| General Election Thread 17:46 - May 22 with 247575 views | loftboy |
This will be the first election that I have no idea who to vote for, will never vote Tory again after the lies during covid where my dad lost his life, don’t trust starmer, would never vote for a bunch of racists like reform , anyone give me a clue?
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| General Election Thread on 11:31 - Jun 14 with 2109 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| General Election Thread on 11:22 - Jun 14 by colinallcars |
I dunno about Marx, he didn't like Assam tea did he ? |
His sister Onya was a decent track athlete. |  | | |
| General Election Thread on 11:32 - Jun 14 with 2106 views | Northernr |
I think that second par is basically where I’m coming from. It’s a very difficult road out of here whichever way we head, totally agree. |  | | |
| General Election Thread on 11:36 - Jun 14 with 2067 views | hubble |
| General Election Thread on 11:09 - Jun 14 by BazzaInTheLoft |
That's not what marxism is, but i'm not going to inflict LfW with a lecture about it so will leave it there. |
It's not what Marxism is? Well in lieu of that tantalising refusal to lecture us all, I'm just going to put this out there (collated from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_proletariat), in case anyone thought Marxism was just a slightly less fluffy form of socialism:
"The phrase dictatorship of the proletariat was first used by Karl Marx in a series of articles which were later republished as The Class Struggle in France 1848–1850."
"While Karl Marx did not write much about the nature of the dictatorship of the proletariat, The Communist Manifesto (1848) stated "their ends can be attained only by the forcible overthrow of all existing social conditions."
In light of the Hungarian Revolution of 1848, Marx wrote that "there is only one way in which the murderous death agonies of the old society and the bloody birth throes of the new society can be shortened, simplified and concentrated, and that way is revolutionary terror."
In Marxist philosophy, the dictatorship of the proletariat is a condition in which the proletariat, or working class, holds control over state power. The dictatorship of the proletariat is the transitional phase from a capitalist and a communist economy, whereby the post-revolutionary state seizes the means of production, mandates the implementation of direct elections on behalf of and within the confines of the ruling proletarian state party, and institutes elected delegates into representative workers' councils that nationalise ownership of the means of production from private to collective ownership." |  |
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| General Election Thread on 11:41 - Jun 14 with 2044 views | colinallcars |
| General Election Thread on 11:31 - Jun 14 by BazzaInTheLoft |
His sister Onya was a decent track athlete. |
Nice to see the ol' ones coming out !
We'll have Britannia Waives The Rules next… |  | | |
| General Election Thread on 11:58 - Jun 14 with 1971 views | Stainrod |
I think there is actually quite a lot people TEND to agree on in this thread:
General unhappiness with the Tories
Not massive enthusiasm for Labour
Openness to smaller parties
Even on immigration:
Liberals like me have agreed that immigration DOES result in problems (as well as benefits), particularly for those on lower wages and in poorer areas
Most agree that living standards have remained far too flat for far too long
Where there is genuine difference is whether (like the Reform-type posters on here) you think immigration is the CAUSE of many of our country's ills or whether (like me and a number of others) you think its a symptom of far deeper problems.
As some have concluded, there are no easy solutions: you haul up the drawbridge on globalisation, stop immigration and increase wages - fine. But we still live in a globalised world where the Chinese can pay $1 a day to workers. Its not just foreign workers in this country we have to compete with.
The challenge to me is how do you raise productivity in the UK and create high value jobs which aren't so easy for the Chinese etc to undercut?
To me that means things like:
Encouraging pension funds and businesses to invest in British tech firms - when Britain has had a genuinely really exciting tech company it has in almost every case been swallowed up by a big, usually American conglomerate.
Incentivise investment
Invest in education
Invest in health
Invest in infrastructure
But all these problems are highly complex and the reason I am sceptical of the Farages (and Corbyns) of this world is anyone promising easy solutions probably hasn't understood the problem. |  | | |
| General Election Thread on 14:35 - Jun 14 with 1748 views | R_from_afar |
Technology can help but I've seen a documentary about trying to replace farm workers with machines and there remain some huge challenges. It's very difficult, if not currently impossible, and costly to replicate the combination of vision and grip required for some activities, not just picking produce but also some of the processes involving in growing it.
For a while, I worked full time in a plant nursery when I was a teenager and some of the processes required a very deft and gentle touch, like potting on young plants and taking the top bud out of a plant to make it bush out rather than just grow upwards. We did have a potting machine which greatly speeded up that process - and was a tremendous laugh to use as we used to keep upping the operating speed to see how fast we could work, until invariably, a pot was placed in the driller on a slant and couldn't be filled properly.
I understand the theory of only bringing in immigrants to do highly skilled jobs, but every country, no matter how high tech, is going to need binmen, farm workers and healthcare assistants. It's not just that these jobs are poorly paid, they are hard work. After I got made redundant recently, I actually considered a farm labouring job and investigated a place offering them locally. A requirement was that you had to live on site, which was the killer for me.
As an aside, there were other factors which made that plant nursery job pretty gruelling:
- Your clothes got destroyed
- It was filthy work, obs
- I got rashes on my hands from all the contact with plants and, probably more importantly, loitering insects
- Some of the long and tedious tasks messed with your head. When you've spent 90 minutes walking up and down a field, staring at seemingly countless potted plants in a bid to find and deal with any which aren't sat straight (for automated watering purposes), you can start seeing endless rows of the damn things in your sleep. Well, I did, at least.
I don't think there are any easy answers but I can't believe there are many countries of the size and nature of the UK which can currently manage without *any* immigration. |  |
| "Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1." |
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| General Election Thread on 14:56 - Jun 14 with 1689 views | Northernr |
| General Election Thread on 14:35 - Jun 14 by R_from_afar |
Technology can help but I've seen a documentary about trying to replace farm workers with machines and there remain some huge challenges. It's very difficult, if not currently impossible, and costly to replicate the combination of vision and grip required for some activities, not just picking produce but also some of the processes involving in growing it.
For a while, I worked full time in a plant nursery when I was a teenager and some of the processes required a very deft and gentle touch, like potting on young plants and taking the top bud out of a plant to make it bush out rather than just grow upwards. We did have a potting machine which greatly speeded up that process - and was a tremendous laugh to use as we used to keep upping the operating speed to see how fast we could work, until invariably, a pot was placed in the driller on a slant and couldn't be filled properly.
I understand the theory of only bringing in immigrants to do highly skilled jobs, but every country, no matter how high tech, is going to need binmen, farm workers and healthcare assistants. It's not just that these jobs are poorly paid, they are hard work. After I got made redundant recently, I actually considered a farm labouring job and investigated a place offering them locally. A requirement was that you had to live on site, which was the killer for me.
As an aside, there were other factors which made that plant nursery job pretty gruelling:
- Your clothes got destroyed
- It was filthy work, obs
- I got rashes on my hands from all the contact with plants and, probably more importantly, loitering insects
- Some of the long and tedious tasks messed with your head. When you've spent 90 minutes walking up and down a field, staring at seemingly countless potted plants in a bid to find and deal with any which aren't sat straight (for automated watering purposes), you can start seeing endless rows of the damn things in your sleep. Well, I did, at least.
I don't think there are any easy answers but I can't believe there are many countries of the size and nature of the UK which can currently manage without *any* immigration. |
Having disparaged this thread yesterday can I say it has actually been enlightening, as with the poster who worked in the licensing trade a dozen or so pages back, when somebody who knows what they're talking about adds input, so thank you. | | | |
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| General Election Thread on 15:00 - Jun 14 with 1679 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| General Election Thread on 14:56 - Jun 14 by Northernr |
Having disparaged this thread yesterday can I say it has actually been enlightening, as with the poster who worked in the licensing trade a dozen or so pages back, when somebody who knows what they're talking about adds input, so thank you. |
You should consider how this forum would look if we restricted contributions to industry experts only. | | | |
| General Election Thread on 15:06 - Jun 14 with 1670 views | Northernr |
| General Election Thread on 15:00 - Jun 14 by BazzaInTheLoft |
You should consider how this forum would look if we restricted contributions to industry experts only. |
We're tired of experts Baz. | | | |
| General Election Thread on 22:05 - Jun 14 with 1439 views | derbyhoop |
UK hasnt got enough available workers to fill numerous low paid positions. Either through not being fit for work or a life on benefits. The former affected by 7.5m on NHS waiting lists. The care sector, hospitality and construction are dependent on immigrant workers who are unlikely to earn £38k.
Generally, immigrants are young, out of education and going to work for a long time. I remember figures showing immigrants paying more tax per head than native workers. So I really dont understand where you get your figures from. |  |
| "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one's lifetime." (Mark Twain)
Find me on twitter @derbyhoop and now on Bluesky |
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| General Election Thread on 22:53 - Jun 14 with 1349 views | numptydumpty |
The conservative campaign from its beginnings has been the most shambolic, chaotic, embarrassing , gaffe ridden, amateur f*ck up of the most extreme kind !!!
Sunak has proven he is more of an robot than Starmer
Farage has taken his opportunities once more.
Thats it !!!
The country is up the duff !! |  |
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| General Election Thread on 22:53 - Jun 14 with 1351 views | StJude82 |
Check out the Greens manifesto. It certifies their extreme left wing-edness. | | | |
| General Election Thread on 02:01 - Jun 15 with 1266 views | SydneyRs |
| General Election Thread on 08:59 - Jun 14 by loftboy |
“ The increasing number of people over retirement age need pensions, health care etc. In the UK this requires funding from the tax base funded by working people. If the tax base is dwindling (which it certainly would be without immigration) while the retirement age population grows, who funds these things? And how?”
Here we go shades of Russian Bot here, can I remind you that my generation unless academically gifted left school at 16, started work immediately, my first tax code gave me a tax free allowance of £1275 compared with £12500 today, we paid over 20 P in the pound tax, once married the only help available was child benefit, there was no tax credits, or universal credit to back up your wages, you wanted more money you did more overtime.
As I’ve said previously by the time I get my state pension ( which is one of the lowest in Europe) I’d have worked for 51 years. I think I’ve contributed to my pension, don’t you? |
Absolutely, yes.
I wasn't trying to say that retired people don't deserve or shouldn't get pensions. The issue is there is now and will be in the future more people than ever in that age group and the costs have to be funded from the current tax base, not what those people paid into the system when working. They would have been funding those who were retired when they were in the workforce.
The ratio of retired non workers to tax paying workers has changed. There are simply a lot more over 65s than there used to be. So it costs more to fund their pensions than it used to.
Nobody wants to see the pensions taken away therefore you have to increase tax revenue. The only ways to do this is to either significantly raise income taxes or get more people of working age into the workforce. It's a big reason why there is so much immigration and why the ideas of someone like Farage are a fantasy. | | | |
| General Election Thread on 07:42 - Jun 15 with 1598 views | StreathamRanger |
| General Election Thread on 22:05 - Jun 14 by derbyhoop |
UK hasnt got enough available workers to fill numerous low paid positions. Either through not being fit for work or a life on benefits. The former affected by 7.5m on NHS waiting lists. The care sector, hospitality and construction are dependent on immigrant workers who are unlikely to earn £38k.
Generally, immigrants are young, out of education and going to work for a long time. I remember figures showing immigrants paying more tax per head than native workers. So I really dont understand where you get your figures from. |
My mum's care home in Wimbledon is staffed almost entirely by immigrants. It treats it's staff well and pays above market rate but still mainly staffed by young men and women from Indian subcontinent. They are hard working, kind and patient and work with some very challenging behaviour from the residents with dementia (including my mum). I'm very grateful that they decided to come and work in the UK despite the frosty reception they receive from many people. If we only allowed skilled labour in then the care system would be totally screwed. No way the 'native' British could or would even want to fill all the vacancies in care homes. | | | |
| General Election Thread on 08:08 - Jun 15 with 1526 views | Wilkinswatercarrier |
The immigration arguments, both for, against or limited, are really interesting.
Our country, though, is not alone with the conundrum of a longer living population coupled with a falling workforce/tax contributions to provide care. This debate is going on worldwide.
The one thing I don't understand though is the lack of guilt in this country, regardless of political leanings, to taking health care workers from low income countries such as The Philippines. These workers are badly needed in their own countries, yet we are quite happy to poach them to fill our own needs.
The right love it as they are cheap, the left love it as it Saves the NHS. | | | |
| General Election Thread on 08:17 - Jun 15 with 1515 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| General Election Thread on 22:53 - Jun 14 by StJude82 |
Check out the Greens manifesto. It certifies their extreme left wing-edness. |
‘Are you now or have you ever been a member of the Green Party’
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| General Election Thread on 09:38 - Jun 15 with 1442 views | dmm |
| General Election Thread on 22:53 - Jun 14 by StJude82 |
Check out the Greens manifesto. It certifies their extreme left wing-edness. |
I know! Isn't it great? A party with proper left wing policies like taxing the mega wealthy, providing for the most vulnerable, taking the climate crisis seriously and being prepared to change our outdated electoral system so we have a real representative political system instead of one in name only.
Thanks for pointing this out. |  | | |
| General Election Thread on 09:47 - Jun 15 with 1431 views | loftboy |
| General Election Thread on 09:38 - Jun 15 by dmm |
I know! Isn't it great? A party with proper left wing policies like taxing the mega wealthy, providing for the most vulnerable, taking the climate crisis seriously and being prepared to change our outdated electoral system so we have a real representative political system instead of one in name only.
Thanks for pointing this out. |
Haven’t we had a referendum quite recently on changing the voting system from first past the post to proportional representation and as a country we voted against it🤷♂️ | |
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| General Election Thread on 09:50 - Jun 15 with 1425 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| General Election Thread on 09:47 - Jun 15 by loftboy |
Haven’t we had a referendum quite recently on changing the voting system from first past the post to proportional representation and as a country we voted against it🤷♂️ |
Is 14 years recent? A lot of new pissed off voters have been added to the electorate since then. | | | |
| General Election Thread on 10:00 - Jun 15 with 1406 views | Esox_Lucius |
| General Election Thread on 20:30 - Jun 13 by hubble |
I just want to point out the unsavoury and unwarranted accusation in your post:
"Force people (white people I'm guessing would be your preference) to breed more?"
I think SheffieldHoop has been fairly scrupulous in replying to all the different posters who have (apparently) taken umbrage with his point of view, but nothing that he has said warrants your (IMO) snide accusation.
What I find interesting is that the most hostile and ad hominem posts in this thread have come from those who position themselves on the 'liberal left', who are, supposedly, the inclusive and 'progressive' class.
No one has a monopoly on what is 'right' or 'wrong', no one's opinions are more valid than anyone else's and all morals are subjective.
(edit - spelling mistake) [Post edited 13 Jun 20:39]
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I read that as ironic sarcasm. |  |
| The grass is always greener. |
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| General Election Thread on 10:07 - Jun 15 with 1390 views | essextaxiboy |
I heard on the radio yesterday that the Greens would introduce a frequent flyer levy allowing you one levy free flight a year . The next one would would carry a levy of 25 quid and go up from there up to a maximum of a £585 levy on each flight . |  | | |
| General Election Thread on 10:13 - Jun 15 with 1380 views | HAYESBOY |
Just to compare in Europe. Its only us and Belarus who have first past the post voting system. I think at some stage in the future we will go to PR. |  |
| Smells like a trout farm in here |
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| General Election Thread on 10:14 - Jun 15 with 1376 views | FDC |
| General Election Thread on 09:50 - Jun 15 by BazzaInTheLoft |
Is 14 years recent? A lot of new pissed off voters have been added to the electorate since then. |
Yeah a whole new generation of voters since then, that are accurately aware of being locked out of political representation [Post edited 15 Jun 10:14]
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| General Election Thread on 10:16 - Jun 15 with 1374 views | FDC |
| General Election Thread on 10:13 - Jun 15 by HAYESBOY |
Just to compare in Europe. Its only us and Belarus who have first past the post voting system. I think at some stage in the future we will go to PR. |
It'll take some kind of crisis -- but maybe a party with a mega majority on about 35% of the vote should be considered a crisis for democracy | | | |
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