| Ukraine 23:51 - Sep 9 with 83587 views | MrSheen |
Posted with some trepidation as I know Clive doesn’t like multis. Understandably overlooked by the national media, but it seems like the Russians are completely caving in, rope-a-doped as effectively as von Paulus in 1942. Who knows what this might lead to? |  | | |  |
| Ukraine on 18:26 - Feb 22 with 2938 views | Sakura |
| Ukraine on 10:26 - Feb 22 by Juzzie |
Sakura/Russian_bot, you really don't help your cause by using quite infantile and aggressive & accusation-led phrases often in quite a personal manner, it actually dilutes anything you try and say and people will not take you seriously, I don't. That's down to you, no one else.
Then you start going on about David Kelly, WMD, Afghanistan, etc etc which has no direct link to this thread. Sure, it's probably part of a much wider picture but let's just keep this about Ukraine & Putin, eh?
"Same as you believe David Kelly killed himself and they weren't lying about WMD's"
Where on earth have I said I believe David Kelly killed himself? I don't really know much about the situation and have never suggested otherwise.
You just go around putting, no, actually throwing, words into people's mouths that they clearly haven't said or even indicated that's their train of thought. You are the one who keeps bringing up David Kelly, he never even entered my mind on this thread.
I'm totally aware that own own government isn't whiter than white, I even said so just a few posts above but you seem to just ignore things people say and start mudslinging.
I don't pretend to be an expert but I know a bit more about Russia than you think (which is why I sometimes keep coming back to this thread, sorry to everyone else for that!) so again, you keep making assumptions on what people know.
This is the problem with land-locked or predominantly land-locked countries in that they get pulled all over the place in terms of who 'owns' it. However, the Donbas is approx 22% Russian therefore that means 78% are not. It has indeed been a hotly debated issue for decades but the majority of Donbas inhabitants want to be part of Ukraine but because there is a significant minority of Russians who want to align to Russia, Putin is using that along with the whole ideology of de-Nazification and liberation as an excuse to simply grab huge amounts of very resourceful land. He wants to incorporate it back into Russia and reap the resources along with expanding Russia back to it's Soviet days. Then maybe he'll move onto Azerbaijan next? A bit further away from Europe so maybe Europe won't care then.
The world has moved on since the Cold War and Ukraine has been a sovereign state for a long time. He can't handle that.
I don't think he gives a flying fk about being the liberator of people, he keeps living in the past and conveniently goes back to the all mighty Soviet Union because that's when it was at its biggest which suits his rhetoric.
At one point in history, Russia was a lot smaller than it is now. How about he goes back to then? He won't because, again, it's all about land grabbing.
As Clive says, there are plenty of other websites available if you really want to get deeply involved in such topics rather than skimming along the surface here. Please do go and visit some, you may find people far more intelligent than me.
You can reply and carry throwing incorrect assumptions about me I'll give you the satisfaction of having the last word because I'm not going to engage with you anymore on this because you are clearly unable to do so in a reasonable and adult manner. |
Of course it's all linked. If you were running a shop and you were hiring someone and they had stolen money from the till at their last job you would find that relevant.
So if they government lied us into a war before then perhaps they can do it again. Or we should at least question that
And we shouldn't be hyping a complex issue and getting all excited going through Putin speech. I just don't like you being a hype man for an environment that is helping to lead us towards a further escalation in conflict where many thousands of people will die
If you don't have an opinion on Dr David Kelly's "suicide" I suggest you look into that before acting as a hype man for prolonging or escalating this conflict
You definitely know that they lied to us on WMD's so I'm saying question more critically rather than accepting the establishment narratives unquestionably
Don't be so sure what happened in 2014 was entirely innocent in the Wests part. They lied on WMD's and Dr Kelly isn't it possible we are being fed some propaganda here
It's a fact that Ukraine is a cash cow for senior US politicians family connections. But a complicity theorist will overlook all that
Back to the suicide topic as we saw with David Kelly. Another Clinton connection has been suicided in todays news:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11759771/Mystery-Bill-Clinton-advisor-d
Bill Clinton's special advisor Mark Middleton, who signed Jeffrey Epstein into the White House several times, killed himself in May 2022 it's been determined.
He shot himself in the chest apparently then hung himself. But no weapon was found...
And these are the people you are trusting to give us all the facts and to trust it's a coincidence the West has rolled out of funding one conflict then straight into another
If you want to go hype up a conflict where thousands will die a horrible painful death then maybe it’s better you go do that elsewhere rather than directing me elsewhere |  | | |
| Ukraine on 19:52 - Feb 22 with 2853 views | Sonofpugwash |
| Ukraine on 20:20 - Feb 21 by Sakura |
Don’t come on here warmongering with your blinkered view
Remember WMD’s remember David Kelly before you spout your propaganda |
I belive the only WMD's Juzzie is privy to are Weapons of Moss Destruction. |  |
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| Ukraine on 20:25 - Feb 22 with 2833 views | hubble |
| Ukraine on 17:15 - Feb 21 by johnhoop |
Yeah but for a bit of perspective I don’t think Biden has actually started bombing the schit out of the people of Ohio or raping their women. |
I don't think anyone should underestimate the scale of the ecological disaster that has occurred in Ohio, let alone the president of the US - and Pugwash has a pertinent point that should not be swept under the carpet with whataboutery. I personally find it shocking how Biden and his administration pretty much ignored what happened in East Palestine, yet had all the time for his publicity stunt trip to Ukraine and yet more billions to pledge to this escalting proxy war. There's something really off here. |  |
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| Ukraine on 15:02 - Feb 23 with 2617 views | NewBee |
| Ukraine on 10:33 - Feb 21 by Juzzie |
Yeah, the almost media silence over Ohio is damning. If the US wants to come across as being transparent then they have to be transparent, warts 'n all.
The US (and the west) isn't perfect but nor is Russia and the east. Great, two blocs who really are just the same. "West are Nazi's" "east are commies". So what, both are as bad as each other and they just seem to be willy-waving as to who is the worst when really they should be trying to be the best. |
Agree the Ohio business is a scandal etc, though that arsehole Trump trying to make poltical capital out of it is sick-making, seeing as it was his Administration which filleted the USA's environmental protection laws to the extent that the Company behind it felt untouchable.
As for your "two blocs are the same" equivalence, then unless you were being sarcastic(?), I'm really not sure where you were going with that.
For if you were American and expressed such views publicly, including over what's going on in Ukraine, then you would be perfectly free to do so. (The UK as well. Obviously)
Whereas if you were Russian and did the same, you'd be risking being locked up, since that's exactly what is happening over there right now, eg:
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/2/15/russian-journalist-sentenced-to-penal-c
And still people come out with the same, tired old "They're both the same" trope.  [Post edited 23 Feb 2023 15:12]
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| Ukraine on 15:18 - Feb 23 with 2579 views | johnhoop |
| Ukraine on 20:25 - Feb 22 by hubble |
I don't think anyone should underestimate the scale of the ecological disaster that has occurred in Ohio, let alone the president of the US - and Pugwash has a pertinent point that should not be swept under the carpet with whataboutery. I personally find it shocking how Biden and his administration pretty much ignored what happened in East Palestine, yet had all the time for his publicity stunt trip to Ukraine and yet more billions to pledge to this escalting proxy war. There's something really off here. |
“Swept under the carpet with whataboutery” is a bit rich when this is actually a thread about Ukraine, which was what I was trying to bring it back to. Nothing against Pugwash but if anyone was guilty of what you refer to as whataboutery it was him in linking Putin’s invasion to admittedly deplorable but totally unrelated events in the USA. | | | |
| Ukraine on 15:23 - Feb 23 with 2560 views | kensalriser |
See batshit crazy boy's back on a roll. You're giving him too much food, Juzzie, and the more you give him, the more he loves it. |  |
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| Ukraine on 15:41 - Feb 23 with 2517 views | Sonofpugwash |
| Ukraine on 15:18 - Feb 23 by johnhoop |
“Swept under the carpet with whataboutery” is a bit rich when this is actually a thread about Ukraine, which was what I was trying to bring it back to. Nothing against Pugwash but if anyone was guilty of what you refer to as whataboutery it was him in linking Putin’s invasion to admittedly deplorable but totally unrelated events in the USA. |
Guilty as charged.
The ramifications of the invasion go far beyond the Ukraine borders as Mr.Biden and his chums amply illustrate.You cannot ignore them and everything is debateable. [Post edited 23 Feb 2023 16:39]
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| Ukraine on 16:29 - Feb 23 with 2472 views | Juzzie |
| Ukraine on 15:02 - Feb 23 by NewBee |
Agree the Ohio business is a scandal etc, though that arsehole Trump trying to make poltical capital out of it is sick-making, seeing as it was his Administration which filleted the USA's environmental protection laws to the extent that the Company behind it felt untouchable.
As for your "two blocs are the same" equivalence, then unless you were being sarcastic(?), I'm really not sure where you were going with that.
For if you were American and expressed such views publicly, including over what's going on in Ukraine, then you would be perfectly free to do so. (The UK as well. Obviously)
Whereas if you were Russian and did the same, you'd be risking being locked up, since that's exactly what is happening over there right now, eg:
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/2/15/russian-journalist-sentenced-to-penal-c
And still people come out with the same, tired old "They're both the same" trope. [Post edited 23 Feb 2023 15:12]
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The 'two blocs' comment wasn't tongue in cheek as such, it was just a generalisation that IMO world leaders (as in a collective per country rather than an individual) are all pretty much the same. It wasn't aimed at the populace who, of course, are more free in one country than another. [Post edited 23 Feb 2023 20:37]
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| Ukraine on 08:37 - Feb 24 with 2268 views | Sakura |
| Ukraine on 15:23 - Feb 23 by kensalriser |
See batshit crazy boy's back on a roll. You're giving him too much food, Juzzie, and the more you give him, the more he loves it. |
Or you just insult people but don't counter the arguments.
There's a lot of signal in that
Also interesting correlation between those who were bedwetters on Covid and those now so hyped up on this thread for the escalation of a conflict they don't think will directly affect them.
Those same insulted and abused those who pointed out in early 2020 that Covid was an illness similar to flu with a low fatality rate and mainly an illness of the elderly (two and a bit years later even Bill Gates admitted that turned out to be the case).
Reveals the cowardly and selfish nature of so many | | | |
| Ukraine on 08:37 - Feb 24 with 2263 views | Sakura |
| Ukraine on 13:46 - Nov 19 by kensalriser |
Hunter Biden's laptop is just a wånkathon for the MAGA world loons. Otherwise it's a non-story, and a microscopically small one compared to all the shit swirling around Trump. |
Proof you view this as a sport. Just dismissing and it's now proven censorship in an election by the deep state. That is proof you support the current thing. Oppose whatever is outside the MSM narrative. With no care for the consequences as long as they don't directly affect you. You don't care about considering what the end game is here. Just happy to throw thousands of young foreign males to their death while you cheer on your "team" from your sofa
At best it's ignorance or more likely it's a dark core of human nature being revealed | | | |
| Ukraine on 09:47 - Feb 24 with 2157 views | QPR_John |
"now so hyped up on this thread for the escalation of a conflict "
The logic of your argument seems to be let Putin invade whoever he wants as to try and help the victims would be an escalation. | | | |
| Ukraine on 10:32 - Feb 24 with 2098 views | JimmyR |
| Ukraine on 09:47 - Feb 24 by QPR_John |
"now so hyped up on this thread for the escalation of a conflict "
The logic of your argument seems to be let Putin invade whoever he wants as to try and help the victims would be an escalation. |
There’s no logic involved!
Not sure what a bedwetter on covid entails? Face mask and/or vaccination possibly?
Even if that had the strongest possible correlation to wanting escalation in Ukraine (whatever that means) then so what?
Correlation doesn’t prove causation - in the same way that umbrellas don’t cause rain
Despite umbrellas being very highly correlated with rain | | | |
| Ukraine on 11:01 - Feb 24 with 2057 views | Rs_Holy |
| Ukraine on 09:47 - Feb 24 by QPR_John |
"now so hyped up on this thread for the escalation of a conflict "
The logic of your argument seems to be let Putin invade whoever he wants as to try and help the victims would be an escalation. |
I do find it incredible that the Pro Russian folk cannot condem the bombing of civlilian buidings, schools, supermarkets.... the torture of captured foreign soldiers... the rape of women... the looting of shops... the use of criminals for fighting (with the promise of freedom if they survive for 6 months)... the carpet bombing of entire towns and cities.
Putin claims they didn't start the conflict (a lie), he claims the Ukranian government (including its Jewish president) are neo-nazi's (obviously a lie), Russia only uses force to stop the war (obviously a lie), Putin talks about Ukranians being considered expendable and programmed for slaughter (hypocricy), Putin claims the people of Ukraine have become the hostage of the Kyiv regime ... (Volodymyr Zelenskyy polled 73.22% of the vote in the last general election), Putin claims the West intend to transform a local conflict into a global confrontation (another lie). Putin claims the West wants to carve up Russia and steal its vast natural resources (obviously a lie), Putin claims the majority of Russians support the war (they don't have a choice).
“We know they are lying, they know they are lying, they know we know they are lying, we know they know we know they are lying, but they are still lying.” — Aleksandr Isayevich Solzhenitsyn [Post edited 24 Feb 2023 11:28]
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| Ukraine on 11:49 - Feb 24 with 1987 views | Northernr |
Busy on the riverbank today. |  | | |
| Ukraine on 12:37 - Feb 24 with 1864 views | kensalriser |
| Ukraine on 08:37 - Feb 24 by Sakura |
Or you just insult people but don't counter the arguments.
There's a lot of signal in that
Also interesting correlation between those who were bedwetters on Covid and those now so hyped up on this thread for the escalation of a conflict they don't think will directly affect them.
Those same insulted and abused those who pointed out in early 2020 that Covid was an illness similar to flu with a low fatality rate and mainly an illness of the elderly (two and a bit years later even Bill Gates admitted that turned out to be the case).
Reveals the cowardly and selfish nature of so many |
Arguments? You don't have arguments, just a bonkers brew of misinformation, conspiracy theory and buzzwords from far right media. Engaging with your nonsense would be to afford it respect it doesn't warrant. You're an ugly, festering sore on this forum. | |
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| Ukraine on 15:03 - Feb 24 with 1736 views | Boston |
| Ukraine on 11:01 - Feb 24 by Rs_Holy |
I do find it incredible that the Pro Russian folk cannot condem the bombing of civlilian buidings, schools, supermarkets.... the torture of captured foreign soldiers... the rape of women... the looting of shops... the use of criminals for fighting (with the promise of freedom if they survive for 6 months)... the carpet bombing of entire towns and cities.
Putin claims they didn't start the conflict (a lie), he claims the Ukranian government (including its Jewish president) are neo-nazi's (obviously a lie), Russia only uses force to stop the war (obviously a lie), Putin talks about Ukranians being considered expendable and programmed for slaughter (hypocricy), Putin claims the people of Ukraine have become the hostage of the Kyiv regime ... (Volodymyr Zelenskyy polled 73.22% of the vote in the last general election), Putin claims the West intend to transform a local conflict into a global confrontation (another lie). Putin claims the West wants to carve up Russia and steal its vast natural resources (obviously a lie), Putin claims the majority of Russians support the war (they don't have a choice).
“We know they are lying, they know they are lying, they know we know they are lying, we know they know we know they are lying, but they are still lying.” — Aleksandr Isayevich Solzhenitsyn [Post edited 24 Feb 2023 11:28]
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Looking at troop placements and military armament positions, it very much looks like Putin is considering escalation. What with Moldovan's being Romanians, it's not something that should be dismissed out of hand. | |
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| Ukraine on 15:50 - Feb 24 with 1677 views | Sakura |
| Ukraine on 08:37 - Feb 24 by Sakura |
Proof you view this as a sport. Just dismissing and it's now proven censorship in an election by the deep state. That is proof you support the current thing. Oppose whatever is outside the MSM narrative. With no care for the consequences as long as they don't directly affect you. You don't care about considering what the end game is here. Just happy to throw thousands of young foreign males to their death while you cheer on your "team" from your sofa
At best it's ignorance or more likely it's a dark core of human nature being revealed |
My logic is the same as Macron's. We need to give the Russians an exit ramp.
"Build your opponent a golden bridge to retreat across" is the Sun Tzu quote
I just want to see more of that consideration in the discourse then those prepared to sacrifice nothing of note getting excited about a war escalating with no consideration of an exit strategy
Ukraine is very young country which is strategically important to the Russians. Imagine if they were to enter into an alliance with Mexico and how the Yanks would react to that
I just wished some of the posters on here were as brave as they are about the prospect of war as they were in the face of Covid... Makes me question how noble those opinions really are. What are you actually prepared to sacrifice or risk yourself
If that was a concern. The exit strategy from all this conflict might feature more heavily in the discourse than it has [Post edited 24 Feb 2023 15:52]
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| Ukraine on 16:03 - Feb 24 with 1645 views | Sakura |
| Ukraine on 11:01 - Feb 24 by Rs_Holy |
I do find it incredible that the Pro Russian folk cannot condem the bombing of civlilian buidings, schools, supermarkets.... the torture of captured foreign soldiers... the rape of women... the looting of shops... the use of criminals for fighting (with the promise of freedom if they survive for 6 months)... the carpet bombing of entire towns and cities.
Putin claims they didn't start the conflict (a lie), he claims the Ukranian government (including its Jewish president) are neo-nazi's (obviously a lie), Russia only uses force to stop the war (obviously a lie), Putin talks about Ukranians being considered expendable and programmed for slaughter (hypocricy), Putin claims the people of Ukraine have become the hostage of the Kyiv regime ... (Volodymyr Zelenskyy polled 73.22% of the vote in the last general election), Putin claims the West intend to transform a local conflict into a global confrontation (another lie). Putin claims the West wants to carve up Russia and steal its vast natural resources (obviously a lie), Putin claims the majority of Russians support the war (they don't have a choice).
“We know they are lying, they know they are lying, they know we know they are lying, we know they know we know they are lying, but they are still lying.” — Aleksandr Isayevich Solzhenitsyn [Post edited 24 Feb 2023 11:28]
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It’s not about being pro Russia it’s about being Anti-War.
I don’t believe it’s a coincidence that we have rolled out of a conflict and into another.
Rather than rolling out Basra, Helmand, Mosul and Baghdad. Now our news is reeling off Kiev, Luhansk, Mariupol, and Kharkiv.
Back then the Left believer the West was motivated by Oil but now Holy is able to speak with a suspicious degree of certainty that the rare Earth minerals and fertilisers are of no interest to the West as the make believe Fiat currencies evaporate their value
The Guardian back in 2014 had concerns about the Nazi sympathy’s of elements of the Ukrainian forces but again Holy can talk in absolutes that this isn’t a concern anymore
Chinas top diplomat in the Kremlin having photos with Putin this week. But you can say with certainty that’s a coincidence and the West have no interest in escalating the conflict wider. Don’t worry about Pelosi’s trips to Taiwan or sudden withdrawals of all Americans working in Semi con industry in China…
You know for certain the Ukrainians have only ever acted with discipline and it’s never matched any negative actions on the Russian side…
Talking in certainties where there are none is an odd thing to do | | | |
| Ukraine on 18:07 - Feb 24 with 1535 views | swisscottage |
| Ukraine on 16:03 - Feb 24 by Sakura |
It’s not about being pro Russia it’s about being Anti-War.
I don’t believe it’s a coincidence that we have rolled out of a conflict and into another.
Rather than rolling out Basra, Helmand, Mosul and Baghdad. Now our news is reeling off Kiev, Luhansk, Mariupol, and Kharkiv.
Back then the Left believer the West was motivated by Oil but now Holy is able to speak with a suspicious degree of certainty that the rare Earth minerals and fertilisers are of no interest to the West as the make believe Fiat currencies evaporate their value
The Guardian back in 2014 had concerns about the Nazi sympathy’s of elements of the Ukrainian forces but again Holy can talk in absolutes that this isn’t a concern anymore
Chinas top diplomat in the Kremlin having photos with Putin this week. But you can say with certainty that’s a coincidence and the West have no interest in escalating the conflict wider. Don’t worry about Pelosi’s trips to Taiwan or sudden withdrawals of all Americans working in Semi con industry in China…
You know for certain the Ukrainians have only ever acted with discipline and it’s never matched any negative actions on the Russian side…
Talking in certainties where there are none is an odd thing to do |
Sakura,
You can be anti-war whilst also staunchly defensive of Ukrainians right to not being murdered, raped, forcibly relocated and homes stolen or destroyed and ultimately forced from the country of your birth.
You can be anti-war whilst also being staunchly against Russia not getting a free pass at anything they want to take by force.
You can be anti-war whilst also believing the world will be a better place if Russia ruling nationalists/imperialists finally gets the message that not everything is theirs to take just because they believe it is.
Unless your idea of anti-war means anyone can take what they want by force with only a stern word said against them.
With humans being as they are. With people (like yourself?) holding to a single world view and anyone else's views being secondary because they must be wrong. The best means of not having to fight a war, is to have defences such that no war is worth fighting. Being anti-war does not mean being anti-the ability to defend yourself or your friends or family from a bully, unless you purely subscribe to the ideology of turn the other cheek, bend over and take it.
At the end of the day its safe to say that many of the actors in the West may have other motives for supporting Ukraine other than the defence of sovereignty and furthering the their democratic decisions to align themselves more closely with the EU, and the US. Similarly there are actors in the west paid for by Russia to disrupt, subvert, and undermine any group policy or ide, that does not further their Nationalist Imperialist agenda
However, when Russia's own nationalist manifesto and agenda is held up, it becomes almost irrelevant why those who are supporting Ukraine militarily are doing so, it is the fact they are doing so is important.
To paint everyone who doesn't subscribe to your world view as brainwashed and ignorant, is typically arrogant of someone from one extreme or the other. Its why Momentum .. didn't ... well... gain ... enough momentum at the end of the day. Being constantly preached to by the arrogance and self righteousness of the far left and far right is not something that opens people up to those ideas.
Everything you have written has had a single focus of painting everyone who supports Ukraine as evil or brainwashed and saying that their reason's for doing so must be ulterior, but hardly a word about what Putin is doing that makes all that pale into insignificance. One could argue that single point of focus is actually supportive of Russa's invasion and nationalist imperialistic agenda, purely by omission, diversion and subversive messaging ..
If you honestly believe that Putin ordered the invasion of Ukraine in 'defence' of Russia, you obviously have been drinking his coolaid, and if you continue on your single point of view diatribes and attacks on anyone who doesn't see things as you do, you just get lumped in to the category of conspiracy theorist or far left or right crony and lose any genuine message you might try to get across. | | | |
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