| Reality v Russell 09:11 - May 28 with 1617 views | saint901 |
First, RM did change the way we played (even though he claimed he didn't) for the Leeds game and it worked. It frustrated Leeds and nullified their best attacking options and for that RM deserves some credit.
Equally I thought KWP played Summerville out of the game and when he was subbed off it was all over for Leeds.
Second, I've said all season that I thought RM would stumble at the last and he didn't and we were indeed the third best team in the Championship this season.
Third, he seems to have gotten carried away in interviews after the game claiming that it was "his" way which got us there and that next season "his " way will be enough to give us a decent PL season. I have my doubts on both statements. |  | | |  |
| Reality v Russell on 09:42 - May 28 with 1571 views | SaintNick |
This is a well reasoned start to what will be a big question in the summer, I disagree we were the third best side in the Division, I would say we were the best, but the manager broke up the momentum by wanting to shoehorn Captain jack into the side, nothing against Jack Stephens, but at the time he did not deserve to be in there on merit and indeed to start with never really justified dropping KWP & Bednarek and moving THV to right back to do so.
However you cannot argue with the performances he has put in during the play offs, he has been a good servant to the club and should be applauded for that and his game at Wembley.
I would also add that if we are starting next season with him first choice then something has gone wrong with our transfer strategy.
Hopefully Russell Martin has learned a few lessons in the last month, perhaps he still feels that possession football is the way forward, but truth is yesterday was a pointer to next season, we are not going to be able to get so much possession of the ball next time, like Sunday, we are going to have to adapt not through choice, but because the opposition and the game dictates it, on a good note our squad showed that it can do that. |  |
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| Reality v Russell on 10:21 - May 28 with 1526 views | saint901 |
According to the statements he made post season/match he claims that possession gives us a chance to be the best we can be.
That's a meaningless statement on its own. You could argue for instance that having the majority of the ball denies the opposition a chance to bring their strengths to bear. Just depends on your point of view.
The reality is that we will not have the ball as much in the PL and therefore the bedrock of the RM way as expressed above, is unlikely to be a valid strategy.
We will therefore need to be more like the team we saw in the play offs which displayed some strength but left some questions.
Ryan Fraser at left wing back? Was that really sensible given that Manning was available?
Equally the flexibility across the back line was good.
For me the most worrying aspect was that without the ball, the team struggled to transition from defence to attack. The midfield seemed to be limited in which areas of the pitch they operated and that stifled our forwards and robbed them of service.
That said, I was pleased that Edozie came on for Brooks rather than asking AA to move wide and bringing on Che which would have unbalanced the team.
Edozie is however a very lightweight defender and is not a PL class forward. I think he may be a casualty this summer.
After all the noise has died, it is obvious that the RM "way" next season has to be closer to what we saw in Sunday because playing for 60/65/70% possession is just not possible against the better sides.
And we were third best - the facts don't lie.
(Very strange to get a huge cup for third?) | | | |
| Reality v Russell on 10:26 - May 28 with 1504 views | TripleNiemi |
Let’s be honest, we had a decent squad for this campaign and some will argue we should have done better with the tools at our disposal, but in the end we gained promotion which was paramount and the Manager achieved that. How anyone can suggest we finished third though when the reality is we didn’t is pretty bonkers but that’s me being a cynic and not really agreeing with the play offs approach (in the same manner that the Champions League should be just that). Am I moaning about us going up via the play offs? absolutely not (lol) and Sunday will hold as one of the best days out in my time watching Saints.
I doff my cap to RM and all involved with getting us up, and whilst I remain one of his critics, he deserves the plaudits for harmonising the dressing room and turning around what must have been a pretty poor environment to come into. Not one for continuously changing managers and whilst I think we could struggle with the approach RM likes to play, he deserves the whole season regardless of whether we struggle or not. We have a few decent players for this level but he will need the backing in the transfer market unlike what Ralph had to endure in his last few months where we needed a player or two for certain positions.
Trust The Process (cringes) [Post edited 28 May 10:34]
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| Ready and waiting to mop up those European places...... |
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| Reality v Russell on 10:35 - May 28 with 1476 views | saintmark1976 |
Russell Martin changed the way we played because of one reason and one reason only, Bazunu picked up an injury that finished his season.
From that moment on he realised that McCarthy was incapable of playing tippy tappy and acting as a sweeper outside of his area.
As I posted at the time Bazunu’s injury was a blessing in disguise because it meant that we at last had a proper experienced keeper. Not the best in the world but light years better than Bazunu will ever be.
I’d go as far to suggest that had Bazunu remained between the sticks we would have not made it to Wembley and would now be looking forward to another Championship season. | | | |
| Reality v Russell on 10:37 - May 28 with 1472 views | SaintNick |
| Reality v Russell on 10:21 - May 28 by saint901 |
According to the statements he made post season/match he claims that possession gives us a chance to be the best we can be.
That's a meaningless statement on its own. You could argue for instance that having the majority of the ball denies the opposition a chance to bring their strengths to bear. Just depends on your point of view.
The reality is that we will not have the ball as much in the PL and therefore the bedrock of the RM way as expressed above, is unlikely to be a valid strategy.
We will therefore need to be more like the team we saw in the play offs which displayed some strength but left some questions.
Ryan Fraser at left wing back? Was that really sensible given that Manning was available?
Equally the flexibility across the back line was good.
For me the most worrying aspect was that without the ball, the team struggled to transition from defence to attack. The midfield seemed to be limited in which areas of the pitch they operated and that stifled our forwards and robbed them of service.
That said, I was pleased that Edozie came on for Brooks rather than asking AA to move wide and bringing on Che which would have unbalanced the team.
Edozie is however a very lightweight defender and is not a PL class forward. I think he may be a casualty this summer.
After all the noise has died, it is obvious that the RM "way" next season has to be closer to what we saw in Sunday because playing for 60/65/70% possession is just not possible against the better sides.
And we were third best - the facts don't lie.
(Very strange to get a huge cup for third?) |
I think we agreed on that one, next season is going to see enforced change as we like Sunday we wont get the ball as much.
League tables can lie in that when we started the season we were not the best side as we were not sure who was staying or going, over the full 46 games Leeds were 3 points better, take out the fist 8 games and it changes drastically.
After we got our poor start out of the way there were 38 games left the points totals were
Leicester 76
Ipswich 75
Leeds 77
Southampton 77
The final table might not lie but it doesnt take into account the full story of the season | |
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| Reality v Russell on 11:59 - May 28 with 1371 views | PatfromPoole |
I have to concede I was wrong.
I didn't think we would get promoted under Russell Martin, as he had no track record of success as a manager.
I feel he was however big enough to make key decisions and to make tweaks to our playing style which got us over the line.
He will need big support in the transfer window from the Club, but I feel that we have enough about us with him in charge to stabilise in the Prem and get back to where we want to be, with top-half Prem finishes in 2-3 years. |  |
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| Reality v Russell on 12:30 - May 28 with 1359 views | Southamptonfan |
Whatever anyone says, and I have doubted the system at times, this season has been a successful season with lots of highs. The players seem to love the manager, he has galvanised the squad and the club. The atmosphere against West Brom and the celebrations at Wembley, who would have thought that, this time last year, after relegation and 3 failed managers? Southampton are back in the Premier League and RM deserves huge credit. | |
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| Reality v Russell on 16:38 - May 28 with 1236 views | Ifonly |
Here's the reality as I see it - if the current Saints, Leicester and Ipswich sides had been competing in the Prem this year instead of Luton, Burnley and Sheff U, it's probable that all 3 Championship sides would have been relegated and we would have come bottom. Even the likes of Forest and Bretford are better than us.
So, we have to do something pretty drastic to stay up next year, but it's unlikely that anything drastic will happen. We're not going to change the manager and we don't have the money to change the squad much in one transfer window. Hopefully we'll strengthen a bit, but so will others. So, it's likely that we'll be relegation candidates from day 1 and if RM keeps us up, that will be a much bigger achievement than getting us promoted. | | | |
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| Reality v Russell on 17:23 - May 28 with 1191 views | PatfromPoole |
| Reality v Russell on 10:37 - May 28 by SaintNick |
I think we agreed on that one, next season is going to see enforced change as we like Sunday we wont get the ball as much.
League tables can lie in that when we started the season we were not the best side as we were not sure who was staying or going, over the full 46 games Leeds were 3 points better, take out the fist 8 games and it changes drastically.
After we got our poor start out of the way there were 38 games left the points totals were
Leicester 76
Ipswich 75
Leeds 77
Southampton 77
The final table might not lie but it doesnt take into account the full story of the season |
There is cherry picking of stats, and then there is cherry picking of stats.
We were not the best side in the League.
Our goal difference was way less than all of the top 3.
It is difficult to argue that we were better than Leicester or Ipswich when we lost all 4 games against them, the Leicester defeats being particularly heavy.
I actually wonder whether a team has ever been promoted before, having lost 5-0 twice in a season (?).
I'm over the moon that we have been promoted, but I can't make a case at all for us having been the best side. | |
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| Reality v Russell on 19:51 - May 28 with 1095 views | sledger |
best things that happened for saints was baz got injured and wilcox left,had to be him keeping him in the team because any sane manager would have dropped him long ago.If we had played macarthy 3 months ago for all his faults we would have finished top two,i dont think theres any argument on this | | | |
| Reality v Russell on 06:49 - May 29 with 966 views | Berber |
Whilst not convinced that the possession based approach was the best way for us, it has proven to be the foundation of our success this season. Players being comfortable on the ball is a vital characteristic that we will need next season though.
Hoofing the ball out of defence is not a great approach, and though we resorted to it at the end of the game on Sunday, most PL teams would relish getting the ball handed over so easily. I am not sure the team have yet learned how to balance the risk of possession at the back.
I was struck at some of the similarities between the game on Sunday, and the one the day before. We saw Man U absorb pressure, close down spaces and prevent City from getting the time to make decisions and pass the ball how they like. Our defence, whilst keeping out Leeds by and large, were not challenged by Leeds so much as they seemed at a loss to find the right player in the final third.
Luckily, one of the few times we attacked quickly, Leeds defence was all over the place. Incidentally, Armstrong’s success this season is largely down to our players spotting his movement quicker. He has done that for the previous two season’s without being found often enough.
I agree that in the playoff games, we didn’t really show the possession based game that RM promotes as his way. But the benefit of the basics from that style helped us a lot.I don’t think you could really say we had a style for the playoffs. It all looked to be a lot more reactive, and for large parts of the game on Sunday, Leeds looked more in control and playing better passing football until the last third.
We face a challenging transfer window. Without Flynn Downes we have been pretty feeble in midfield. Even with him, or a suitable replacement, I don’t think we will be strong enough in midfield. Apart from Fraser, who we have yet to secure, we do not have a proven PL goal scorer for next season, and by PL standards, our attack looks incredibly light weight. Goals against this season sums up our defensive capabilities. Stephens, Manning and Bree shouldn’t really be in any PL squad.Perraud is streets ahead of them, but most on here seem not to rate him, but that just reflects worse on the players we have.
The reality is, despite computer predictions to the contrary, I think, sadly, we will be favourites to go down without a drastic squad overhaul. |  | | |
| Reality v Russell on 07:26 - May 29 with 939 views | PatfromPoole |
| Reality v Russell on 06:49 - May 29 by Berber |
Whilst not convinced that the possession based approach was the best way for us, it has proven to be the foundation of our success this season. Players being comfortable on the ball is a vital characteristic that we will need next season though.
Hoofing the ball out of defence is not a great approach, and though we resorted to it at the end of the game on Sunday, most PL teams would relish getting the ball handed over so easily. I am not sure the team have yet learned how to balance the risk of possession at the back.
I was struck at some of the similarities between the game on Sunday, and the one the day before. We saw Man U absorb pressure, close down spaces and prevent City from getting the time to make decisions and pass the ball how they like. Our defence, whilst keeping out Leeds by and large, were not challenged by Leeds so much as they seemed at a loss to find the right player in the final third.
Luckily, one of the few times we attacked quickly, Leeds defence was all over the place. Incidentally, Armstrong’s success this season is largely down to our players spotting his movement quicker. He has done that for the previous two season’s without being found often enough.
I agree that in the playoff games, we didn’t really show the possession based game that RM promotes as his way. But the benefit of the basics from that style helped us a lot.I don’t think you could really say we had a style for the playoffs. It all looked to be a lot more reactive, and for large parts of the game on Sunday, Leeds looked more in control and playing better passing football until the last third.
We face a challenging transfer window. Without Flynn Downes we have been pretty feeble in midfield. Even with him, or a suitable replacement, I don’t think we will be strong enough in midfield. Apart from Fraser, who we have yet to secure, we do not have a proven PL goal scorer for next season, and by PL standards, our attack looks incredibly light weight. Goals against this season sums up our defensive capabilities. Stephens, Manning and Bree shouldn’t really be in any PL squad.Perraud is streets ahead of them, but most on here seem not to rate him, but that just reflects worse on the players we have.
The reality is, despite computer predictions to the contrary, I think, sadly, we will be favourites to go down without a drastic squad overhaul. |
I don’t mind being favourites to go down.
Might rekindle some of the old Dell spirit from the 90’s when the crowd and team were wholly united in battling against adversity. | |
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| Reality v Russell on 08:50 - May 29 with 901 views | SaintNick |
| Reality v Russell on 17:23 - May 28 by PatfromPoole |
There is cherry picking of stats, and then there is cherry picking of stats.
We were not the best side in the League.
Our goal difference was way less than all of the top 3.
It is difficult to argue that we were better than Leicester or Ipswich when we lost all 4 games against them, the Leicester defeats being particularly heavy.
I actually wonder whether a team has ever been promoted before, having lost 5-0 twice in a season (?).
I'm over the moon that we have been promoted, but I can't make a case at all for us having been the best side. |
Any debate will cherry pick stats, but the one fact is that at the start of the season we had over 10 players who we did not know whether they would stay or go, in the end 6 genuine first team squad members left in August permanently and several more also went out on loan.
That meant that we couldnt do a lot of business till the end of the transfer window, hence our bad spell in September.
As I said after the end of September we got more points than Leicester & Ipswich and the same as Leeds, so it could be said that for the final 3/4 of the season once we had done our business we were the best side in terms of points won.
No one can excuse the loss at Leicester, but with all the changes at the start of the season cost us dearly in September and losing at Sunderland and then losing at home to Ipswich & Leicester was the difference come the end of the season.
Truthfully Russell Martin made a great job of reconstructing the side at the start of the season, hence the 22 game unbeaten run, however he also made mistakes as has often been discussed, not least the team he selected at Ipswich and that KWP stayed on the bench in that game, April cost us dearly
Who cares whether another side who got promoted has let in 5 goals or not, the League table doesn't lie as they say, but it does, Leeds were the 3rd best side but they didn't get promoted as come the end of the season we were the better side, the League table won't tell anyone that though. | |
| Satisfying The Bloodlust Of The Masses In Peacetime |
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| Reality v Russell on 08:56 - May 29 with 895 views | PatfromPoole |
| Reality v Russell on 08:50 - May 29 by SaintNick |
Any debate will cherry pick stats, but the one fact is that at the start of the season we had over 10 players who we did not know whether they would stay or go, in the end 6 genuine first team squad members left in August permanently and several more also went out on loan.
That meant that we couldnt do a lot of business till the end of the transfer window, hence our bad spell in September.
As I said after the end of September we got more points than Leicester & Ipswich and the same as Leeds, so it could be said that for the final 3/4 of the season once we had done our business we were the best side in terms of points won.
No one can excuse the loss at Leicester, but with all the changes at the start of the season cost us dearly in September and losing at Sunderland and then losing at home to Ipswich & Leicester was the difference come the end of the season.
Truthfully Russell Martin made a great job of reconstructing the side at the start of the season, hence the 22 game unbeaten run, however he also made mistakes as has often been discussed, not least the team he selected at Ipswich and that KWP stayed on the bench in that game, April cost us dearly
Who cares whether another side who got promoted has let in 5 goals or not, the League table doesn't lie as they say, but it does, Leeds were the 3rd best side but they didn't get promoted as come the end of the season we were the better side, the League table won't tell anyone that though. |
The League table doesn’t lie, as they say; but it does.
I can’t argue with logic like that.
Nick, you have beaten me. Fair play. | |
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| Reality v Russell on 09:03 - May 29 with 886 views | SaintNick |
| Reality v Russell on 08:56 - May 29 by PatfromPoole |
The League table doesn’t lie, as they say; but it does.
I can’t argue with logic like that.
Nick, you have beaten me. Fair play. |
If the League table doesn't lie, then Leeds would be in the Premier League, | |
| Satisfying The Bloodlust Of The Masses In Peacetime |
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| Reality v Russell on 15:37 - May 29 with 791 views | saint901 |
Last season is done and frankly nobody cares about its statistics, cherry picked or dug raw from the mud.
The fact is that we struggled against the top two home and away and in the PL, they will be among the weaker teams.
We therefore need to prepare and with a transfer budget limited by the present finances and P&S rules; a forward line that looks a little lightweight; a midfield that is missing a true defensive element and a defence that suffers from constant fiddling, we need a plan - fast.
Possession based tactics, even if a platform to other plans, is not going to be the cake walk it was against 20+ teams in the Championship. Can't see PL teams allowing that to happen. Quite the opposite.
We need to become a team which can hold the ball when required (not 25 yards from our goal please) but can also shift it forward quickly if we see possession tactics adopted against us.
It's a big shift and I really hope RM does not start believing his own publicity and think that his "way" can continue in the PL without changes. | | | |
| Reality v Russell on 15:58 - May 29 with 786 views | darthvader |
| Reality v Russell on 10:21 - May 28 by saint901 |
According to the statements he made post season/match he claims that possession gives us a chance to be the best we can be.
That's a meaningless statement on its own. You could argue for instance that having the majority of the ball denies the opposition a chance to bring their strengths to bear. Just depends on your point of view.
The reality is that we will not have the ball as much in the PL and therefore the bedrock of the RM way as expressed above, is unlikely to be a valid strategy.
We will therefore need to be more like the team we saw in the play offs which displayed some strength but left some questions.
Ryan Fraser at left wing back? Was that really sensible given that Manning was available?
Equally the flexibility across the back line was good.
For me the most worrying aspect was that without the ball, the team struggled to transition from defence to attack. The midfield seemed to be limited in which areas of the pitch they operated and that stifled our forwards and robbed them of service.
That said, I was pleased that Edozie came on for Brooks rather than asking AA to move wide and bringing on Che which would have unbalanced the team.
Edozie is however a very lightweight defender and is not a PL class forward. I think he may be a casualty this summer.
After all the noise has died, it is obvious that the RM "way" next season has to be closer to what we saw in Sunday because playing for 60/65/70% possession is just not possible against the better sides.
And we were third best - the facts don't lie.
(Very strange to get a huge cup for third?) |
We weren't 3rd ...its a play off final trophy..
When you look at the replay of our goal sunday and go backwards to where it started ,14 or 15 passes from our goal kick and correct me if im wrong but JB.took the goal kick from memory, i remember saying why the fook is he taking the kick ? Seconds later the perfect through ball from Smallbone and AAis in on goal boom 1-nil . !
so Russ would argue that his way works . . And when it does its brilliant! [Post edited 29 May 16:11]
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| Reality v Russell on 16:41 - May 29 with 750 views | Ifonly |
| Reality v Russell on 15:58 - May 29 by darthvader |
We weren't 3rd ...its a play off final trophy..
When you look at the replay of our goal sunday and go backwards to where it started ,14 or 15 passes from our goal kick and correct me if im wrong but JB.took the goal kick from memory, i remember saying why the fook is he taking the kick ? Seconds later the perfect through ball from Smallbone and AAis in on goal boom 1-nil . !
so Russ would argue that his way works . . And when it does its brilliant! [Post edited 29 May 16:11]
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So, you look at the replay of the goal and see an RM masterplan. When I look at the replay I see that the main reason for that goal was the total mess in the Leeds defence. Saints did well for the goal and it was a great finish by AA, but if Leeds had got the basics right, either AA would have been well offside or he wouldn't have had that space to run in to. Look again and pause the video when WS is about to play the through ball to AA and look at the Leeds defence. That's not schoolboy defending, it's worse than that. It's criminal.
Even if it had been a great goal, you can't say because we score one goal that RM's way works. It worked (mostly) in the Championship but I can't see it working in the Prem against better quality teams. | | | |
| Reality v Russell on 21:08 - May 29 with 651 views | saint22 |
| Reality v Russell on 10:35 - May 28 by saintmark1976 |
Russell Martin changed the way we played because of one reason and one reason only, Bazunu picked up an injury that finished his season.
From that moment on he realised that McCarthy was incapable of playing tippy tappy and acting as a sweeper outside of his area.
As I posted at the time Bazunu’s injury was a blessing in disguise because it meant that we at last had a proper experienced keeper. Not the best in the world but light years better than Bazunu will ever be.
I’d go as far to suggest that had Bazunu remained between the sticks we would have not made it to Wembley and would now be looking forward to another Championship season. |
I fully agree with this
The keeper situation is the great issue RM has to sort
We need a proper goalie the likes we haven’t had since maybe Niemi | | | |
| Reality v Russell on 21:11 - May 29 with 648 views | grumpy |
Forster was a good keeper,to me he never was the same after his Knee injury. |  | | |
| Reality v Russell on 03:04 - May 30 with 551 views | Scoot |
Just enjoy it it. You're not a pundit, don't try to be. | |
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| Reality v Russell on 05:07 - May 30 with 540 views | areasix |
Looks as if liverpools reserve keeper Kelleher is about to come on the market , with him Lis finishing his loan deal and Baz at least we have three keepers to compete with each other.
Ramsdale is the other option if we could afford him! | | | |
| Reality v Russell on 09:14 - May 30 with 483 views | saint901 |
| Reality v Russell on 16:41 - May 29 by Ifonly |
So, you look at the replay of the goal and see an RM masterplan. When I look at the replay I see that the main reason for that goal was the total mess in the Leeds defence. Saints did well for the goal and it was a great finish by AA, but if Leeds had got the basics right, either AA would have been well offside or he wouldn't have had that space to run in to. Look again and pause the video when WS is about to play the through ball to AA and look at the Leeds defence. That's not schoolboy defending, it's worse than that. It's criminal.
Even if it had been a great goal, you can't say because we score one goal that RM's way works. It worked (mostly) in the Championship but I can't see it working in the Prem against better quality teams. |
I have to agree with Mr ifonly here.
The ball played into Smallbone was decent enough but the Leeds defender made an error in trying to shut him down quickly and he was forced into shifting the ball on quickly.
You can argue that he saw AA and the opportunity and it was a touch of genius. You can argue that it was instinctive, that AA called for the ball, that the inspiration for the goal was AA spotting the opportunity and Smallbone was just a conduit. Frankly I don't care.
What it was not however was a demonstration of how possession based football creates a platform to score from. | | | |
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