| Shocking if true on 14:47 - Mar 4 with 2009 views | hoopstilidie |
| Shocking if true on 14:43 - Mar 4 by NW5Hoop |
Turning your own question back on you: who's your man on the Mirror, then? |
I don't have one. easy though isn't it this quoting lark?
Funny how anybody that has said the story holds no water has stood up to be accountable but the only "evidence" to the contrary comes from unknown sources isn't it? But you'll choose to believe that due to your journalistic impulse being to defend the press.
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| Shocking if true on 14:50 - Mar 4 with 1996 views | Northernr |
| Shocking if true on 14:47 - Mar 4 by hoopstilidie |
I don't have one. easy though isn't it this quoting lark?
Funny how anybody that has said the story holds no water has stood up to be accountable but the only "evidence" to the contrary comes from unknown sources isn't it? But you'll choose to believe that due to your journalistic impulse being to defend the press.
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That's not really fair. He's not defending the press because he works in the press - I work in the press and slag them off on here all the time - he's defending them because he knows how it works. You cannot run a load of quotes like that and say they came from a player if a player didn't say them to you. If the story was saying "a source close to the player" then I'd be with you but a journalist cannot simply make up quotes to that level of detail and attribute them to a member of the playing staff named or otherwise if that's not what he was told.
Now, there are certainly other ways to call the story into question - the player could have made it up himself for instance. |  | | |
| Shocking if true on 14:55 - Mar 4 with 1974 views | bob566 |
| Shocking if true on 14:50 - Mar 4 by Northernr |
That's not really fair. He's not defending the press because he works in the press - I work in the press and slag them off on here all the time - he's defending them because he knows how it works. You cannot run a load of quotes like that and say they came from a player if a player didn't say them to you. If the story was saying "a source close to the player" then I'd be with you but a journalist cannot simply make up quotes to that level of detail and attribute them to a member of the playing staff named or otherwise if that's not what he was told.
Now, there are certainly other ways to call the story into question - the player could have made it up himself for instance. |
decency within the press like the news of the world. Decency like the sun throwing up a picture of pretorious missus in a bikini after she was shot.
Clive i know you'd like to think that's the way the press works but maybe in this instance this journo didn't comply. Just a thought. |  | | |
| Shocking if true on 14:55 - Mar 4 with 1970 views | hoopstilidie |
| Shocking if true on 14:50 - Mar 4 by Northernr |
That's not really fair. He's not defending the press because he works in the press - I work in the press and slag them off on here all the time - he's defending them because he knows how it works. You cannot run a load of quotes like that and say they came from a player if a player didn't say them to you. If the story was saying "a source close to the player" then I'd be with you but a journalist cannot simply make up quotes to that level of detail and attribute them to a member of the playing staff named or otherwise if that's not what he was told.
Now, there are certainly other ways to call the story into question - the player could have made it up himself for instance. |
You're right, that would be dishonest wouldn't it?
Heaven forbid we ever got any dishonest members of the press.
As for your other point that the player (if he exists) could have made it up, sure he could. As I said the only attributable info has come from people that don't side with the papers' story, including DubaiRs, but he is dismissed as he isn't with the team 24/7, though the un-named person/people were (though we have no tangible evidence to back this up). | |
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| Shocking if true on 14:56 - Mar 4 with 1968 views | NW5Hoop |
| Shocking if true on 14:42 - Mar 4 by essextaxiboy |
What about an agent with an axe to grind speaking for 3 players ?
If Lipton said to the agent can I quote them on that? If the answer was yes would he use it .
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No. The quotes are from the players. They are not from the agent. It would have been "sources close to" if it had been the agent. | | | |
| Shocking if true on 14:58 - Mar 4 with 1962 views | hoopstilidie |
| Shocking if true on 14:56 - Mar 4 by NW5Hoop |
No. The quotes are from the players. They are not from the agent. It would have been "sources close to" if it had been the agent. |
Why would it?
Is it the "honest press" business again as I mentioned above?
have you never seen a "quote" from anybody in the papers that turned out to be complete hogwash? | |
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| Shocking if true on 15:00 - Mar 4 with 1956 views | NW5Hoop |
| Shocking if true on 14:55 - Mar 4 by hoopstilidie |
You're right, that would be dishonest wouldn't it?
Heaven forbid we ever got any dishonest members of the press.
As for your other point that the player (if he exists) could have made it up, sure he could. As I said the only attributable info has come from people that don't side with the papers' story, including DubaiRs, but he is dismissed as he isn't with the team 24/7, though the un-named person/people were (though we have no tangible evidence to back this up). |
I don't think a story this thoroughly sourced would ever have been made up. And certainly post-Leveson I don't think a paper would dare run a story like this unless they were confident it stood up, in the sense that the quotes were genuine, and the three players corroborated each other.
People can dismiss the libel laws, but we have the toughest libel laws in the world. If the Mirror has made this up, QPR can and should sue, and they will win, because the emphasis is on the publisher to prove their story, not the other way round. | | | |
| Shocking if true on 15:04 - Mar 4 with 1945 views | hoopstilidie |
| Shocking if true on 15:00 - Mar 4 by NW5Hoop |
I don't think a story this thoroughly sourced would ever have been made up. And certainly post-Leveson I don't think a paper would dare run a story like this unless they were confident it stood up, in the sense that the quotes were genuine, and the three players corroborated each other.
People can dismiss the libel laws, but we have the toughest libel laws in the world. If the Mirror has made this up, QPR can and should sue, and they will win, because the emphasis is on the publisher to prove their story, not the other way round. |
"This thoroughly sourced"? They couldn't even get Samba's wage correct, why should I believe anything else? | |
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| Shocking if true on 15:08 - Mar 4 with 1940 views | daveB |
| Shocking if true on 14:56 - Mar 4 by NW5Hoop |
No. The quotes are from the players. They are not from the agent. It would have been "sources close to" if it had been the agent. |
your just guessing though, how do you know three players spoke to him. This bloke from the Mirror might just be saying that to sex up the story and it was only one player or just the agent on behalf of a player. |  | | |
| Shocking if true on 15:14 - Mar 4 with 1921 views | spencer |
This story would have more creedance if the players quoting, were big enough to step forward and put a name to these allegations.
I was at work and bored late last night, so sent Oliver Holt at the mirror a few questions re this issue on twitter.He chose to ignore me but have a chat with Joey barton....On Sunday morning supplement, he was saying something a little different to this.
Untill someone goes on record and confirms the above, who knows what the truth is.It's out there somewhere..ask Deep throat. |  | | |
| Shocking if true on 15:29 - Mar 4 with 1890 views | TW_R |
I've no idea whether this story is true or not and I suspect we will never find out, but to suggest journalists for papers like the Mirror don't make things up is just plain wrong. The Mirror sacked it's editor (Morgan) for publishing fake Iraq abuse photos back in 2004.
And there was the story about two of their "City Slicker" journalists who were done for deliberately tipping certain stocks to push the values up or down so they could cash in on the shares they owned or wanted to buy.
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| Shocking if true on 15:29 - Mar 4 with 1888 views | DubaiR |
| Shocking if true on 15:14 - Mar 4 by spencer |
This story would have more creedance if the players quoting, were big enough to step forward and put a name to these allegations.
I was at work and bored late last night, so sent Oliver Holt at the mirror a few questions re this issue on twitter.He chose to ignore me but have a chat with Joey barton....On Sunday morning supplement, he was saying something a little different to this.
Untill someone goes on record and confirms the above, who knows what the truth is.It's out there somewhere..ask Deep throat. |
Assuming they were drinking in the hotel all afternoon or the night from the mini bars (sure if in bars we would of heard / seen, especially over here like Steve b posted on dotorg)then they looked remarkably fresh in the morning. Considering it was 27-30 degrees at that time surely any hangover would have been evident, maybe not 1 day but the quote says it was a week long stag do! Funny west ham didn't train as didn't book training facilities, there were seen in bars/nightclubs on three occasions yet nothing. We had one night out with some other players of others teams and 1 player was worse for ware and put in a taxi, he hasn't featured or been included since. |  | | |
| Shocking if true on 15:38 - Mar 4 with 1853 views | spencer |
| Shocking if true on 15:29 - Mar 4 by DubaiR |
Assuming they were drinking in the hotel all afternoon or the night from the mini bars (sure if in bars we would of heard / seen, especially over here like Steve b posted on dotorg)then they looked remarkably fresh in the morning. Considering it was 27-30 degrees at that time surely any hangover would have been evident, maybe not 1 day but the quote says it was a week long stag do! Funny west ham didn't train as didn't book training facilities, there were seen in bars/nightclubs on three occasions yet nothing. We had one night out with some other players of others teams and 1 player was worse for ware and put in a taxi, he hasn't featured or been included since. |
 Do we know who that player was?
Also - no disrespect - but fake photo's from Iraq concerning what is going on out there and a football team on the "alleged" lash...no comparison.
I would like to think this is a mountain out of a mole hill( if that) started by a player who is sh.t can't get into the team because he is sh.t and feels slighted so has got his mum/agent to write in on his behalf. | | | |
| Shocking if true on 15:39 - Mar 4 with 1849 views | Antti_Heinola |
| Shocking if true on 15:29 - Mar 4 by TW_R |
I've no idea whether this story is true or not and I suspect we will never find out, but to suggest journalists for papers like the Mirror don't make things up is just plain wrong. The Mirror sacked it's editor (Morgan) for publishing fake Iraq abuse photos back in 2004.
And there was the story about two of their "City Slicker" journalists who were done for deliberately tipping certain stocks to push the values up or down so they could cash in on the shares they owned or wanted to buy.
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I can't stand Morgan, but the problem there was that they thought they were real and didn't thoroughly check them. They didn't publish dishonestly - just used awful judgement.
There's some real straw-clutching going on here. There's nothing even particularly damning about the article apart from the fact that at least 3 players are genuinely angry about how things are going and have gone and are angry at players and management. I'm not sure how anyone can confidently say these things are just, simply 'made up'. It's ludicrous. |  |
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| Shocking if true on 15:50 - Mar 4 with 1814 views | hopphoops |
The whole thing is a collection of non-stories stitched together:
- splits between players - those whose salaries will fall if we're relegated presumably arrived more recently, and would mainly be on higher basic salaries. longer-serving players have publicly said they're not trying enough, so no surprise if they're happy to have a dig back.
- it was like a holiday: ok the working day finished early, but it sounds like the other teams there did even less. Can't expect the players to fill their time organising opta index workshops for themselves or playing keepy-uppy.
- one big stag do: everyone got the chance for a night out, it wasn't planned but turned out to have legs, like the typical stag-do Friday night when everyone's just met up, leaving everyone a bit dazed and the planned Saturday night blow-out a bit subdued. perhaps they'd been working quite hard and stressed and not drinking much for a while too. maybe later in the trip they also all put on matching t-shirts and went karting or something.
of course british footballers could work harder for their money; but there's nothing 'astonishing' in the story. the main problem is I've now got a disturbing mental picture of shaun derry being helped into a taxi, a bit the worse for wear and dressed like his tattoo dog. |  |
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| Shocking if true on 15:52 - Mar 4 with 1807 views | hopphoops |
The whole thing is a collection of non-stories stitched together:
- splits between players - those whose salaries will fall if we're relegated presumably arrived more recently, and would mainly be on higher basic salaries. longer-serving players have publicly said they're not trying enough, so no surprise if they're happy to have a dig back.
- it was like a holiday: ok the working day finished early, but it sounds like the other teams there did even less. Can't expect the players to fill their time organising opta index workshops for themselves or playing keepy-uppy.
- one big stag do: everyone got the chance for a night out, it wasn't planned but turned out to have legs, like the typical stag-do Friday night when everyone's just met up, leaving everyone a bit dazed and the planned Saturday night blow-out a bit subdued. perhaps they'd been working quite hard and stressed and not drinking much for a while too. maybe later in the trip they also all put on matching t-shirts and went karting or something.
of course british footballers could work harder for their money; but there's nothing 'astonishing' in the story. the main problem is I've now got a disturbing mental picture of shaun derry being helped into a taxi, a bit the worse for wear and dressed like his tattoo dog. | |
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| Shocking if true on 16:11 - Mar 4 with 1777 views | hoopstilidie |
| Shocking if true on 15:39 - Mar 4 by Antti_Heinola |
I can't stand Morgan, but the problem there was that they thought they were real and didn't thoroughly check them. They didn't publish dishonestly - just used awful judgement.
There's some real straw-clutching going on here. There's nothing even particularly damning about the article apart from the fact that at least 3 players are genuinely angry about how things are going and have gone and are angry at players and management. I'm not sure how anyone can confidently say these things are just, simply 'made up'. It's ludicrous. |
"at least 3 players are genuinely angry about how things are going and have gone and are angry at players and management."
You keep stating this as a fact, you do not know if it's true or not you're merely presuming it is. people with a different viewpoint have stood up and named themselves.
" I'm not sure how anyone can confidently say these things are just, simply 'made up'. It's ludicrous."
I'm not sure how you can confidently say they aren't. What's more ludicrous is believing un-named people over people prepared to stand up publicly. | |
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| Shocking if true on 16:16 - Mar 4 with 1765 views | TacticalR |
What's needed is an independent fact-finding mission to be flown out to tour the bars and hotels of Dubai to investigate the truth behind these shocking allegations. |  |
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| Shocking if true on 16:18 - Mar 4 with 1758 views | stuabd |
davidmcintyre76: Man slams article quoting unnamed players, says unnamed agent is to blame& that unnamed club made bid for his player.There's a name for that |  | | |
| Shocking if true on 16:23 - Mar 4 with 1749 views | hoopstilidie |
| Shocking if true on 16:18 - Mar 4 by stuabd |
davidmcintyre76: Man slams article quoting unnamed players, says unnamed agent is to blame& that unnamed club made bid for his player.There's a name for that |
Agreed there is, it's called accountability. | |
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| Shocking if true on 16:24 - Mar 4 with 1744 views | Hunterhoop |
| Shocking if true on 14:38 - Mar 4 by NW5Hoop |
Unless DubaiR was with the players 24/7 while they were there, he remains a less reliable source than three of the actual players … |
No. You just haven't even bothered trying to comprehend a point different to your own there. That's just lazy and irritating.
An independent account at the time (since which Harry has come up with a remarkably similar account)
vs
The reported accounts of 3 players in the media.
Now clearly DubaiR wasn't with them. But that doesn't discredit his account. He was still there watching training and at the time posted how hard they were being worked and never once commented that they looked hungover.
And my whole point was that 3 players, who are disguntled at not being picked regularly, come from different backgrounds, with different approaches to "team bonding", alcohol, have different views on the manager, different views on certain fellow team members, etc, etc....not to mention possibly represented by an agent with an axe to grind (who could easily manipulate their thinking on the "night out" to one of disgust) and you can quite easily end up at "3 accounts from players" which bears no resemblance to the truth.
I'm not saying it's shoddy journalism from the media, so you can pipe down on that front.
What I'm saying is 3 players who were there may well "view" the world very differently from you, me or the majority of the players and fans, may well have an axe to grind, may well not get on with some of the players involved and GOD FORBID, might have been exaggerating things.
That's not the fault of the journalist. It's his job to report a story that sells.
But when it comes down to the above, I am more inclined to trust the INDEPENDENT report given at the time by someone not likely to be influenced by all the things 3 players might be influenced by.
Whether he was present 24/7 or not.
So you assertion that he remains a less reliable source is frankly b*llocks.
Remember that phrase about "History is written by the victorious"? Well, the victorious were usually present 24/7 on the battlefield. It didn't mean their account was true or a fair representation of what happened.
An independent observer is far more valuable. Isn't that part of the reason we have a free press in the first place?? |  | | |
| Shocking if true on 16:46 - Mar 4 with 1711 views | TW_R |
| Shocking if true on 15:39 - Mar 4 by Antti_Heinola |
I can't stand Morgan, but the problem there was that they thought they were real and didn't thoroughly check them. They didn't publish dishonestly - just used awful judgement.
There's some real straw-clutching going on here. There's nothing even particularly damning about the article apart from the fact that at least 3 players are genuinely angry about how things are going and have gone and are angry at players and management. I'm not sure how anyone can confidently say these things are just, simply 'made up'. It's ludicrous. |
Whether the "source" information is correct or not is irrelevent. As Morgan discovered with the loss of his job. If the story is false, it's false. If the journalist hasn't vetted the story then he is responsible for the lies in it, no?
The problem is that journalists publish made-up stories on a regular basis. You only have to listen to hundreds of people in the public eye that read stories about themselves that are just ridiculous. Just look at all the transfer rumours that go around. 90% of them are bollox made up by agents or journalists. To suggest this doesn't happen is a nonsense. | | | |
| Shocking if true on 16:47 - Mar 4 with 1706 views | hoopstilidie |
Remember this?
http://www.malcolmcoles.co.uk/blog/daily-mail-guuilt/
Quotes, so must be true.
And trying to defend the "fact" that nobody would invent quotes on the QPR story because it simply isn't important enough is a nonsense. If it had no import then the story wouldn't have run at all. | |
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| Shocking if true on 17:25 - Mar 4 with 2086 views | Antti_Heinola |
| Shocking if true on 16:47 - Mar 4 by hoopstilidie |
Remember this?
http://www.malcolmcoles.co.uk/blog/daily-mail-guuilt/
Quotes, so must be true.
And trying to defend the "fact" that nobody would invent quotes on the QPR story because it simply isn't important enough is a nonsense. If it had no import then the story wouldn't have run at all. |
Oh God, fine, Hoops, if it makes you feel better it was all made up. No one went out, all the players are happy, no player has any concern about the management, no one drunk too much, we aren't bottom of the league, all the players love each other, they all worked terribly, terribly hard out there on team spirit and patterns of play and tactics and training and everything is utterly, totally fine.
Either the guy at the Mirror made it all up one day for fun, or it's a huge Mark Hughes based conspiracy or those terrible evil agents are behind it all. One of the three. Now, you may sleep more comfortably in your moses basket tonight. | |
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| Shocking if true on 17:37 - Mar 4 with 2067 views | Hunterhoop |
| Shocking if true on 17:25 - Mar 4 by Antti_Heinola |
Oh God, fine, Hoops, if it makes you feel better it was all made up. No one went out, all the players are happy, no player has any concern about the management, no one drunk too much, we aren't bottom of the league, all the players love each other, they all worked terribly, terribly hard out there on team spirit and patterns of play and tactics and training and everything is utterly, totally fine.
Either the guy at the Mirror made it all up one day for fun, or it's a huge Mark Hughes based conspiracy or those terrible evil agents are behind it all. One of the three. Now, you may sleep more comfortably in your moses basket tonight. |
Now now. Don't be petty.
It's not one of the other.
The players could have gone out, some players could have concerns about the management, some players could have drunk too much, some players might not like each other, some probably didn't work terribly, terribly hard and everything probably isn't fine.
But it's quite possible too, that the accounts of the three players quoted was grossly exaggerated due to all the reasons I gave in previous quotes and, in effect, not true. Not the journalist's fault but unfair and untrue nevertheless.
They are mutually exclusive points, not intertwined. | | | |
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