to that extreme, and a club like QPR should not be used as test bed for it. It's players and staff who need the time to develop and learn, not the person at the very top, and if the person at the top still needs to do a lot of learning then it impacts on everything beneath in a big way.
Sometimes I wonder, maybe there are other clubs and owners out there who also have this problem, but because they don't speak as often publicly, and about matters that the football people tend to take care of, in terms of the management, CEO, etc... then maybe it's also a halfway house between these issues. Football is of course changing, there are more and more owners and people involved with loads of money and little expertise... it's just not a future I think is great for football on the whole, or community clubs like ours.
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Fernandes on London Calling on 13:26 - Jan 24 with 2253 views
Fernandes on London Calling on 12:55 - Jan 24 by Neil_SI
Grifter/Antti —
The reason I said that is because it just confirms things for me, that I suspected at the time, but hoped wasn't the case.
For example, he has been in charge of Rangers since August 2011, so we're fast approaching nearly three-years this summer and it's taken him until now to start learning about our history. For someone who spent around £35m on buying the club — that's naive.
Would you have spent that much without knowing?
For me, that shows a lack of due diligence or "homework" and even a lack of respect or care for QPR, as it's more obvious that buying the club was nothing to do with football but another agenda completely (maybe I'm just an old romantic in this sense). That lack of homework filtered through to how the club was run in the early part of his reign, which was disastrous and culminated with a horrific transfer policy and then the appointment of Mark Hughes — a man, based on our history and being a community club — who clearly wasn't the right fit from the outset.
He's said that for previous transfers, they just thought a good salary would automatically mean players would work their socks off. Sure, they've learnt some very hard lessons, but if your naivety is that basic from the outset, then you're way short of what you need in this environment and you're not going to catch up in just three-years time without some serious help from people who know the game inside out. The only advice they can really take is from Harry Redknapp and his team (not the best idea in the world), or maybe some friends they have in football circles, but you can't be sure it's the right type of advice that really has the clubs interest at heart.
Of course, he has started looking at DVDs for which players worked in the past, what systems we played, where those players came from, what the crowd were used to, etc. He's trying to figure out what QPR were and what they should be in the future. If you need to do that sort of stuff, then you're an awful long way from knowing what you're doing in terms of football. That's not to say it's not a good idea to do, it is, because he badly needs it, but to be this far down the line and still that far away with his knowledge, is dangerous, and a shame.
The minute he walked through the door, he spoke about potential new stadium plans. That's before knowing anything about our history or culture. Now he is trying to get out there to "go and see what this atmosphere is like outside of the C Club" and experience it.
But, the atmosphere right now is pretty flat and dire, possibly the worst it's been in years. It's not the right kind of atmosphere to be sampling with a view to taking it to a new stadium, is it? I'm not sure the owners have ever really experienced Loftus Road in its full glory. For me, I'd be more concerned about trying to restore and improve the atmosphere at Loftus Road first. But irrespective of that, I do think it's a good thing he is doing this and getting out there.
He has stated numerous times in previous interviews that he doesn't want to become a yo-yo club, but that misses the point of natural development for club's in these situations. There should be a considered plan that incorporates this possibility — but I don't think there is. That is a lack of experience and understanding of football. Sure, you can skip over this, but you need to know what you're doing and how to do it, rather than just blast your way through with money and hope it all falls into place. It's high risk and also skipping over important development of a club can affect its soul — it breeds a level of expectancy amongst supporters that's unfair and unrealistic and creates the wrong type of culture.
Then there's the contradictory messages — where he says he has no expectations and was happy to reach 50 points and in the next breath, says he doesn't care if we don't go up as Champions so long as we go up.
For me that's naive — it sends the wrong message out to the players and the fans, even if we know that might be the case and we'd be satisfied if it ended that way. It's not something you should say publicly. You're supposed to build a football club around the idea and belief that they can win, that they can develop into something better, and that everything is designed and driven to be the best it can be. That message to me, is saying that second best is acceptable, so long as we're in with all the glitz and glamour of the Premier League.
There will be hungry ambitious players who want more than that.
It sounds like I've had a moan there, it's not really that at all, I like Tony Fernandes (and he has plenty of plus points), but I just worry that the gap of knowledge has been so vast, that it's hard for him to make it up in time before he makes decisions that will affect us forever.
Every time I hear him talk about certain matters, I keep coming back to the same points I've raised in the past. Is he really good enough? If he didn't have any money at all, would his leadership satisfy you if he had to operate within the clubs means?
That's not something I have an answer for, it's something I am curious about. I like to see people who believe in their skills and using them... and as they say, skills pay the bills.
People will say he has learned from his mistakes, or so long as he learns from his mistakes, but the point is, nobody in that position should ever be making mistakes to that extreme, and a club like QPR should not be used as test bed for it. It's players and staff who need the time to develop and learn, not the person at the very top, and if the person at the top still needs to do a lot of learning then it impacts on everything beneath in a big way.
Sometimes I wonder, maybe there are other clubs and owners out there who also have this problem, but because they don't speak as often publicly, and about matters that the football people tend to take care of, in terms of the management, CEO, etc... then maybe it's also a halfway house between these issues. Football is of course changing, there are more and more owners and people involved with loads of money and little expertise... it's just not a future I think is great for football on the whole, or community clubs like ours.
Fantastic post. I'm not anti TF but you have hit the nail on head with regard to concerns about he runs the club. Not every problem can be fixed by chucking money at it. I sometimes wonder if he actually knows the club he bought and its clear he doesnt imo.
He lives in a premier league bubble where its all big names and razzamatazz, as for succession planning after HR it will just be the biggest name who is out of work at the time, when really you could be shaping someone like Bircham to come into the first team fold.
[Post edited 24 Jan 2014 13:30]
@WeavQPR
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Fernandes on London Calling on 13:51 - Jan 24 with 2210 views
Whilst I fully understand where you coming from, and there inconsistencies in TF's responses I take it all a different way than you.
He had been naive in misunderstanding the business he bought. Remember who it bought it from, when and in what circumstances. Tango and Cash saw him coming and sold him something which would probably now fall foul of the trades descriptions act. His due dilligence would have run the numbers and the attraction would have been a fully functioning Premiership team in London with seemingly good management and playing squad. That would fit into his marketing portfolio for Tune Group very nicely, especially adding a few marque signings like JS Park on the way, proven performers and household names in key target markets.
He would have experienced a stadium delirious at staying up and worshipping him because he was not T&C. What's not too like?
I don't think anything quite prepared him for appreciating the true scale of the utter omnishambles that actually exisited under the Taffia. He put his trust in clueless and Kia Hyundaicarsalesman as those with proven football credentials. And he got right royally shafted.
What I like is there is now a clearer strategy and investment plan for the club. He has looked to get stability in and used Harry's availability as a real benefit to start getting things right. The squad has changed and performances at best fair to middling, but it certainly arrested the very real chance of dropping like a stone as other have done. I think we are probably going beyond his expectations this year (not his hopes) and that we have done so well has encouraged his hope that we do get promoted at first time of asking. But - I dont think he is banking on it and the long term investment plans underline where his thinking is at.
As for overall naivity in the football "business" (if ever there was an oxymoron to describe something) the simple answer is that you often dont fully appreciate something until you try it. His business model is to put people who are competent and let them run things. He got that wrong first time around, he feels more comfortable this time around as both he and Beard learn more about the business they ae now in.
As for being around the ground, its his ground and he can sit where he likes. Good PR, but equally helps give him perspective as a customer of the experience. SOmething he has again done with his other businesses.
I like him. I think he is a shrewed and savvy operator, who like all good businessmen, learns from hois mistakes.
Never knowingly understood
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Fernandes on London Calling on 13:55 - Jan 24 with 2203 views
Fernandes on London Calling on 13:51 - Jan 24 by danehoop
Whilst I fully understand where you coming from, and there inconsistencies in TF's responses I take it all a different way than you.
He had been naive in misunderstanding the business he bought. Remember who it bought it from, when and in what circumstances. Tango and Cash saw him coming and sold him something which would probably now fall foul of the trades descriptions act. His due dilligence would have run the numbers and the attraction would have been a fully functioning Premiership team in London with seemingly good management and playing squad. That would fit into his marketing portfolio for Tune Group very nicely, especially adding a few marque signings like JS Park on the way, proven performers and household names in key target markets.
He would have experienced a stadium delirious at staying up and worshipping him because he was not T&C. What's not too like?
I don't think anything quite prepared him for appreciating the true scale of the utter omnishambles that actually exisited under the Taffia. He put his trust in clueless and Kia Hyundaicarsalesman as those with proven football credentials. And he got right royally shafted.
What I like is there is now a clearer strategy and investment plan for the club. He has looked to get stability in and used Harry's availability as a real benefit to start getting things right. The squad has changed and performances at best fair to middling, but it certainly arrested the very real chance of dropping like a stone as other have done. I think we are probably going beyond his expectations this year (not his hopes) and that we have done so well has encouraged his hope that we do get promoted at first time of asking. But - I dont think he is banking on it and the long term investment plans underline where his thinking is at.
As for overall naivity in the football "business" (if ever there was an oxymoron to describe something) the simple answer is that you often dont fully appreciate something until you try it. His business model is to put people who are competent and let them run things. He got that wrong first time around, he feels more comfortable this time around as both he and Beard learn more about the business they ae now in.
As for being around the ground, its his ground and he can sit where he likes. Good PR, but equally helps give him perspective as a customer of the experience. SOmething he has again done with his other businesses.
I like him. I think he is a shrewed and savvy operator, who like all good businessmen, learns from hois mistakes.
That is a great post.
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Fernandes on London Calling on 14:16 - Jan 24 with 2165 views
Thanks for taking the time to post, Neil. Really interesting - agree with a lot, disagree with a fair bit, am less bothered about some things that bother you, but certainly understand all your viewpoints. Currently at work, but might try to post some further thoughts later if i can!
Bare bones.
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Fernandes on London Calling on 19:37 - Jan 24 with 2076 views
Its impossible for even the most successful businessmen not to fail somtimes, most impt ti learn from mistakes and come back stronger, thats the hallmark of successful people
Not many a football owner will engage with fans like what tf did, would you prefer one that is aloft and watches (if they ever bothered) matches from overseas and never visit the ground?
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Fernandes on London Calling on 21:34 - Jan 24 with 2013 views
Fernandes on London Calling on 12:55 - Jan 24 by Neil_SI
Grifter/Antti —
The reason I said that is because it just confirms things for me, that I suspected at the time, but hoped wasn't the case.
For example, he has been in charge of Rangers since August 2011, so we're fast approaching nearly three-years this summer and it's taken him until now to start learning about our history. For someone who spent around £35m on buying the club — that's naive.
Would you have spent that much without knowing?
For me, that shows a lack of due diligence or "homework" and even a lack of respect or care for QPR, as it's more obvious that buying the club was nothing to do with football but another agenda completely (maybe I'm just an old romantic in this sense). That lack of homework filtered through to how the club was run in the early part of his reign, which was disastrous and culminated with a horrific transfer policy and then the appointment of Mark Hughes — a man, based on our history and being a community club — who clearly wasn't the right fit from the outset.
He's said that for previous transfers, they just thought a good salary would automatically mean players would work their socks off. Sure, they've learnt some very hard lessons, but if your naivety is that basic from the outset, then you're way short of what you need in this environment and you're not going to catch up in just three-years time without some serious help from people who know the game inside out. The only advice they can really take is from Harry Redknapp and his team (not the best idea in the world), or maybe some friends they have in football circles, but you can't be sure it's the right type of advice that really has the clubs interest at heart.
Of course, he has started looking at DVDs for which players worked in the past, what systems we played, where those players came from, what the crowd were used to, etc. He's trying to figure out what QPR were and what they should be in the future. If you need to do that sort of stuff, then you're an awful long way from knowing what you're doing in terms of football. That's not to say it's not a good idea to do, it is, because he badly needs it, but to be this far down the line and still that far away with his knowledge, is dangerous, and a shame.
The minute he walked through the door, he spoke about potential new stadium plans. That's before knowing anything about our history or culture. Now he is trying to get out there to "go and see what this atmosphere is like outside of the C Club" and experience it.
But, the atmosphere right now is pretty flat and dire, possibly the worst it's been in years. It's not the right kind of atmosphere to be sampling with a view to taking it to a new stadium, is it? I'm not sure the owners have ever really experienced Loftus Road in its full glory. For me, I'd be more concerned about trying to restore and improve the atmosphere at Loftus Road first. But irrespective of that, I do think it's a good thing he is doing this and getting out there.
He has stated numerous times in previous interviews that he doesn't want to become a yo-yo club, but that misses the point of natural development for club's in these situations. There should be a considered plan that incorporates this possibility — but I don't think there is. That is a lack of experience and understanding of football. Sure, you can skip over this, but you need to know what you're doing and how to do it, rather than just blast your way through with money and hope it all falls into place. It's high risk and also skipping over important development of a club can affect its soul — it breeds a level of expectancy amongst supporters that's unfair and unrealistic and creates the wrong type of culture.
Then there's the contradictory messages — where he says he has no expectations and was happy to reach 50 points and in the next breath, says he doesn't care if we don't go up as Champions so long as we go up.
For me that's naive — it sends the wrong message out to the players and the fans, even if we know that might be the case and we'd be satisfied if it ended that way. It's not something you should say publicly. You're supposed to build a football club around the idea and belief that they can win, that they can develop into something better, and that everything is designed and driven to be the best it can be. That message to me, is saying that second best is acceptable, so long as we're in with all the glitz and glamour of the Premier League.
There will be hungry ambitious players who want more than that.
It sounds like I've had a moan there, it's not really that at all, I like Tony Fernandes (and he has plenty of plus points), but I just worry that the gap of knowledge has been so vast, that it's hard for him to make it up in time before he makes decisions that will affect us forever.
Every time I hear him talk about certain matters, I keep coming back to the same points I've raised in the past. Is he really good enough? If he didn't have any money at all, would his leadership satisfy you if he had to operate within the clubs means?
That's not something I have an answer for, it's something I am curious about. I like to see people who believe in their skills and using them... and as they say, skills pay the bills.
People will say he has learned from his mistakes, or so long as he learns from his mistakes, but the point is, nobody in that position should ever be making mistakes to that extreme, and a club like QPR should not be used as test bed for it. It's players and staff who need the time to develop and learn, not the person at the very top, and if the person at the top still needs to do a lot of learning then it impacts on everything beneath in a big way.
Sometimes I wonder, maybe there are other clubs and owners out there who also have this problem, but because they don't speak as often publicly, and about matters that the football people tend to take care of, in terms of the management, CEO, etc... then maybe it's also a halfway house between these issues. Football is of course changing, there are more and more owners and people involved with loads of money and little expertise... it's just not a future I think is great for football on the whole, or community clubs like ours.
I definitely do not agree with you in spite of your eloquence.
Lets review our last 15 years. Lets remember Administration and Division 3. Lets remember that when we were promoted, most people understood that it was unlikely we would stay up for long and that we would inevitably have a period of yoyo-ing between the top two divisions. Lets remember a time when our youth policy was to have the lads run around in the park. Lets remember when the electricity bill at the training ground wasn't paid. Lets remember a time when free transfers and low wages were the best we could hope for because the re was simply no money for the transfer pool.
So, in light of that, how can you possibly point to the administratino of TF as being the DISASTER!! That is just whack. Name a chairman who you think has done a better job than TF in the last 20 years?
The youth team is going from strength to stregnth and they are winning week in week out. The training ground has been significantly improved and there are plans to build a state of the art training facility. There are even plans to build a brand new stadium. The thinking is long-term and big picture. When was the last time we had a chairman who had his eye on the long-term and the big picture? Come on, name just one chairman in the last couple of decades who had that sort of vision and the resources to go with it?
I completely agree that Hughes was a disaster and the results last year were terrible. But QPR are a small club and we were always going to struggle in the Prem. If we get promoted this season, we will struggle next season in the Prem. Face it. That is life.
As for Hughes and the transfer policy, as they say, hindsight is 20-20. It is easy to sit back now and act all clever after the fact. Yep. It is now 100% clear that SWP and Granero were terrible signings, among many others. But at the time everyone was ecstatic at what these signings apparently meant for the club. Did the club try and grow too quickly? Of course they did. But here's the thing -- we messed up as a club, we learned from the mistake, and we moved on. The difference this time round is that TF has a long-term, big-picture perspective so when we get relegated we don't go into a death dive and spiral down to Division 3. That stability and consistency is what TF has brought to the club.
TF isn't perfect, but I am yet to hear anyone make a convincing argument for who has been a better chairman in the last 20 years, if not longer.
edit :applause for Dylans great post. Lucky to have Tony.
I definitely do not agree with you in spite of your eloquence.
Lets review our last 15 years. Lets remember Administration and Division 3. Lets remember that when we were promoted, most people understood that it was unlikely we would stay up for long and that we would inevitably have a period of yoyo-ing between the top two divisions. Lets remember a time when our youth policy was to have the lads run around in the park. Lets remember when the electricity bill at the training ground wasn't paid. Lets remember a time when free transfers and low wages were the best we could hope for because the re was simply no money for the transfer pool.
So, in light of that, how can you possibly point to the administratino of TF as being the DISASTER!! That is just whack. Name a chairman who you think has done a better job than TF in the last 20 years?
The youth team is going from strength to stregnth and they are winning week in week out. The training ground has been significantly improved and there are plans to build a state of the art training facility. There are even plans to build a brand new stadium. The thinking is long-term and big picture. When was the last time we had a chairman who had his eye on the long-term and the big picture? Come on, name just one chairman in the last couple of decades who had that sort of vision and the resources to go with it?
I completely agree that Hughes was a disaster and the results last year were terrible. But QPR are a small club and we were always going to struggle in the Prem. If we get promoted this season, we will struggle next season in the Prem. Face it. That is life.
As for Hughes and the transfer policy, as they say, hindsight is 20-20. It is easy to sit back now and act all clever after the fact. Yep. It is now 100% clear that SWP and Granero were terrible signings, among many others. But at the time everyone was ecstatic at what these signings apparently meant for the club. Did the club try and grow too quickly? Of course they did. But here's the thing -- we messed up as a club, we learned from the mistake, and we moved on. The difference this time round is that TF has a long-term, big-picture perspective so when we get relegated we don't go into a death dive and spiral down to Division 3. That stability and consistency is what TF has brought to the club.
Fernandes on London Calling on 21:34 - Jan 24 by DylanP
I definitely do not agree with you in spite of your eloquence.
Lets review our last 15 years. Lets remember Administration and Division 3. Lets remember that when we were promoted, most people understood that it was unlikely we would stay up for long and that we would inevitably have a period of yoyo-ing between the top two divisions. Lets remember a time when our youth policy was to have the lads run around in the park. Lets remember when the electricity bill at the training ground wasn't paid. Lets remember a time when free transfers and low wages were the best we could hope for because the re was simply no money for the transfer pool.
So, in light of that, how can you possibly point to the administratino of TF as being the DISASTER!! That is just whack. Name a chairman who you think has done a better job than TF in the last 20 years?
The youth team is going from strength to stregnth and they are winning week in week out. The training ground has been significantly improved and there are plans to build a state of the art training facility. There are even plans to build a brand new stadium. The thinking is long-term and big picture. When was the last time we had a chairman who had his eye on the long-term and the big picture? Come on, name just one chairman in the last couple of decades who had that sort of vision and the resources to go with it?
I completely agree that Hughes was a disaster and the results last year were terrible. But QPR are a small club and we were always going to struggle in the Prem. If we get promoted this season, we will struggle next season in the Prem. Face it. That is life.
As for Hughes and the transfer policy, as they say, hindsight is 20-20. It is easy to sit back now and act all clever after the fact. Yep. It is now 100% clear that SWP and Granero were terrible signings, among many others. But at the time everyone was ecstatic at what these signings apparently meant for the club. Did the club try and grow too quickly? Of course they did. But here's the thing -- we messed up as a club, we learned from the mistake, and we moved on. The difference this time round is that TF has a long-term, big-picture perspective so when we get relegated we don't go into a death dive and spiral down to Division 3. That stability and consistency is what TF has brought to the club.
TF isn't perfect, but I am yet to hear anyone make a convincing argument for who has been a better chairman in the last 20 years, if not longer.
[Post edited 24 Jan 2014 22:48]
I think its fair to say we've had some terrible chairmen since Jim Gregory. Briatore, Paladini, Chris Wright, Thompson - a frightening bunch really, and that includes one "genuine fan" [Wright] and one balance-the-books merchant [Thompson].
Maybe this football chairman lark is tougher than it looks?
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Fernandes on London Calling on 23:01 - Jan 24 with 1945 views
Fernandes on London Calling on 22:00 - Jan 24 by CiderwithRsie
I think its fair to say we've had some terrible chairmen since Jim Gregory. Briatore, Paladini, Chris Wright, Thompson - a frightening bunch really, and that includes one "genuine fan" [Wright] and one balance-the-books merchant [Thompson].
Maybe this football chairman lark is tougher than it looks?
I thought he came across very well. He has the look of a man that's been fleeced, and going to let no Mark Hughes or anyone else do the same to him again. He's on a learning curve, has the grace to acknowledge certain early naivitives and well, that's it really. Proud to call him our Chariman.
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Fernandes on London Calling on 23:46 - Jan 24 with 1921 views
Fernandes on London Calling on 21:34 - Jan 24 by DylanP
I definitely do not agree with you in spite of your eloquence.
Lets review our last 15 years. Lets remember Administration and Division 3. Lets remember that when we were promoted, most people understood that it was unlikely we would stay up for long and that we would inevitably have a period of yoyo-ing between the top two divisions. Lets remember a time when our youth policy was to have the lads run around in the park. Lets remember when the electricity bill at the training ground wasn't paid. Lets remember a time when free transfers and low wages were the best we could hope for because the re was simply no money for the transfer pool.
So, in light of that, how can you possibly point to the administratino of TF as being the DISASTER!! That is just whack. Name a chairman who you think has done a better job than TF in the last 20 years?
The youth team is going from strength to stregnth and they are winning week in week out. The training ground has been significantly improved and there are plans to build a state of the art training facility. There are even plans to build a brand new stadium. The thinking is long-term and big picture. When was the last time we had a chairman who had his eye on the long-term and the big picture? Come on, name just one chairman in the last couple of decades who had that sort of vision and the resources to go with it?
I completely agree that Hughes was a disaster and the results last year were terrible. But QPR are a small club and we were always going to struggle in the Prem. If we get promoted this season, we will struggle next season in the Prem. Face it. That is life.
As for Hughes and the transfer policy, as they say, hindsight is 20-20. It is easy to sit back now and act all clever after the fact. Yep. It is now 100% clear that SWP and Granero were terrible signings, among many others. But at the time everyone was ecstatic at what these signings apparently meant for the club. Did the club try and grow too quickly? Of course they did. But here's the thing -- we messed up as a club, we learned from the mistake, and we moved on. The difference this time round is that TF has a long-term, big-picture perspective so when we get relegated we don't go into a death dive and spiral down to Division 3. That stability and consistency is what TF has brought to the club.
TF isn't perfect, but I am yet to hear anyone make a convincing argument for who has been a better chairman in the last 20 years, if not longer.
[Post edited 24 Jan 2014 22:48]
Hey look, that's your point of view and one I completely respect. Mine is just mine, and how I feel and interpret the situation, and I'm always open to change. It's just how I feel at this moment in time. Each to his own.
The initial relegation from the Premier League back in the mid-90s was for me, special circumstances. It went badly wrong — and despite peoples feeling towards Christ Wright, it wasn't through any malicious intent. He was a QPR fan, but also entering a field and environment he knew little about and got badly stung and made numerous poor decisions. I was just a boy back then and trust me, I believed everybody who told me it would be fine and we'd be back up at the first time of asking, no problem.
I would argue that when QPR was on its knees, under the period of Ian Holloway and Bill Power, is when we really saw this club operating beyond its means. It had no money, it had to oversee incredible changes to the playing staff and others, but still was competitive. That was a group of people finding the best value out there and absolutely getting the best out of what it had (and a mention for Mark Devlin too who has done a sterling job at Brentford). I never really appreciated that so much at the time, but in hindsight, bloody hell, what a job they did. I've so much respect. They convinced so many people to take a chance and believe in us, and there was mutual respect between everybody from the club, to its players and to its fans.
I'm not saying we wouldn't struggle in the Premier League, far from that, but there's a right way and a wrong way to approach it and take it on. We took the wrong way — because the right way involves a lot of hard work and is scary (and of course, a lot of risk, so you understand the business pressure that brings). It's asking people to step up, believe in themselves and really show what they can do. It's the Roy of the Rovers stuff, and that's what I like about it — belief, inspiration and opportunity. Especially for those who deserve the chance to show, if they've earned it. We have discarded many who earned their right and crack at the big time. It doesn't sit well with me. And for me, it doesn't reflect well on the club when that happens.
I'm not sure I agree that we *really* have a long term plan. If anything it's always and still is about the short term. Is there anything wrong with that approach? No, not really. It's just not necessarily how I'd like to see it done. I accept that others may feel differently about that. It's easy to point at a new training ground in the pipeline and a new stadium, but as ever, I say, it's one thing building these things and another thing running them efficiently. Even if we did, say for the scouting network, QPR have a lot of problems being based in London and with a tight and fierce catchment area that competes with so many other clubs. There's issues there that challenge even the best in the business in these areas.
Youth team wise, it's easy to be swept aside and think we're doing well. We've not been able to compete at the higher levels of the youth structure for many years, because we've not had the facilities to do so. We've been left competing with the weakest youth sides, that's really why we've won so much over a period of time. Not the fault of the youth coaches or whatever, more the lack of investment has left them in that situation.
We've not really been able to bring anybody through from the youth set up for a long time, and that's not the fault of the current owners, or even the previous ones. It stems from the problems we had years ago and the mistakes we made shutting the centre of excellence down. But, those who have come later know no better, do they? How would they? This just appears to be how it's always been to them. The fact we've managed to get to a situation where some of those youth players have a career in the lower professional leagues is pretty sensational, rather than just dropping into non league or out of the game altogether. Kudos to them. Let's hope we can build on that, albeit, it's such a shame that someone like Marc Bircham, despite the promise of more funds and improved youth set up, despite a new training ground, and despite the prospect of a new stadium, still feels his career is better served elsewhere. It tells you something about the short term nature of QPR still. Small steps, too small for some.
Anyway, rabbling away as usual. :) But the proof is always going to be in the pudding — we'll find out, one way or another, whether we're in the Championship or Premier League next season. So from that point of view, it's exciting as it means they have to lay their cards on the table no matter what.
[Post edited 24 Jan 2014 23:59]
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Fernandes on London Calling on 23:48 - Jan 24 with 1915 views
None of what Fernandes says matters to me. None of it. In time, he will be judged by us all on his actions. He is moving us out of Loftus Road into a new stadium which will affect our future more profoundly than any single action has done in the history he is just now studying, and likely to affect us more than any single act in the the next century.
He has done this with no prior consultation with the club's supporters. I find this very fact scandalous and shameful, and I find Rangers fans acceptance of it apathetic, anaemic and alarming. Talking to twitter fans and giving good interviews after the event is not consultation, it's PR.
He may end up being the best chairman we've ever had. He may end up being the worst. But my fear is that in ten years time, because of his actions and his lack of prior consultation, we won't recognise our club and most of us will have been driven away. So he'll surely be the most impactful chairman.
And what will we have done, but watch him?
"The opposite of love, after all, is not hate, but indifference."
Fernandes on London Calling on 23:48 - Jan 24 by BrianMcCarthy
Fantastic posts, Neil.
None of what Fernandes says matters to me. None of it. In time, he will be judged by us all on his actions. He is moving us out of Loftus Road into a new stadium which will affect our future more profoundly than any single action has done in the history he is just now studying, and likely to affect us more than any single act in the the next century.
He has done this with no prior consultation with the club's supporters. I find this very fact scandalous and shameful, and I find Rangers fans acceptance of it apathetic, anaemic and alarming. Talking to twitter fans and giving good interviews after the event is not consultation, it's PR.
He may end up being the best chairman we've ever had. He may end up being the worst. But my fear is that in ten years time, because of his actions and his lack of prior consultation, we won't recognise our club and most of us will have been driven away. So he'll surely be the most impactful chairman.
And what will we have done, but watch him?
How should he consult with 'the fans', Brian? A vote? A meeting? With whom? The LSA? QPR 1st? Sorry, but while I respect the myriad QPR groups that have sprung up over the years they don't represent me and frequently make frankly bizarre statements that I don't agree with - these fan reps no more represent my views than TF does. What is it that you want to be consulted about? Do we need a new stadium? Well, yes we do. Anyone can see that. Our stadium is a mess and uncomfortable and tiny. Where should the new one be? Well, it needs to be close by. The plan is for a stadium close by. What exactly has he done that's so 'scandalous'? I like your posts a lot Brian, you speak tons of sense, but how dare you call fans who have a bit of optimism or who want a new stadium or who like the preliminary plans apathetic or anaemic? Who do you think you are?
Bare bones.
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Fernandes on London Calling on 10:22 - Jan 25 with 1688 views
Fernandes on London Calling on 10:03 - Jan 25 by Antti_Heinola
How should he consult with 'the fans', Brian? A vote? A meeting? With whom? The LSA? QPR 1st? Sorry, but while I respect the myriad QPR groups that have sprung up over the years they don't represent me and frequently make frankly bizarre statements that I don't agree with - these fan reps no more represent my views than TF does. What is it that you want to be consulted about? Do we need a new stadium? Well, yes we do. Anyone can see that. Our stadium is a mess and uncomfortable and tiny. Where should the new one be? Well, it needs to be close by. The plan is for a stadium close by. What exactly has he done that's so 'scandalous'? I like your posts a lot Brian, you speak tons of sense, but how dare you call fans who have a bit of optimism or who want a new stadium or who like the preliminary plans apathetic or anaemic? Who do you think you are?
'Morning Antti,
How he consults is up to him. If he wished to he could call a meeting, hold fans forums, have mailshots among members,...many manners of ways are open to him, should he so wish.
The first step on what to consult is easy, and probably mere rubber-stamping as it would seem the vast majority of supporters are in favour of a move, so he can't lose on this one. He gives the fans what they want and they feel as if they're part of the process.
The rest carries with it some risk that he may have to accept and act on mandates that don't suit the project. What capacity? Standing/safe standing areas? Details on how season ticket holders are re-located? Single or two-tier stands? If he's genuine about including the fans then the fans should have been consulted prior to the decision to move and they should be consulted now about the other questions, and probably more that haven't occurred to me.
As for the apathy that I believe exists, I'm afraid that's what I truly believe, and I include myself in it. I was heavily involved in the Thompson protests (which I still have doubts about to this day) and that was only about players sales and perceived lack of ambition versus caution and book-balancing. This is far more profound and has the potential, perhaps slight perhaps great potential, to change our club utterly and beyond recognition. I as an individual, and the supporters are a group are doing nothing pro-active about it that I know of. Part of that may be bad memories about previous efforts to engage ownership, part of it may be battle-fatigue, part of it may be because so many of us are individually happy. But as a group we have been are being bypassed on this most vital of issues and part of the reason we've allowed that to happen must be apathy.
"The opposite of love, after all, is not hate, but indifference."
Fernandes on London Calling on 23:48 - Jan 24 by BrianMcCarthy
Fantastic posts, Neil.
None of what Fernandes says matters to me. None of it. In time, he will be judged by us all on his actions. He is moving us out of Loftus Road into a new stadium which will affect our future more profoundly than any single action has done in the history he is just now studying, and likely to affect us more than any single act in the the next century.
He has done this with no prior consultation with the club's supporters. I find this very fact scandalous and shameful, and I find Rangers fans acceptance of it apathetic, anaemic and alarming. Talking to twitter fans and giving good interviews after the event is not consultation, it's PR.
He may end up being the best chairman we've ever had. He may end up being the worst. But my fear is that in ten years time, because of his actions and his lack of prior consultation, we won't recognise our club and most of us will have been driven away. So he'll surely be the most impactful chairman.
And what will we have done, but watch him?
Brian, I support TF in his attempt to make QPR at least a stable Premier team. I would not be happier in the Championship, or lower.
TF wants to build a 40k-seat stadium to contribute to the revenue stream to support a Premier team. I think he is right to do this, too. Sure, it is a big risk, but I want to see QPR be the best club it can be.
If you don't agree, speak up. Even as an ex-pat who hasn't seen a game since 1970, I still argue my opinion. The Hughes train-wreck was the best one when I was loud early and often.
Clive is right. Don't be mute watching things happen.
Fernandes on London Calling on 10:25 - Jan 25 by isawqpratwcity
Brian, I support TF in his attempt to make QPR at least a stable Premier team. I would not be happier in the Championship, or lower.
TF wants to build a 40k-seat stadium to contribute to the revenue stream to support a Premier team. I think he is right to do this, too. Sure, it is a big risk, but I want to see QPR be the best club it can be.
If you don't agree, speak up. Even as an ex-pat who hasn't seen a game since 1970, I still argue my opinion. The Hughes train-wreck was the best one when I was loud early and often.
Clive is right. Don't be mute watching things happen.
I actually do personally agree on the move, ISAW, though it makes me very sad. But I want to see fans consulted on it, and related aspects to it. I haven't been, and I don't think anyone else has either.
By the way, I'm an overseas fan too, these days. Not easy!
"The opposite of love, after all, is not hate, but indifference."
I'm very unsure about TF. I can see why he would buy QPR. We are a famous club in England, a London club with a massive catchment area that has loads of potential for a growing fan base and development. Fact is the club has taken a backwards step since he bought us,football wise. Ok he's put plans in place for Warren farm,new stadium etc,but that all counts for nothing if we don't achieve on the pitch. Its very,very early days and i can understand all opinions on this forum. With so many clubs financially crashing around us i personally am not convinced that TF alone is the man to make QPR a self sustainable football club in the premier league with a chance of European football. But i would be more reassured if say the Mittals were more vocal in there support of him. He does seem one of the nicest and understanding chairmen out there though.
[Post edited 25 Jan 2014 12:32]
Occasional providers of half decent House music.
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Fernandes on London Calling on 11:15 - Jan 25 with 1616 views
Fernandes on London Calling on 10:22 - Jan 25 by BrianMcCarthy
'Morning Antti,
How he consults is up to him. If he wished to he could call a meeting, hold fans forums, have mailshots among members,...many manners of ways are open to him, should he so wish.
The first step on what to consult is easy, and probably mere rubber-stamping as it would seem the vast majority of supporters are in favour of a move, so he can't lose on this one. He gives the fans what they want and they feel as if they're part of the process.
The rest carries with it some risk that he may have to accept and act on mandates that don't suit the project. What capacity? Standing/safe standing areas? Details on how season ticket holders are re-located? Single or two-tier stands? If he's genuine about including the fans then the fans should have been consulted prior to the decision to move and they should be consulted now about the other questions, and probably more that haven't occurred to me.
As for the apathy that I believe exists, I'm afraid that's what I truly believe, and I include myself in it. I was heavily involved in the Thompson protests (which I still have doubts about to this day) and that was only about players sales and perceived lack of ambition versus caution and book-balancing. This is far more profound and has the potential, perhaps slight perhaps great potential, to change our club utterly and beyond recognition. I as an individual, and the supporters are a group are doing nothing pro-active about it that I know of. Part of that may be bad memories about previous efforts to engage ownership, part of it may be battle-fatigue, part of it may be because so many of us are individually happy. But as a group we have been are being bypassed on this most vital of issues and part of the reason we've allowed that to happen must be apathy.
The problem is that as the owner (and/or representative of other owners) the only mandate he has to respect is the ownership. 'Consulting with the fans' doesn't mean stumping up his money to implement fans' wishes by some popular vote.
Jeez, have you forgotten the arrogant disregard of T&C that quickly? Clive's comments on the Coventry/Luton thread did hit home the risk that TF is putting us in, but I really can't help but support this.
Work through it, Brian. Community club (no offense, Neil, but that reads to me as some lower league club that manages existence by a self-sustaining youth program (God, I am such a class traitor!))? Stable Premier? Dreams of Glory? What do you want the club to be and how do we get there? You might even agree with the goal but disagree with the method; fine, you're an intelligent bloke, speak up.
Fernandes on London Calling on 11:15 - Jan 25 by isawqpratwcity
The problem is that as the owner (and/or representative of other owners) the only mandate he has to respect is the ownership. 'Consulting with the fans' doesn't mean stumping up his money to implement fans' wishes by some popular vote.
Jeez, have you forgotten the arrogant disregard of T&C that quickly? Clive's comments on the Coventry/Luton thread did hit home the risk that TF is putting us in, but I really can't help but support this.
Work through it, Brian. Community club (no offense, Neil, but that reads to me as some lower league club that manages existence by a self-sustaining youth program (God, I am such a class traitor!))? Stable Premier? Dreams of Glory? What do you want the club to be and how do we get there? You might even agree with the goal but disagree with the method; fine, you're an intelligent bloke, speak up.
This is me speaking up!
Look, I'm not naive. I know Fernandes is better than T&C, and better than the average. I also know that he has no requirement to consult with us whatsoever, but if he is truly the man of the people that he says he is why doesn't he actively consult and engage with us?
Where is the harm in it for him? Where is the risk? It's a non-binding process, and he can take some of our ideas, explain that others are good ideas but not workable for financial reasons and we all go away happy with a bit of dignity and a feeling of being part of something and having our part in it recognised by ownership. If I was a wise and cynical chairman I would engage and consult for these reasons only.
If I was a chairman who really respected supporters and the club's history I would also engage and consult with the club's supporters, but I would make it meaningful and I would truly listen. Imagine how much could be learned from a questionnaire distributed among members. Imagine the knowledge that fans have about stadia, about being supporters/customers/punters, about spending their money, about bringing new supporters to games, about being an away fan. Imagine how many times they've seen it done wrong. Imagine what I could learn if I was a chairman who needed knowledge. Imagine how much better a new stadium could be if this knowledge was somehow available.
It's neither moral or wise to fail to consult meaningfully with the supporters. Fernandes still has time. He can be both.
"The opposite of love, after all, is not hate, but indifference."
Fernandes on London Calling on 11:31 - Jan 25 by BrianMcCarthy
Isaw,
Thanks for putting me on to the Coventry/Luton thread. I'll have a read of that later. I've to get the hair cut now. New barber, so I'm cakking it!
You've only got one hair?
You're not wrong in your discomfort about 'consultation'. It's there, but the last reports from Clive and Neil at the Supporters' Association with Phil Beard left a lot to be desired.
You do have to assess this stuff on several levels.
Fernandes on London Calling on 09:58 - Jan 24 by QPR442
With the new stadium we will lose a few fans but also gain more due to a new stadium/interest/facilities and hopefully prem football. Can see many new plastics and tourists but sadly that's the way its going to happen.
Are the few fans we will lose really fans?Old Oak is hardly a goal kick from Loftus Road!
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Fernandes on London Calling on 12:23 - Jan 25 with 1552 views
Fernandes on London Calling on 23:48 - Jan 24 by BrianMcCarthy
Fantastic posts, Neil.
None of what Fernandes says matters to me. None of it. In time, he will be judged by us all on his actions. He is moving us out of Loftus Road into a new stadium which will affect our future more profoundly than any single action has done in the history he is just now studying, and likely to affect us more than any single act in the the next century.
He has done this with no prior consultation with the club's supporters. I find this very fact scandalous and shameful, and I find Rangers fans acceptance of it apathetic, anaemic and alarming. Talking to twitter fans and giving good interviews after the event is not consultation, it's PR.
He may end up being the best chairman we've ever had. He may end up being the worst. But my fear is that in ten years time, because of his actions and his lack of prior consultation, we won't recognise our club and most of us will have been driven away. So he'll surely be the most impactful chairman.
And what will we have done, but watch him?
Top post Mr Mcarthy !!! i was one of the those against the move and like you was fuming that no fan groups were consulted , those who say anything against uncle tony are shouted down on this MB as not being fans of the club, briatore lovers , chelsea fans etc because he goes on twitter & walks around the springbok he can do no wrong face the facts TF is earning a packet out of us moving to Old oak common "the new canary wharf" he doesnt give a stuff about us or our history he has practically gambled his way during his tenture of our club, over expensive signingings, c*ap managers, duff CEO's etc there as never been a steady plan since TF took over just a succession of c*ck ups
And Bowles is onside, Swinburne has come rushing out of his goal , what can Bowles do here , onto the left foot no, on to the right foot
That’s there that’s two, and that’s Bowles
Brian Moore
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