| No subject 18:55 - May 11 with 24378 views | nice_to_michu |
[Post edited 15 Nov 2017 11:47]
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| Plaid do a deal with UKIP and the Tories on 00:19 - May 14 with 2428 views | DJack |
| Plaid do a deal with UKIP and the Tories on 00:14 - May 14 by trampie |
Leanne Wood has no control over how other parties vote, Plaid putting up Wood for FM is reasonable enough and if other parties then vote for Wood that is their choice. |
"Plaid putting up Wood for FM is reasonable enough" - Maybe,maybe.
"if other parties then vote for Wood that is their choice" - or is it just an attempt to undermine/create division and prosper in the subsequent "discussions".
For me, you are either very naive or very dis ingenious. |  |
| It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan |
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| Plaid do a deal with UKIP and the Tories on 00:39 - May 14 with 2412 views | trampie |
The other parties had had enough of Labour leadership after 17 years. |  |
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| Plaid do a deal with UKIP and the Tories on 00:50 - May 14 with 2404 views | DJack |
| Plaid do a deal with UKIP and the Tories on 00:39 - May 14 by trampie |
The other parties had had enough of Labour leadership after 17 years. |
...but the voting public disagree. Guess what! | |
| It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan |
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| Plaid do a deal with UKIP and the Tories on 00:55 - May 14 with 2398 views | nice_to_michu |
| Plaid do a deal with UKIP and the Tories on 23:49 - May 13 by Private_Partz |
Need to expand upon that. Not sure what you are on about.
However I will add that if talks have taken place with say UKIP over and above the First Leader vote ( as Labour have apparently done btw) then it is up to those politicians to expose Leanne Wood as a liar. They have enough opportunity as she and her party have said it often enough, that a coalition with UKIP and the Tories was never on the cards.
Welsh Labour's decline continues and unfortunately Carwyn's arrogance and complacency in his failure to recognise he is in a minority government has caused this issue.
I hope for him and the Party's sake that they up their game. They got lucky in the elections this time but if the decline continues at the current rate them it will not be pretty in 5 years time. |
Ok, I'm not sure if you saw exiledclaseboy's excellent post, accurately summing up the events of the past few days, but here it is
- Welsh Conservative leader Andrew RT Davies told BBC Radio Wales on Friday there had been three sets of "substantial" talks involving two AMs from his party and two AMs from Plaid.
"We have an historic opportunity to break the mould in Wales... but this will only be possible with clear enthusiasm from others," Tory leader Andrew RT Davies said.
"Should such ambition not be shown... Welsh Conservatives will not be minded to repeat our action from Wednesday's vote."
UKIP assembly group leader Neil Hamilton said the average Plaid voter did not back the party to see it "effectively" go into coalition with Labour.
"We are all in favour of talks, but minority parties should stick together against Labour arrogance," he said.
On Thursday, some UKIP AMs suggested they could switch their votes if parts of their manifesto were made law, although Mr Gething said for Labour: "That is not something we would consider."
Anyone thinking that Plaid wouldn't have sold what's left of its soul to form some kind of hideous coalition government with their supposed ideological opposites in the Tories and UKIP is clearly deluding themselves. It's clear what was attempted earlier this week and if Kirsty Williams hadn't put a stop to it we'd be typing on this thread while being governed by a horrendous mishmash of nats and Tories with no legitimacy whatsoever.
Other than getting hold of recordings of the conversations between Plaid and UKIP/Tories, what else can be done to prove it? You have all the conspirators stating they talked, you have UKIP stating that their votes as a group come at a price, what else do you want?
And this thing of Plaid supporters telling Carwyn Jones needing to "recognise" that Labour is in a minority government is so bizarre. Of course he recognises it, just because he and the Labour Group are content to govern as a minority doesn't detract from that realisation. The SNP have governed as a minority too. Many countries who have different versions of proportional representation electoral systems govern as a minority. Are they all arrogant?
As was pointed out (by Tramlie of all characters), Plaid had a higher vote percentage in 1999 than 2016. Yet Leanne Wood keeps on about how everything is different now and suddenly Plaid deserve to have significant influence of the legislative agenda even though they only have one-fifth of the seats.
Lastly, if you think the trend of Labour's vote share in Wales going down means that things will not be "pretty" in five years time, I think you're going to be disappointed. Labour's recent decline is mirrored almost perfectly with the rise of UKIP. Although some of the UKIP vote will never come back to Labour, a significant amount will. The referendum that UKIP have campaigned for used as an effective election tool is coming up this summer, and once it happens you will almost certainly see a sharp decline in UKIP support very soon after. UKIP in Wales has been taking votes from Labour at a much higher rate than other parties. | | | |
| Plaid do a deal with UKIP and the Tories on 08:19 - May 14 with 2360 views | trampie |
The events of the last few days are Labour has been talking with UKIP and the Conservatives. | |
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| Plaid do a deal with UKIP and the Tories on 08:55 - May 14 with 2319 views | acejack3065 |
| Plaid do a deal with UKIP and the Tories on 08:19 - May 14 by trampie |
The events of the last few days are Labour has been talking with UKIP and the Conservatives. |
You do the nationalist cause no favours by periodically denying facts. I feel Plaid would have much better electoral success if they weren't weighed down by blinkered, conspiracy motivated nats like yourself. |  | | |
| Plaid do a deal with UKIP and the Tories on 09:03 - May 14 with 2305 views | trampie |
| Plaid do a deal with UKIP and the Tories on 08:55 - May 14 by acejack3065 |
You do the nationalist cause no favours by periodically denying facts. I feel Plaid would have much better electoral success if they weren't weighed down by blinkered, conspiracy motivated nats like yourself. |
I'm not denying facts, others on here deny facts not me, Labour have been talking to the Conservative leader, I have seen direct quotes from the Conservative leader in the press saying so, he has spoken to them on the phone and face to face, also I have seen a UKIP AM on the tv saying he has talked to Labour. [Post edited 14 May 2016 9:10]
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| Plaid do a deal with UKIP and the Tories on 09:12 - May 14 with 2287 views | Cottsy |
| Plaid do a deal with UKIP and the Tories on 08:19 - May 14 by trampie |
The events of the last few days are Labour has been talking with UKIP and the Conservatives. |
Really Trampie? Lets recap.
Wednesday: Plaid, UKIP and Tories take coordinated action in the Senedd to elect Leanne Wood as First Minister. UKIP tells press they held talks with Plaid on Monday.
Thursday: Labour says they are willing to hold talks with Plaid. Plaid say they only informed parties they were nominating Leanne Wood. 2 UKIP members offer Carwyn Jones support if they can influence policy Labour announce that they are not willing to speak to UKIP
Friday: Andrew RT Davies tells of 3 rounds of substantial talks between 2 Plaid AMs and 2 Tory AMs that led to actions on Wednesday. Labour and Plaid agree that a First Minister will be elected next week but talks will continue on Monday.
So who has been talking to UKIP and the Tories? I'll give you a clue the answer is somewhere in those words above. |  |
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| Plaid do a deal with UKIP and the Tories on 09:15 - May 14 with 2284 views | acejack3065 |
| Plaid do a deal with UKIP and the Tories on 09:03 - May 14 by trampie |
I'm not denying facts, others on here deny facts not me, Labour have been talking to the Conservative leader, I have seen direct quotes from the Conservative leader in the press saying so, he has spoken to them on the phone and face to face, also I have seen a UKIP AM on the tv saying he has talked to Labour. [Post edited 14 May 2016 9:10]
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We're these talks held before or after the talks Plaid had when they tried to make Leanne Wood First Minister by forming a coalition with the Tories and UKIP? | | | |
| Plaid do a deal with UKIP and the Tories on 09:21 - May 14 with 2276 views | Private_Partz |
| Plaid do a deal with UKIP and the Tories on 00:55 - May 14 by nice_to_michu |
Ok, I'm not sure if you saw exiledclaseboy's excellent post, accurately summing up the events of the past few days, but here it is
- Welsh Conservative leader Andrew RT Davies told BBC Radio Wales on Friday there had been three sets of "substantial" talks involving two AMs from his party and two AMs from Plaid.
"We have an historic opportunity to break the mould in Wales... but this will only be possible with clear enthusiasm from others," Tory leader Andrew RT Davies said.
"Should such ambition not be shown... Welsh Conservatives will not be minded to repeat our action from Wednesday's vote."
UKIP assembly group leader Neil Hamilton said the average Plaid voter did not back the party to see it "effectively" go into coalition with Labour.
"We are all in favour of talks, but minority parties should stick together against Labour arrogance," he said.
On Thursday, some UKIP AMs suggested they could switch their votes if parts of their manifesto were made law, although Mr Gething said for Labour: "That is not something we would consider."
Anyone thinking that Plaid wouldn't have sold what's left of its soul to form some kind of hideous coalition government with their supposed ideological opposites in the Tories and UKIP is clearly deluding themselves. It's clear what was attempted earlier this week and if Kirsty Williams hadn't put a stop to it we'd be typing on this thread while being governed by a horrendous mishmash of nats and Tories with no legitimacy whatsoever.
Other than getting hold of recordings of the conversations between Plaid and UKIP/Tories, what else can be done to prove it? You have all the conspirators stating they talked, you have UKIP stating that their votes as a group come at a price, what else do you want?
And this thing of Plaid supporters telling Carwyn Jones needing to "recognise" that Labour is in a minority government is so bizarre. Of course he recognises it, just because he and the Labour Group are content to govern as a minority doesn't detract from that realisation. The SNP have governed as a minority too. Many countries who have different versions of proportional representation electoral systems govern as a minority. Are they all arrogant?
As was pointed out (by Tramlie of all characters), Plaid had a higher vote percentage in 1999 than 2016. Yet Leanne Wood keeps on about how everything is different now and suddenly Plaid deserve to have significant influence of the legislative agenda even though they only have one-fifth of the seats.
Lastly, if you think the trend of Labour's vote share in Wales going down means that things will not be "pretty" in five years time, I think you're going to be disappointed. Labour's recent decline is mirrored almost perfectly with the rise of UKIP. Although some of the UKIP vote will never come back to Labour, a significant amount will. The referendum that UKIP have campaigned for used as an effective election tool is coming up this summer, and once it happens you will almost certainly see a sharp decline in UKIP support very soon after. UKIP in Wales has been taking votes from Labour at a much higher rate than other parties. |
You can quote Tories and UKIP as much as you like and there will be an equal if not more contrasting opinions from Plaid.
If we were on a verge of a minority government of Plaid/UKIP/ Tory government we would have been faced with policies such as:
Leaving Europe,
Fracking,
Nuclear Power as a priority
Increased austerity.
Grammar Schools.
Privatisation of Health and other Public Services.
Etc etc...
Policies such as this would have to have been agreed upon and at the very last discussed in some detail. If there is hard evidence of this rather than woolly interpretations from UKIP and the Tories then I would agree that Plaid will have been damaged. All of it would have to have been agreed in 48 hours and none of it written down, just verbal agreements. It is madness to think such a thing could get off the ground.
Despite Labour supporters, anti nationalists and the Cardiff based and biased press jumping on this story to discredit Wood and Plaid it has not done that much harm. A poll on WOL still shows very little difference in who should be First Minister out of Carwyn and Lianne. Admittedly the former has a slight lead.
Anyways relax. Your boys have another 5 years in charge but they had better start giving the rest of Wales some serious consideration or they will be in serious trouble come the next set of polls. [Post edited 14 May 2016 9:27]
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| You have mission in life to hold out your hand,
To help the other guy out,
Help your fellow man.
Stan Ridgway
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| Plaid do a deal with UKIP and the Tories on 09:25 - May 14 with 2271 views | trampie |
| Plaid do a deal with UKIP and the Tories on 09:15 - May 14 by acejack3065 |
We're these talks held before or after the talks Plaid had when they tried to make Leanne Wood First Minister by forming a coalition with the Tories and UKIP? |
Plaid would not form a coalition with UKIP or the Conservatives as Leanne Wood has recently said “Let me put on record, as long as I am leader of Plaid Cymru I will never do a deal which arrives at a coalition with UKIP or the Tories.”
Labour have form for teaming up with UKIP having formed an alliance with UKIP in Norwich, Labour are always in talks with UKIP and the Conservatives. | |
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| Plaid do a deal with UKIP and the Tories on 09:34 - May 14 with 2255 views | acejack3065 |
| Plaid do a deal with UKIP and the Tories on 09:25 - May 14 by trampie |
Plaid would not form a coalition with UKIP or the Conservatives as Leanne Wood has recently said “Let me put on record, as long as I am leader of Plaid Cymru I will never do a deal which arrives at a coalition with UKIP or the Tories.”
Labour have form for teaming up with UKIP having formed an alliance with UKIP in Norwich, Labour are always in talks with UKIP and the Conservatives. |
So you are denying outright facts then. | | | |
| Plaid do a deal with UKIP and the Tories on 09:48 - May 14 with 2246 views | trampie |
| Plaid do a deal with UKIP and the Tories on 09:34 - May 14 by acejack3065 |
So you are denying outright facts then. |
No you are. | |
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| Plaid do a deal with UKIP and the Tories on 11:10 - May 14 with 2214 views | Kilkennyjack |
In short, old Carwyn does not like it up him.
I would trust both mrs wood and kirsty far more than Carwyns mob.
Labour need some vibrant new young leadership in wales. It looks and feels tired.
Doing the same old stuff will bring the same old results. Hello - taxi for Carwyn ? |  |
| Beware of the Risen People
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| Plaid do a deal with UKIP and the Tories on 18:38 - May 15 with 2123 views | Private_Partz |
| Plaid do a deal with UKIP and the Tories on 11:10 - May 14 by Kilkennyjack |
In short, old Carwyn does not like it up him.
I would trust both mrs wood and kirsty far more than Carwyns mob.
Labour need some vibrant new young leadership in wales. It looks and feels tired.
Doing the same old stuff will bring the same old results. Hello - taxi for Carwyn ? |
Indeed. All this Welsh Labour crying foul and their supporters (including the anti nationalists) wringing their hands over the possibility of a Plaid / Tory / UKIP alliance.
RTD openly admitted they would have voted for Bagpuss as Leader to get at Carwyn to knock him down a peg or two.
He knows now he has to up his game. Assuming of course he gets the nod. | |
| You have mission in life to hold out your hand,
To help the other guy out,
Help your fellow man.
Stan Ridgway
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| Plaid do a deal with UKIP and the Tories on 19:41 - May 15 with 2098 views | nice_to_michu |
| Plaid do a deal with UKIP and the Tories on 18:38 - May 15 by Private_Partz |
Indeed. All this Welsh Labour crying foul and their supporters (including the anti nationalists) wringing their hands over the possibility of a Plaid / Tory / UKIP alliance.
RTD openly admitted they would have voted for Bagpuss as Leader to get at Carwyn to knock him down a peg or two.
He knows now he has to up his game. Assuming of course he gets the nod. |
Yeh but they didn't did they. They all voted for Leanne Wood, who would've been leader had it not been for Kirsty Williams.
I fear you will never fully comprehend that, or accept what that means.
You better believe that Labour are happy they unmasked Plaid for who they really are. And you better believe it will be on every election leaflet in the ear future.
If, as you say, this was all just to knock Carwyn Jones down a peg or two (which is ridiculous reasoning anyway but let's look past that), then how naive is Leanne Wood to think that this wouldn't look awful for Plaid?
Of course, what happened last week was an attempt at a coup by Plaid with UKIP and the Tories. But, let's say for arguments sake that it wasn't, then it was pretty obvious how this would get played in the media (cue the calls that the Cardiff-based media are pro-Labour). | | | |
| Plaid do a deal with UKIP and the Tories on 20:19 - May 15 with 2081 views | Private_Partz |
| Plaid do a deal with UKIP and the Tories on 19:41 - May 15 by nice_to_michu |
Yeh but they didn't did they. They all voted for Leanne Wood, who would've been leader had it not been for Kirsty Williams.
I fear you will never fully comprehend that, or accept what that means.
You better believe that Labour are happy they unmasked Plaid for who they really are. And you better believe it will be on every election leaflet in the ear future.
If, as you say, this was all just to knock Carwyn Jones down a peg or two (which is ridiculous reasoning anyway but let's look past that), then how naive is Leanne Wood to think that this wouldn't look awful for Plaid?
Of course, what happened last week was an attempt at a coup by Plaid with UKIP and the Tories. But, let's say for arguments sake that it wasn't, then it was pretty obvious how this would get played in the media (cue the calls that the Cardiff-based media are pro-Labour). |
Better tell RTD that then. The cover is blown. They took Carwyn down a peg or two as well. Let's see what concessions Plaid can get. It is reported as being abandonment of the black route, voting concessions and the return of an investment group like the WDA. Any of these would be good business from the off. All three would be lovely. My fav is the WDA. Of course it might be none of those but even so it's a warning shot across the bows which is all I gave wanted from the off. This in the hope that the party will be woken from its Cardiff centric complacent slumbers.
I hope in 5 years time the Swansea City Deal and metro, the North Wales deal and metro plus massive transport infrastructure measures will be in place so I can vote for Welsh Labour with a smile on my face. I doubt it will happen though as I fear Carwyn and the career politicians below him will still be there and the decline of the party in Wales will continue. | |
| You have mission in life to hold out your hand,
To help the other guy out,
Help your fellow man.
Stan Ridgway
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| Plaid do a deal with UKIP and the Tories on 20:34 - May 15 with 2065 views | exiledclaseboy |
If the sole libdem had voted the other way Leamne Wood would be first minister now. That is a simple, stone cold fact. Undeniable.
Given the assembly arithmetic and the votes that would have got her the job, what do we think her government would have looked like? Who would have made up the cabinet? The Welsh government cabinet has 14 ministers and deputy ministers. Plaid has 12 AMs.
Plaid fans who think that a Wood led government wouldn't have included Tories and UKIPers are deluding themselves or lying. [Post edited 15 May 2016 20:37]
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| Plaid do a deal with UKIP and the Tories on 20:59 - May 15 with 2045 views | Dr_Winston |
| Plaid do a deal with UKIP and the Tories on 20:34 - May 15 by exiledclaseboy |
If the sole libdem had voted the other way Leamne Wood would be first minister now. That is a simple, stone cold fact. Undeniable.
Given the assembly arithmetic and the votes that would have got her the job, what do we think her government would have looked like? Who would have made up the cabinet? The Welsh government cabinet has 14 ministers and deputy ministers. Plaid has 12 AMs.
Plaid fans who think that a Wood led government wouldn't have included Tories and UKIPers are deluding themselves or lying. [Post edited 15 May 2016 20:37]
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Isn't delusion the default setting of your average Plaid voter? |  |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| Plaid do a deal with UKIP and the Tories on 09:14 - May 16 with 1991 views | Private_Partz |
| Plaid do a deal with UKIP and the Tories on 20:34 - May 15 by exiledclaseboy |
If the sole libdem had voted the other way Leamne Wood would be first minister now. That is a simple, stone cold fact. Undeniable.
Given the assembly arithmetic and the votes that would have got her the job, what do we think her government would have looked like? Who would have made up the cabinet? The Welsh government cabinet has 14 ministers and deputy ministers. Plaid has 12 AMs.
Plaid fans who think that a Wood led government wouldn't have included Tories and UKIPers are deluding themselves or lying. [Post edited 15 May 2016 20:37]
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A weak stick to beat Plaid with. It would have been a hideous scenario that would never have worked. Made even more hideous if Bagpuss had been in charge. ;-)
If Plaid can get some concessions out of Welsh Labour it will be business well done. [Post edited 16 May 2016 9:16]
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| You have mission in life to hold out your hand,
To help the other guy out,
Help your fellow man.
Stan Ridgway
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| Plaid do a deal with UKIP and the Tories on 09:16 - May 16 with 1986 views | Private_Partz |
| Plaid do a deal with UKIP and the Tories on 20:59 - May 15 by Dr_Winston |
Isn't delusion the default setting of your average Plaid voter? |
Well I voted for them to give Welsh Labour a kick up the ass and it seems that already has happened. I live in hope anyway. [Post edited 16 May 2016 9:17]
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| You have mission in life to hold out your hand,
To help the other guy out,
Help your fellow man.
Stan Ridgway
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| Plaid do a deal with UKIP and the Tories on 09:22 - May 16 with 1975 views | blueytheblue |
I would have voted but there didn't seem to be an option to abolish the Assembly. |  |
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| Plaid do a deal with UKIP and the Tories on 09:35 - May 16 with 1962 views | exiledclaseboy |
| Plaid do a deal with UKIP and the Tories on 09:14 - May 16 by Private_Partz |
A weak stick to beat Plaid with. It would have been a hideous scenario that would never have worked. Made even more hideous if Bagpuss had been in charge. ;-)
If Plaid can get some concessions out of Welsh Labour it will be business well done. [Post edited 16 May 2016 9:16]
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A weak stick? Ok, let me ask a couple of questions. If Kirsty Williams hadn't put a stop to it, would Leanne Wood be first minister? Assuming the answer to that is yes (which it has to be seeing as it's a fact) how do you think her government would ha a been made up?
Whether it would have worked is another matter. | |
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| Plaid do a deal with UKIP and the Tories on 09:47 - May 16 with 1953 views | blueytheblue |
Labour, like it or not, had more votes and seats. They should have had the first opportunity to try to get the leader issue arranged; if that failed then the opposition could try.
After all they had more of a mandate than Plaid or anyone else. | |
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| Plaid do a deal with UKIP and the Tories on 18:14 - May 16 with 1895 views | Private_Partz |
| Plaid do a deal with UKIP and the Tories on 09:35 - May 16 by exiledclaseboy |
A weak stick? Ok, let me ask a couple of questions. If Kirsty Williams hadn't put a stop to it, would Leanne Wood be first minister? Assuming the answer to that is yes (which it has to be seeing as it's a fact) how do you think her government would ha a been made up?
Whether it would have worked is another matter. |
Because it would not have worked it was a weak stick. I suspect they were all surprised at how unpopular Carwyn actually is. It's not done Kirsty any harm. Word is she will get a post in the Govt in she wants to play ball. Don't get me wrong. I like her but I think the Lib Dems have had enough of coalitions. [Post edited 16 May 2016 18:16]
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| You have mission in life to hold out your hand,
To help the other guy out,
Help your fellow man.
Stan Ridgway
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