| Club Statement on 21:08 - Jan 13 with 1813 views | Sandyman |
| Club Statement on 21:00 - Jan 13 by NotEyreClue |
It's very unlikely that you're going to get a full on 'not guilty' verdict though. The most likely scenario is that there won't be enough evidence or it was either inconclusive.
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Fair point. |  | |  |
| Club Statement on 21:14 - Jan 13 with 1780 views | NotEyreClue |
| Club Statement on 21:08 - Jan 13 by Sandyman |
Fair point. |
I really hope that if he is cleared then the club can just move on without the abuse and stigma that is likely to follow but I get the feeling that this is just wishful thinking on my part. |  |
| The modern pioneer of mealy mouthed bollocks. |
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| Club Statement on 21:25 - Jan 13 with 1758 views | 49thseason |
If Dunphy had started his investigation at 9.00 this morning most of this thread would now be redundant and a denial or course of action could have been issued.
Or can't we afford a lawyer now? The delay does us no PR favours whatsoever.
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| Club Statement on 21:39 - Jan 13 with 1714 views | Thacks_Rabbits |
| Club Statement on 20:56 - Jan 13 by dancdale |
downunder-
"The only ones to profit from this are legal people, and maybe the papers may sell a few more copies.
Its all a load of b****cks.
As I said before, "Harden up everybody". "
I disagree, a proper full investigation and IF found guilty- resultant sanctions both will show that racism will not be tolerated, something beneficial to all society.
The idea that it should be put up with, and that desire to take action in prevention is somehow being soft- as your statements imply, is woefully outdated and ignorant.
olympicdale-
"There appears to be this mass hysteria at the moment, where almost every black footballer is accusing others of using racial language towards them, may be its just me, but there more times you hear it, the less I'm inclined to believe it nowadays."
You seem to swap your opinions on a regular basis simply to agree and hopefully be liked by whoever has posted last.
What you put here is absolute bull, how many black footballers are there? how many allegations of racial abuse have there been? do you calculate allegations by almost all of them?
Do you really operate a logic where the more allegations there are the less likely there to be a crime?
Of those recent allegations that have occurred, which have proven untrue, or have even been denied? |
What i find interesting, and I am not defending anything with regard to racism, is that going back 20 years in the Rochdale Sunday League, I played football with a black guy, sure others knew him, a tough tackling midfielder and very good player - known only as "Bluey" - because he was Black and left others Black and Blue. It was not offensive or nasty, if anyone gave him grief we would have stood alongside him the same as anyone else - because he was.
The most nasty and malicious abuse I have ever seen was aimed at the team ginger - some of the things were genuinely awful, but like anything else it was dealt with as words generally and laughed off.
The only thing that really sticks in my throat is the fact that Rap artists can say the N word in a song, be they black, white or whatever, and thats fine. Is that not racism?
So if I perform a rap in a football stand, using the above word, is that no longer racist? I dislike the general double standards we have and the way one thing is ok and another is not. At College at Hopwood one of the major issues was asian gangs from oldham coming down to fight with Rochdale asians - the same words were said in aggression as was common around the refectory dinner table - but woe be tide anyone that is not asian saying the P word.
If our player did what is accused then punish him, but I do await the next prosectution for a ginger being insulted, an aussie calling an Englishman a Pommie or a Frenchman being called a Frog!
Playing devils advocate to a point but whilst I am aware of the full past and awful treatment of African people - but you should be proud of your ancestors - so why bow down to idiots? |  |
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| Club Statement on 21:40 - Jan 13 with 1712 views | dancdale |
| Club Statement on 21:25 - Jan 13 by 49thseason |
If Dunphy had started his investigation at 9.00 this morning most of this thread would now be redundant and a denial or course of action could have been issued.
Or can't we afford a lawyer now? The delay does us no PR favours whatsoever.
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The club (for once) has done nothing wrong.
Upon receiving notification of the complaint (whatever time that was), the club had a obligation to seek suitable legal advice, utilise it in organising and implementing a robust investigatory process, and enable suitable opportunity for Grant to obtain any desired representation.
To attempt to do this on a immediate, same day basis, especially a Sunday, would have been an unreasonable, if not impossible action which would have jeopardised the clubs position.
There is little else the club could have done publicly other than make the statement it has. |  | | |
| Club Statement on 21:51 - Jan 13 with 1697 views | Thacks_Rabbits |
| Club Statement on 21:40 - Jan 13 by dancdale |
The club (for once) has done nothing wrong.
Upon receiving notification of the complaint (whatever time that was), the club had a obligation to seek suitable legal advice, utilise it in organising and implementing a robust investigatory process, and enable suitable opportunity for Grant to obtain any desired representation.
To attempt to do this on a immediate, same day basis, especially a Sunday, would have been an unreasonable, if not impossible action which would have jeopardised the clubs position.
There is little else the club could have done publicly other than make the statement it has. |
Totally agree - but then I still thing Grant was within his rights to deny it all on sky - as an innocent man would do - nothing to hide then be totally open! | |
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| Club Statement on 21:52 - Jan 13 with 1696 views | D_Dale |
| Club Statement on 21:25 - Jan 13 by 49thseason |
If Dunphy had started his investigation at 9.00 this morning most of this thread would now be redundant and a denial or course of action could have been issued.
Or can't we afford a lawyer now? The delay does us no PR favours whatsoever.
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Unless Grant says "I used the word ...", in which case all the club can do is conduct a damage limitation exercise, I'm not clear what Dunphy could have ascertained at 9am this morning. If Grant denies it, it might not be wise to issue a D&R-type press release ("we believe Bobby and give him our full support") without having seen the ref's report and knowing what the statements of players on both sides will amount to. Really, the only inquiries that will count for anything are those by the police and the FA. These are not going to take place quickly, and if the accusation is denied the matter seems bound to drag on.
Edit.: After posting the above, I've seen dancdale's post which expresses rather better the point I was trying to make about the limits to what the club can do at this stage.
Has Grant publicly denied he abused the D&R player, as another poster implies he has? [Post edited 1 Jan 1970 1:00]
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| Club Statement on 21:55 - Jan 13 with 1680 views | dancdale |
'The only thing that really sticks in my throat is the fact that Rap artists can say the N word in a song, be they black, white or whatever, and thats fine. Is that not racism? '
No.
'So if I perform a rap in a football stand, using the above word, is that no longer racist? '
Depends why you're performing it, but if purely without any malicious intention- No, it never was.
'I dislike the general double standards we have and the way one thing is ok and another is not.'
There are no double standards.
'but woe be tide anyone that is not asian saying the P word. '
Anyone can say the word 'paki'. it is the intention, implied meaning, context and reasoning which determines whether it is offensive or not.
'I do await the next prosectution for a ginger being insulted, an aussie calling an Englishman a Pommie or a Frenchman being called a Frog! '
Strictly speaking none of these things are racist incidents, although I think there have been prosecutions based on xenophobic abuse previously (Cantona incident)
'whilst I am aware of the full past and awful treatment of African people - but you should be proud of your ancestors - so why bow down to idiots?'
Because racism isnt something that happened in the past, its ongoing, calling it out andtaking action against it is the exact opposite of bowing down to the idiots. [Post edited 1 Jan 1970 1:00]
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| Club Statement on 22:23 - Jan 13 with 1620 views | Thacks_Rabbits |
| Club Statement on 21:55 - Jan 13 by dancdale |
'The only thing that really sticks in my throat is the fact that Rap artists can say the N word in a song, be they black, white or whatever, and thats fine. Is that not racism? '
No.
'So if I perform a rap in a football stand, using the above word, is that no longer racist? '
Depends why you're performing it, but if purely without any malicious intention- No, it never was.
'I dislike the general double standards we have and the way one thing is ok and another is not.'
There are no double standards.
'but woe be tide anyone that is not asian saying the P word. '
Anyone can say the word 'paki'. it is the intention, implied meaning, context and reasoning which determines whether it is offensive or not.
'I do await the next prosectution for a ginger being insulted, an aussie calling an Englishman a Pommie or a Frenchman being called a Frog! '
Strictly speaking none of these things are racist incidents, although I think there have been prosecutions based on xenophobic abuse previously (Cantona incident)
'whilst I am aware of the full past and awful treatment of African people - but you should be proud of your ancestors - so why bow down to idiots?'
Because racism isnt something that happened in the past, its ongoing, calling it out andtaking action against it is the exact opposite of bowing down to the idiots. [Post edited 1 Jan 1970 1:00]
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No wonder this country is in a total shables - no doubt the Guardian has a forum on this every week.
So if I say a word in friendship its ok, If its not mallicious its ok, and I can slag off anyone of the same colour as long as I accept its xenophobia not racism.
Britain were a disgrace in the 1800's - slavery, opium wars, indian mutiny etc - but funily enough people from those countries are happy to settle and live here - and I have no issues with that whatsoever.
I repeat if Grant did what is accused I would sack him, but its getting beyond a joke now. | |
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| Club Statement on 22:26 - Jan 13 with 1596 views | R17ALE |
| Club Statement on 22:23 - Jan 13 by Thacks_Rabbits |
No wonder this country is in a total shables - no doubt the Guardian has a forum on this every week.
So if I say a word in friendship its ok, If its not mallicious its ok, and I can slag off anyone of the same colour as long as I accept its xenophobia not racism.
Britain were a disgrace in the 1800's - slavery, opium wars, indian mutiny etc - but funily enough people from those countries are happy to settle and live here - and I have no issues with that whatsoever.
I repeat if Grant did what is accused I would sack him, but its getting beyond a joke now. |
The world has gone mad! I'm not homophobic. A number of my friends are black. |  |
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| Club Statement on 22:35 - Jan 13 with 1556 views | Thacks_Rabbits |
| Club Statement on 22:26 - Jan 13 by R17ALE |
The world has gone mad! I'm not homophobic. A number of my friends are black. |
Nor me Razz - I hate racism and many of my friends are gay :) | |
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| Club Statement on 22:37 - Jan 13 with 1547 views | dancdale |
| Club Statement on 22:23 - Jan 13 by Thacks_Rabbits |
No wonder this country is in a total shables - no doubt the Guardian has a forum on this every week.
So if I say a word in friendship its ok, If its not mallicious its ok, and I can slag off anyone of the same colour as long as I accept its xenophobia not racism.
Britain were a disgrace in the 1800's - slavery, opium wars, indian mutiny etc - but funily enough people from those countries are happy to settle and live here - and I have no issues with that whatsoever.
I repeat if Grant did what is accused I would sack him, but its getting beyond a joke now. |
'So if I say a word in friendship its ok, If its not mallicious its ok'
No, you can say a word with racial connotations as long as you are not being racist. Whether you are or not depends on the reason, intention, implication, context, and perceivable result of its use.
'I can slag off anyone of the same colour as long as I accept its xenophobia not racism.'
No, you obviously have no understanding of the meaning of the words racism and xenophobia, I suggest you look them up.
'Britain were a disgrace in the 1800's - slavery, opium wars, indian mutiny etc - but funily enough people from those countries are happy to settle and live here - and I have no issues with that whatsoever. '
How very gracious of you, still it would have been polite for them to have asked you first wouldn't it?
'its getting beyond a joke now'
What is? How?
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| Club Statement on 22:55 - Jan 13 with 1498 views | Thacks_Rabbits |
| Club Statement on 22:37 - Jan 13 by dancdale |
'So if I say a word in friendship its ok, If its not mallicious its ok'
No, you can say a word with racial connotations as long as you are not being racist. Whether you are or not depends on the reason, intention, implication, context, and perceivable result of its use.
'I can slag off anyone of the same colour as long as I accept its xenophobia not racism.'
No, you obviously have no understanding of the meaning of the words racism and xenophobia, I suggest you look them up.
'Britain were a disgrace in the 1800's - slavery, opium wars, indian mutiny etc - but funily enough people from those countries are happy to settle and live here - and I have no issues with that whatsoever. '
How very gracious of you, still it would have been polite for them to have asked you first wouldn't it?
'its getting beyond a joke now'
What is? How?
'
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You clearly live in a land of special people and clouds that give out marshmellows and every cloud delivers good news.
I envy your idealistic incompitent world where nobody judges or hates - it would be great if it were real - but its not.
Prejudice will exist at all levels forever - believe it or not I have been abused for being English in certain nations - shit - Wheres my nearest lawyer!
Context, implication and intention are totally in the eye of the beholder - what may offend one may be innocent to another.
I would guess my understanding is fairly good - and you clearly post eliquently so I would guess you are also educated - but whilst idealism is great realism is greater.
A terrorist is only a terrorist until they win - then they are a freedom fighter - bollox of course - but you will love that quote | |
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| Club Statement on 23:24 - Jan 13 with 1469 views | mandale |
| Club Statement on 19:40 - Jan 13 by johnofheywood |
Last time I looked, in this country you are still 'innocent until proven guily'. I would suggest that some of the more 'offended' posters on here have their own agenda, and this ALLEGED incident has merely provided a further way of advancing their agenda. Also the law regarding defamation applies to comments published on this site - be careful, the police are just as keen on kicking down the doors of internet 'abusers' at 4 in the morning as they are of alleged racists. Freedom of speech in this country is under attack at many levels.
As far as the club not reacting more quickly, as soon as D& R reported the alleged incident to the Met the matter became a potential criminal matter. Under the recommendations of the Macpherson report, which have been implemented, the Met ARE FORCED to investigate allegations of this type. I express no opinion as to the rights and wrongs of this, apart from the fact that it has opened the door to the likes of The Society of Black Lawyers to complain about 'incidents' at games where none of the complainants was actually present! i would imagine that Rochdale AFC would have wanted to seek a legal opinion on any response before publishing it on the official site, and I would imagine it would take time on a Sunday to get this legal advice. Lets not get ahead of ourselves on condemning the player, the Directors or the club before the truth of this allegation has been established.
Unfortunately, this alleged incident has opened the doors to those with their own agenda at both a local and national level to take the moral high ground, and the name of Rochdale AFC will now be dragged through the 'racist' dirt with maximum publicity. if the allegations are later found to be 'not proven' or even worse 'untrue', I wonder if the same level of publicity will be applied to any retractions or apologies???
Sorry about the length of this post, but an allegation of 'racism' is one of the most potentially damaging things that can be levelled at an individual or a club these days, and 'mud sticks'. We will now see our club on the defensive over this, and the player and the club having to 'prove their innocence', which is contrary to all priciples of English Law. |
"an allegation of 'racism' is one of the most potentially damaging things that can be levelled at an individual or a club these days, and 'mud sticks'"
Well that rather depends. As this week's Private Eye points out, Tory MP Conor Burns, who led the 'moral outrage' over Channel 4's NYE quiz, "brought the house down at a right-wing dinner" by telling a 'joke' about how CHOGM didn't stand for Commonwealth... but 'Coons Holidaying on Government Money'.
Conor Burns website proudly notes how he 'topped the polls' to be elected the Culture, Media and Sports Committee and will report, amongst other things, on "racism in football". He will, at least, be well qualified to judge.
Did the MacPherson report not recommend that MPs be investigated by the Police with the same vigour that footballers currently are, for pre-meditated, scripted racist jokes made during a well-paid after-dinner speeches?!
If the player has done it, he's an idiot in the current climate and should be banned - but it wasn't so long ago Chelsea were outraged over the racist referee that never was. Nearly everyone assumed he was innocent; Bobby Grant is assumed guilty. It's an unhelpful stereotype.
The overall point is that Football deals with racism with commendable strength - strength apparently lacking in the law makers (and much of the establishment and media), who can do more than anyone to shape a better future in this regard. If you're a racist celebrity, there's not much work going these days (ask Jim Davidson); if you're a racist MP acres of space is available to ply your wares and be handsomely rewarded for it.
Maybe we need some advice, when moral outrage pours onto the sports pages on Monday. Who do you think might give it?
conor.burns.mp@parliament.uk
http://www.conorburns.com/news/conor-elected-select-committee
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| Club Statement on 23:28 - Jan 13 with 1460 views | R17ALE |
| Club Statement on 22:55 - Jan 13 by Thacks_Rabbits |
You clearly live in a land of special people and clouds that give out marshmellows and every cloud delivers good news.
I envy your idealistic incompitent world where nobody judges or hates - it would be great if it were real - but its not.
Prejudice will exist at all levels forever - believe it or not I have been abused for being English in certain nations - shit - Wheres my nearest lawyer!
Context, implication and intention are totally in the eye of the beholder - what may offend one may be innocent to another.
I would guess my understanding is fairly good - and you clearly post eliquently so I would guess you are also educated - but whilst idealism is great realism is greater.
A terrorist is only a terrorist until they win - then they are a freedom fighter - bollox of course - but you will love that quote |
Danc is a lovely chap, but is scarred by the left. He might as well visit Russia. Mostgo Dan!
As with all lefties, his posts contain many words but say very little.
You only had you watch that Middlebrand tvvat on Andrew Marr's programme this morning, bleating on to see what I'm getting at.
God, what a boring c unt! | |
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| Club Statement on 23:34 - Jan 13 with 1447 views | judd |
| Club Statement on 23:28 - Jan 13 by R17ALE |
Danc is a lovely chap, but is scarred by the left. He might as well visit Russia. Mostgo Dan!
As with all lefties, his posts contain many words but say very little.
You only had you watch that Middlebrand tvvat on Andrew Marr's programme this morning, bleating on to see what I'm getting at.
God, what a boring c unt! |
Well I'm dreading the forecasted snow on the pitch fans appeal and bring your own spade appeal.
Don't fookin' start - I'm the son of an immigrant. |  |
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| Club Statement on 23:38 - Jan 13 with 1433 views | sandylaner1 |
let's go to the winchester, have a pint and wait for all this to blow over |  | | |
| Club Statement on 23:40 - Jan 13 with 1425 views | judd |
| Club Statement on 23:38 - Jan 13 by sandylaner1 |
let's go to the winchester, have a pint and wait for all this to blow over |
Who you calling gay? | |
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| Club Statement on 23:40 - Jan 13 with 1424 views | Thacks_Rabbits |
| Club Statement on 23:28 - Jan 13 by R17ALE |
Danc is a lovely chap, but is scarred by the left. He might as well visit Russia. Mostgo Dan!
As with all lefties, his posts contain many words but say very little.
You only had you watch that Middlebrand tvvat on Andrew Marr's programme this morning, bleating on to see what I'm getting at.
God, what a boring c unt! |
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| Club Statement on 23:41 - Jan 13 with 1424 views | dancdale |
| Club Statement on 22:55 - Jan 13 by Thacks_Rabbits |
You clearly live in a land of special people and clouds that give out marshmellows and every cloud delivers good news.
I envy your idealistic incompitent world where nobody judges or hates - it would be great if it were real - but its not.
Prejudice will exist at all levels forever - believe it or not I have been abused for being English in certain nations - shit - Wheres my nearest lawyer!
Context, implication and intention are totally in the eye of the beholder - what may offend one may be innocent to another.
I would guess my understanding is fairly good - and you clearly post eliquently so I would guess you are also educated - but whilst idealism is great realism is greater.
A terrorist is only a terrorist until they win - then they are a freedom fighter - bollox of course - but you will love that quote |
'You clearly live in a land of special people and clouds that give out marshmellows and every cloud delivers good news.'
No, same one as you. Good contribution to the debate though.
'I envy your idealistic incompitent world where nobody judges or hates - it would be great if it were real - but its not. '
You're agreeing with me. The world is not as it should be in these matters and you'd like it to be different. Then why argue with me in speaking out to, in a small way, attempt to change things. (Not sure of the misuse and misspelling of 'incompitent' though)
'Prejudice will exist at all levels forever'
Probably, do we just accept it then? It can be, and has been, changed for the better- is this wrong?
'Context, implication and intention are totally in the eye of the beholder'
No, this is incorrect.
'I would guess my understanding is fairly good'
Your postings have implied a poor understanding of several of the terms and concepts we have discussed.
'A terrorist is only a terrorist until they win - then they are a freedom fighter - bollox of course - but you will love that quote'
Not heard it, who said it? Maybe you mean the more common "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter"? But still- no, I dont love it, bit of cliched hyperbole, though perhaps does have some relevance as an example in the perspectivism/absolutism element to our debate. Again it is intention, context, reason etc that actually allows a discernible truth to be achieved.
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| Club Statement on 23:54 - Jan 13 with 1413 views | mandale |
| Club Statement on 21:51 - Jan 13 by Thacks_Rabbits |
Totally agree - but then I still thing Grant was within his rights to deny it all on sky - as an innocent man would do - nothing to hide then be totally open! |
no, because the moment he denies it, Sky immediately go back to D&R, who say they're sticking by their story, and a whole media frenzy engulfs the club before they have had any time to organise their response professionally. A denial from Grant is the best way to make sure the story is more prominently featured in every Monday morning paper.
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| Club Statement on 00:01 - Jan 14 with 1406 views | Thacks_Rabbits |
As oppose to the sunday one we are all over with no defence? | |
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| Club Statement on 07:50 - Jan 14 with 1332 views | bilbobaggins |
| Club Statement on 17:32 - Jan 13 by judd |
I think the police statement you refer to embellished what was actually said, even the the fooker wasn't even there! Mitchell never denied the argument, just the extent of profanity.
The "witness" in the Sun link said the remark was made "apparently" and also that he "heard" it.
Make your own minds up.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/football/4741015/Bobby-Grant-accused- |
if this allegation is true sack him .but i wonder if it is found false will the police be charging the other player for false allegation and then he get sack i think not as we have already have seen a ref cleared and no action taken against the one who made the allegation make the punishment fit the crime both ways .
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| Club Statement on 08:24 - Jan 14 with 1311 views | G_Dale |
I was so excited at first. Usually a club statement means the managers got the boot | |
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| Club Statement on 08:26 - Jan 14 with 1308 views | dingdangblue |
| Club Statement on 17:46 - Jan 13 by Thacks_Rabbits |
Dont know either of the players concerned - but guess who I believe!!! |
The only thing with Ogogo saying he heard it - is Hoyte's tweet after the game had long finished that 'no one else heard it' ? Unless Ogogo just forgot to mention it at the time? |  |
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