| QPR Finances released 06:25 - Feb 28 with 59715 views | Jeff |
From Kieran Maguire in the Twitter:
[Post edited 28 Feb 2023 6:29]
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| QPR Finances released on 13:56 - Mar 1 with 2944 views | NewBee |
| QPR Finances released on 10:52 - Mar 1 by bakerloo8 |
Pretty grim reading.
I think the crux of the problem is the people in charge have a flawed business model which involves short term-ism throwing money around in the hope we magically make it to the Premier league and they can continue playing their real life version of Champ Manager 01/02.
Until this changes, and I don't see it happening anytime soon, we will continue this cycle of boom and bust over a rolling 3 year cycle whilst more likely leaving the division through the bottom rather than the top.
Why oh why do we have players on loan at this club at the detriment of developing our own and at a massive financial disadvantage? It's complete madness and I don't for the life of me see anything changing. |
"Why oh why do we have players on loan at this club at the detriment of developing our own and at a massive financial disadvantage? It's complete madness..."
I don't know whether it was explicit club policy to "follow the Brentford model", or just a suggestion by QPR fans, but once Benham got Bees into good shape, he basically banned the use of players borrowed from other clubs. I think his stated rationale was: "Why should we pay to develop other teams' players?"
Of course this was pertinent because we had been borrowing youngsters and not veterans - with one purely expedient exception*, I can't recall us ever bothering with any of the latter, certainly not in recent years.
* - 32 y.o. Winston Reid from WHU in the January window of our promotion season - played 11 Championship games as a stop-gap. |  | | |
| QPR Finances released on 14:08 - Mar 1 with 2862 views | Benny_the_Ball |
| QPR Finances released on 11:36 - Mar 1 by francisbowles |
The Academy is for the most part deductible from FFP totals, so why would you scrap it. Downscale it? How and why?
We have just built a new training ground, large enough next season, to take all the squads. Why would we tear up that plan now? It's probably the only real achievement in the last nine years.
We have to give this a chance to work but it is a long term thing. The youth this year seem more encouraging but the real outcome may take longer to judge. |
The academy and training ground are separate entities. In spite of building a new training ground, QPR have Cat2 academy status meaning that clubs with Cat1 status can cherry pick our best young talent for peanuts. According to Les in recent years QPR has lost 5 players for little over £100k. If the club's strategy is to work then it must either invest in obtaining Cat1 status or ditch the academy altogether and focus on the B team. Either way, the training ground will continue to serve its purpose for developing players. |  | | |
| QPR Finances released on 14:10 - Mar 1 with 2852 views | R_from_afar |
| QPR Finances released on 12:54 - Mar 1 by TK1 |
Ha! But did they? DJ Campbell cost over a million quid and played a dozen times, Rob Hulse cost a million quid and played 20 odd games scoring twice, Park cost 4 million and played 20 times, Cesar signed a four year deal: played 25 times...
It's a good game this. I've keep thinking of more names since: John O'Neil, Nick Ward, El Khayati... |
An utterly horrific list 
Over the years, we've taken on more rubbish than most landfill sites. |  |
| "Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1." |
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| QPR Finances released on 14:17 - Mar 1 with 2794 views | NewBee |
| QPR Finances released on 11:08 - Mar 1 by Northolt_Rs |
I guess it’s because the people developing our own players have consistently failed to do so after 8 years…..so, every new manager who comes in takes a look at the academy offerings and thinks ‘Fck this dogsh1t lot will lose me my job!’. Club is a horrible mess from top to bottom and needs a total reset with Ferdinand and Hoos replaced asap. Coaching and scouting staff need a total revamp too. Place is broken. |
Agree. For even if an Academy is producing good youngsters, with the average tenure of a Championship manager now being less than a year, why would any manager trust to wait for the two or three years (minimum) it would take for them to mature and start producing consistently? He'd almost certainly be sacked long before then.
On the other hand, any manager who does make a good start at a club, whether by playing youth or not, is always liable to have an eye on the main chance and leave for a bigger club after a season or two while his stock is still high. (M-c-a-l B-a-e?)
Two notable examples of this are Mourinho and Conte, who both had access to just about the best Academy in England while at Chelsea, but basically ignored their youngsters, demanding the club signed ready-made players instead.
Which means that the only way round this is for club owners to have a clear, long term commitment to youth, including also developing their internal coaching staff, so that you only ever appoint interchangeable Head Coaches (not managers), who know that they must work with who they are given.
I'd wager that Warburton refused to follow this model - he rejected it at Bees, after all - this being the real reason for his departure.
While I'm not sure about Ainsworth's appointment, either. Otoh he was at WWFC for a long and stable period; oto he doesn't seem to have employed the type of football you'd imagine QPR's youngsters have been schooled in.
More like pressing the big red "Emergency!" button? [Post edited 1 Mar 2023 14:44]
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| QPR Finances released on 14:25 - Mar 1 with 2776 views | Gloucs_R |
| QPR Finances released on 12:54 - Mar 1 by TK1 |
Ha! But did they? DJ Campbell cost over a million quid and played a dozen times, Rob Hulse cost a million quid and played 20 odd games scoring twice, Park cost 4 million and played 20 times, Cesar signed a four year deal: played 25 times...
It's a good game this. I've keep thinking of more names since: John O'Neil, Nick Ward, El Khayati... |
Ok. You win. I lose. ðŸ˜ðŸ«£ðŸ˜‚
ðŸ‘👠|  |
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| QPR Finances released on 14:31 - Mar 1 with 2752 views | Northernr |
Always interesting to revisit what was said at the time isn't it...
https://www.fansnetwork.co.uk/football/queensparkrangers/news/55699/
Have we pushed the boat out this summer?
No, the boat is running at exactly the speed it should have been running. Everything was done within budget. The whole business plan, we’ve always said, is about developing players and in order to replace the missing parachute payments we’re going to have to sell players. We did a great deal with Ebere Eze, some of that money has been able to be reinvested, I think we’ve invested it very wisely and it’s allowed us a cushion within FFP. When I’m doing budgets for player recruitment I don’t just look at the current season. I’ve got a spreadsheet that says this is us this year, this is the effect on FFP next year, this is the effect the year after — it’s always a running three years because that’s what the recording period is. It’s always this season plus two seasons, and this season minus two seasons ago, so we always know where we stand with it and know we have that cushion. The finances on that front have worked well this season. Other seasons you need to sell a player to bring in funds, this year we felt it important to hang onto the boys. That strategy has challenges as well, you need to get the message out to other clubs, please don’t waste your time giving me a bid and risk upsetting the apple cart because come September 1 he will still be with us and you turning his head for a couple of weeks is just going to piss us off.
Have we been able to do this purely because we got decent money for Luke Freeman and then excellent money for Ebere Eze?
Absolutely. It’s the sales. This will contradict what I said about the single biggest source of income being tickets, the single biggest source of income will probably be player sales because that’s where you get the big hits from.
Can you explain how the FFP/P&S rules have been changed around Covid?
Are you sure you want to get into this? We can get the financial director down here for chapter and verse but it would be one of the worst podcasts ever recorded.
I’ll be that guy.
Let me give you the high level answer to that. They are averaging the previous years into one year, to give them an estimated idea. That’s how it’s been relaxed. They recognise actually trying to account for ‘you lost £x in revenue but you’ve cut this much in costs’ and trying to do it that way for 24 Championship clubs would be a logistical nightmare. They’ve taken two years, averaged it out, that’s your recorded figure for the Covid year. Just so you know though, even if it had been one year, we’d have been fine.
So was this summer seen as a good time to hang onto players and invest in some more because of that, because of the state of the rest of the league, because of how we finished last season?
All of the above, plus some. It’s because of the players involved, let’s face it I love watching Ilias and Chris on the pitch together, it’s a fantastic combination and they are fun to watch. It’s keeping those kinds of flair players and adding players like Jordy and Jimmy Dunne to stiffen up the defence. That needed to be done. Because we were ahead of the curve on FFP/P&S, had kept everything tight through the lockdown, and other clubs are struggling and market conditions are nosediving for players, it’s allowed us to go in and take advantage. If you’d told me three years ago ‘here’s the business we’ve done this summer and here’s what it cost us’ I’d have said ‘there’s no chance of that happening’. We’re in the right place, at the right time, because of the way things have been managed in the past and we’ve managed to get all our business done. |  | | |
| QPR Finances released on 14:39 - Mar 1 with 2681 views | NewBee |
| QPR Finances released on 14:08 - Mar 1 by Benny_the_Ball |
The academy and training ground are separate entities. In spite of building a new training ground, QPR have Cat2 academy status meaning that clubs with Cat1 status can cherry pick our best young talent for peanuts. According to Les in recent years QPR has lost 5 players for little over £100k. If the club's strategy is to work then it must either invest in obtaining Cat1 status or ditch the academy altogether and focus on the B team. Either way, the training ground will continue to serve its purpose for developing players. |
Category 1 is horrifically expensive - extra staff/facilities costs essentially - and while QPR Cat.1 youngsters signed by big clubs would then qualify for reasonable compensation, you'd still be losing them to Chelsea, L'pool, Man Utd etc before you'd have got much (any?) 1st team games out of them.
As for the "B" Team model, since Brexit it has become very difficult to get work permits for promising 19 or 20 y.o. players from the EU who've just been rejected prematurely by clubs in their home country.
Which is one reason why Brentford are now reviving their own Academy (another being that an Academy is now a UEFA requirement for clubs playing in European competition  ) | | | |
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| QPR Finances released on 14:46 - Mar 1 with 2659 views | PastCaringNW2 |
Does the reported gate money seem on the low side to anyone else?
Increasing the ticket sales isn't going to move the dial for us all that much in terns the bigger picture but that doesn't feel like a lot given the reported attendances. Suggests there are a lot more kids and OAPs that are season ticket holders than I would have expected. Or do our gate numbers include a whole lot of comps?
Looking around the upper loft this season the fan base is not getting any younger, myself included, which might explain a lot but, whatever the cause, the per attendee take is not looking all that healthy for a Championship side.
£5.6m x 1.2 = £6.72m inc VAT in 2021-22 season.
23 League games, 2 pre season *, 3 games in the LC and one in the FA Cup.
That's £232k per game on average or thereabouts inc VAT.
I missed the Man Utd and Leicester games so have no idea how well attended they were but assume they were better than the Atalanta or Union games for example. |  | | |
| QPR Finances released on 15:07 - Mar 1 with 2585 views | BAWHoops |
Is there a world where we don't end up in League 1/breaching FFP in the next 3 years?
Struggling to see it |  |
| http://blogandwhitehoops.wordpress.com/ |
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| QPR Finances released on 15:15 - Mar 1 with 2541 views | francisbowles |
| QPR Finances released on 14:08 - Mar 1 by Benny_the_Ball |
The academy and training ground are separate entities. In spite of building a new training ground, QPR have Cat2 academy status meaning that clubs with Cat1 status can cherry pick our best young talent for peanuts. According to Les in recent years QPR has lost 5 players for little over £100k. If the club's strategy is to work then it must either invest in obtaining Cat1 status or ditch the academy altogether and focus on the B team. Either way, the training ground will continue to serve its purpose for developing players. |
They may have been separate entities up until now but they are due to be inextricably linked, in the new facility.
It is hoped that better young players will be attracted and retained, with better facilities and a better chance of first team football. | | | |
| QPR Finances released on 15:44 - Mar 1 with 2454 views | Monkey_Roots |
| QPR Finances released on 14:31 - Mar 1 by Northernr |
Always interesting to revisit what was said at the time isn't it...
https://www.fansnetwork.co.uk/football/queensparkrangers/news/55699/
Have we pushed the boat out this summer?
No, the boat is running at exactly the speed it should have been running. Everything was done within budget. The whole business plan, we’ve always said, is about developing players and in order to replace the missing parachute payments we’re going to have to sell players. We did a great deal with Ebere Eze, some of that money has been able to be reinvested, I think we’ve invested it very wisely and it’s allowed us a cushion within FFP. When I’m doing budgets for player recruitment I don’t just look at the current season. I’ve got a spreadsheet that says this is us this year, this is the effect on FFP next year, this is the effect the year after — it’s always a running three years because that’s what the recording period is. It’s always this season plus two seasons, and this season minus two seasons ago, so we always know where we stand with it and know we have that cushion. The finances on that front have worked well this season. Other seasons you need to sell a player to bring in funds, this year we felt it important to hang onto the boys. That strategy has challenges as well, you need to get the message out to other clubs, please don’t waste your time giving me a bid and risk upsetting the apple cart because come September 1 he will still be with us and you turning his head for a couple of weeks is just going to piss us off.
Have we been able to do this purely because we got decent money for Luke Freeman and then excellent money for Ebere Eze?
Absolutely. It’s the sales. This will contradict what I said about the single biggest source of income being tickets, the single biggest source of income will probably be player sales because that’s where you get the big hits from.
Can you explain how the FFP/P&S rules have been changed around Covid?
Are you sure you want to get into this? We can get the financial director down here for chapter and verse but it would be one of the worst podcasts ever recorded.
I’ll be that guy.
Let me give you the high level answer to that. They are averaging the previous years into one year, to give them an estimated idea. That’s how it’s been relaxed. They recognise actually trying to account for ‘you lost £x in revenue but you’ve cut this much in costs’ and trying to do it that way for 24 Championship clubs would be a logistical nightmare. They’ve taken two years, averaged it out, that’s your recorded figure for the Covid year. Just so you know though, even if it had been one year, we’d have been fine.
So was this summer seen as a good time to hang onto players and invest in some more because of that, because of the state of the rest of the league, because of how we finished last season?
All of the above, plus some. It’s because of the players involved, let’s face it I love watching Ilias and Chris on the pitch together, it’s a fantastic combination and they are fun to watch. It’s keeping those kinds of flair players and adding players like Jordy and Jimmy Dunne to stiffen up the defence. That needed to be done. Because we were ahead of the curve on FFP/P&S, had kept everything tight through the lockdown, and other clubs are struggling and market conditions are nosediving for players, it’s allowed us to go in and take advantage. If you’d told me three years ago ‘here’s the business we’ve done this summer and here’s what it cost us’ I’d have said ‘there’s no chance of that happening’. We’re in the right place, at the right time, because of the way things have been managed in the past and we’ve managed to get all our business done. |
If you are in charge of finances, and you post these numbers, you should be unceremoniously dumped on your backside.
'But Burnley!... Cough... Right place!... Cough... Right time!'
Don't let the door hit your fanny on the way out. |  | | |
| QPR Finances released on 15:45 - Mar 1 with 2447 views | digswellhoop |
theres a peice in evening standard shows even worse picture | | | |
| QPR Finances released on 16:56 - Mar 1 with 2323 views | themodfather |
i needed cheering up, this has been a dazzling insight, many sharp replies but sadly how do you run a footy club or any business where you accept losing £2m a month? and expect no negative comments from concerned customers/fans ? think all is well ( cos surely interest payments just go up and up?) and carry on regardless?
we have had some "successful businessmen" on our board, yet the fiasco just goes on. it is not just qprfc but across football .
new ground and facilities has been a red herring, a smoke screen cos we never had the money , unless it is more loans, so more debts?
results matter and wins bring confidence, bigger gates and tv money , we ain't won this year . | | | |
| QPR Finances released on 17:01 - Mar 1 with 2309 views | Northernr |
| QPR Finances released on 16:56 - Mar 1 by themodfather |
i needed cheering up, this has been a dazzling insight, many sharp replies but sadly how do you run a footy club or any business where you accept losing £2m a month? and expect no negative comments from concerned customers/fans ? think all is well ( cos surely interest payments just go up and up?) and carry on regardless?
we have had some "successful businessmen" on our board, yet the fiasco just goes on. it is not just qprfc but across football .
new ground and facilities has been a red herring, a smoke screen cos we never had the money , unless it is more loans, so more debts?
results matter and wins bring confidence, bigger gates and tv money , we ain't won this year . |
It was the same with Chris Wright, successful businessmen lose their minds in football.
If Tony Fernandes' airlines or hotels, of Ruben's shipping company, was paying out £127 in wages for every £100 it brought through the door, and losing £2m a month doing it, they'd just laugh. Obviously fcking not. Close it. But in football that's just fine. | | | |
| QPR Finances released on 17:07 - Mar 1 with 2261 views | PinnerPaul |
| QPR Finances released on 17:01 - Mar 1 by Northernr |
It was the same with Chris Wright, successful businessmen lose their minds in football.
If Tony Fernandes' airlines or hotels, of Ruben's shipping company, was paying out £127 in wages for every £100 it brought through the door, and losing £2m a month doing it, they'd just laugh. Obviously fcking not. Close it. But in football that's just fine. |
Yes that's true.
I think aided and abetted by HMRC and the banks/people lending money.
Why do football clubs appear to be treated much better by these organisations than normal businesses?
I'm always amazed when its reported clubs in trouble haven't passed on VAT/Income Tax/Ni for months sometimes over a year before HMRC start even thinking about really doing something about it - its barmy! | | | |
| QPR Finances released on 17:12 - Mar 1 with 2229 views | PinnerPaul |
Genuine question.
Do we think players that would have made the 1st team haven't just because Chris Ramsey is in charge?
Seems a simplistic argument to me, prompted by Brentford abandoning the idea and Simon Jordan on that documentary admitting that despite Palace's massive youth set up, it didn't guarantee that ANY players they bring through there would actually 'make it'.
Also if it WERE true, wouldn't we expect to see ex QPR academy players making 1st teams elsewhere?
Does that happen, is their a list of players we have let go at 16,17,18 whatever that have made it?
If there are, fair enough - I genuinely don't know if there are. | | | |
| QPR Finances released on 17:17 - Mar 1 with 2219 views | Northernr |
| QPR Finances released on 17:07 - Mar 1 by PinnerPaul |
Yes that's true.
I think aided and abetted by HMRC and the banks/people lending money.
Why do football clubs appear to be treated much better by these organisations than normal businesses?
I'm always amazed when its reported clubs in trouble haven't passed on VAT/Income Tax/Ni for months sometimes over a year before HMRC start even thinking about really doing something about it - its barmy! |
Because nobody wants to be the bank/government that forced the closure of a football club do they? Not a big business/vote winner. And, like you say, clubs take full advantage of that. I'm sure HMRC would be absolutely fine with me running up several million quid's worth of owings over the course of several years, as Derby were allowed to, and then accepting 10p in the pound from me. Not a problem at all. They're notoriously chill about that, HMRC, I gather  | | | |
| QPR Finances released on 17:41 - Mar 1 with 2103 views | PinnerPaul |
| QPR Finances released on 17:17 - Mar 1 by Northernr |
Because nobody wants to be the bank/government that forced the closure of a football club do they? Not a big business/vote winner. And, like you say, clubs take full advantage of that. I'm sure HMRC would be absolutely fine with me running up several million quid's worth of owings over the course of several years, as Derby were allowed to, and then accepting 10p in the pound from me. Not a problem at all. They're notoriously chill about that, HMRC, I gather |
Once during my time at ITV, HMRC sent two 'investigators' down to interview the chief accountant and we hadn't actually done anything wrong.
It was like a police interview apparently - Mr Nice and Mr Nasty, just trying to catch him out!
I'm sure they never visit any FCs! | | | |
| QPR Finances released on 17:45 - Mar 1 with 2095 views | Wilkinswatercarrier |
| QPR Finances released on 15:07 - Mar 1 by BAWHoops |
Is there a world where we don't end up in League 1/breaching FFP in the next 3 years?
Struggling to see it |
I think this is the real issue here. Fans (us), all now worried sick that the club is imploding. The Eze money was meant to cushion the club for a couple of years while we developed some more gems. We have wasted an opportunity again.
I dont believe for a second that there is not a fullback in League 1, 2 of the Nationsl League we could have picked up that is better than what we have now. Only 1 fit striker that's our own (Armstrong), a load sick note loans, and signings who have awful injury records.
Sh@t show. | | | |
| QPR Finances released on 18:39 - Mar 1 with 1953 views | stanistheman |
| QPR Finances released on 22:20 - Feb 28 by daveB |
One way to get some money in might be to go mad and have a cup run, it brings prize money, tv money and gate money in. Bristol City getting a nice payday tonight as are Fleetwood tomorrow |
Been saying that for years now, but the powers that be don’t emphasise the point to the managers who put out weakened teams season after season. I mean putting Hamalainen and leaving out other first choice players against Fleetwood was a great plan wasn’t it? | | | |
| QPR Finances released on 18:46 - Mar 1 with 1920 views | stanistheman |
| QPR Finances released on 10:50 - Mar 1 by Gloucs_R |
Just out of curiosity, how would everyone feel about a massive reset?
Let's say the club sold off all of our playing assets. Then they stuck rigidly to a budget, which would be considerably lower than it is today.
Therefore the quality of the players coming in may not be as high as what we have been used to ( 😂 ) and relegation far more of a possibility than in previous seasons.
Would we as fans accept this because the club are running a tight financial ship or would we still moan that we're not competitive?
Personally I would accept a couple of seasons of hardship, proper back to the wall type stuff. As long as the board had a longer-term plan which they shared with us. |
That was the same thinking in the 2014-15 Premiership season. It didn’t work then and it probably won’t next time either. How long have Ipswich been in L1 or Charlton?
I bet some of their fans thought the same way. | | | |
| QPR Finances released on 19:01 - Mar 1 with 1882 views | Rangersw12 |
| QPR Finances released on 14:17 - Mar 1 by NewBee |
Agree. For even if an Academy is producing good youngsters, with the average tenure of a Championship manager now being less than a year, why would any manager trust to wait for the two or three years (minimum) it would take for them to mature and start producing consistently? He'd almost certainly be sacked long before then.
On the other hand, any manager who does make a good start at a club, whether by playing youth or not, is always liable to have an eye on the main chance and leave for a bigger club after a season or two while his stock is still high. (M-c-a-l B-a-e?)
Two notable examples of this are Mourinho and Conte, who both had access to just about the best Academy in England while at Chelsea, but basically ignored their youngsters, demanding the club signed ready-made players instead.
Which means that the only way round this is for club owners to have a clear, long term commitment to youth, including also developing their internal coaching staff, so that you only ever appoint interchangeable Head Coaches (not managers), who know that they must work with who they are given.
I'd wager that Warburton refused to follow this model - he rejected it at Bees, after all - this being the real reason for his departure.
While I'm not sure about Ainsworth's appointment, either. Otoh he was at WWFC for a long and stable period; oto he doesn't seem to have employed the type of football you'd imagine QPR's youngsters have been schooled in.
More like pressing the big red "Emergency!" button? [Post edited 1 Mar 2023 14:44]
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Christ you're a tedious prick, Yeah we get it Brentford are very well run 💤💤. Blue Peter Badge is in the post now fck off to your own site to moan about why you have United, Liverpool and Arsenal fans as season ticket holders | | | |
| QPR Finances released on 19:25 - Mar 1 with 1819 views | PunteR |
| QPR Finances released on 19:01 - Mar 1 by Rangersw12 |
Christ you're a tedious prick, Yeah we get it Brentford are very well run 💤💤. Blue Peter Badge is in the post now fck off to your own site to moan about why you have United, Liverpool and Arsenal fans as season ticket holders |
I was about to post something similar. Brentford mug trying to lord it. Just reeking of smugness.
Fak orf. |  |
| Occasional providers of half decent House music. |
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| QPR Finances released on 19:26 - Mar 1 with 1817 views | QPR_Jim |
Yeah, sounds about right to me, we knew we had gone for it a bit in the summer and then again in Jan.
I think the worrying thing currently is that for the outlay we've done financially, you'd expect us to have some sellable assets, not this current slop. If anything the squad is worth less than 2 years ago, how's that been allowed to happen? |  | | |
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