| Linford Christie Stadium. 18:04 - Aug 9 with 137144 views | ted_hendrix |
That's where our new ground will be. |  |
| My Father had a profound influence on me, he was a lunatic. |
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| Linford Christie Stadium. on 13:14 - Oct 29 with 2667 views | daveB |
| Linford Christie Stadium. on 13:10 - Oct 29 by QPR_Jim |
They've not said that though have they. They've just said they won't give it to us for free which would be OK if it wasn't so clearly a drain on their finances and something they have no clue what to do with. That's why they come across as childish.
How about a swap of land then, we sell them LR and they sell us LCS, they can build on it what they like then. You'll be surprised how quickly the local amenity the council deem as required will turn from a playing fields/ a school or a hospital into housing once they own it.
Ultimately if they want to make these decisions they should do it through their local plan and planning policy not hold people to ransom based on what they feel they can get out of them, which appears to be what they are doing here. (Hence millionaire owners references) |
this is quite an interesting timeline of events.
The procurement process announced last October still hasn't started
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| Linford Christie Stadium. on 13:15 - Oct 29 with 2663 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Linford Christie Stadium. on 13:10 - Oct 29 by QPR_Jim |
They've not said that though have they. They've just said they won't give it to us for free which would be OK if it wasn't so clearly a drain on their finances and something they have no clue what to do with. That's why they come across as childish.
How about a swap of land then, we sell them LR and they sell us LCS, they can build on it what they like then. You'll be surprised how quickly the local amenity the council deem as required will turn from a playing fields/ a school or a hospital into housing once they own it.
Ultimately if they want to make these decisions they should do it through their local plan and planning policy not hold people to ransom based on what they feel they can get out of them, which appears to be what they are doing here. (Hence millionaire owners references) |
It is exactly what they said. Schools and hospitals are also a drain on the public purse. Should we hand them over too when they become dilapidated?
Plenty of precedent on how to conduct the planning of a new stadium. You don't strong arm the council for starters because they will have the NIMBYs onside for starters and then the whole project is lost
Hope it all works out, but my sympathies just don't lie with billionaire property developers and airline magnates. |  | | |
| Linford Christie Stadium. on 13:16 - Oct 29 with 2648 views | NewBee |
| Linford Christie Stadium. on 12:44 - Oct 29 by Northernr |
And the repeated reference to "foreign" owners? |
Speaking as an outside observer, surely the "foreign owners" reference is explained as follows.
QPR appear to be asking LBH&F to gift them the land at LCS (on the basis that they risk losing QPR to the Borough if they don't?).
Now let us suppose that the land is worth, say, £30m(?) for development purposes. Then QPR build a stadium on it for £100m(?).
It would then be open to the owners to accept any offer over £100m from a new buyer and they'd still make a profit (though the whole venture would likely fetch more than £130m).
Meaning the whole of the £30m value of the site would effectively have been lost to LBH&F and remember, it doesn't belong to the Council, it belongs to the people who live within the Borough.
Now let us consider if QPR were owned eg by your supporters, or some other local Community Trust. In those circumstances, the £30m value of the land at LCS could be argued to be staying within the Borough, albeit indirectly.
Moreover, such owners would be far less likely to want to expoit the club for their own personal gain (asset-stripping, redevelopment, sale to some Saudi mass murderer etc).
To take a comparison (I know, I know), but LB Hounslow were generally pretty helpful to BFC, not least because they knew that local man Matthew Benham had the best long-term interests of the club at heart. Also they didn't have to contribute to the cost of the project, while it brought in 1,000 new homes to a brownfield industrial site/Griffin Park.
Of course, QPR fans might argue that your owners are similarly well-disposed towards the club and the area.
But LBH&F aren't in the business of relying on such sentiment, esp when there are so many other foreign vultures hovering around English football clubs.
Besides, things can always change.
P.S. Of course there remains another option open to QPR, which is to make the Council a fair offer for the land they need. Considering the state of local government finances, I doubt that LBH&F would turn the money down just because it was in foreign currency. |  | | |
| Linford Christie Stadium. on 13:17 - Oct 29 with 2651 views | dmm |
It's a good response by Hoos and would appear to trash some of the criticisms made in the council's latest statement.
However, the two sides really do need to meet now to talk openly and honestly. A public conversation of insinuation and veiled meaning won't get anyone anywhere. [Post edited 29 Oct 2021 13:19]
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| Linford Christie Stadium. on 13:18 - Oct 29 with 2643 views | terryb |
| Linford Christie Stadium. on 12:56 - Oct 29 by ParkRoyalR |
The benefit to the local community is keeping the local club in the community, as it has been for maybe 100 years.
If H&F want a further 'bung' so they can keep local voters onside and keep their cushy 9-4 numbers that's another conversation.
Cannot see how investing in a dilapidated + under-used Linford Christie Stadium is property speculation, but if you're of the mindset to use cheap-shot foreign owner jibes, you really should'nt be in any sort of position that requires a mature + balanced mindset.
Anyway, not interested in politics, just whats best for QPR, and to me that's a refurbished 23k-25k stadium at Loftus Road. |
"Cannot see how investing in a dilapidated + under-used Linford Christie Stadium is property speculation"
I think this was a reference to building houses/flats on the current stadium, rather than at the Linford Christie Stadium.
Anyhow, it would now appear to be back in the hands of Stephen Cowan. [Post edited 29 Oct 2021 13:22]
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| Linford Christie Stadium. on 13:18 - Oct 29 with 2645 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Linford Christie Stadium. on 13:16 - Oct 29 by NewBee |
Speaking as an outside observer, surely the "foreign owners" reference is explained as follows.
QPR appear to be asking LBH&F to gift them the land at LCS (on the basis that they risk losing QPR to the Borough if they don't?).
Now let us suppose that the land is worth, say, £30m(?) for development purposes. Then QPR build a stadium on it for £100m(?).
It would then be open to the owners to accept any offer over £100m from a new buyer and they'd still make a profit (though the whole venture would likely fetch more than £130m).
Meaning the whole of the £30m value of the site would effectively have been lost to LBH&F and remember, it doesn't belong to the Council, it belongs to the people who live within the Borough.
Now let us consider if QPR were owned eg by your supporters, or some other local Community Trust. In those circumstances, the £30m value of the land at LCS could be argued to be staying within the Borough, albeit indirectly.
Moreover, such owners would be far less likely to want to expoit the club for their own personal gain (asset-stripping, redevelopment, sale to some Saudi mass murderer etc).
To take a comparison (I know, I know), but LB Hounslow were generally pretty helpful to BFC, not least because they knew that local man Matthew Benham had the best long-term interests of the club at heart. Also they didn't have to contribute to the cost of the project, while it brought in 1,000 new homes to a brownfield industrial site/Griffin Park.
Of course, QPR fans might argue that your owners are similarly well-disposed towards the club and the area.
But LBH&F aren't in the business of relying on such sentiment, esp when there are so many other foreign vultures hovering around English football clubs.
Besides, things can always change.
P.S. Of course there remains another option open to QPR, which is to make the Council a fair offer for the land they need. Considering the state of local government finances, I doubt that LBH&F would turn the money down just because it was in foreign currency. |
Common sense post. | | | |
| Linford Christie Stadium. on 13:18 - Oct 29 with 2644 views | Northernr |
| Linford Christie Stadium. on 13:16 - Oct 29 by NewBee |
Speaking as an outside observer, surely the "foreign owners" reference is explained as follows.
QPR appear to be asking LBH&F to gift them the land at LCS (on the basis that they risk losing QPR to the Borough if they don't?).
Now let us suppose that the land is worth, say, £30m(?) for development purposes. Then QPR build a stadium on it for £100m(?).
It would then be open to the owners to accept any offer over £100m from a new buyer and they'd still make a profit (though the whole venture would likely fetch more than £130m).
Meaning the whole of the £30m value of the site would effectively have been lost to LBH&F and remember, it doesn't belong to the Council, it belongs to the people who live within the Borough.
Now let us consider if QPR were owned eg by your supporters, or some other local Community Trust. In those circumstances, the £30m value of the land at LCS could be argued to be staying within the Borough, albeit indirectly.
Moreover, such owners would be far less likely to want to expoit the club for their own personal gain (asset-stripping, redevelopment, sale to some Saudi mass murderer etc).
To take a comparison (I know, I know), but LB Hounslow were generally pretty helpful to BFC, not least because they knew that local man Matthew Benham had the best long-term interests of the club at heart. Also they didn't have to contribute to the cost of the project, while it brought in 1,000 new homes to a brownfield industrial site/Griffin Park.
Of course, QPR fans might argue that your owners are similarly well-disposed towards the club and the area.
But LBH&F aren't in the business of relying on such sentiment, esp when there are so many other foreign vultures hovering around English football clubs.
Besides, things can always change.
P.S. Of course there remains another option open to QPR, which is to make the Council a fair offer for the land they need. Considering the state of local government finances, I doubt that LBH&F would turn the money down just because it was in foreign currency. |
And how is any of that any different if it's a big fat English owner like Mike Ashley? |  | | |
| Linford Christie Stadium. on 13:18 - Oct 29 with 2640 views | ParkRoyalR |
| Linford Christie Stadium. on 13:10 - Oct 29 by BazzaInTheLoft |
Three paragraphs of politics and then you tell us you aren't interested in it. |
1st & 3rd paragraphs completely non-political,
2nd paragraph admittedly I live in the borough and know a fair few H&F employees so can attest to lets just say a questionable level of productivity in certain departments, unfortunately the planning department being well renowned as one. | | | |
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| Linford Christie Stadium. on 13:26 - Oct 29 with 2562 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Linford Christie Stadium. on 13:07 - Oct 29 by daveB |
Isn't the idea of the stadium to make is a community stadium with facilities the community can use.
Really they need to stop arguing over the internet and get into a room together |
No, it will be a land swap where the excess land will developed into either property or a cultural quarter with wine bars, outlets, and food kiosks. They might send coaches to the local schools but there will be no local governance of QPR or new schools, hospitals, GPs surgeries, parks, or social housing will there? | | | |
| Linford Christie Stadium. on 13:32 - Oct 29 with 2504 views | terryb |
| Linford Christie Stadium. on 13:18 - Oct 29 by Northernr |
And how is any of that any different if it's a big fat English owner like Mike Ashley? |
Is the reference to overseas owners any different to Todd Kane referring to a foreign ****?
Not that I think that an enquiry should be held into the use of inappropriate language! | | | |
| Linford Christie Stadium. on 13:34 - Oct 29 with 2483 views | NewBee |
| Linford Christie Stadium. on 13:18 - Oct 29 by Northernr |
And how is any of that any different if it's a big fat English owner like Mike Ashley? |
It's not.
But big fat Mike Asley isn't asking the local Council to gift him a site worth millions, either.
Which is yet another reason why neither the Council nor the local community had any say when he sold NUFC to another foreign operation nakedly seeking to expoilt the club for their own ends.
But I'll give you one thing - would you have objected to LBH&F referring to "non-local" owners instead of foreign ones? [Post edited 29 Oct 2021 13:36]
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| Linford Christie Stadium. on 13:34 - Oct 29 with 2490 views | ParkRoyalR |
| Linford Christie Stadium. on 13:26 - Oct 29 by BazzaInTheLoft |
No, it will be a land swap where the excess land will developed into either property or a cultural quarter with wine bars, outlets, and food kiosks. They might send coaches to the local schools but there will be no local governance of QPR or new schools, hospitals, GPs surgeries, parks, or social housing will there? |
I grew up and remain local and a new training ground on Linford Christie Stadium would have been a huge boost for a very deprived part of London (White City / North Kensington / Harlesden / Stonebridge etc) in terms of employment, access to 1st class training facilities for local kids and schools etc
Such a shame the leader of the local council can't see beyond a snidey foreign owners jibe and really do some good on behalf of his young constituents. Another example of self-interested politicians more concerned about courting popularity than actually doing good. | | | |
| Linford Christie Stadium. on 13:42 - Oct 29 with 2434 views | NewBee |
| Linford Christie Stadium. on 13:34 - Oct 29 by ParkRoyalR |
I grew up and remain local and a new training ground on Linford Christie Stadium would have been a huge boost for a very deprived part of London (White City / North Kensington / Harlesden / Stonebridge etc) in terms of employment, access to 1st class training facilities for local kids and schools etc
Such a shame the leader of the local council can't see beyond a snidey foreign owners jibe and really do some good on behalf of his young constituents. Another example of self-interested politicians more concerned about courting popularity than actually doing good. |
Except that the residents of LBH&F always have the opportunity to turf out these self-interested politicians if they're not doing what's best for the Borough.
Whereas once the LCS site is given away to QPR or s.o. else, then local residents have no more power to influence events.
Alternatively, if QPR offered to pay for the site they need, then the Council could use the proceeds to improve the lot of the people in an otherwise deprived area.
And risk getting turfed out at the next election should they screw it up. [Post edited 29 Oct 2021 13:45]
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| Linford Christie Stadium. on 13:45 - Oct 29 with 2425 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Linford Christie Stadium. on 12:42 - Oct 29 by BazzaInTheLoft |
I'm 100% behind the Council. And before anyone starts, i've backed Tory Cllrs in other areas over similar issues with the FSA.
Would love a new stadium, but it can't come without benefit to the local community. The club (and by these I mean the directors) can't have their cake and eat it. Both Chelsea and Fulham provided community assets. Why are we so special?
Build on LFC, turn LR into whatever local amenity is needed. Simple. We are a football club not property speculators. |
Baz, I get their point and I may even support it.
But, two questions (for anyone, really):
1) What community assets have other clubs provided, and
2) Is there an honest and good reason they keep mention 'foreign' owners? |  |
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| Linford Christie Stadium. on 13:45 - Oct 29 with 2420 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Linford Christie Stadium. on 13:34 - Oct 29 by ParkRoyalR |
I grew up and remain local and a new training ground on Linford Christie Stadium would have been a huge boost for a very deprived part of London (White City / North Kensington / Harlesden / Stonebridge etc) in terms of employment, access to 1st class training facilities for local kids and schools etc
Such a shame the leader of the local council can't see beyond a snidey foreign owners jibe and really do some good on behalf of his young constituents. Another example of self-interested politicians more concerned about courting popularity than actually doing good. |
LCS isnt big enough for a training ground. Harlington has about six pitches, a huge college building, and a car park and that isn't enough. Man City's training is the size of a small town.
How many will a stadium employ bearing in mind it will only be used 22 times a year totalling 70 odd hours?
All our considerations are QPR related. I get that.
The council's considerations are electability, environmental impact, social impact, planning impact. disruption, policing, economic, and legal.
Foreign jibes are unnecessary, but the point is valid. | | | |
| Linford Christie Stadium. on 13:46 - Oct 29 with 2413 views | Northernr |
| Linford Christie Stadium. on 13:34 - Oct 29 by NewBee |
It's not.
But big fat Mike Asley isn't asking the local Council to gift him a site worth millions, either.
Which is yet another reason why neither the Council nor the local community had any say when he sold NUFC to another foreign operation nakedly seeking to expoilt the club for their own ends.
But I'll give you one thing - would you have objected to LBH&F referring to "non-local" owners instead of foreign ones? [Post edited 29 Oct 2021 13:36]
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Yeh. I don't think it's a good look at all, for a Labour council, in a mutli-cultural borough, to constantly be dog whistling that the owners are Malaysian. The bloke that tried to sell the Racecourse Ground out from under Wrexham wasn't foreign, the bloke that did the same to Hereford at Edgar Street, the bloke that took the Goldstone Ground off Brighton for a B&Q. Mike Ashley lives up the road from me, so he probably would qualify as a local owner. I don't like the Saudis, the Russians, the Americans, buying up our clubs, sweating them for their profit, sport washing their atrocities. But I also didn't like what Chris Wright did to us, or Ashley to Newcastle, or Ken Bates... There are bad owners and good owners.
All of your other points I obviously agree with. As I said higher up what they seem to fear is that the whole south side of SAR including Loftus Road is absolutely ripe for an enormous, very lucrative development that our owners could cash in on while moving us onto a gifted or cheap bit of public land a mile away. I put exactly this point to Lee Hoos in our interview with him last month. I also asked him if we wanted the LCS why don't we bid for it? That's all fair enough, but as he said in that interview, why does it matter where the owners are from? It's not very becoming, or very clever, of the council to keep making out like the fact the owners are Malaysian has some sort of bearing on this. | | | |
| Linford Christie Stadium. on 13:58 - Oct 29 with 2345 views | QPR_Jim |
| Linford Christie Stadium. on 13:15 - Oct 29 by BazzaInTheLoft |
It is exactly what they said. Schools and hospitals are also a drain on the public purse. Should we hand them over too when they become dilapidated?
Plenty of precedent on how to conduct the planning of a new stadium. You don't strong arm the council for starters because they will have the NIMBYs onside for starters and then the whole project is lost
Hope it all works out, but my sympathies just don't lie with billionaire property developers and airline magnates. |
I thought they did that all the time with design, build & manage contracts. If it's done right it benefits everyone.
I also think it's far fetched to say they're strong arming them, the council launched a consultation and wanted to look for partners. The owners are just trying to protect the community asset they own by making sure that any deal will be a benefit to the club in the long term and help it meet the league's sustainability rules. At one point the council we're trying to put us in as tenants to a stadium we'd have no say in and no ability to earn non match day revenue from which would kill us off, so if that's what partnering with the council looks like they can shove it.
Perhaps you should stop thinking of the billionaire owners and instead focus on the community asset that's being penalised due to the perceived wealth of it's owners. |  | | |
| Linford Christie Stadium. on 14:03 - Oct 29 with 2303 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Linford Christie Stadium. on 13:45 - Oct 29 by BrianMcCarthy |
Baz, I get their point and I may even support it.
But, two questions (for anyone, really):
1) What community assets have other clubs provided, and
2) Is there an honest and good reason they keep mention 'foreign' owners? |
1) Fulham have and will redevelop Bishops Park and updated the coastal marine pathway. Bear in mind though that Fulham didn't actually want any land from H&FC.
Spurs built a new sixth-form college, 300 homes, and a new primary school.
2) Yeah, foreign based property ownership avoids tax and leaves homes and shops empty. They should have been more careful with the wording though. | | | |
| Linford Christie Stadium. on 14:03 - Oct 29 with 2301 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Linford Christie Stadium. on 13:04 - Oct 29 by ParkRoyalR |
Not a Rights of Light expert, but if you're bring the roof out to the pavement edge by some 10 metres at the same height, I think it would have minimal / zero impact on sunlight / daylight in flats opposite.
Key issue would be planning to oversail / build-over the pavement. This is within H&F's gift.
I think if the club was to submit a planning application on this basis, H&F would have to be seen to receive positively as no reason not to, plus it might have the added benefit of forcing their hand long-term about Linford Christie site, ie, we don't need it, but if we ever do become a sustainable Premier League club, we'd be willing to talk about a land-swap. |
"Not a Rights of Light expert, but if you're bring the roof out to the pavement edge by some 10 metres at the same height, I think it would have minimal / zero impact on sunlight / daylight in flats opposite."
Looks tight to me, but I haven't worked with English planning since the proposed Hadrian's Wall was being objected to by the Scots. | |
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| Linford Christie Stadium. on 14:08 - Oct 29 with 2280 views | Northernr |
| Linford Christie Stadium. on 14:03 - Oct 29 by BazzaInTheLoft |
1) Fulham have and will redevelop Bishops Park and updated the coastal marine pathway. Bear in mind though that Fulham didn't actually want any land from H&FC.
Spurs built a new sixth-form college, 300 homes, and a new primary school.
2) Yeah, foreign based property ownership avoids tax and leaves homes and shops empty. They should have been more careful with the wording though. |
If that, 2), is the reason they keep mentioning it I understand it a bit more. Fear of SAR turning into another 9 Elms? Just sounded a little bit Daily Mail at first glance.
Worth saying though that the Olympic stadium stitch up and gentrified mess made of Upton Park was by the very British porn peddlers at West Ham, and there can be few such deals done that weee worse for the public purse than that one.
This post has been edited by an administrator | | | |
| Linford Christie Stadium. on 14:11 - Oct 29 with 2265 views | Konk |
The council have been generally very supportive of Fulham and Chelsea, but in both cases it's obviously been redevelopment projects on existing sites.
I get where the council are coming from, but the focus on foreign-ownership is a bit strange. When they're talking about fan-ownership, could it be that they're looking for something similar to the Chelsea Pitch Owners arrangement, that would theoretically root the club at LCS for the long term?
Meanwhile, it's really not ideal that Rangers and the council seem have something of an antagonistic relationship, conducted through press releases. Barnet FC were looking to move to the run down Copthall Athletics stadium for years and years before the council approved Saracens move there and its redevelopment. It's been suggested to me by a former-councillor, that the borough didn't trust the Barnet owner, Tony Kleanthous, didn't like him, and even though they wanted the site redeveloped, they would never have struck a deal with the club whilst he owned it.
I hope you get something sorted in the borough and LCS stadium looks to be the most obvious location at the moment. |  |
| Fulham FC: It's the taking part that counts |
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| Linford Christie Stadium. on 14:14 - Oct 29 with 2254 views | ParkRoyalR |
| Linford Christie Stadium. on 13:45 - Oct 29 by BazzaInTheLoft |
LCS isnt big enough for a training ground. Harlington has about six pitches, a huge college building, and a car park and that isn't enough. Man City's training is the size of a small town.
How many will a stadium employ bearing in mind it will only be used 22 times a year totalling 70 odd hours?
All our considerations are QPR related. I get that.
The council's considerations are electability, environmental impact, social impact, planning impact. disruption, policing, economic, and legal.
Foreign jibes are unnecessary, but the point is valid. |
LCS is a potentially huge site as when I've used a car to get there, you can either drive up alongside the prison wall (off Du Cane Road) or access off Wood Lane (just past Danes Ark Academy)
From memory there's the stadium, the bank of 6 aside pitches, an 11 aside pitch and then the road behind Woodman Close estate and the front carpark (that housed Grenfell school temporary relocation). Sure this far bigger than when I was last at Concord ground but fairly immaterial now as nobody at H&F had the sense to see the opportunity and engage QPR. | | | |
| Linford Christie Stadium. on 14:23 - Oct 29 with 2187 views | R_from_afar |
| Linford Christie Stadium. on 13:08 - Oct 29 by toboboly |
Hehehehehehehehe |
This section is wonderful:
“As regards to fan ownership of the club, as I have stated before, any fans who would like an equity stake in the club and want to continue funding the deficits that we incur every year due to the condition of the current stadium, please get in contact as the shareholders would be delighted to be relieved of this onerous task".
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| "Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1." |
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| Linford Christie Stadium. on 14:24 - Oct 29 with 2180 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Linford Christie Stadium. on 14:14 - Oct 29 by ParkRoyalR |
LCS is a potentially huge site as when I've used a car to get there, you can either drive up alongside the prison wall (off Du Cane Road) or access off Wood Lane (just past Danes Ark Academy)
From memory there's the stadium, the bank of 6 aside pitches, an 11 aside pitch and then the road behind Woodman Close estate and the front carpark (that housed Grenfell school temporary relocation). Sure this far bigger than when I was last at Concord ground but fairly immaterial now as nobody at H&F had the sense to see the opportunity and engage QPR. |
In terms of opportunity, we are at the back of the queue.
We bring neither money nor facilities to the area in truth. Any revenue the 12,000 of us bring on a matchday for an hour and a half to 3 hours is offset by congestion and disruption the matches bring to transport, police, and road closures.
Imagine council tax revenues 1,000 new homes would bring for example. Or Westfield.
I want a stadium there but the directors need to be realistic, however I also acknowledge these guys aren't billionaires because they have provided local facilities everywhere they lay their hat. | | | |
| Linford Christie Stadium. on 14:28 - Oct 29 with 2456 views | LazyFan |
This is a classic case of using 3rd parties to represent you. Or as it used to be called outsourcing. Don't do it.
Do, it yourself always if you can and get it under control or expect many many many things to go wrong. once you give away control you lose quality.
Now it's public, perhaps they can move forward. They should also not only sack the 3rd party but take them to court as a lesson to anyone else who wants to "manage the client" (council). |  |
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