| Squad of missing men 11:59 - Dec 5 with 11269 views | WestbourneR |
What's happened to Ryan Manning? He's probably injured and I missed it but he wasn't really in the team when fit this season either.
Got to say I think that's a shame and another reason why we need to tweak our formation to make room for people like him.
For me, last season, Manning coming into the team turned us around. His bite but most importantly his guile and vision and use of the ball really made us tick as an attacking force. Good set piece too. His assist with the outside of his boot vs Reading away was a highlight moment. True class.
We've got so many players in the squad and yet it seems totally unclear how they fit the formation or who our strongest selection is. Where do Shodipo, Manning, Osayi-Samuel, Cousins, Ngbakoto, Ariel, Wheeler all fit in our team? I feel there is a bunch of talent there with no plan to make room for them on the pitch. Are Jamie Mackie and Conor Washington really our best players? Isn't it time some of the new blood got a decent run? Otherwise why did we buy them?
The squad is very big, very messy and I don't believe Holloway has any idea how to get it organised. He seems to keep buying players and then have no idea how to use them. He told Northern in his interview that he'd bought wingers to supply our aerially strong forwards - and yet this season we've not played a system or formation that has done that once. Tbh JFH was the same.
It's getting on my nerves. Just play with some wingers and some width!! Is it that hard???
Sorry, ranting. Rant over. |  |
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| Squad of missing men on 01:52 - Dec 6 with 1770 views | bob566 |
| Squad of missing men on 01:27 - Dec 6 by PunteR |
Just a quick point on the lack of striker signings. There is no point in spending big money on one player if our goal isnt promotion. Which it isnt. Even if we brought in a 20 goal a season striker and we somehow got promoted, our club isnt ready for the premier league anyway. |
Survival. Not premier league. We're miles away from that |  | | |
| Squad of missing men on 09:26 - Dec 6 with 1658 views | stevec |
| Squad of missing men on 00:26 - Dec 6 by LythamR |
I think Scowen was a great bit of business
This wont be popular but i think the central midfielder that needs to go is Loungo, there are simply not enough goals and assists from him considering where he is playing, We could probably sell him for at least what we paid and this would give other players more of a chance and break the problem Northern mentions with Holloway feeling he has to play Loungo, Freeman and Scowen
I keep seeing people saying he has had an amazing game but often we have lost or drawn these games, I just dont think he has enough influence on results, he picked up earlier this season for a handful of games but has gone back to his general level, which isnt bad but its not influential.
Meanwhile we have the likes of Wheeler, Bright, Shodipo barely getting a sniff and thats a waste as well as being a disincentive to other players we may be trying to sign |
Luongo has made a much better contribution this season but I do agree.
We've spent two and a half seasons shoe horning him into various midfield roles trying to find something that fits. This season I keep hearing about the tackles he's made and, to be fair, he does but the role he's got should be creating and scoring a few goals and it's not happening.
As you say, we probably could get a fee for him and sacrifices are going to have to be made if we're going to get a desperately needed forward in.
As for the points made on this thread about waiting until next season, fair enough if we start creating a gap between us and the bottom 3 in the next few weeks but we are 6 points off the bottom 3 and that could evaporate quite quickly. |  | | |
| Squad of missing men on 10:46 - Dec 6 with 1636 views | Antti_Heinola |
| Squad of missing men on 00:26 - Dec 6 by LythamR |
I think Scowen was a great bit of business
This wont be popular but i think the central midfielder that needs to go is Loungo, there are simply not enough goals and assists from him considering where he is playing, We could probably sell him for at least what we paid and this would give other players more of a chance and break the problem Northern mentions with Holloway feeling he has to play Loungo, Freeman and Scowen
I keep seeing people saying he has had an amazing game but often we have lost or drawn these games, I just dont think he has enough influence on results, he picked up earlier this season for a handful of games but has gone back to his general level, which isnt bad but its not influential.
Meanwhile we have the likes of Wheeler, Bright, Shodipo barely getting a sniff and thats a waste as well as being a disincentive to other players we may be trying to sign |
If we can get a couple of mill for Loungo I'd sell, but I'd definitely keep Luongo, who's probably player of the season at the moment for me. Agree Scowen a superb signing and a much better player than Manning. But yes, midfielders do need to come up with more goals. When Luongo plays well, we play well. His commitment v Brentford was amazing. Tried to make a tackle with his ribs at one stage. |  |
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| Squad of missing men on 10:59 - Dec 6 with 1629 views | bob566 |
| Squad of missing men on 10:46 - Dec 6 by Antti_Heinola |
If we can get a couple of mill for Loungo I'd sell, but I'd definitely keep Luongo, who's probably player of the season at the moment for me. Agree Scowen a superb signing and a much better player than Manning. But yes, midfielders do need to come up with more goals. When Luongo plays well, we play well. His commitment v Brentford was amazing. Tried to make a tackle with his ribs at one stage. |
he carried the team and raised them up against Brentford. Come on man. We were absolute gash. Brentford made a mockery of us at home and had all the bragging rights bar the last two kicks of the game. | | | |
| Squad of missing men on 11:10 - Dec 6 with 1615 views | WestbourneR |
| Squad of missing men on 10:46 - Dec 6 by Antti_Heinola |
If we can get a couple of mill for Loungo I'd sell, but I'd definitely keep Luongo, who's probably player of the season at the moment for me. Agree Scowen a superb signing and a much better player than Manning. But yes, midfielders do need to come up with more goals. When Luongo plays well, we play well. His commitment v Brentford was amazing. Tried to make a tackle with his ribs at one stage. |
Antti surely you're looking for a reaction when you say Scowen is a 'much better player than Manning'. Scowen has done very well - he's a very good defensive midfielder but he is different to Manning not better.
Manning has assists and goals in him. He's has guile and creativity that Scowen doesn't have.
He was brilliant last season. We need to get him going again. He could be worth £5mill by now. | |
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| Squad of missing men on 11:48 - Dec 6 with 1572 views | kensalriser |
Slightly surprised to see blithe comments about selling the likes of Smithies, Luongo, Onuoha and Freeman. I can't see us being able to replace three to five of our best players with equivalent quality at one go, which would mean likely relegation soon after. [Post edited 6 Dec 2017 22:38]
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| Squad of missing men on 11:48 - Dec 6 with 1571 views | WadR |
I know we've conceded a fair few recently (and barely kept a clean sheet all season) but remember how in a number of games last year it was basically Smithies v the world?
Especially in the second half of the season, the back 4 had zero protection from midfield. Scowen has improved that massively. His ability to sniff out danger, cover and anticipate areas we are overrun is something that I don't think Manning has the ability for.
Luongo, most tackles in the league (2nd season running), 8th in league for completed dribbles and I think notably has looked a lot more confident and likely to score this season. His long shots look stronger and more dangerous, he's come very close to scoring on a few occasions - I think someone found the stats comparing his shooting from last season and the number of shots he is taking is exponentially up.
A high scoring central midfielder is a rarity in the Championship. Hourihane has 5, George Saville has 6 - but I think some of those are set pieces. I remember Peter Whittingham getting 20 a few years ago, but that included a lot of penalties and free kicks too.
We have 3 excellent central midfielders who combine well - it's the only really fully functioning part of the team - and who all have assets that are very important to the team. Manning's lack of minutes is just a slightly unfortunate byproduct of this.
Far more concerned by our front 3 and would like to see Ollie have some continuity with selection there and give a set trio a number of games in the same set up. | | | |
| Squad of missing men on 12:07 - Dec 6 with 1556 views | WestbourneR |
| Squad of missing men on 11:48 - Dec 6 by WadR |
I know we've conceded a fair few recently (and barely kept a clean sheet all season) but remember how in a number of games last year it was basically Smithies v the world?
Especially in the second half of the season, the back 4 had zero protection from midfield. Scowen has improved that massively. His ability to sniff out danger, cover and anticipate areas we are overrun is something that I don't think Manning has the ability for.
Luongo, most tackles in the league (2nd season running), 8th in league for completed dribbles and I think notably has looked a lot more confident and likely to score this season. His long shots look stronger and more dangerous, he's come very close to scoring on a few occasions - I think someone found the stats comparing his shooting from last season and the number of shots he is taking is exponentially up.
A high scoring central midfielder is a rarity in the Championship. Hourihane has 5, George Saville has 6 - but I think some of those are set pieces. I remember Peter Whittingham getting 20 a few years ago, but that included a lot of penalties and free kicks too.
We have 3 excellent central midfielders who combine well - it's the only really fully functioning part of the team - and who all have assets that are very important to the team. Manning's lack of minutes is just a slightly unfortunate byproduct of this.
Far more concerned by our front 3 and would like to see Ollie have some continuity with selection there and give a set trio a number of games in the same set up. |
WadR. I agree and I think most do that breaking up the midfield trio is not a plan.
But a change of formation would allow them to stay together and get wingers in the team - and Manning would be one. He lacks pace but he has delivery. | |
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| Squad of missing men on 12:11 - Dec 6 with 1546 views | WadR |
| Squad of missing men on 12:07 - Dec 6 by WestbourneR |
WadR. I agree and I think most do that breaking up the midfield trio is not a plan.
But a change of formation would allow them to stay together and get wingers in the team - and Manning would be one. He lacks pace but he has delivery. |
Agree about change of formation, would be very happy to see 4-3-3 of 4-2-3-1.
Not sure about Manning wide, I think I'd rather see Yeni (yes, really) or Osayi-Samuel given a run of games on the left but perhaps for away games it would give us a little bit more protection and solidity and he's definitely one of the better crossers in the squad. | | | |
| Squad of missing men on 12:20 - Dec 6 with 1536 views | Antti_Heinola |
| Squad of missing men on 11:10 - Dec 6 by WestbourneR |
Antti surely you're looking for a reaction when you say Scowen is a 'much better player than Manning'. Scowen has done very well - he's a very good defensive midfielder but he is different to Manning not better.
Manning has assists and goals in him. He's has guile and creativity that Scowen doesn't have.
He was brilliant last season. We need to get him going again. He could be worth £5mill by now. |
sorry, meant a better player than Manning in his position - base of the midfield. They're different players of course.
I like Manning, but think people got well over-excited about him. I hope you're right, but doubt he'll ever be worth £2m let alone £5m. | |
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| Squad of missing men on 13:22 - Dec 6 with 1468 views | Dorse |
Really enjoying this thread.
For what it's worth, I think the 4-3-3 option looks very good at the moment, especially with the defensive situation in which we find ourselves. All things being equal, there is a pretty decent team in there somewhere. Play with a bit of width and see what happens - you never know. |  |
| 'What do we want? We don't know! When do we want it? Now!' |
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| Squad of missing men on 13:52 - Dec 6 with 1430 views | Northernr |
Just to throw a further similar theme to the OP in, reading Sinton's interview about both wingers and buying players to play and improve your team, think it's a real shame that we've added Wheeler and Samuel and they've had so little game time, and almost none at all in their correct positions. |  | | |
| Squad of missing men on 14:02 - Dec 6 with 1417 views | R_from_afar |
To my mind, this is actually the first time we have had a decent central midfield since Derry was still playing. Ollie deserves some credit for that. Scowen plays a pivotal role, regardless of whether he scores any goals, because it is essential for us to have at least one full time defensive midfielder in the formation. He does that job well, in a very disciplined way.
RFA |  |
| "Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1." |
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| Squad of missing men on 14:08 - Dec 6 with 1407 views | WestbourneR |
| Squad of missing men on 13:52 - Dec 6 by Northernr |
Just to throw a further similar theme to the OP in, reading Sinton's interview about both wingers and buying players to play and improve your team, think it's a real shame that we've added Wheeler and Samuel and they've had so little game time, and almost none at all in their correct positions. |
Was thinking just that when I was reading Sinton's interview North - it was all so deliberate and planned, based exactly on knowing how and when a player would be replaced within the system when one of our rough diamonds matures and moves on for a big fee.
Sinton is going - we had Sinclair lined up
Willo left - we had Brevett lined up
We sold Wegerle - we had fancy stairs lined up for the Loft
There are so many more examples. Arguably it fell apart when we sold Ferdinand, a young pacy goal machine, and replaced him with that old crocked donkey Hateley and we've never got the system back on track. (Have you said this all before Northern? Probably...)
You could say buying Washington for Austin was a (failed) attempt to get back to that.
But Wheeler and Osayi-Samuel just look wasteful. Wheeler scored something like 20 goals from the wing for Exeter in one season and yet he's pretty much never played as a right winger for us.
I'd say it's almost criminal.
Osayi-Samuel hasn't seen the light of day!
If we are cash strapped, ok we really are, we need to be buying rough diamond players who have a clearly planned role in the team and play - otherwise we're wasting money on players for the bench or even less. You can't say that spending a season not playing first team football is going to help Osayi-Samuel or Wheeler improve.
It smacks of very very jumbled thinking and it's a big worry for me. I put that lack of clarity of thought at Holloway's door, sorry. | |
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| Squad of missing men on 14:26 - Dec 6 with 1384 views | Antti_Heinola |
| Squad of missing men on 14:08 - Dec 6 by WestbourneR |
Was thinking just that when I was reading Sinton's interview North - it was all so deliberate and planned, based exactly on knowing how and when a player would be replaced within the system when one of our rough diamonds matures and moves on for a big fee.
Sinton is going - we had Sinclair lined up
Willo left - we had Brevett lined up
We sold Wegerle - we had fancy stairs lined up for the Loft
There are so many more examples. Arguably it fell apart when we sold Ferdinand, a young pacy goal machine, and replaced him with that old crocked donkey Hateley and we've never got the system back on track. (Have you said this all before Northern? Probably...)
You could say buying Washington for Austin was a (failed) attempt to get back to that.
But Wheeler and Osayi-Samuel just look wasteful. Wheeler scored something like 20 goals from the wing for Exeter in one season and yet he's pretty much never played as a right winger for us.
I'd say it's almost criminal.
Osayi-Samuel hasn't seen the light of day!
If we are cash strapped, ok we really are, we need to be buying rough diamond players who have a clearly planned role in the team and play - otherwise we're wasting money on players for the bench or even less. You can't say that spending a season not playing first team football is going to help Osayi-Samuel or Wheeler improve.
It smacks of very very jumbled thinking and it's a big worry for me. I put that lack of clarity of thought at Holloway's door, sorry. |
Very good points mate.
As I said before, I think they very much bought Bright for next season - no one thought he was ready just yet for Championship fotball, but the opportunity to buy came up and they went for it - Penrice and Johnson both really liked him as a prospect. Similar, actually, to when we signed Brevett, who we had well before Willo left (in fact he had been at the club 4 years by the time Willo left!). I'm not saying we wait four years until Bright is ready of course! But I don't think it's a waste him not paying, he really wasn't bought for now.
Wheeler is another case, and totally agree with you there. I would really like to see him as part of a 4-3-3 (or 4-2-3-1) and maybe he'll get his chance now Mackie will be suspended. He's a good age, so only really a run of games will see him settle at a higher level.
The Washington buy was exactly as you said, sadly it hasn't worked that way (very unfair on Washington to expect him to fill Austin's boots, though). But your Les point is right. With Sinton we had Sinclair, with Willo we had Brevett. But with Les we had two teenagers (Dichio and Gallen). Both were better than Hateley who was bought late and injured. The signing they should have made, and made the previous January before Les went, was for John Hartson, who would have been perfect. We were linked and could have had him for £1m. He could have played some games before Les left so he wasn't having to fill his shoes quite so explicitly. I actually think we may even have stayed up if we had made that signing. | |
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| Squad of missing men on 14:29 - Dec 6 with 1381 views | Match82 |
To be honest I'm surprised we haven't tried 451 more often considering we have a lack of defenders, a lack of forwards, a plethora of great center midfield options and several good or promising winners who can't get a game in their correct position |  | | |
| Squad of missing men on 14:50 - Dec 6 with 1365 views | WestbourneR |
| Squad of missing men on 14:26 - Dec 6 by Antti_Heinola |
Very good points mate.
As I said before, I think they very much bought Bright for next season - no one thought he was ready just yet for Championship fotball, but the opportunity to buy came up and they went for it - Penrice and Johnson both really liked him as a prospect. Similar, actually, to when we signed Brevett, who we had well before Willo left (in fact he had been at the club 4 years by the time Willo left!). I'm not saying we wait four years until Bright is ready of course! But I don't think it's a waste him not paying, he really wasn't bought for now.
Wheeler is another case, and totally agree with you there. I would really like to see him as part of a 4-3-3 (or 4-2-3-1) and maybe he'll get his chance now Mackie will be suspended. He's a good age, so only really a run of games will see him settle at a higher level.
The Washington buy was exactly as you said, sadly it hasn't worked that way (very unfair on Washington to expect him to fill Austin's boots, though). But your Les point is right. With Sinton we had Sinclair, with Willo we had Brevett. But with Les we had two teenagers (Dichio and Gallen). Both were better than Hateley who was bought late and injured. The signing they should have made, and made the previous January before Les went, was for John Hartson, who would have been perfect. We were linked and could have had him for £1m. He could have played some games before Les left so he wasn't having to fill his shoes quite so explicitly. I actually think we may even have stayed up if we had made that signing. |
Cheers Antti. Same to you - didn't realise Brevett had been with us so long. Good player, no WIlson.
And yeah Hartson would have been good. Got to say though I felt we were crying out for a bit of pace when Ferdinand left.
About Osayi-Samuel. I don't see how a year in the reserves can make you better player that than the first team in League Two. Ok he may not be 'ready' but he should be getting subs appearances and the some starts at the very least. | |
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| Squad of missing men on 15:28 - Dec 6 with 1345 views | Antti_Heinola |
| Squad of missing men on 14:50 - Dec 6 by WestbourneR |
Cheers Antti. Same to you - didn't realise Brevett had been with us so long. Good player, no WIlson.
And yeah Hartson would have been good. Got to say though I felt we were crying out for a bit of pace when Ferdinand left.
About Osayi-Samuel. I don't see how a year in the reserves can make you better player that than the first team in League Two. Ok he may not be 'ready' but he should be getting subs appearances and the some starts at the very least. |
Hartson wasn't that slow in those days! But yeah, we did lack pace.
No, his development probably would be better at league 2, but if he'd done well this seaosn his price would have gone up! He could be worth a loan. I think he'd have had a chance recently but think he's been injured. | |
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| Squad of missing men on 15:35 - Dec 6 with 1342 views | smegma |
I believe Manning has played more times for his country this season than he has for us. And there's quite a few others in similar positions. | | | |
| Squad of missing men on 16:01 - Dec 6 with 1294 views | robith |
Whilst being settled is good, I worry that we could do with some mild rotation to keep players up to speed. Manning looked totally ring rusty when he came on for Luongo a couple of weeks ago, because he's not played properly in ages |  | | |
| Squad of missing men on 16:02 - Dec 6 with 1291 views | daveB |
| Squad of missing men on 13:52 - Dec 6 by Northernr |
Just to throw a further similar theme to the OP in, reading Sinton's interview about both wingers and buying players to play and improve your team, think it's a real shame that we've added Wheeler and Samuel and they've had so little game time, and almost none at all in their correct positions. |
almost a different sport back then, squads were a lot smaller and clubs like us could wait for someone like Sinton to be ready before we bought him, to buy an equivalent now ready for the first team in the prem would cost millions so we have to gamble more and for want of a better phrase rack and stack players hoping one of them comes good.
I do think Wheeler has been a bit unlucky not to play more but Samuel always looked like he was one for the future rather than this season |  | | |
| Squad of missing men on 16:05 - Dec 6 with 1290 views | daveB |
| Squad of missing men on 16:01 - Dec 6 by robith |
Whilst being settled is good, I worry that we could do with some mild rotation to keep players up to speed. Manning looked totally ring rusty when he came on for Luongo a couple of weeks ago, because he's not played properly in ages |
whilst I agree in principal when Holloway rotated more often last season he was roundly slaughtered for it. The main successes this season have been from the midfield 3 who know they are in the side and are more relaxed that they won't be dropped if they make a mistake so can play with a bit more freedom | | | |
| Squad of missing men on 16:34 - Dec 6 with 1259 views | Northernr |
| Squad of missing men on 16:05 - Dec 6 by daveB |
whilst I agree in principal when Holloway rotated more often last season he was roundly slaughtered for it. The main successes this season have been from the midfield 3 who know they are in the side and are more relaxed that they won't be dropped if they make a mistake so can play with a bit more freedom |
This is true, like that famous line on the podcast a few weeks ago - we should have a settled side, I'd like to see Wheeler and the young lads given a go.
Holloway changes team, Holloway gets stick. Holloway picks same team, Holloway gets stick. | | | |
| Squad of missing men on 17:03 - Dec 6 with 1235 views | Gloucs_R |
| Squad of missing men on 16:34 - Dec 6 by Northernr |
This is true, like that famous line on the podcast a few weeks ago - we should have a settled side, I'd like to see Wheeler and the young lads given a go.
Holloway changes team, Holloway gets stick. Holloway picks same team, Holloway gets stick. |
Keeping the same team / formation when you lose most weeks is just asking for trouble though.
I'd like Sylla to get 5 starts on the bounce....
I'd also like to see us play 4-3-2-1 with the 2 being natural wide players. |  |
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| Squad of missing men on 17:06 - Dec 6 with 1234 views | WestbourneR |
It seems we all agree that 3 CBs is not for us then?
I still think Ollie wouldn't even be looking at three at the back if it wasn't on trend. Conte wins the title with it and then suddenly everyone is doing it again for the first time since 1998. Southgate is just as culpable. | |
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