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Remain With or Leave the EU on 08:15 - Jun 5 by BigPhilG
If David Cameron wants to do one thing it's probably best for me to do the exact opposite. He even said it could lead to war ffs. I don't believe a word he says or all the figures and various stats they're producing
My worry is that it will be rigged, already reports on social media outlets that EU nationals have been sent polling cards and I can't understand why polls suggest a close vote either, social media suggests otherwise
Whichever way it goes, if the result is close there'll be elements on both sides bleating about it being "rigged".
Remain With or Leave the EU on 08:37 - Jun 5 by exiledclaseboy
Whichever way it goes, if the result is close there'll be elements on both sides bleating about it being "rigged".
I see there's a poll reported in the grauniad of a 3% lead for exit. Expect the scare stories to ramp up. The cretins genuinely think project fear and Gordon Brown 'won' the scottish vote.
You'll know the remainers are f***ed when they roll out David Beckham.
Remain With or Leave the EU on 08:50 - Jun 5 by monmouth
I see there's a poll reported in the grauniad of a 3% lead for exit. Expect the scare stories to ramp up. The cretins genuinely think project fear and Gordon Brown 'won' the scottish vote.
You'll know the remainers are f***ed when they roll out David Beckham.
After the election 2015 farce I'm ignoring all polls. Although I think there may be something in the point Lisa made upthread about the "shy Bremainer" issue being a factor.
Remain With or Leave the EU on 18:02 - Jun 4 by monmouth
Anyone who thinks voting out will make a material difference to net migration, or indeed target 'muslims' or refugees, is in cloud cuckoo land.
Also of course, our demographics show that unless we increase immigration over the next 50 years we, as mostly old codgers, will starve.
I guess those arguments don't play well in the obsessed media who just want out. I wish there was a more grown up argument, I really do. May as well toss a coin at the moment, or just vote according to your risk appetite.
I don't know what's so difficult to grasp about this?
Whether the non-EU figure is 10 or 90% of total immigration is irrelevant.
The issue is whilst in the EU we cannot control immigration. It's that simple. You're probably right that in practice it won't make much difference as I believe politicians love the EU as it allows them to pose as "against" policies they secretly agree with and would seek to do anyway.
How you can make your frankly outrageous point in your second paragraph and long for "a more grown up argument" bizarre?
If you seriously think dealing with ageing population with be a more difficult problem than dealing with the rapid growth of an ultra-conservative, separatist religious community who are dead against free speech, women's rights, homosexuality (the very values a self-identifying liberal should be fighting for) then I really haven't got words to describe you?
The orthodox are always orthodox, regardless of the orthodoxy.
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 09:07 - Jun 5 with 1864 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 09:05 - Jun 5 by VetchitBack
I don't know what's so difficult to grasp about this?
Whether the non-EU figure is 10 or 90% of total immigration is irrelevant.
The issue is whilst in the EU we cannot control immigration. It's that simple. You're probably right that in practice it won't make much difference as I believe politicians love the EU as it allows them to pose as "against" policies they secretly agree with and would seek to do anyway.
How you can make your frankly outrageous point in your second paragraph and long for "a more grown up argument" bizarre?
If you seriously think dealing with ageing population with be a more difficult problem than dealing with the rapid growth of an ultra-conservative, separatist religious community who are dead against free speech, women's rights, homosexuality (the very values a self-identifying liberal should be fighting for) then I really haven't got words to describe you?
What has Muslim immigration got to do with the EU? Surely most people taking advantage of the freedom of movement allowed by EU membership won't be Muslims?
Remain With or Leave the EU on 09:07 - Jun 5 by exiledclaseboy
What has Muslim immigration got to do with the EU? Surely most people taking advantage of the freedom of movement allowed by EU membership won't be Muslims?
[Post edited 5 Jun 2016 9:09]
So they won't get breach Europe's Southern or Eastern borders and end up here?
I'm sorry I think that's naive. We're still one of the most inviting countries for migrants and will be for some time. Maybe more than Germany now it has had a reality check.
Basically if you can get into Europe you can get into Britain whilst in the EU. And many can and will do both.
[Post edited 5 Jun 2016 9:15]
The orthodox are always orthodox, regardless of the orthodoxy.
Remain With or Leave the EU on 09:13 - Jun 5 by VetchitBack
So they won't get breach Europe's Southern or Eastern borders and end up here?
I'm sorry I think that's naive. We're still one of the most inviting countries for migrants and will be for some time. Maybe more than Germany now it has had a reality check.
Basically if you can get into Europe you can get into Britain whilst in the EU. And many can and will do both.
[Post edited 5 Jun 2016 9:15]
But the vast majority of EU migration is and will continue to be non-Muslim. That's a fact, yes? If anyone's voting to leave the EU on the basis of objections to Muslim migration then I'm not sure I'm the naive one.
Remain With or Leave the EU on 09:15 - Jun 5 by exiledclaseboy
But the vast majority of EU migration is and will continue to be non-Muslim. That's a fact, yes? If anyone's voting to leave the EU on the basis of objections to Muslim migration then I'm not sure I'm the naive one.
[Post edited 5 Jun 2016 9:17]
If that's a fact it is fact. Unless it is zero percent I don't see how it detracts from my argument.
How are we classing the million or so migrants-who-posed-refugees (great character reference for a start) who entered Germany?
Many speaking some English and not being naive to which countries are more welcoming than others might well have plumped for us without Merkel's intervention.
The orthodox are always orthodox, regardless of the orthodoxy.
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 09:21 - Jun 5 with 1828 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 09:15 - Jun 5 by exiledclaseboy
But the vast majority of EU migration is and will continue to be non-Muslim. That's a fact, yes? If anyone's voting to leave the EU on the basis of objections to Muslim migration then I'm not sure I'm the naive one.
[Post edited 5 Jun 2016 9:17]
I wrote a reply and accidentally deleted it. Probably for the best.
Remain With or Leave the EU on 09:24 - Jun 5 by exiledclaseboy
It's an indication of why this referendum was a terrible idea.
It's pure democracy. Direct democracy similar to what the Swiss have.
I think it's great as it gets people voting for issues not for parties. People vote for what they think is right not for the football team their family have always supported.
The orthodox are always orthodox, regardless of the orthodoxy.
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 09:35 - Jun 5 with 1800 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 18:33 - Jun 4 by exiledclaseboy
Wow your speculation is even wilder than mine!
'Yes and if an election happened, soon after would be a Scottish Referendum and a permanent Tory government well to the right of what we have at the moment.
Anyone hoping that an 'out' will be a good kicking for the Tories should think about the consequences within a few years.'
I would have thought that that was highly likely rather than speculation.
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 09:39 - Jun 5 with 1784 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 09:32 - Jun 5 by VetchitBack
It's pure democracy. Direct democracy similar to what the Swiss have.
I think it's great as it gets people voting for issues not for parties. People vote for what they think is right not for the football team their family have always supported.
I'd imagine your view on how great direct democracy is would depend largely on whether you agree with the results it produces. The tyranny of the majority.
Remain With or Leave the EU on 08:15 - Jun 5 by BigPhilG
If David Cameron wants to do one thing it's probably best for me to do the exact opposite. He even said it could lead to war ffs. I don't believe a word he says or all the figures and various stats they're producing
My worry is that it will be rigged, already reports on social media outlets that EU nationals have been sent polling cards and I can't understand why polls suggest a close vote either, social media suggests otherwise
If Boris Johnson wants to do one thing it's probably best for me to do the exact opposite.
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 09:58 - Jun 5 with 1752 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 09:13 - Jun 5 by VetchitBack
So they won't get breach Europe's Southern or Eastern borders and end up here?
I'm sorry I think that's naive. We're still one of the most inviting countries for migrants and will be for some time. Maybe more than Germany now it has had a reality check.
Basically if you can get into Europe you can get into Britain whilst in the EU. And many can and will do both.
[Post edited 5 Jun 2016 9:15]
If getting in to Europe = getting into the UK then why are there so many migrants stopped at Calias? Sure from there they might get in in dribs and drabs but that's a failing of border security.
I tell you what though. If I was France and Britain voted leave, I'd charter the biggest ship I could find to take all the migrants stuck at the French-british border across to Britain and drop them off.
Upthecity!
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 09:58 - Jun 5 with 1752 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 09:13 - Jun 5 by VetchitBack
So they won't get breach Europe's Southern or Eastern borders and end up here?
I'm sorry I think that's naive. We're still one of the most inviting countries for migrants and will be for some time. Maybe more than Germany now it has had a reality check.
Basically if you can get into Europe you can get into Britain whilst in the EU. And many can and will do both.
[Post edited 5 Jun 2016 9:15]
'Basically if you can get into Europe you can get into Britain whilst in the EU. And many can and will do both.'
EU Nationals with EU passports can get into Britain while we're part of the EU. By 'get into Europe' you mean migrants. Those migrants are not EU Nationals so have not got EU passports and can't get into Britain by right. They'll try but that's a different discussion.
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 10:12 - Jun 5 with 1728 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 09:32 - Jun 5 by VetchitBack
It's pure democracy. Direct democracy similar to what the Swiss have.
I think it's great as it gets people voting for issues not for parties. People vote for what they think is right not for the football team their family have always supported.
Problem is the statistical fact that more than half of the electorate is of below average intelligence.
The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
Remain With or Leave the EU on 09:39 - Jun 5 by exiledclaseboy
I'd imagine your view on how great direct democracy is would depend largely on whether you agree with the results it produces. The tyranny of the majority.
[Post edited 5 Jun 2016 9:40]
Yes true but an end to tribal party allegiances would be a massive benefit. And the elites would have to bend to the will of people not the other way round.
The orthodox are always orthodox, regardless of the orthodoxy.
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 11:45 - Jun 5 with 1669 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 11:30 - Jun 5 by VetchitBack
Yes true but an end to tribal party allegiances would be a massive benefit. And the elites would have to bend to the will of people not the other way round.
I don't disagree with the first part. I do with the second part. The will of the people is not always a good thing. Tyranny of the masses again. That's why I prefer parliamentary democracy. Governments and parliaments have a duty to all citizens, not just the ones who agree with them.
Remain With or Leave the EU on 17:54 - Jun 4 by londonlisa2001
I'm not sure that polls on AA's football site are a likely indicator of direction!
The slightly strange thing for me, is that the probable result of an 'out' which is a swing to the right in our government, certainly in the shorter term, is unlikely to be what 'the ordinary hardworking family' (to use a horrible phrase) wants, and yet it seems that it's that grouping that is most anti remain. It's quite counter intuitive in the way that Labour supporters switching to UKIP is counter intuitive.
It seems that the immigration issue is paramount for many people, yet in many ways it is a red herring.
I also think that some people are saying that they'll vote out and they won't when it comes to it - it's the same as people refusing to admit they'll vote Conservative in polls yet do on the day.
"I also think that some people are saying that they'll vote out and they won't when it comes to it - it's the same as people refusing to admit they'll vote Conservative in polls yet do on the day."
No it's not it's the exact opposite!
It of course remains to be seen but I'd have thought that people who wish to leave realise this is basically a once in generation (lifetime?) chance and will be more motivated to turn out.
I don't make any prediction but in casual conversation brought up by others in a variety of social scenarios have only come across one person who is voting to remain, one or two undecided and the rest all voting out en masse across a wide social range.
Totally anecdotal and unscientific of course but that genuinely has been my experience so far.
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 12:40 - Jun 5 with 1631 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 12:03 - Jun 5 by BarrySwan
"I also think that some people are saying that they'll vote out and they won't when it comes to it - it's the same as people refusing to admit they'll vote Conservative in polls yet do on the day."
No it's not it's the exact opposite!
It of course remains to be seen but I'd have thought that people who wish to leave realise this is basically a once in generation (lifetime?) chance and will be more motivated to turn out.
I don't make any prediction but in casual conversation brought up by others in a variety of social scenarios have only come across one person who is voting to remain, one or two undecided and the rest all voting out en masse across a wide social range.
Totally anecdotal and unscientific of course but that genuinely has been my experience so far.
That very much depends on who you talk to there mate. I have only met a single person who wants to leave. I work at a university, so obviously it's in the best interest of all the staff and students to remain in order to keep EU research grants coming in and to keep free movement. Those two things, along with the fact that the Mrs is an EU national are why its a no-brainer to vote to stay.
You mentioned generation in your post. That's something that P*sses me off about this whole referendum. There are a generation of people who have enjoyed the benefits (clearly they didn't enjoy it that much) of the EU now trying to drag us out of it (that statement isn't directed at you).
Upthecity!
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 12:55 - Jun 5 with 1621 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 10:12 - Jun 5 by Highjack
Problem is the statistical fact that more than half of the electorate is of below average intelligence.
The better educated and more aware will vote to remain,but the right wingers and the little Englanders with their Dad's Army mentality will vote to leave.
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 13:16 - Jun 5 with 1608 views
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