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Reading the Prince Philip thread and some suggesting a republic set me thinking. I was going to post this on that thread but decided to open a new one. I'm interested in the reasons of those that want a republic. Do they also want to get rid of the title "Head of State". If so then leave it to the Prime Minister and you have an argument. If we do carry on the HoS how is he or she appointed. Just nominated by someone or some group or elected. Lets forget the former. If elected surely they would want some power which then sifts how we are governed. When would they be elected, at a General Election or a fixed term. If no political power who would vote even the General Election gets poor turn outs. Where would they live, Buckingham Palace or some two up two down in Railway Cuttings. How much would the office cost more or less than the monarchy. Do people who want a republic just want it because they do not like the idea of a monarchy or have they given it more thought
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Republic or Monarchy on 13:17 - Apr 10 with 1967 views
We missed the chance in 1649 to be the Worlds first republic and have been bowing ever since. No one should bow to anyone else. Except possibly to Stan?
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Republic or Monarchy on 13:20 - Apr 10 with 1943 views
Republic or Monarchy on 13:14 - Apr 10 by distortR
The op was thoughtful, I'm not a fan of the monarchy but to many they have already seemingly been replaced by 'celebs' - talk about banality being news worthy. We killed god and replaced him with money. We seem to be killing nation and replacing with self. I see a pattern of things I may not be keen on being removed and replaced, but not for the better. We live in a time of illusion and quick thrills constantly moving on. I'm not sure we're in a place as a society where we are prepared to have a prolonged and intelligent debate about where we go from here - instead we put 10p on a plastic bag and continue regardless. Politics, particularly by people in opposition, increasingly seems to be about single issues, no-one has the time or energy or perhaps the know-how to join the dots. I include myself in this, too many times my politics has been from the lyric sheet (Spot the NMA line, lytham!) I was in Australia when they had a referendum on the monarchy - they voted to continue with it, anecdotally a major reason was the fear that what you replace it with, might be worse, as the op said. I've wrestled with that ever since, and have never really come to an answer. One more thing - in the wonderful book 'sapiens', the author puts a major part of humanities ability to succeed, to act collectively and maintain bonds, as our ability to create gods/flags/a common cause. what happens if we do away with all that?
Wow, everything I wanted to say but hadn't the intellect to do it. Thanks distort R.
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Republic or Monarchy on 13:25 - Apr 10 with 1922 views
I'm not sure you're reading that right. Yes I'm sure that fervent Royalists are genuinely upset and this may have increased their devotion. I'm also sure fervent Republicans (like me) are even more p!sssed off than usual with the royals over the excessive coverage. The key thing, which is the same in elections, is what are the middle ground thinking?
Good point.
"The opposite of love, after all, is not hate, but indifference."
I've long been anti-monarchy and would love to see it abolished along with the house of Lords. Becoming a republic where people vote for a president and an upper house rather than have them imposed, would obviously be a more democratic way of running the country.
Having said that, I think an independent Scotland and a united Ireland is likely to happen before the monarchy is replaced. That could make an already inward looking England even more insular, with Wales reluctantly having to tag along, and probably more resistant to further change.
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Republic or Monarchy on 13:43 - Apr 10 with 1860 views
Republic or Monarchy on 12:40 - Apr 10 by Antti_Heinola
I'm surprised you're surprised. I think it might be different when the Queen goes, but I don't think the country at large has much of an opinion about Philip. You'd have to be 40 just to have been alive when he was 60. To most people he's just a very old tall man who for some reason was still allowed to drive at 98 years old and stnds next to the Queen a lot. Netflix likely a big winner last night I expect! Unless everyone was watching Watford v Reading?
I was just basing it on anecdotal evidence, Antti. Glad to be educated.
For the record, I'm not a fan of Monarchies.
"The opposite of love, after all, is not hate, but indifference."
Republic or Monarchy on 12:08 - Apr 10 by BazzaInTheLoft
Like almost every topic, it’s deeply divided amongst age lines.
Changing attitudes on monarchy, democracy, equality, and political parties will only hasten when we have reform on media and education.
There are massive campaigns to have alternative British history like the Peasants revolt, Diggers, Chartists, and Tolpuddle taught in the curriculum. Can’t come soon enough in my opinion.
That and the rise of independent media will bring about change I am sure.
[Post edited 10 Apr 2021 12:10]
During the '60's I studied the Chartists, Peterloo & Tolpuddle for "O" Level & for a while I could have told you all about them. I now can't recall much! I did visit Tolpuddle a few years ago & that brought back memories.
I revere all of the individuals involved, as I do the public of Prague for their peace stance in the spring of 1968.
[Post edited 10 Apr 2021 13:59]
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Republic or Monarchy on 13:52 - Apr 10 with 1808 views
Republic or Monarchy on 13:04 - Apr 10 by BazzaInTheLoft
Great news. I stand corrected. Wasn’t around when I was in school during the 80s and 90s that’s for sure.
Perhaps that’s why a lot of young people now are rejecting the major parties and monarchy and are pulling down slaver statues. Who knows.
Perhaps this is why we won't ever get a statue of Stan Bowles Because some gobshite will come along claiming we're promoting misogyny/gambling/smoking/whatever And pull the thing down Who knows.
"Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius
Sooner or later this country needs to move on. We're not an imperial power any more, we're a medium to big European country (whether people like this reality or not, it is reality). To do this we really need to get rid of a lot of the 'traditions' that are holding us back. The Royal family is one of them.
If it was up to me, we'd have proportional representation, an elected second chamber and we'd remove all hereditary titles - not just the royals but the aristocracy as well. I'd update the honours system so it was transparent, so it wasn't given for political favours and had no mention of empire. I'd also amend the law around media ownership, to try and ensure that the press is obliged to tell the truth, whilst allowing them to remain partisan.
As for Head of State, I guess we need it. There has to be checks and balances on the Govt. This is where it gets tricky though - we're consistently told the Queen has no actual powers and is completely impartial. If this is the case, how can she possibly be acting as a check? If she really has no power, and we're happy for the Head of State to merely be a ceremonial position, then this person could just be appointed. Of course, it would have to be a robust process to ensure that it doesn't just become a political appointment, but it could work. If we want the Head of State to have actual power, then it should be an elected position. Either way, I sincerely hope that something happens in my lifetime (I won't be holding my breath) as living in this country sometimes feels like being suffocated by history.
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Republic or Monarchy on 13:59 - Apr 10 with 1780 views
During the '60's I studied the Chartists, Peterloo & Tolpuddle for "O" Level & for a while I could have told you all about them. I now can't recall much! I did visit Tolpuddle a few years ago & that brought back memories.
I revere all of the individuals involved, as I do the public of Prague for their peace stance in the spring of 1968.
[Post edited 10 Apr 2021 13:59]
I think it must be a generational thing.
Genuinely didn’t get taught a stitch about any trade Union movement when I was at school. It was mostly Tudors, industrial Revolution minus the Luddites, and WWII and Churchill. Nothing on foundation of welfare state etc. Child of Thatcher I guess.
The Tolpuddle festival is amazing and can’t recommend enough.
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Republic or Monarchy on 14:01 - Apr 10 with 1769 views
Republic or Monarchy on 13:52 - Apr 10 by SheffieldHoop
Perhaps this is why we won't ever get a statue of Stan Bowles Because some gobshite will come along claiming we're promoting misogyny/gambling/smoking/whatever And pull the thing down Who knows.
Bit over the top I think but glad you are back posting.
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Republic or Monarchy on 14:06 - Apr 10 with 1751 views
Republic or Monarchy on 13:57 - Apr 10 by theselector
Sooner or later this country needs to move on. We're not an imperial power any more, we're a medium to big European country (whether people like this reality or not, it is reality). To do this we really need to get rid of a lot of the 'traditions' that are holding us back. The Royal family is one of them.
If it was up to me, we'd have proportional representation, an elected second chamber and we'd remove all hereditary titles - not just the royals but the aristocracy as well. I'd update the honours system so it was transparent, so it wasn't given for political favours and had no mention of empire. I'd also amend the law around media ownership, to try and ensure that the press is obliged to tell the truth, whilst allowing them to remain partisan.
As for Head of State, I guess we need it. There has to be checks and balances on the Govt. This is where it gets tricky though - we're consistently told the Queen has no actual powers and is completely impartial. If this is the case, how can she possibly be acting as a check? If she really has no power, and we're happy for the Head of State to merely be a ceremonial position, then this person could just be appointed. Of course, it would have to be a robust process to ensure that it doesn't just become a political appointment, but it could work. If we want the Head of State to have actual power, then it should be an elected position. Either way, I sincerely hope that something happens in my lifetime (I won't be holding my breath) as living in this country sometimes feels like being suffocated by history.
isn't the house of lords suppose to act as the check on government? And if the same electorate who vote in the government vote in the second chamber, will it act to restrain said government? Do I support hereditary peers and peerages handed out to party donors? No.
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Republic or Monarchy on 14:11 - Apr 10 with 1730 views
Republic or Monarchy on 13:52 - Apr 10 by SheffieldHoop
Perhaps this is why we won't ever get a statue of Stan Bowles Because some gobshite will come along claiming we're promoting misogyny/gambling/smoking/whatever And pull the thing down Who knows.
Republic or Monarchy on 14:06 - Apr 10 by distortR
isn't the house of lords suppose to act as the check on government? And if the same electorate who vote in the government vote in the second chamber, will it act to restrain said government? Do I support hereditary peers and peerages handed out to party donors? No.
Then I guess it would have to be separate elections for the HoC and the second chamber - as happens in other countries.
Either way it would involve a complete overhaul of the electoral system. Not a small job, but the alternative is keeping with the current system. Forever.
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Republic or Monarchy on 14:12 - Apr 10 with 1727 views
Republic or Monarchy on 11:58 - Apr 10 by QPRSteve
Republic foe me all day long. Have the guillotine ready for the great day,
Pedantry alert:
I think your post is a contender for typo of the year. I do think you meant to say you are in favour of a republic but fat fingers syndrome - which I know well - has dealt you a cruel hand with the word "foe". I think you intended to type "for".
"Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1."
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Republic or Monarchy on 14:16 - Apr 10 with 1707 views
Republic or Monarchy on 14:11 - Apr 10 by theselector
Then I guess it would have to be separate elections for the HoC and the second chamber - as happens in other countries.
Either way it would involve a complete overhaul of the electoral system. Not a small job, but the alternative is keeping with the current system. Forever.
I get that, I just wonder, if the electorate is consistent, how much of a check the second chamber is? Or, if the electorate is consistent, then does it just mean that the public will get what the public wants? i have no answers! Edit to your second point - I'm not endorsing that, but again, we have to be careful what we ask for.
[Post edited 10 Apr 2021 14:21]
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Republic or Monarchy on 14:21 - Apr 10 with 1691 views
Republic or Monarchy on 13:17 - Apr 10 by SonofNorfolt
We missed the chance in 1649 to be the Worlds first republic and have been bowing ever since. No one should bow to anyone else. Except possibly to Stan?
In the spirit of historical pedantry... no we didn't. The Dutch Republic existed from 1588 (or 1581 if you count it from their declaration of independence). And no doubt there were other republics before that (Switzerland? the Roman Republic? )
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Republic or Monarchy on 14:23 - Apr 10 with 1676 views
Republic or Monarchy on 14:18 - Apr 10 by distortR
I get that, I just wonder, if the electorate is consistent, how much of a check the second chamber is? Or, if the electorate is consistent, then does it just mean that the public will get what the public wants? i have no answers! Edit to your second point - I'm not endorsing that, but again, we have to be careful what we ask for.
[Post edited 10 Apr 2021 14:21]
It's a valid question. In Ireland the Senate is the second house and I'm not entirely sure that it's sufficiently different in character to the first house, the Dáil, to be much of a check. Generally, if a Bill passes one House we expect it to pass both.
The Irish President is elected and has real powers to refer Bills to the Council of State if she/he has any doubts or questions about their Constitutionality. He also has two dogs which are bigger then him, so, y'know, that's nice.
"The opposite of love, after all, is not hate, but indifference."
Republic or Monarchy on 14:21 - Apr 10 by W12Mikey
In the spirit of historical pedantry... no we didn't. The Dutch Republic existed from 1588 (or 1581 if you count it from their declaration of independence). And no doubt there were other republics before that (Switzerland? the Roman Republic? )
The Athenian Republic might have first claim! What's interesting about historical republics is that they were generally shortlived, given a tendency to division and autocracy. They tended to work best in small homogenous states rather than larger entities with multiple faiths and language groups competing for dominance, though their small size made them vulnerable to attack by larger neighbours who weren't republics. I think the Venetian Republic was the most enduring, whose emphasis on equality and rights for its members was not reflected in how it treated its overseas subjects.
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Republic or Monarchy on 14:58 - Apr 10 with 1620 views
Republic or Monarchy on 14:23 - Apr 10 by BrianMcCarthy
It's a valid question. In Ireland the Senate is the second house and I'm not entirely sure that it's sufficiently different in character to the first house, the Dáil, to be much of a check. Generally, if a Bill passes one House we expect it to pass both.
The Irish President is elected and has real powers to refer Bills to the Council of State if she/he has any doubts or questions about their Constitutionality. He also has two dogs which are bigger then him, so, y'know, that's nice.
Brian - as you've lived in UK and Ireland, which system do you think is more representational? and which one works best?
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Republic or Monarchy on 15:59 - Apr 10 with 1545 views
Republic or Monarchy on 14:58 - Apr 10 by theselector
Brian - as you've lived in UK and Ireland, which system do you think is more representational? and which one works best?
Well, the Irish system is clearly more representational as both of our houses are elected (with the exception of 11 Senators appointed by the Taoiseach/Prime Minister). Also the Irish Head of State is elected by the citizens.
As to which works best, I would say the Irish one is better as it is fairer and far more democratic, with the proviso and reservation that the Irish version of PR has produced lots of coalitions.
"The opposite of love, after all, is not hate, but indifference."
Id probably keep the monarchy. I think abolishing it has a superficial appeal, a bit like brexit and Scottish independence. We subsidise Scotland, and theyvrepay us with gordon brown, Alastair darling and now nicola sturgeon and anneeelise dodds. But how would it work inn practice? Same with brexit and i think the monarchy. How is it going to work in reality? My hunch is it just isnt worth it
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Republic or Monarchy on 16:15 - Apr 10 with 1514 views
Republic or Monarchy on 15:59 - Apr 10 by BrianMcCarthy
Well, the Irish system is clearly more representational as both of our houses are elected (with the exception of 11 Senators appointed by the Taoiseach/Prime Minister). Also the Irish Head of State is elected by the citizens.
As to which works best, I would say the Irish one is better as it is fairer and far more democratic, with the proviso and reservation that the Irish version of PR has produced lots of coalitions.
It's settled then. We're dismantling the system and remaking it in the most democratic way possible. . . As soon as Rangers get past the Wendies. . . In fact, probably best to wait until tomorrow, as it's a bit grim outside.
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Republic or Monarchy on 16:16 - Apr 10 with 1509 views
Republic or Monarchy on 16:15 - Apr 10 by theselector
It's settled then. We're dismantling the system and remaking it in the most democratic way possible. . . As soon as Rangers get past the Wendies. . . In fact, probably best to wait until tomorrow, as it's a bit grim outside.
You'll have to get your own President and dogs though. We're keeping ours.
"The opposite of love, after all, is not hate, but indifference."
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Pedantry alert: 
