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What should the British Government have done then? I know that the government reneged on a deal with the arabs after forcing the Turks out but did the Israelites also deserve their own land? The Jews have been the most persecuted religion up until recently - that has now become the Christians. One of the reasons for the reduction is Jewish persecution is argued to be that they have their own homeland,
This whole thing stems from the bible unfortunately.The Arabs lived there for thousands of years in their religion it is their land.
The Jews were persecuted in Europe,the Arabs see this as a European problem.
The UN and UK agreed to give half of Palestine as a homeland for the Jews,therefore taking whole towns and villages from Palestinians and settling Jews in the new country of Israel.
The problem is this country of Israel was put in place as "Gods Promised Land" as in the bible and the Israelite s (totally separate race unconnected with modern Israel) of the modern age are reborn. All because the bible says this is where they belong.
PROUD RECIPIENT OF THE THIRD PLANET SWANS LIFETIME ACHIEVEMENT AWARD.
"Per ardua ad astra"
What should the British Government have done then? I know that the government reneged on a deal with the arabs after forcing the Turks out but did the Israelites also deserve their own land? The Jews have been the most persecuted religion up until recently - that has now become the Christians. One of the reasons for the reduction is Jewish persecution is argued to be that they have their own homeland,
This whole thing stems from the bible unfortunately.The Arabs lived there for thousands of years in their religion it is their land.
The Jews were persecuted in Europe,the Arabs see this as a European problem.
The UN and UK agreed to give half of Palestine as a homeland for the Jews,therefore taking whole towns and villages from Palestinians and settling Jews in the new country of Israel.
The problem is this country of Israel was put in place as "Gods Promised Land" as in the bible and the Israelite s (totally separate race unconnected with modern Israel) of the modern age are reborn. All because the bible says this is where they belong.
Ah yes, the old indigenous natives claim.
Conveniently ignores the fact Jews throughtout history had been expelled from the land.
Conveniently ignores the fact the census figures from the original British mandate show that mass immigration of non Jews occurred - the vast population increase would have meant each Palestinian woman giving birth to around ten children each year.
"Arabs" ( and boy that's a gross simplification to lump people within the region under a single term ) saw the persecution in Europe as a purely European problem?
Might want to chek what the Grand Mufti was up to around the timeframe of WWII and in particular who he visited. Israelites are a totally separate race unconnected with modern Israel? Oh boy.... might want to research diasporas.
Don't get me wrong - plenty of blame for many parties. Hell, even the "Arabs" as you term them shoulder a lot of the blame. - Black September anyone? Plenty of machinations from a number of different forces by proxies. The only solution is a two state system, which Hamas will never agree too.
Problem is where propaganda becomes fact, something more prevalent within the anti-Israel faction. Hamas PR claimed thousands dead in Jenin. That became hundreds... the figure rapidly lowering. UN ( hardly fans of Israel ) figure? 54, of which half were armed combatents. Also had the interesting issues of a "dead" Palestinian caught on video footage leaping off a makeshift stretcher.
There's a Labour MP who apologised for tweeted a Jewish journalist "murdered" Palestinians. Except the journalist was errm based in the UK. The same MP had pictures of dead children. Except a picture was originally taken from the Syrian conflict.
The fact is, it's overly simplistic to say "Bad Israelis/Wonderful Palestinians". Lots of complex geopolitics in the whole situation.
Modern Israel is not the same Israel as in the bible..it is a lie used to justify the taking of more land for "Gods People"
Palestinians have the right under international law to resist occupation, ethnic cleansing, colonization, aggression, and annexation. If they are attacked they are allowed to fight back,Those unfortunate kids that were murdered,the case should have been dealt with by international law not bombing innocent civilians.
In 1948, the people who wanted to form a Jewish state carried out a massive terror and ethnic cleansing campaign against the occupants of Palestine, expelling about half of them (750,000) from their land and into concentrated areas (Gaza and West Bank). Israel has slowly continued colonizing even those areas, which were specifically reserved by the UN for Palestinians. Israel takes all the best land and resources, such as water.
PROUD RECIPIENT OF THE THIRD PLANET SWANS LIFETIME ACHIEVEMENT AWARD.
"Per ardua ad astra"
As documented by Amnesty Int’l, Human Rights Watch, and many others, Israel intentionally targets and murders civilians, including children, en masse. Israel also kidnaps and tortures children, including by keeping them in outdoor cages, over night, in winter. But, even ignoring international law and that Gaza is under illegal Israeli occupation, Gaza did not initiate this current round of violence; Israel did: Western/US/Israeli propaganda says the violence started with the kidnapping and killing of three Israeli youths on June 12th. That is a lie: On May 20th, the Israeli government murdered 2 unarmed Palestinian teens, one on video, and wounded a third. The firing of pathetic scrap metal rockets from impoverished Gaza, which have killed no one, were in fact launched in response to earlier Israeli bombings, killings, assassinations, and arrests of Palestinians, including children. Since the year 2000, Israel has killed 1,500 Palestinian children, while Palestinians have killed 132 Israeli children. That means Israel has killed over 1,000% percent more Palestinian children than vice versa. As documented by the Washington DC based non-Profit, The Jerusalem Fund, Israel breaks far more ceasefires than Palestine — this includes firing of the Palestinian scrap metal rockets. For example, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, and many other human rights organizations reported that in Israel’s 2009 Gaza Massacre, Israel killed about 450 children, and it was Israel, they documented, that broke the ceasefire. (In that massacre, Israel killed overall from 1,400 to 7,000 Palestinians, almost all civilians, while 13 Israelis were killed, several from friendly fire.) According to a landmark, comprehensive study of all of Israel’s wars, by Zeev Maoz, Professor of Political Science at the University of California, Davis, former head of the Graduate School of Government and Policy and of the Jaffee Center for Strategic Studies at Tel Aviv University, and former academic director of the M.A. Program at the Israeli Defense Forces’ National Defense College: “. most of the wars in which Israel was involved were the result of deliberate Israeli aggressive design . None of these wars — with the possible exception of the 1948 War of independence — was what Israel refers to as Milhemet Ein Berah (war of necessity). They were all wars of choice . ” — Defending the Holy Land, pg. 35, (bold added) “I review a number of peace-related opportunities ranging from the Zionist-Hashemite collusion in 1947 through the collapse of the Oslo Process in 2000. In all those cases I find that Israeli decision makers — who had been willing to embark upon bold and daring military adventures — were extremely reluctant to make even the smallest concessions for peace . I also find in many cases Israel was engaged in systematic violations of agreements and tacit understandings between itself and its neighbors.” — Defending the Holy Land, pg. 40 Israel has violated more UN resolutions than any other country. That includes Iraq under Hussein. Hamas is the government elected by Gaza in elections that Jimmy Carter (and many others) observed and said were completely fair and free. Israel constantly says Hamas uses human shields. But in Israel’s biggest massacre of Gaza, the one in 2009, all the human rights organizations, including Amnesty, HRW, and the jurist Richard Goldstone, found that Hamas DID NOT use human shields. On the contrary, Israel used human shields, which is a regular practice for Israel. Israel uses civilians as human shields. Israel forced Palestinian civilians to dig and lay naked in trenches around Israeli tanks. See here at 6:45.
Brilliant LB, ethnic cleansing/genocide/holocaust/mass murder call it what you want
The hair and the beard have gone I am now conforming to society, tis a sad day
The b*stards are coming back though
Brilliant LB, ethnic cleansing/genocide/holocaust/mass murder call it what you want
Well Paul the truth is not nice and its not what a lot of people want to hear.
I know this is not a pleasant subject but the facts are undeniable something is seriously wrong here and it s not going to get better any day soon unfortunately.
PROUD RECIPIENT OF THE THIRD PLANET SWANS LIFETIME ACHIEVEMENT AWARD.
"Per ardua ad astra"
The way minority religions such as christians and jews have been treated in islamic countries is disgusting. If Hamas had the technology Israel do, there wouldn't be a Jew left in Israel.
Modern Israel is not the same Israel as in the bible..it is a lie used to justify the taking of more land for "Gods People"
Palestinians have the right under international law to resist occupation, ethnic cleansing, colonization, aggression, and annexation. If they are attacked they are allowed to fight back,Those unfortunate kids that were murdered,the case should have been dealt with by international law not bombing innocent civilians.
In 1948, the people who wanted to form a Jewish state carried out a massive terror and ethnic cleansing campaign against the occupants of Palestine, expelling about half of them (750,000) from their land and into concentrated areas (Gaza and West Bank). Israel has slowly continued colonizing even those areas, which were specifically reserved by the UN for Palestinians. Israel takes all the best land and resources, such as water.
Israelis have the same rights under international law.
For all the ethnic cleansing claims, can't have it both ways. Jews were expelled from numerous "Arab" countries, property and assets stolen, being told to "go to Israel".
The problem is, you can't look at things in that region and try to apply a "British" mindset without understanding the geopolitics or general mentality of the region.
Agree on the settlers issue. That certainly doesn't help matters one iota.
If the reports that the Hamas leader sent his ill granddaughter to Israel for medical treatment is true, makes you wonder what the real Hamas mindset is.
Israelis have the same rights under international law.
For all the ethnic cleansing claims, can't have it both ways. Jews were expelled from numerous "Arab" countries, property and assets stolen, being told to "go to Israel".
The problem is, you can't look at things in that region and try to apply a "British" mindset without understanding the geopolitics or general mentality of the region.
Agree on the settlers issue. That certainly doesn't help matters one iota.
If the reports that the Hamas leader sent his ill granddaughter to Israel for medical treatment is true, makes you wonder what the real Hamas mindset is.
Of course Israelis have the same right but Palestine have not invaded them have they?
If 3 British students got murdered in France we would nt go in and bomb the shit out of Paris would we?And expect the French not to fight back.
Try and look at this objectively, the response of Israel is totally disproportionate to the original crime they are seeking justice for.
No other country in the world would allow this to happen.The Palestinians are more or less defenseless against this kind of aggression.
PROUD RECIPIENT OF THE THIRD PLANET SWANS LIFETIME ACHIEVEMENT AWARD.
"Per ardua ad astra"
Of course Israelis have the same right but Palestine have not invaded them have they?
If 3 British students got murdered in France we would nt go in and bomb the shit out of Paris would we?And expect the French not to fight back.
Try and look at this objectively, the response of Israel is totally disproportionate to the original crime they are seeking justice for.
No other country in the world would allow this to happen.The Palestinians are more or less defenseless against this kind of aggression.
Try and look at this objectively; rockets fired into Israel every single day.
In those circumstances, if France was bombing us I somehow think you not be arguing when bombings then occur on France.
Were the murders of those teens the tipping point, the point where action was required? Certainly.
What I would say is that the Palestinians are being willfully and woefully neglected by their "leaders". Arafat was all about lining Arafat's pocket. The abuses of Fatah led to the radicalisation of Hamas from initially being a charity partly funded by Israel to what it is today - the in fighting was always dramatic.
What the Palestinians need most of all are leaders with enough nous, savvy, ability to actually lead to realise the Hamas aim of driving Israelis into the sea will never happen. That all sides need to accept they will never get 100% of their demands. Deal with the real situation rather than deal in polemics.
Try and look at this objectively; rockets fired into Israel every single day.
In those circumstances, if France was bombing us I somehow think you not be arguing when bombings then occur on France.
Were the murders of those teens the tipping point, the point where action was required? Certainly.
What I would say is that the Palestinians are being willfully and woefully neglected by their "leaders". Arafat was all about lining Arafat's pocket. The abuses of Fatah led to the radicalisation of Hamas from initially being a charity partly funded by Israel to what it is today - the in fighting was always dramatic.
What the Palestinians need most of all are leaders with enough nous, savvy, ability to actually lead to realise the Hamas aim of driving Israelis into the sea will never happen. That all sides need to accept they will never get 100% of their demands. Deal with the real situation rather than deal in polemics.
Hamas is the democratically elected government of Palestine. It has not real ability to fight back.
As pointed out in this thread the tit for tat cross border exchanges have resulted in a thousand times greater figure for killed Palestinians as opposed to Israelis. It s a bit like David and Goliath.
If Israel behaved and stopped mistreating its neighbors and stuck to peace treaties then I'm sure they would all get on better. Instead it keeps antagonizing and grabbing land and water to further expand.
I hope there ll be peace but can t see it in our lifetimes.
PROUD RECIPIENT OF THE THIRD PLANET SWANS LIFETIME ACHIEVEMENT AWARD.
"Per ardua ad astra"
Well Paul the truth is not nice and its not what a lot of people want to hear.
I know this is not a pleasant subject but the facts are undeniable something is seriously wrong here and it s not going to get better any day soon unfortunately.
Yep, you can't condone what hamas is doing however when there is zero trust.....It''s just the whole atitude of the Israeli govt who seem determined to wipe the palestinians out women children and all
The hair and the beard have gone I am now conforming to society, tis a sad day
The b*stards are coming back though
Hamas is the democratically elected government of Palestine. It has not real ability to fight back.
As pointed out in this thread the tit for tat cross border exchanges have resulted in a thousand times greater figure for killed Palestinians as opposed to Israelis. It s a bit like David and Goliath.
If Israel behaved and stopped mistreating its neighbors and stuck to peace treaties then I'm sure they would all get on better. Instead it keeps antagonizing and grabbing land and water to further expand.
I hope there ll be peace but can t see it in our lifetimes.
Hamas has no real ability to fight back? Guess it's been thousands and thousands of bricks fired, oops, lobbed into Israel over the years.
The third paragraph is as realistic and accurate as Harry Potter. Blame Israel, they improve everything magically gets better with puppies and unicorns.
How about this then? Hamas remove their commitment to eradicate Israel. Syria et al stop s*** stirring, supplying rocket equipment. Hamas stop splacing weaponry amongst the civilian population. Israel clamp down on the settlements, get the extreme right wingers under control. Hamas accept a two state solution.
Yep, you can't condone what hamas is doing however when there is zero trust.....It''s just the whole atitude of the Israeli govt who seem determined to wipe the palestinians out women children and all
At the risk of being too flippant, if you're ridiculously claiming the Israeli government are trying to wipe out Palestinians, they are doing a spectacularly poor job of it.
At the risk of being too flippant, if you're ridiculously claiming the Israeli government are trying to wipe out Palestinians, they are doing a spectacularly poor job of it.
The normal practise seems
An israeli gets murdered Israel start bombing Once they think that's enough for now they call a cease fire Untill the next murdered Israeli Repeat .
It seems this latest bombing spree was because of 3 israelians were murdered.
It's all dreadful stuff ,there will never be peace out there sadly .
It's all about support eh, Perch? Do I support Palestine and the rights of its people to have their own state which isn't totally reliant on the hostile Israel for its continued existence? Damn right I do. To add a counterpoint, I also support Israel's right to exist, absolutely I do. There has to be a two state solution and the Palestinian state cannot have to rely on Israel for its very existence otherwise it will never work.
This whole thing is a giant clusterf*ck and mostly of "our" making. Again.
THIS IN SPADES.
It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan
An israeli gets murdered Israel start bombing Once they think that's enough for now they call a cease fire Untill the next murdered Israeli Repeat .
It seems this latest bombing spree was because of 3 israelians were murdered.
It's all dreadful stuff ,there will never be peace out there sadly .
The murder of the Israelis was the tip of the iceberg this time; rockets are fired continually into Israel. Iron Dome gets the overwhelming majority, hence little damage caused. That's not as "sexy" for the media to report though.
How many Western media outlets have reported that the Hamas leader, committed to destroying Israel had his 1 yr old granddaughter sent to Israel for medical treatment? How many media outlets reported treatment was given, as far as possible? Sucide bombing targets within Israel have in the past included universities and hospitals in areas where there has been integration between Israeli Jews and Israeli "Arabs".
That's why it's not always a black and white issue. It's many layered shades of gray. The Palestinian leadership deserves far, far more criticism than it receives. Abbas imo is someone Israel could work with. Hamas... eh.... as Human Rights Watch ( hardly Israeli fans ) pointed out in 2010, Hamas were imposing fairly strict Sharia law upon Gaza. Fatah were/are corrupt as f***, weasel words about poverty whilst lining their pockets - see Arafat. The lovely Suha Arafat commenting on the plight of Palestinians from the luxury conditions of a penthouse suite in Paris. Paid for by money appropriated by ole Yasser.
There are many things Israel could do better. A ground force into Gaza will be a disaster. Due to the layout of Gaza, casualties on all sides would be higher.
The murder of the Israelis was the tip of the iceberg this time; rockets are fired continually into Israel. Iron Dome gets the overwhelming majority, hence little damage caused. That's not as "sexy" for the media to report though.
How many Western media outlets have reported that the Hamas leader, committed to destroying Israel had his 1 yr old granddaughter sent to Israel for medical treatment? How many media outlets reported treatment was given, as far as possible? Sucide bombing targets within Israel have in the past included universities and hospitals in areas where there has been integration between Israeli Jews and Israeli "Arabs".
That's why it's not always a black and white issue. It's many layered shades of gray. The Palestinian leadership deserves far, far more criticism than it receives. Abbas imo is someone Israel could work with. Hamas... eh.... as Human Rights Watch ( hardly Israeli fans ) pointed out in 2010, Hamas were imposing fairly strict Sharia law upon Gaza. Fatah were/are corrupt as f***, weasel words about poverty whilst lining their pockets - see Arafat. The lovely Suha Arafat commenting on the plight of Palestinians from the luxury conditions of a penthouse suite in Paris. Paid for by money appropriated by ole Yasser.
There are many things Israel could do better. A ground force into Gaza will be a disaster. Due to the layout of Gaza, casualties on all sides would be higher.
FYI, here is the take of a former adviser in the Israeli prime minister and a key international negotiator writing in today's FT:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Netanyahu misjudges the risks of his Gaza strategy; Israel’s aversion to solutions raises the threat of a far greater reaction, writes Daniel Levy By Daniel Levy Financial Times, July 16, 2014
Benjamin Netanyahu, Israel’s prime minister, has a Gaza problem but it is not what you might think. The siren alarms sounding in Tel Aviv, Jerusalem and Haifa with each new salvo of rockets fired from Gaza terrify and disrupt. However, the rockets have been managed by Israel’s missile defence system. Since launching its offensive, Israel has thankfully suffered no casualties. Losses will remain low as long as there is no ground offensive.
In military terms, Israel’s supremacy is guaranteed as much in this round of fighting as in the winter of 2008-09 and November 2012. It has one of the world’s most sophisticated armies, by comparison with which the capacity of Hamas-controlled Gaza is Flintstonian. Thousands of tonnes of munitions have already been dropped on Gaza. Rocket production and launching sites have been eradicated, inventories depleted and officials from the Islamist militant group have been killed in Gaza and arrested in the West Bank.
The damage this round of escalation will probably inflict on the fledgling reconciliation deal between the Fatah movement of Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian president, which controls the West Bank, and Hamas hits another sweet spot for Mr Netanyahu. Palestinians are weakened by division and that is how he likes it. He welcomes the opportunity once more to use Gaza to justify his refusal to negotiate any withdrawal from the West Bank. The lesson of Israel’s withdrawal from Gaza in 2005 — that de-occupation equals rockets — is etched deeper into the Israeli psyche with each conflagration, even if that lesson has been in large measure manufactured cynically by Israel’s own policies.
Mr Netanyahu’s problem is not victory per se — but, rather, victory to what end? His difficulty in closing out this latest round originates from his lack of an end game, in either Gaza or the West Bank — at least not one he will acknowledge publicly. He does not want to reoccupy Gaza and to formally reassume responsibility for its 1.7m inhabitants. He knows responsibility cannot be forced on Egypt and he has no interest in handing Gaza to Mr Abbas in order to strengthen the moderate Palestinian camp.
Mr Netanyahu eschews solutions to the broader Israeli-Palestinian conflict. He favours keeping Gaza and the West Bank isolated while tweaking the status quo in ways that reinforce Israeli control. All of which has made it easier for him to accept Egypt’s proposal for a ceasefire. He risks chaos like that seen in Iraq if he degrades Hamas too much. If the already appalling Palestinian casualties keep mounting, protests could gather pace among Palestinians in the West Bank, East Jerusalem and Israel itself, and regional leaders unsympathetic to Hamas will come under increased popular pressure to do something. The arena of conflict could broaden. Some rockets have already been fired into Israel from Lebanon and Syria.
Yet if he degrades Hamas too little, Mr Netanyahu faces a backlash from the extreme right allies he chose as partners in his governing coalition. He seeks a Hamas that is not too weak and not too strong. He intends Gaza to remain under blockade once quiet is restored. He prefers not to commit to a far-reaching package of understandings, and Egypt’s ceasefire proposal avoids that demand.
It is a similar story in the West Bank. Here, Mr Netanyahu wants a Palestinian Authority to take responsibility for the Palestinians with donor assistance but not to control land, resources or security, or to become a sovereign state.
Experimenting with the right mix of policies to achieve this is tricky: denial of another people’s freedom and rights is not an exact science. Mr Netanyahu has put in place perverse incentive structures in Gaza and the West Bank. In Gaza, Palestinian quiet is met by a continued Israeli siege; in the West Bank, co-operation is welcomed with more Israeli settlements.
For Mr Netanyahu, this experiment has so far contained the conflict within parameters he deems acceptable — albeit at a terrible cost to the Palestinians, and further erosion of an Israeli democracy already riven with ultranationalist intolerance and prejudice.
But the experiment is risky. Take it much further and we could see a full-blown anti-apartheid style struggle or, more ominously, Palestinian radicalisation akin to that of Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, leaving Israelis wishing they had negotiated seriously with a unified Fatah-Hamas leadership when they had the chance.
before we get all precious lets forget our role in feckin up Ireland-that s the island of ISLAND. WE try to impose Protestantism into the island in Ulster province and transport Scottish ones over there and called in PLANTATION.
caused centuries of war and hatred which is still there lets face it
before we get all precious lets forget our role in feckin up Ireland-that s the island of ISLAND. WE try to impose Protestantism into the island in Ulster province and transport Scottish ones over there and called in PLANTATION.
caused centuries of war and hatred which is still there lets face it
That's a very valid point perch .
Imagine Britain started bombing Eire in troubles out there .
Fair point Tom and frankly Im surprised we didn't. Ive read a lot about the early days of Eire and of the role it played in giving subtle succour to Hitler by not allowing British bases there. Quite shocking really. Its also the case while we were having our forefathers slaughtered in the Somme these people (Republicans) were bombing cities on the mainland and causing strife;this during a world conflict. Unforgivable. We aint going to progress this argument as its unsolvable as the ARABS wont forget or forgive Israel or the British ,come to that, for taking their land and the Israelis are too super sensitive about it and expanding the land they have. BOTH NEED TO TAKE A STEP BACK ;they wont and that s the tragedy
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