| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left 09:16 - Feb 4 with 10057 views | RangersDave |
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-51366123
Ok, so i havnt really got many objections to this, apart from....
1) no range. if i cannot drive from scouse town to strasburg on 1 charge of electricery rather than on a tank of gas stopping only for a loo break and the tunnel then i'm out.
2) charging points.... not enough, and should all have a single compatible plug
3) costs of buying them, and the battery if replacements are needed
4) charging speed. i dont want to have to sit there for anything more than 15 minutes when i have a long journey to complete waiting for the car to charge.
Plus i want to be able to use the radio, air conditioning, lights etc and not have to keep looking at the battery level while doing a trip to London, for instance.
They need to cancel HS2, and put 'upgradable' charging point infrastructure in place now. |  |
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| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 14:11 - Feb 4 with 1801 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 13:37 - Feb 4 by enfieldargh |
I doubt an electric car will be anything like we have now by then.
Electrical charging points could be like a plate you drive over which boosts you power level/
They will know how to charge you from your vehicle ID or the microchip that's been embedded into you at birth or from your mobile device which can also wipe your botty
Alternatively how about a giant scaletrix track |
"Alternatively how about a giant scaletrix track"
There's be cars going full-throttle into bends and careering off into the kitchen or under dad's slippers.
We'd all be dead within a week. |  |
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| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 14:13 - Feb 4 with 1796 views | R_from_afar |
| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 12:23 - Feb 4 by Benny_the_Ball |
There's 2 topics being discussed here in 1 thread - cars and the environment, so I will address each separately in reverse order.
With respect to the environment, there is a clear issue with climate change that needs to be addressed asap. I don't think any sane individual is denying that. However, combustion engine cars are only part of the problem. One of the first studies I read on the subject was commissioned by Greenpeace. It placed industry and housing above motor cars as the major polluters. It called on the UK government to reduce industry pollution and to introduce a nationwide programme of loft insulation to reduce the amount of heat being lost into the atmosphere through rooftops. Roll forward a few years yet the emphasis remains squarely on motor cars. Addressing climate change requires a global effort and an appetite to combat all forms of pollution.
The evidence still shows that a significant amount of electricity is being generated by burning fossil fuels. Until we eliminate this, I remain sceptical of the EV's green credentials. Worldwide adoption of EVs will push electricity usage through the roof so cleaner generation and better infrastructure will be key.
As for EV's themselves, they are improving but there are some clear drawbacks that need to be resolved to encourage wider adoption.
1) Range is increasing with the latest generation of EVs capable of 100-200 real world miles on a full charge, depending on whether you're driving in summer or winter. However, manufacturers are guilty of publishing misleading figures on range in the same way they publish unrealistic mpg figures. Governments really ought to stop this practice and set the parameters by which all manufacturers test.
2) EV batteries lose capacity over time and are expensive to replace. This makes them an unviable proposition as a second hand purchase. To mitigate the risk you either have to purchase an additional warranty or sign up to a battery leasing scheme. IMHO manufacturers should be forced to offer a minimum of a 7 year warranty on EVs.
3) Not only is the infrastructure insufficient but it's too complicated. Already there are 5 or 6 main providers, each offering different levels of charging at wildly different prices. The average user has to install a number of apps on his/her phone to take advantage of the full grid. When you've figured that out, it takes far too long to re-charge. Compare that to the ease with which you can find a petrol station and fill a fuel tank and the frustration is clear.
4) When we talk of infrastructure most people think of the outside charging network. What about homes? Not all of us live in houses with garages or driveways. To make a palpable difference to the environment, adoption in cities is key but I can't see how someone living in a 3rd floor flat is going to charge their car overnight. Moreover, charging via a 3-pin plug takes days, not hours. Faster charging at home requires the installation of a charging unit which is not only costly but can't be ported to a new home.
5) The price of new EVs is exorbitant, even with a government grant. Granted the price of new technology tends to come down as adoption increases but you can't compare paying £1000 for the one the first LCD TV screens to £30k+ for a Nissan Leaf.
6) Once adoption increases, expect the government to terminate the grant scheme and re-focus its attention on how to recover revenue from the loss of fuel duty.
It should be said that the above assumes that the public will continue to consume vehicles by private ownership. More creative solutions such as pool cars, car sharing, etc. may be required to make a success of EVs, particularly as driverless technology gathers pace. |
I have had an electric vehicle for four and a half years and done 32k miles in it. I am also an eco warrier, as some of you may just have noticed 
So here goes, with some comments about the post below and other stuff. Your point about the need for us to “green” many more things than transport is spot on, as is your point about insulation. Insulation is not glamorous for a politician but a major programme for homes and commercial buildings would make a huge difference.
Point 1 below: WhatCar's real world tests are now showing that you can actually get 200 miles from the latest EVs, and that includes mass market models.
Point 2: Tesla's long range tests disprove this. They do not lose much of their capacity. Most EVs come with a 10 year battery warranty, which is just as well because EV batteries cannot be replaced (based on currently available models). EV batteries can be reused after the cars have been scrapped, for standalone electricity storage.
Point 3: True, there are currently quite a few charging network operators. A colleague has an EV and went on holiday all over northern Europe in it. He took a small handful of charging network cards and had no issues. Also, fuel station companies e.g. BP are starting to put charging points on forecourts. I downloaded the PodPoint app in about two minutes and it is a piece of cake to use. Find a charging point - the app tells you where it is and if it's occupied and whether you have to pay - plug in, confirm that you are plugged in via the app and you are done, the juice starts to flow Simples.
Point 4: Yes, living in flats etc is an issue but it is possible to get councils to install on street units where there is demand. Charging from a 3 pin plug is quite slow but unless you have the 1000km range Tesla Roadster, it won't take more than a day (but it might take 10 hours or so). Many car manufacturers will install a charging unit for free. The government used to subsidise home installations too but I am not sure if they still do. You can't easily take your home charging point with you if you move, you are correct.
Point 5: Still true in most cases but there is a lot of competition in the sub £30k mass market and the newly announced VW e-UP comes in at under £20k, after the government grant. The Zoe looks like a great deal - cheap as EVs go, 200 mile+ range...
Point 6: Spot on. But.... all governments are likely to look to make the user of greener vehicles cheaper than liquid fuelled ones.
Other stuff:
- Don't assume that petrol and diesel will continue to be freely available and affordable. The new sources of oil (like fracking and tar sands) only make up 7% of the world's supply, meaning that we are still reliant on traditional fields, plus there will not be any more big finds. Oil is finite, people!
- There are some interesting pledges from Boris on EVs and charging infrastructure, here: https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/electric/electric-charging-stations-uk-find-neares
- Grid electricity generally has a lower CO2 impact than any petrol or diesel car. Exceptions would be in areas/countries where grid electricity is predominantly from coal.
- The world can meet all its electricity needs from renewables. The sums have been done, for example, by Stanford University. Costa Rica managed to go a month without using anything other than renewables to power its grid. It can be done.
- As for dubious materials, we need to be even handed about that and not slam EVs for that but turn a blind eye if they are used in a mobile 'phone, vacuum cleaner or whatever. In addition, oil is increasingly coming from dubious sources. There are moves to get it from the arctic, tar sands have a devastating environmental impact, there was the Gulf of Mexico spill and umpteen others at sea...
- As far as providing back-up for renewables is concerned, there are solutions available now to cope with that. Tidal lagoons — were we ever to build one — can supply electricity 24/7. Solar electricity can be stored in giant batteries, in molten salt or used to pump water uphill so it can be used to drive turbines when the panels aren’t working, or it can be used to produce hydrogen, which can then be used to drive turbines. Wind patterns can be predicted 48 hours (I think it’s 48) in advance now so capacity planning is not so hard. In addition, nuclear plants need to go offline on average two days a week for refuelling and maintenance (or when they get blocked up with seaweed or jellyfish or when the water used to cool them is too warm (as happened last year)). That also creates a back-up headache. Windfarms may need wind to work but you never get situations where the whole farm breaks down; with a gas power plant — any big oil/gas/coal/nuclear plant in fact - one breakdown stops all the power. Providing back-up for distributed power sources like wind farms is much easier.
- Currently, there are still going to be a lot of people who can't get by with just an EV. I totally agree on that one, but the tide is turning. |  |
| "Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1." |
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| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 14:26 - Feb 4 with 1761 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 14:13 - Feb 4 by R_from_afar |
I have had an electric vehicle for four and a half years and done 32k miles in it. I am also an eco warrier, as some of you may just have noticed
So here goes, with some comments about the post below and other stuff. Your point about the need for us to “green” many more things than transport is spot on, as is your point about insulation. Insulation is not glamorous for a politician but a major programme for homes and commercial buildings would make a huge difference.
Point 1 below: WhatCar's real world tests are now showing that you can actually get 200 miles from the latest EVs, and that includes mass market models.
Point 2: Tesla's long range tests disprove this. They do not lose much of their capacity. Most EVs come with a 10 year battery warranty, which is just as well because EV batteries cannot be replaced (based on currently available models). EV batteries can be reused after the cars have been scrapped, for standalone electricity storage.
Point 3: True, there are currently quite a few charging network operators. A colleague has an EV and went on holiday all over northern Europe in it. He took a small handful of charging network cards and had no issues. Also, fuel station companies e.g. BP are starting to put charging points on forecourts. I downloaded the PodPoint app in about two minutes and it is a piece of cake to use. Find a charging point - the app tells you where it is and if it's occupied and whether you have to pay - plug in, confirm that you are plugged in via the app and you are done, the juice starts to flow Simples.
Point 4: Yes, living in flats etc is an issue but it is possible to get councils to install on street units where there is demand. Charging from a 3 pin plug is quite slow but unless you have the 1000km range Tesla Roadster, it won't take more than a day (but it might take 10 hours or so). Many car manufacturers will install a charging unit for free. The government used to subsidise home installations too but I am not sure if they still do. You can't easily take your home charging point with you if you move, you are correct.
Point 5: Still true in most cases but there is a lot of competition in the sub £30k mass market and the newly announced VW e-UP comes in at under £20k, after the government grant. The Zoe looks like a great deal - cheap as EVs go, 200 mile+ range...
Point 6: Spot on. But.... all governments are likely to look to make the user of greener vehicles cheaper than liquid fuelled ones.
Other stuff:
- Don't assume that petrol and diesel will continue to be freely available and affordable. The new sources of oil (like fracking and tar sands) only make up 7% of the world's supply, meaning that we are still reliant on traditional fields, plus there will not be any more big finds. Oil is finite, people!
- There are some interesting pledges from Boris on EVs and charging infrastructure, here: https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/electric/electric-charging-stations-uk-find-neares
- Grid electricity generally has a lower CO2 impact than any petrol or diesel car. Exceptions would be in areas/countries where grid electricity is predominantly from coal.
- The world can meet all its electricity needs from renewables. The sums have been done, for example, by Stanford University. Costa Rica managed to go a month without using anything other than renewables to power its grid. It can be done.
- As for dubious materials, we need to be even handed about that and not slam EVs for that but turn a blind eye if they are used in a mobile 'phone, vacuum cleaner or whatever. In addition, oil is increasingly coming from dubious sources. There are moves to get it from the arctic, tar sands have a devastating environmental impact, there was the Gulf of Mexico spill and umpteen others at sea...
- As far as providing back-up for renewables is concerned, there are solutions available now to cope with that. Tidal lagoons — were we ever to build one — can supply electricity 24/7. Solar electricity can be stored in giant batteries, in molten salt or used to pump water uphill so it can be used to drive turbines when the panels aren’t working, or it can be used to produce hydrogen, which can then be used to drive turbines. Wind patterns can be predicted 48 hours (I think it’s 48) in advance now so capacity planning is not so hard. In addition, nuclear plants need to go offline on average two days a week for refuelling and maintenance (or when they get blocked up with seaweed or jellyfish or when the water used to cool them is too warm (as happened last year)). That also creates a back-up headache. Windfarms may need wind to work but you never get situations where the whole farm breaks down; with a gas power plant — any big oil/gas/coal/nuclear plant in fact - one breakdown stops all the power. Providing back-up for distributed power sources like wind farms is much easier.
- Currently, there are still going to be a lot of people who can't get by with just an EV. I totally agree on that one, but the tide is turning. |
In summary, all it needs is political will right? |  | | |
| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 14:28 - Feb 4 with 1758 views | Newhopphoops |
I've finally escaped from lurkerland with a new ID...
The short-term issues are real, including that while pure electric is reliable and simple, hybrids have both systems that can break down, as well as the electronics that distributes the work between them; this makes the "slightly hybrid" option less attractive if like me you're in a flat with no parking space.
But the teething problems will be solved, with more agreements on charger types; better apps; and two-way charging (so cars and trucks will be the main storage capacity needed in a wind & sun-driven grid; owners will be able to recharge their cars at cheap rates and feed back to the grid at a profit); and progressive battery improvements.
It will all happen pretty quick IMHO. Nonetheless ride sharing will make a greater difference as electric cars still have about half the lifetime emissions of petrol cars.
PS Being in the Alps, many of my neighbours were cretins, till they added the iodine to the water.
PPS This real-time power generation tracker gives cause for encouragement. http://grid.iamkate.com/ |  | | |
| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 14:28 - Feb 4 with 1756 views | BuckR |
Nothing like the sound of a V8 though! |  | | |
| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 14:37 - Feb 4 with 1736 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 14:28 - Feb 4 by Newhopphoops |
I've finally escaped from lurkerland with a new ID...
The short-term issues are real, including that while pure electric is reliable and simple, hybrids have both systems that can break down, as well as the electronics that distributes the work between them; this makes the "slightly hybrid" option less attractive if like me you're in a flat with no parking space.
But the teething problems will be solved, with more agreements on charger types; better apps; and two-way charging (so cars and trucks will be the main storage capacity needed in a wind & sun-driven grid; owners will be able to recharge their cars at cheap rates and feed back to the grid at a profit); and progressive battery improvements.
It will all happen pretty quick IMHO. Nonetheless ride sharing will make a greater difference as electric cars still have about half the lifetime emissions of petrol cars.
PS Being in the Alps, many of my neighbours were cretins, till they added the iodine to the water.
PPS This real-time power generation tracker gives cause for encouragement. http://grid.iamkate.com/ |
Welcome!
Favorite sustainable cheese? | | | |
| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 14:52 - Feb 4 with 1696 views | Newhopphoops |
| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 14:37 - Feb 4 by BazzaInTheLoft |
Welcome!
Favorite sustainable cheese? |
Thanks Baz! Cailladou for me.
Herby and garlicky; hard to find outside Savoie; sold, incidentally, by the hottest vendeuse de fromage in France. | | | |
| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 14:57 - Feb 4 with 1682 views | Mick_S |
| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 14:52 - Feb 4 by Newhopphoops |
Thanks Baz! Cailladou for me.
Herby and garlicky; hard to find outside Savoie; sold, incidentally, by the hottest vendeuse de fromage in France. |
That's cheese one upmanship, that is. |  |
| Did I ever mention that I was in Minder? |
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| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 14:59 - Feb 4 with 1676 views | derbyhoop |
My Mrs bought a Renault ZOE, which is electric. She rarely goes on a round trip of more than 50km; there's a charging station in the next village and we can charge it at home.
For longer journies the hybrids are quite efficient. They are likely to get better, although Govt wants to phase them out as well.
I think the car industry has a got an awful lot to do in the next 10 years, so expect to see production concentrated in fewer sites |  |
| "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one's lifetime." (Mark Twain)
Find me on twitter @derbyhoop and now on Bluesky |
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| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 15:02 - Feb 4 with 1671 views | Newhopphoops |
| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 14:57 - Feb 4 by Mick_S |
That's cheese one upmanship, that is. |
I put on nearly two stone in my first year there... | | | |
| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 15:18 - Feb 4 with 1635 views | CroydonCaptJack |
| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 14:57 - Feb 4 by Mick_S |
That's cheese one upmanship, that is. |
Was thinking exactly the same mate.
Puts my Red Leicester to shame. |  | | |
| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 15:18 - Feb 4 with 1634 views | collegeranger |
We will probably all be driving Hydrogen powered battery cars in the long term. A friend in the US is one of the most renown consultants and is working with a number of car manufacturers on Hydrogen motors a that power a mini turbine that will produce electric to fill the batteries with the only bi-product being H2O !
Honda already sell them in California however there are only a few filling stations but expect to see the oil companies get behind this in the next few years as they need to replace their filling stations and it takes the same amount of time to fill 70 litres of hydrogen as it does petrol or diesel. I think the Government wont be as aggressive with rolling out electric charging points as these in time will be redundant!
In the meantime I only worry that I wont be able to fill up my 25 year old TVR in 2035! |  | | |
| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 15:32 - Feb 4 with 1610 views | Newhopphoops |
| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 15:18 - Feb 4 by CroydonCaptJack |
Was thinking exactly the same mate.
Puts my Red Leicester to shame. |
Can't beat Red Leicester, think Clint Hill vs Julio Cesar. | | | |
| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 15:34 - Feb 4 with 1605 views | Newhopphoops |
Not that it's relevant to renewable energy or cheese, a friend has just moved to California to program the robots on an assembly line for 3d printed cars. The world's left me behind I think. | | | |
| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 15:54 - Feb 4 with 1579 views | hubble |
I'm going to miss petrol. Been a biker since I was old enough to get a moped - a 2 stoke like most were back then - squirt of oil in the tank.... that wonderful fume from tank and exhaust.... still riding today... yes, I'm an antediluvian Flintstone and petrol is a crazy, polluting beautiful bitch. |  |
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| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 16:14 - Feb 4 with 1550 views | Toast_R |
What about HGV vehicles? They are the biggest polluters and cause the most damage to the roads. There ain't a battery engine powerful enough yet to drive one is there?
Sort that shit out
Also, will the rich Arab states be truely fcked by all this? [Post edited 4 Feb 2020 16:17]
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| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 16:33 - Feb 4 with 1533 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 16:14 - Feb 4 by Toast_R |
What about HGV vehicles? They are the biggest polluters and cause the most damage to the roads. There ain't a battery engine powerful enough yet to drive one is there?
Sort that shit out
Also, will the rich Arab states be truely fcked by all this? [Post edited 4 Feb 2020 16:17]
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Rail freight is the answer to that one. | | | |
| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 16:37 - Feb 4 with 1524 views | Toast_R |
| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 16:33 - Feb 4 by BazzaInTheLoft |
Rail freight is the answer to that one. |
Is it?
Refuse lorries usually go street to street as do most delivery vehicles. I had a a tonne of shingle delivered last summer, be buggered if I had to pick that up from Platform 12 at Clapham Junction, where would you park? [Post edited 4 Feb 2020 16:41]
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| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 16:38 - Feb 4 with 1523 views | Newhopphoops |
| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 16:33 - Feb 4 by BazzaInTheLoft |
Rail freight is the answer to that one. |
And also driverless electric trucks which deliver at night and feed power back to the grid when useful.
Driverless tech is a long way from managing crowded city streets by day, but main roads at night can be done now.
The only reason trucks currently operate by day is the driver. | | | |
| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 16:42 - Feb 4 with 1517 views | OldPedro |
For anyone who wants to find out more about electric cars etc, there is a Youtube channel called Fully Charged which is fronted by Robert Llewellyn (Kryten from Red Dwarf) which has some interesting stuff on it.
There are also some new episodes fronted my Maddie Moate which are following her through her electric car buying journey which cover a lot of the basics.
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| Extra mature cheddar......a simple cheese for a simple man |
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| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 16:43 - Feb 4 with 1514 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 16:37 - Feb 4 by Toast_R |
Is it?
Refuse lorries usually go street to street as do most delivery vehicles. I had a a tonne of shingle delivered last summer, be buggered if I had to pick that up from Platform 12 at Clapham Junction, where would you park? [Post edited 4 Feb 2020 16:41]
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What % of HGVs do refuse lorries make?
Increased Rail freight capacity would cut out 90% of journeys made by lorries. | | | |
| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 18:57 - Feb 4 with 1442 views | itsbiga |
I have a full leccy car here in Los Angeles as its really vital a big city like this to reduce emissions.
The human cost of cobalt mining required for the batteries is horrible tho.
https://www.ft.com/content/c6909812-9ce4-11e9-9c06-a4640c9feebb [Post edited 4 Feb 2020 18:59]
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| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 20:20 - Feb 4 with 1391 views | enfieldargh |
| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 14:11 - Feb 4 by BrianMcCarthy |
"Alternatively how about a giant scaletrix track"
There's be cars going full-throttle into bends and careering off into the kitchen or under dad's slippers.
We'd all be dead within a week. |
our cat used to chase the cars round and pounce, it was carnage.
We had a strange central heating system which was low level rads along one wall.
The cat used to chase and knock the subbuteo balls under, it was a nightmare to get them out. |  |
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| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 20:25 - Feb 4 with 1387 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 20:20 - Feb 4 by enfieldargh |
our cat used to chase the cars round and pounce, it was carnage.
We had a strange central heating system which was low level rads along one wall.
The cat used to chase and knock the subbuteo balls under, it was a nightmare to get them out. |
My dog used to chew the Subbuteo balls.
At first it was great ("Thomas down the wing crosses for Bowles...but, no!!! here comes The Monster From The Deep! He's going to devour EV-RY-THINGGGGGG!").
Then it just got boring. | |
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