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It’s like looking forward to your holiday when you were seven. I have racking to assemble, and because I’m feckin’ useless at that sort of thing, it will take around 3 days to complete. Dog needs walking at least 6 times if I can fit it in. Grass is cut, that’s a bugger because there’s a few minutes there. Shopping being delivered so we can’t waste an hour or two there. Can’t start drinking yet.
Any tips?
Did I ever mention that I was in Minder?
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Countdown to Sunday. on 13:05 - Jul 9 with 979 views
And as I said, it is done across the globe by a number of different nationalities a whole array of different sports.
For example, have you seen a major fight involving a Mexican? The fans always boo the National Anthem of their opponent regardless of where he is from. American fans are also equally guilty as are fans from across the globe.
We don't have discussions within boxing about it because it is accepted as tribalism.
Why is there a difference? Because, and this goes back to the points I raised to Antti, although Boxing has seen an increase in middle-class fans, those who aren't traditional fans accept the culture they found. ​
I've never been offended when I've heard GSTQ being booed and no-one I spoke to who was also there was offended either. Likewise, I've never spoken to friends/family who have been offended when their anthem was booed by England or other fans.
It could be that we're unique and the ones at odds with the general consensus but I suspect we're not and the offended on behalf of others - whose intentions are admirable if misplaced - need to possibly stop and ask themselves if they have the right to speak for and on behalf of others.
Interesting discussion.
you are correct the Booing of national anthems happens elsewhere
Thats not to say its right though and I would like to think we are moving away from that as a society even though i am working class
I really want us to win on sunday in a way i didnt in the Rooney/Terry era because i would have found it hard for those players to be lauded in the same way as Moore/Hurst/Stiles etc
This squad appear much more deserving to me as does the manager. I have arranged to watch the game with my father and realise how lucky i am that i still have the opportunity to do so 53 years after he took me to LR for our first game together
Sterling or Sako (Greenford boy) getting a winner would be the icing on the cake but ill take one bouncing in off Maguire's arse if thats what it takes
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Countdown to Sunday. on 13:06 - Jul 9 with 978 views
The roots are very much with the upper class & public schools, thus all the early winners of the FA Cup came from that class. I will certainly agree that this changed with the advent of professionalism & brought about the saying "Football is for gentlemen but played by hooligans & Rugby is for hooligans & played by gentlemen".
The middle class, at least the ones I know, have always been footballing people & not interested in Rugby Union. It was very much the culture of the youth of the middle class in the '60's to combine football with fighting on the terraces.
"It was very much the culture of the youth of the middle class in the '60's to combine football with fighting on the terraces"
I was always surprised by some of the professions of those involved in that scene...! At my first ever job a leading financial director from a relatively well-to-do background was heavily involved with Millwall's firm and was even named in the papers after morning raids!
I know Antti questioned the widespread mockery of the middle class but I honestly don't remember hearing any complaints about those who were attending before Euro 96. Taking the mickey and calling them posh because of where they tended to sit in the ground? Definitely but more than accepted by most if not all.
The problem seems to be exclusively with those who came after '96 whether it was jumping on a bandwagon or younger who maybe weren't even alive at the time. They abhor too much of working class culture which they cant relate too and rather just accept it, however reluctantly, take great strides to condemn or stop it.
If I started attended Rugby Union matches - hardly likely as I can't stand the sport - I would never consider trying to change the culture because I can't relate to it. The problem is that the post 96 Middle class seem, en masse, self-righteous and, ironically, incredibly intolerant.
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Countdown to Sunday. on 13:18 - Jul 9 with 950 views
"It was very much the culture of the youth of the middle class in the '60's to combine football with fighting on the terraces"
I was always surprised by some of the professions of those involved in that scene...! At my first ever job a leading financial director from a relatively well-to-do background was heavily involved with Millwall's firm and was even named in the papers after morning raids!
I know Antti questioned the widespread mockery of the middle class but I honestly don't remember hearing any complaints about those who were attending before Euro 96. Taking the mickey and calling them posh because of where they tended to sit in the ground? Definitely but more than accepted by most if not all.
The problem seems to be exclusively with those who came after '96 whether it was jumping on a bandwagon or younger who maybe weren't even alive at the time. They abhor too much of working class culture which they cant relate too and rather just accept it, however reluctantly, take great strides to condemn or stop it.
If I started attended Rugby Union matches - hardly likely as I can't stand the sport - I would never consider trying to change the culture because I can't relate to it. The problem is that the post 96 Middle class seem, en masse, self-righteous and, ironically, incredibly intolerant.
This is an extract from a article on Novara...
"These kinds of fuzzy feelings lead to people being easily seduced by the patriotic nature of international football. Outside of a successful tournament context, supporting England is seen as unfashionable, best left to bald, white men draped in the St George’s flag. But after a couple of victories, the wider public (understandably) wants a part in the collective joy. Suddenly, it becomes acceptable to get behind the national team, and, as a result, the supposedly necessary patriotism of the game starts to take on a new form. The key difference here seems to come down to class background; as soon as middle-class people get involved, the patriotism that was previously seen as vulgar quickly becomes palatable. "
Two things:
* This is a perfect example of how some on the left are considered out of touch with the working-class but that's a whole different argument and could open up a can of worms.
* This self righteousness is what I mean.
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Countdown to Sunday. on 13:58 - Jul 9 with 876 views
"These kinds of fuzzy feelings lead to people being easily seduced by the patriotic nature of international football. Outside of a successful tournament context, supporting England is seen as unfashionable, best left to bald, white men draped in the St George’s flag. But after a couple of victories, the wider public (understandably) wants a part in the collective joy. Suddenly, it becomes acceptable to get behind the national team, and, as a result, the supposedly necessary patriotism of the game starts to take on a new form. The key difference here seems to come down to class background; as soon as middle-class people get involved, the patriotism that was previously seen as vulgar quickly becomes palatable. "
Two things:
* This is a perfect example of how some on the left are considered out of touch with the working-class but that's a whole different argument and could open up a can of worms.
* This self righteousness is what I mean.
In my 20s or 30s I would have been massively hyped for England to win. Now at 50 I'm oddly not fussed at all. I like both the England and Italy teams, I think they've been the best in the competition and are very similar really, so it's the right final.
Either way the achievements of Gareth Southgate and the team in delivering consistent quality at this level make a welcome change to the previous 40 years.
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Countdown to Sunday. on 13:58 - Jul 9 with 876 views
I think it's quite possible that this 'damage to our reputation' may be exaggerated by some to be completely honest.
If we were still relatively popular across the continent despite idiots rampaging through towns and cities - and ferries if they were West Ham/Man Utd fans - whenever England or club sides played abroad, I cant see booing National Anthems or some people booing the knee is having as big an impact as some think. Especially when most see it as odd rather than offensive if they don't find it pantomime esque.
Even Brexit hasn't made us as unpopular as some suspect with many friends I speak to - from a whole array of countries - saying they and most of their friends/family are envious of us leaving the bloc and hopeful for their own referendums to do so.
I think a big problem here is the persistence in trying to guess what others may be thinking about us as those who do have a habit of getting it wrong.
[Post edited 9 Jul 2021 11:42]
I think it's far more likely that other countries will see it as offensive before they'll see it as pantomimesque (difficult word to spell that!...)
Mexico booing America in the boxing is an example, yes, but I don't think these other examples hold up. I lived in America for a long time (hence the name) and Americans can be guilty of many things but booing other countries anthems - honestly never heard it - if anything they're pretty up tight about that stuff. No doubt examples can be found if one digs around for long enough but it's just not the norm for most countries, and I don't even remember there being much of it in this country in the past.
I think the booing just needs to be accepted as out of order, corrected and moved on from. It would be very unfortunate if it happens in any numbers against Italy. Thankfully against Denmark it was a minority, especially compared to the Germany game.
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Countdown to Sunday. on 14:07 - Jul 9 with 861 views
Countdown to Sunday. on 13:58 - Jul 9 by BklynRanger
I think it's far more likely that other countries will see it as offensive before they'll see it as pantomimesque (difficult word to spell that!...)
Mexico booing America in the boxing is an example, yes, but I don't think these other examples hold up. I lived in America for a long time (hence the name) and Americans can be guilty of many things but booing other countries anthems - honestly never heard it - if anything they're pretty up tight about that stuff. No doubt examples can be found if one digs around for long enough but it's just not the norm for most countries, and I don't even remember there being much of it in this country in the past.
I think the booing just needs to be accepted as out of order, corrected and moved on from. It would be very unfortunate if it happens in any numbers against Italy. Thankfully against Denmark it was a minority, especially compared to the Germany game.
The booing was noted in European media - nobody is particularly horrified by it but it looks a bit boorish and anachronistic, which is broadly in line with the impression of the UK at the moment.
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Countdown to Sunday. on 14:07 - Jul 9 with 861 views
And as I said, it is done across the globe by a number of different nationalities a whole array of different sports.
For example, have you seen a major fight involving a Mexican? The fans always boo the National Anthem of their opponent regardless of where he is from. American fans are also equally guilty as are fans from across the globe.
We don't have discussions within boxing about it because it is accepted as tribalism.
Why is there a difference? Because, and this goes back to the points I raised to Antti, although Boxing has seen an increase in middle-class fans, those who aren't traditional fans accept the culture they found. ​
I've never been offended when I've heard GSTQ being booed and no-one I spoke to who was also there was offended either. Likewise, I've never spoken to friends/family who have been offended when their anthem was booed by England or other fans.
It could be that we're unique and the ones at odds with the general consensus but I suspect we're not and the offended on behalf of others - whose intentions are admirable if misplaced - need to possibly stop and ask themselves if they have the right to speak for and on behalf of others.
Interesting discussion.
Not sure middle class or a lack of acceptance of traditions or culture has anything to do with it.
My dad was working class and a dyed in the wool old school supporter - he started out supporting Southend as a teenager in the 1940s and 1950s - and he was always heavily opposed to booing anthems.
When I queried why as a kid when he was happy for me to boo, eg Chelsea players he pointed out that it's one thing to boo a clubor a player, it's quite another thing to boo a country and that's where I've always taken my lead.
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Countdown to Sunday. on 14:09 - Jul 9 with 860 views
Some interesting opinions and viewpoints posted over this and its been a pleasant discussion. Nice to see opposing views being exchanged without resorting to mud slinging or insults
Countdown to Sunday. on 13:58 - Jul 9 by BklynRanger
I think it's far more likely that other countries will see it as offensive before they'll see it as pantomimesque (difficult word to spell that!...)
Mexico booing America in the boxing is an example, yes, but I don't think these other examples hold up. I lived in America for a long time (hence the name) and Americans can be guilty of many things but booing other countries anthems - honestly never heard it - if anything they're pretty up tight about that stuff. No doubt examples can be found if one digs around for long enough but it's just not the norm for most countries, and I don't even remember there being much of it in this country in the past.
I think the booing just needs to be accepted as out of order, corrected and moved on from. It would be very unfortunate if it happens in any numbers against Italy. Thankfully against Denmark it was a minority, especially compared to the Germany game.
It’s just childish and stupid.Do these people think the opposition will be put off by it?Do they do it because their mate tells them to?Or are they just idiots who’ve drunk too much beer?
I love the Italian anthem and the way it builds into a great ending.It’s so much more inspiring than our own one that just rattles on for a bit.I’ve been in the stadio Olimpico for the rugby and heard a half full stadium sing it,and it certainly was uplifting for the crowd and the team.And it would show us up badly if there was booing on Sunday night during their anthem.
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Countdown to Sunday. on 14:31 - Jul 9 with 821 views
It’s just childish and stupid.Do these people think the opposition will be put off by it?Do they do it because their mate tells them to?Or are they just idiots who’ve drunk too much beer?
I love the Italian anthem and the way it builds into a great ending.It’s so much more inspiring than our own one that just rattles on for a bit.I’ve been in the stadio Olimpico for the rugby and heard a half full stadium sing it,and it certainly was uplifting for the crowd and the team.And it would show us up badly if there was booing on Sunday night during their anthem.
"Do these people think the opposition will be put off by it?Do they do it because their mate tells them to?Or are they just idiots who’ve drunk too much beer?"
I don't think anyone who does it because they think it will put off the opposition and I'm yet to be convinced, anyway, that any team would be put off or, on the other hand, motivated.
As for the reasons.
I think we need to take Scotland as a separate matter. The booing of Flower of Scotland is incredibly passionate and motivated by hatred. I won't deny that.
I appreciate that others will say that it doesn't get booed by England fans at Twickenham or Murrayfield, but those, especially at the latter aren't at risk of being ambushed or attacked by Scottish fans as the football fans are so the atmospheres are incomparable.
For the record, the booing of GSTQ by Scottish fans is equally passionate and motivated by hatred and when singing it at Hampden Park in 2017 we had to dodge coins, bottles and, bizarrely, a seat (what did they do for 90 minutes?) being thrown at us. There's a reason why we were kept back at both Celtic Park in 2014 and Hampden in 2017 for almost an hour.
I'm keen to avoid trying speak on behalf of others so can only relay opinion and snippets of what I have heard.
Some people boo because of a sense of tribalism.
Some people boo because it is part of a 'pantomime' tradition
Some people boo because they think they are taking the mickey.
Some people boo because they think it is funny.
I doubt anyone boos because they are told to do so by mates and as for whether they are idiots or not, well, that's up to you to decide whether or not you think they are and you are entitled to form an opinion.
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Countdown to Sunday. on 14:34 - Jul 9 with 818 views
Some interesting opinions and viewpoints posted over this and its been a pleasant discussion. Nice to see opposing views being exchanged without resorting to mud slinging or insults
Agree with that 80's boy but me thinks you are trying to defend the indefensible.
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Countdown to Sunday. on 14:36 - Jul 9 with 815 views
I try to ignore the hype as I know how it feels to experience defeat when I've invested too much of my emotions in a game. It's good to expect very little but just hope that you might possibly get pleasantly surprised? Nevertheless, I'm like a kid today, nervous and very excited speculating on what might happen on Sunday and wondering what it might feel like?.
Inevitably, the first question posed in interviews with sports folk when they've just won something is, how do they feel? I guess that the interview is part of the process to help the successful person/ team come to terms with what they've achieved, but I'm not always interested in their answer. Nevertheless, I have sometimes tried to imagine how Bobby Moore felt in 1966 as he prepared to lead his team up the steps to receive the Jules Rimet trophy. I remember him saying that he looked up the stairs and there was the Queen! - in bright yellow waiting for him. What a wonderful moment that must have been.
PS - Before receiving the Cup, he saw that she was wearing white gloves, so he hurriedly wiped his own sweaty mitts on the velvet of the Royal Box.
[Post edited 9 Jul 2021 17:13]
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Countdown to Sunday. on 14:37 - Jul 9 with 810 views
I try to ignore the hype as I know how it feels to experience defeat when I've invested too much of my emotions in a game. It's good to expect very little but just hope that you might possibly get pleasantly surprised? Nevertheless, I'm like a kid today, nervous and very excited speculating on what might happen on Sunday and wondering what it might feel like?.
Inevitably, the first question posed in interviews with sports folk when they've just won something is, how do they feel? I guess that the interview is part of the process to help the successful person/ team come to terms with what they've achieved, but I'm not always interested in their answer. Nevertheless, I have sometimes tried to imagine how Bobby Moore felt in 1966 as he prepared to lead his team up the steps to receive the Jules Rimet trophy. I remember him saying that he looked up the stairs and there was the Queen! - in bright yellow waiting for him. What a wonderful moment that must have been.
PS - Before receiving the Cup, he saw that she was wearing white gloves, so he hurriedly wiped his own sweaty mitts on the velvet of the Royal Box.
[Post edited 9 Jul 2021 17:13]
I think it was caught on film of him wiping his hands before meeting the queen.
1
Countdown to Sunday. on 14:53 - Jul 9 with 770 views
I try to ignore the hype as I know how it feels to experience defeat when I've invested too much of my emotions in a game. It's good to expect very little but just hope that you might possibly get pleasantly surprised? Nevertheless, I'm like a kid today, nervous and very excited speculating on what might happen on Sunday and wondering what it might feel like?.
Inevitably, the first question posed in interviews with sports folk when they've just won something is, how do they feel? I guess that the interview is part of the process to help the successful person/ team come to terms with what they've achieved, but I'm not always interested in their answer. Nevertheless, I have sometimes tried to imagine how Bobby Moore felt in 1966 as he prepared to lead his team up the steps to receive the Jules Rimet trophy. I remember him saying that he looked up the stairs and there was the Queen! - in bright yellow waiting for him. What a wonderful moment that must have been.
PS - Before receiving the Cup, he saw that she was wearing white gloves, so he hurriedly wiped his own sweaty mitts on the velvet of the Royal Box.
[Post edited 9 Jul 2021 17:13]
I always want the players to just say feck off and let them enjoy the moment, far too often you see a team doing a huddle or something and one of the players is stuck saying I feel great to a reporter
1
Countdown to Sunday. on 15:06 - Jul 9 with 736 views
And as I said, it is done across the globe by a number of different nationalities a whole array of different sports.
For example, have you seen a major fight involving a Mexican? The fans always boo the National Anthem of their opponent regardless of where he is from. American fans are also equally guilty as are fans from across the globe.
We don't have discussions within boxing about it because it is accepted as tribalism.
Why is there a difference? Because, and this goes back to the points I raised to Antti, although Boxing has seen an increase in middle-class fans, those who aren't traditional fans accept the culture they found. ​
I've never been offended when I've heard GSTQ being booed and no-one I spoke to who was also there was offended either. Likewise, I've never spoken to friends/family who have been offended when their anthem was booed by England or other fans.
It could be that we're unique and the ones at odds with the general consensus but I suspect we're not and the offended on behalf of others - whose intentions are admirable if misplaced - need to possibly stop and ask themselves if they have the right to speak for and on behalf of others.
Interesting discussion.
I think it's irrelevant what other countries might or might not do and it's irrelevant whether you personally are offended or not.
I'd love to know exactly what aspects of football the 'middle classes' (whatever that means), specifically, changed. While I agree to some degree atmospheres are different now, I'm not sure that's down to 'the middle classes', and I also, having attended football since the 70s, don't think it's particularly worse. Safe standing, when it comes, will help, of course, but that was not exactly something changed by the middle classes after 1996.
Stadiums needed updating - if you can't see that from the various disasters of the 80s you must be blind. I was a kid growing up in the 70s and 80s and experienced some fantastic atmospheres - and also some absolutely horrible ones - in both senses of dull/quiet and, far worse, intimidating and violent. If you're pining for those days, each to their own, but I'm delighted that the times I had to run, as a child, from yobs, do not really occur today. That's not about effing class, either, it's about decent people and thugs. This lazy stereotyping of 'the middle classes' in your posts is a bit tiresome tbh.
I never said people didn't have the 'right' to boo. But it's disrespectful, and embarrassing, and pathetic. That's my 'freedom' to believe that, while accepting not 'everyone' will be offended by it.
I remember I think it was Venables was the first manager to try and stop it and appealed to the very reasonable idea that booing the anthem only serves to motivate the opposition. Still, it's all 'banter' isn't it? It's always just good banter. Just doesn;t seem a lot to ask to put aside the banter for 45 seconds at the start of a match, that's all. Maybe I'm wrong. Or just too 'middle class'.
Bare bones.
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Countdown to Sunday. on 16:33 - Jul 9 with 674 views
I try to ignore the hype as I know how it feels to experience defeat when I've invested too much of my emotions in a game. It's good to expect very little but just hope that you might possibly get pleasantly surprised? Nevertheless, I'm like a kid today, nervous and very excited speculating on what might happen on Sunday and wondering what it might feel like?.
Inevitably, the first question posed in interviews with sports folk when they've just won something is, how do they feel? I guess that the interview is part of the process to help the successful person/ team come to terms with what they've achieved, but I'm not always interested in their answer. Nevertheless, I have sometimes tried to imagine how Bobby Moore felt in 1966 as he prepared to lead his team up the steps to receive the Jules Rimet trophy. I remember him saying that he looked up the stairs and there was the Queen! - in bright yellow waiting for him. What a wonderful moment that must have been.
PS - Before receiving the Cup, he saw that she was wearing white gloves, so he hurriedly wiped his own sweaty mitts on the velvet of the Royal Box.
[Post edited 9 Jul 2021 17:13]
Not allegedly! He told that story and you can see it if you watch the footage!
Bare bones.
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Countdown to Sunday. on 16:37 - Jul 9 with 664 views
There's always been a streak of competitive vileness in football support, to which regular attendees are desensitised, but which are staggeringly offensive to outsiders who don't get the sort-of-joking involved. It's not just here (Munich air disaster, Jimmy Savile, Hillsborough), you can pick it up in the Maradona documentary when Napoli are playing at Juventus, Ajax at Feyenoord, etc. No-one really believes in it, the point is to give offence, the more the better.
I remember a Grimsby-supporting friend telling me how a meaningless end-of-season game at Middlesbrough was greatly enlivened when some of the 150-odd away fans started singing "What's it like to f*** your kids?" at the home fans during the Cleveland child abuse scandal...which as it transpired was an example of the professional classes reflexively thinking the worst of people unlike them. I was impressed by their daring as a teenager, though I would be disturbed by their train of thought now.
Football fans are participants in the spectacle, rather than onlookers, and incredibly sensitive to deception and faking, at least if not in the service of their team. Players can take a knee if they want to, though I think their gesture is as effective as if they protested about the price of copper. I won't boo them any more than I would have told my kids that their art was rubbish, I like them personally and respect their motivation, even if I don't agree with their actions. Not everyone would be as tactful/over-sensitive/hypocritical (delete as applicable).
On the anthems, I went to all England's Euro'96 games, and it is noticeable that the booing dropped away steadily. It was as if people (an intractably disgraceful minority excepted...Rule Britannia with a Nazi salute, no surprise for guessing which club they supported) became accustomed to enjoying being part of an international event rather than thinking it was their duty to behave in a hostile way.
[Post edited 9 Jul 2021 17:30]
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Countdown to Sunday. on 17:59 - Jul 9 with 580 views
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