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Something I ponder? In the same way people refuse to openly admit they vote or have voted Tory? Are Brexiter's exactly the same when it comes to hiding voting intent for fear of being branded (IMO wrong in a lot of cases) little Englander's, xenophobic or racist?
I wonder if there could be a major shock on the cards, because the Brexit vote could be vastly stronger than what many people and political pundits had ever possibly imagined?
Argus!
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 18:32 - Jun 6 with 2505 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 17:51 - Jun 6 by Wingstandwood
Something I ponder? In the same way people refuse to openly admit they vote or have voted Tory? Are Brexiter's exactly the same when it comes to hiding voting intent for fear of being branded (IMO wrong in a lot of cases) little Englander's, xenophobic or racist?
I wonder if there could be a major shock on the cards, because the Brexit vote could be vastly stronger than what many people and political pundits had ever possibly imagined?
It does seem to be the case that to vote Brexit, no matter your reasons, leads you to be painted a racist, xenophobic, goggle eyed loon.
Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back.
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 18:40 - Jun 6 with 2487 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 17:51 - Jun 6 by Wingstandwood
Something I ponder? In the same way people refuse to openly admit they vote or have voted Tory? Are Brexiter's exactly the same when it comes to hiding voting intent for fear of being branded (IMO wrong in a lot of cases) little Englander's, xenophobic or racist?
I wonder if there could be a major shock on the cards, because the Brexit vote could be vastly stronger than what many people and political pundits had ever possibly imagined?
I think it's the other way.
Vote leave types are far more vocal because it's more exciting to go for something different than the status quo.
I predict 58% to stay in at the final vote.
My father voted labour and his father voted labour and his father voted labour so I vote labour
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 20:03 - Jun 6 with 2435 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 19:17 - Jun 6 by donkeylabour
I think it's the other way.
Vote leave types are far more vocal because it's more exciting to go for something different than the status quo.
I predict 58% to stay in at the final vote.
I agree with this. The most vocal public opinion is firmly behind Brexit. If there's to be a "shy" vote in this referendum it'll be for remain. But I think the vote will be much tighter than that.
Remain With or Leave the EU on 20:03 - Jun 6 by exiledclaseboy
I agree with this. The most vocal public opinion is firmly behind Brexit. If there's to be a "shy" vote in this referendum it'll be for remain. But I think the vote will be much tighter than that.
[Post edited 6 Jun 2016 20:07]
How can you prove "The most vocal public opinion is firmly behind Brexit".. You're a f*cking pimple.
The awkward moment when a Welsh Club become the Champions of England.. shh
The Swansea Way.. To upset the odds.
Remain With or Leave the EU on 20:09 - Jun 6 by skippyjack
How can you prove "The most vocal public opinion is firmly behind Brexit".. You're a f*cking pimple.
I can't, I was expressing an opinion. Not quite sure why you feel the need to insult people all the time. If you can't cope with a forum like this then you probably shouldn't be using one.
Remain With or Leave the EU on 20:11 - Jun 6 by exiledclaseboy
I can't, I was expressing an opinion. Not quite sure why you feel the need to insult people all the time. If you can't cope with a forum like this then you probably shouldn't be using one.
Kind of ironic that Skippy posts a thread about how Muhammad Ali was just a violent thug, but then goes on to speak to everyone on here with all this aggressiveness.
A lot of anger building in that guy, he needs to get a hobby, or a girlfriend/boyfriend, something to take his mind off of how scary the outside world is.
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 21:33 - Jun 6 with 2379 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 18:32 - Jun 6 by Dr_Winston
It does seem to be the case that to vote Brexit, no matter your reasons, leads you to be painted a racist, xenophobic, goggle eyed loon.
I'm no racist and I'm all for immigration as long as it's the right people coming here. EG people with skills who will integrate and embrace th country and its traditions but come June 23rd I will be voting to leave
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 22:27 - Jun 6 with 2348 views
Roger Bootle's argument here is that the economic debate about Brexit has so far concentrated heavily on the single market, and the prospective loss of export business caused by exclusion from it. He then goes on to say:
"More importantly, perhaps, there is a widespread misconception that the gains from trade derive only from exports. They don’t. They derive from both exports and imports.
If we were to leave the EU, then we would have the ability to stop levying the EU’s external tariff on the imports that we buy from the rest of the world. This would lower prices in the shops."
"If the EU continues to grow very slowly, as I suspect, while the rest of the world grows much faster, then the EU’s share in our trade will continue to fall. This will alter the balance between the advantages of tariff-free access to the single market and the losses from having to impose the EU’s common external tariff on our imports from the rest of the world.
You haven’t got to take my word that there isn’t an irresistible economic case for remaining in the EU. Ashoka Mody has given a similar verdict. What makes his view so interesting is his provenance. He was formerly deputy director of the International Monetary Fund’s European and research departments. He recently said: “The official consensus on the economic costs of Brexit has crossed the line into group-think.
A numerical illusion is masquerading as a 'fact’. And when those in authority distort facts, they also subvert the cause of democracy.”
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 23:08 - Jun 6 with 2324 views
Roger Bootle's argument here is that the economic debate about Brexit has so far concentrated heavily on the single market, and the prospective loss of export business caused by exclusion from it. He then goes on to say:
"More importantly, perhaps, there is a widespread misconception that the gains from trade derive only from exports. They don’t. They derive from both exports and imports.
If we were to leave the EU, then we would have the ability to stop levying the EU’s external tariff on the imports that we buy from the rest of the world. This would lower prices in the shops."
"If the EU continues to grow very slowly, as I suspect, while the rest of the world grows much faster, then the EU’s share in our trade will continue to fall. This will alter the balance between the advantages of tariff-free access to the single market and the losses from having to impose the EU’s common external tariff on our imports from the rest of the world.
You haven’t got to take my word that there isn’t an irresistible economic case for remaining in the EU. Ashoka Mody has given a similar verdict. What makes his view so interesting is his provenance. He was formerly deputy director of the International Monetary Fund’s European and research departments. He recently said: “The official consensus on the economic costs of Brexit has crossed the line into group-think.
A numerical illusion is masquerading as a 'fact’. And when those in authority distort facts, they also subvert the cause of democracy.”
Just spent the weekend In Milton Keynes. Got talking to three different groups of people.. locals, Londoners and a couple from Italy. The locals and Londoners were out, the argument was in a nut shell "bloody immigrants". You could argue till you were blue in the face about the economy going to hell in a hand basket, it didn't matter because of the "bloody immigrants". The Italians we hoping we would stay as they felt we were good for EU and keeping it together, They seemed genuinely afraid for Europe if we left.
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 23:35 - Jun 6 with 2295 views
One thing that doesn't seem to be discussed is 'Working tax credits'.
It seems working tax credits are one of the big attractions of EU immigrants coming into the UK - in that they can take a relatively low paid job - but then get topped up with Working tax credits, hence then obtain higher standard of living than in their own country.
As UK offers working tax credits to its own citizens - it has to offer them to EU citizens. Cameron tried to renegotiate this but failed.
Osborne would ideally have liked to abolish working tax credits but faced a revolt and he knew he would have been defeated on this, with current wafer thin majority.
If Osborne could have abolished 'working tax credits' in UK - then EU immigration to the UK would have been much less attractive.
Also maybe other countries in the EU should have conceded this to Cameron in the recent negotiations - as immigration issue may tip scales in favour of Brexit camp.
(Kerouac please correct me if my reading of this is wrong)
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 00:11 - Jun 7 with 2269 views
How about we fought 2 world wars to protect the UK from being stripped of its control and maybe just maybe we'd like to make some decisions of our own before checking with Brussels, Sepp Blatter, or the fackin Eurovision Song Contest committee?
They all hate us.
It's just the internet, init.
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 00:36 - Jun 7 with 2265 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 23:35 - Jun 6 by Nookiejack
One thing that doesn't seem to be discussed is 'Working tax credits'.
It seems working tax credits are one of the big attractions of EU immigrants coming into the UK - in that they can take a relatively low paid job - but then get topped up with Working tax credits, hence then obtain higher standard of living than in their own country.
As UK offers working tax credits to its own citizens - it has to offer them to EU citizens. Cameron tried to renegotiate this but failed.
Osborne would ideally have liked to abolish working tax credits but faced a revolt and he knew he would have been defeated on this, with current wafer thin majority.
If Osborne could have abolished 'working tax credits' in UK - then EU immigration to the UK would have been much less attractive.
Also maybe other countries in the EU should have conceded this to Cameron in the recent negotiations - as immigration issue may tip scales in favour of Brexit camp.
(Kerouac please correct me if my reading of this is wrong)
It's really not for me to correct you or any other poster Nook.
I'll just state what I understand the deal on tax credits to be.....actually, no I won't, I'll just copy and paste how the deal has been reported. It's quicker (apologies to all offended intellectuals).....
MIGRATION AND BENEFITS
Pledge
"We will insist that EU migrants who want to claim tax credits and child benefit must live here and contribute to our country for a minimum of four years." - Conservative Party Manifesto 2015
What he got
Draft text: This was Cameron's trophy achievement. It consists of a mechanism to “limit the access of union workers newly entering its labour market to in-work benefits for a total period of up to four years from the commencement of employment” if the UK, or any other member state, can show that EU migrants are “putting an excessive pressure on the proper functioning of its public services”.
No details are provided on what “excessive pressure” means, but a note on the mechanism says it will be tabled on the understanding that "it can and will be used" by the UK and the UK will do so "in full expectation of obtaining approval". However the control of the brake appears to remain firmly in the hands of the Commission who must be "notified" by any member state that they believe they are eligible to use it.
The text also adds an important caveat that the “limitation should be graduated, from an initial complete exclusion” to be followed by “gradually increasing access to such benefits” the longer that an EU worker stays in the host member state’s labour market.
Final deal:
All of the above, including a declaration that the four-year brake will be available to Britain for “a period of 7 years”. This is a ‘win’ for Cameron, although he had reportedly demanded up to 13 years availability.
On the negative side, Mr Cameron’s negotiators were unable to remove the “tapering mechanism” which will see EU migrants start to receive benefits when they start to contribute to the system — probably after their first year of work.
Critics will point out that deal only fully denies in-work benefits for one year, not four. There is also no mention of the benefits changes being protected by treaty change, which some critics have warned could leave them vulnerable to challenge in the European Courts.
Cameron has admitted subsequently that this deal will not put off immigrants from the EU...that is, if we could even manage to persuade the European Commission that EU migration is "putting an excessive pressure on the proper functioning of our public services". Do remember that Commissioners are appointed by member states and some of those states benefit economically from the money being sent home by their migrant workers currently. e.g. Poland.
Any floating voters that remain, I would recommend catching the Andrew Neil Interviews on BBC iplayer.
I've got the 1st on now and he's making minced meat out of Hilary Benn (and I'm sure he'll make minced meat out of all the poor sods on both sides of the campaign). He is very good and comprehensive. Watch and make your own minds up. Don't vote either way because of peer pressure or because of the personalities involved. Inform yourselves.
Remain With or Leave the EU on 01:06 - Jun 7 by Kerouac
This is well worth a watch;
Note that the warnings, made by the losing side, of what the EU would become have largely come true.
Interesting link. I voted 'yes' for what at the time appeared to be a trade agreement. It will be 'out' this time.
Intriguingly Lincolnshire recorded the strongest 'yes' vote in the early counting in 1975. Did the citizens of that county realise what was coming I wonder?
The other gem is that the SNP campaigned for 'no', and there were fears that a yes vote would lead to the break-up of the UK.
[Post edited 7 Jun 2016 7:03]
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 07:36 - Jun 7 with 2195 views
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