| Guns on the Streets 17:32 - Nov 16 with 6506 views | exiled_dictator |
sometimes you see armed policemen.
they were clear to see during the 2012 olympics, and are around and about the embassies here in kensington.
and now they will be visible during the england/france match at wembley tomorrow.
jeremy corbyn was asked by bbc political editor laura kuenssberg whether he would be happy to order police or the military to shoot to kill if there was a similar attack on britain's streets.
corbyn said: "i'm not happy with the shoot-to-kill policy in general - I think that is quite dangerous and I think can often can be counterproductive.
"i think you have to have security that prevents people firing off weapons where you can, there are various degrees for doing things as we know.
"but the idea you end up with a war on the streets is not a good thing."
given the recent events in paris, and the threat from isis that london is a genuine and valid target for attack, would you be in favour of not only having more armed police and army on the streets, but having them visible so you can see them, as opposed to them being in the shadows?
these terrorists have been brainwashed and genuinely believe in life after a violent death; i believe in life before death. if they are happy to meet their makers, and have 72 fukking ugly hairy virgins waiting for them, then i am only too happy to see them off on their way with a bullet to the head or other vital organ.
i am reluctant to have a serious shoot out on the streets of london, but if the police are there to defend us, and we are not allowed to legally arm ourselves, then trained officers should not hesitate to pull the trigger.
i realise that some people will find this attitude absolutely abhorrent, and genuinely believe that dialogue is the way forward, but these cancerous shits are already infesting europe, poisoning our peaceful and tolerant way of life. they want nothing more that confrontation, to instil fear into the local communities, and push forward with their agenda of islamifying europe under one caliphate and sharia law.
it is clear to me that this open arms policy is being taken advantage of by them, and if policies towards them don't change, then things will only get more dangerous for all law obiding people just looking to live a peaceful life.
the restaurant came under 'attack' from drunken group of about 10 males on saturday night, clearly upset by the events in paris. maybe they were just looking for a cheap and easy target, and saw a muslim owned establishment as that objective. it is sad, but i can sort of understand their frustration.
and i reiterate again, the vast majority of muslims in the uk want nothing to do with these murderous bastards, who deserve nothing less than hell. we do educate our children to be tolerant and follow a proper path in life. we do look out to members of our communities who might be a risk and weak towards these ideological temptations, and we do have open dialogue with the police and other security forces. just because you don't see it does not mean that it does not happen. but there are always week members of a flock that need help. in all communities in society.
we pray for peace, but have to prepare for all scenarios.
you will understand that i need to keep a low profile during these challenging times for us all, but do not judge a whole community or religion based on the actions of a very small minority.
may the coming days and weeks be filled with peace and more joyful times leading upto the christmas festivities. |  |
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| Guns on the Streets on 22:01 - Nov 16 with 1422 views | PunteR |
| Guns on the Streets on 21:34 - Nov 16 by Deano19766 |
Can I ask one question, and it's a genuine one. Why are the majority of these attacks all over the world linked to Islam as opposed to any other group? It simply cannot be a coincidence. I am no expert on Islam of course, but I can only question what I see in front of me. And I see that Islam must clearly has some serious flaw (more so than other religions, which are all bullsh!t as well I must add but each to their own) that causes all these people to do as they do, unless somebody can genuinely explain different?
If Islam was a football club whose fans were rioting every weekend and killing people the club would be shut down. Following a football club is akin to a belief. Why should religion be treated any differently? Sorry a bit of a crap analogy, but the only one I could think of quickly off the top of my head.
With regards guns, probably a bad idea to arm all coppers [Post edited 16 Nov 2015 21:42]
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Because the Islamic state is taking some extreme views of the Muslim faith and using it to wage war on the rest of the world. They want genocide basically.
The all American "we do not negotiate with terrorists " is completely futile because ISIS don't want to negotiate anyway.
I guess the Muslim religion is like the Christian religion where its fractured into lots of groups with their own agendas.
The bible and the koran both talk about the end of the world. These terrorists are trying to fast track it. Short termism,it will never work..
Thats how i'm seeing it at the moment,correct me if i'm wrong. |  |
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| Guns on the Streets on 22:05 - Nov 16 with 1412 views | Deano19766 |
| Guns on the Streets on 21:59 - Nov 16 by BazzaInTheLoft |
I agree that people wouldn't see QPR that way and understandably. But would it be fair to you and me and the normal people if they closed QPR down? |
No it wouldn't be fair on us, but unfortunately that would be tough luck on our part. Why should our wishes be put above the safety of the majority? I would be disappointed, but I would understand. Or perhaps I would walk down the street burning effigies of other clubs, burning banners of their badges, shouting death to their fans just so I could (quite unreasonably in the face of the evidence) get my way.......NOT [Post edited 16 Nov 2015 22:07]
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| Guns on the Streets on 22:07 - Nov 16 with 1404 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Guns on the Streets on 22:05 - Nov 16 by Deano19766 |
No it wouldn't be fair on us, but unfortunately that would be tough luck on our part. Why should our wishes be put above the safety of the majority? I would be disappointed, but I would understand. Or perhaps I would walk down the street burning effigies of other clubs, burning banners of their badges, shouting death to their fans just so I could (quite unreasonably in the face of the evidence) get my way.......NOT [Post edited 16 Nov 2015 22:07]
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But the muslim fella you brought your paper from or the geezer opposite you in the office aren't doing that are they? [Post edited 16 Nov 2015 22:08]
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| Guns on the Streets on 22:09 - Nov 16 with 1393 views | Deano19766 |
| Guns on the Streets on 22:01 - Nov 16 by PunteR |
Because the Islamic state is taking some extreme views of the Muslim faith and using it to wage war on the rest of the world. They want genocide basically.
The all American "we do not negotiate with terrorists " is completely futile because ISIS don't want to negotiate anyway.
I guess the Muslim religion is like the Christian religion where its fractured into lots of groups with their own agendas.
The bible and the koran both talk about the end of the world. These terrorists are trying to fast track it. Short termism,it will never work..
Thats how i'm seeing it at the moment,correct me if i'm wrong. |
"The extreme view of the Islamic faith". So where are the leaders of other faiths harnessing the extreme views of their followers and waging war across the globe? They're not. And that's my point. It's only affecting one religion. Why is that? I have not seen anybody explain it. All I have heard is people say Islam is a religion of peace. Yet they offer no explanation for the current situation. | | | |
| Guns on the Streets on 22:12 - Nov 16 with 1385 views | Deano19766 |
| Guns on the Streets on 22:07 - Nov 16 by BazzaInTheLoft |
But the muslim fella you brought your paper from or the geezer opposite you in the office aren't doing that are they? [Post edited 16 Nov 2015 22:08]
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No they're not (not sure what your point is there). But my question is why are there so many that are i.e. why are there hundreds of thousands across the globe who are all affiliated to one religion waging war against the rest of us? Why are there not hundreds of thousands of followers of other religions doing the same? Without a suitable explanation, I can only assume that the religion itself is the problem (and, for the avoidance of doubt, I would say the same be it any group, religious or otherwise) [Post edited 16 Nov 2015 22:14]
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| Guns on the Streets on 22:14 - Nov 16 with 1379 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Guns on the Streets on 22:09 - Nov 16 by Deano19766 |
"The extreme view of the Islamic faith". So where are the leaders of other faiths harnessing the extreme views of their followers and waging war across the globe? They're not. And that's my point. It's only affecting one religion. Why is that? I have not seen anybody explain it. All I have heard is people say Islam is a religion of peace. Yet they offer no explanation for the current situation. |
Christians in Serbia slaughtered Muslims in Serbrenica not so long ago. Christians are killing Muslims in Central African Republic at the moment. Some Catholics in the 30s backed the third reich.
It's just Islam's time right now. [Post edited 16 Nov 2015 22:16]
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| (No subject) (n/t) on 22:17 - Nov 16 with 1364 views | Deano19766 |
| Guns on the Streets on 22:14 - Nov 16 by BazzaInTheLoft |
Christians in Serbia slaughtered Muslims in Serbrenica not so long ago. Christians are killing Muslims in Central African Republic at the moment. Some Catholics in the 30s backed the third reich.
It's just Islam's time right now. [Post edited 16 Nov 2015 22:16]
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Good point in your last sentence. It is Islams time right now. So why can't we say right now that Islam is a problem rather than all having to nod in agreement when we are told this is nothing to do with Islam and it is the religion of peace? [Post edited 16 Nov 2015 22:26]
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| Guns on the Streets on 22:26 - Nov 16 with 1342 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| (No subject) (n/t) on 22:17 - Nov 16 by Deano19766 |
Good point in your last sentence. It is Islams time right now. So why can't we say right now that Islam is a problem rather than all having to nod in agreement when we are told this is nothing to do with Islam and it is the religion of peace? [Post edited 16 Nov 2015 22:26]
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Islam covers a massive scale of people and ideas.
On one end you have Konnie Huq and the other you have Abu Bakr al Baghdadi. Both adherents to their own idea of Islam but you wouldn't call Konnie Huq dangerous would you?
The book itself is full of violent stuff, true, as is the Bible. | | | |
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| Guns on the Streets on 22:32 - Nov 16 with 1329 views | Deano19766 |
| Guns on the Streets on 22:26 - Nov 16 by BazzaInTheLoft |
Islam covers a massive scale of people and ideas.
On one end you have Konnie Huq and the other you have Abu Bakr al Baghdadi. Both adherents to their own idea of Islam but you wouldn't call Konnie Huq dangerous would you?
The book itself is full of violent stuff, true, as is the Bible. |
QPR has a diverse fanbase. Let's say it was the biggest club in the world and it had an element who murdered people every week (even if that element was a very small minority but due to its worldwide numbers it was still a significant number), would the public at large accept that the club should continue just to keep the rest of us who do no harm happy? Would they heck. We'd be banned from everything and forced to close, and rightly so.
Still doesn't explain why all the nutters are currently attached to Islam as opposed to other religions. I have seen noone anywhere offer a genuine explanation. All I see/hear is people making statements without supporting fact. [Post edited 16 Nov 2015 22:34]
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| Guns on the Streets on 22:38 - Nov 16 with 1308 views | FredManRave |
| Guns on the Streets on 21:23 - Nov 16 by PunteR |
Just look at America. Guns doesn't help them.
Its a no for me. |
We had guns in the boardroom and look how that turned out, so it's a no from me. [Post edited 16 Nov 2015 22:40]
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| Guns on the Streets on 22:40 - Nov 16 with 1307 views | PunteR |
| Guns on the Streets on 22:09 - Nov 16 by Deano19766 |
"The extreme view of the Islamic faith". So where are the leaders of other faiths harnessing the extreme views of their followers and waging war across the globe? They're not. And that's my point. It's only affecting one religion. Why is that? I have not seen anybody explain it. All I have heard is people say Islam is a religion of peace. Yet they offer no explanation for the current situation. |
Because theres two main religions ,Christians and Muslims. The christian leaders have backed plenty of wars.
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| Guns on the Streets on 22:48 - Nov 16 with 1290 views | robith |
| Guns on the Streets on 21:45 - Nov 16 by Deano19766 |
Yes when it happens the odd time. But if a QPR fan stabbed a supporter of another team every week, or QPR fans (plural) stabbed supporters (plural) of other clubs every week, what would be the case then? Still not QPR? I doubt many other people not associated with QPR would see it that way in that scenario, and would demand the club be shut (and rightly so). Why should religion be an exception?
And I would love a genuine explanation as to why all these nutters are attached to Islam, so I can understand why it is not Islams fault as so many claim. The only conclusion I can draw at the moment, based upon the evidence, is that it is Islams fault. For the avoidance of doubt, if it were Christians, Jews or any other nonsense faith I would reach the same conclusion. [Post edited 16 Nov 2015 21:58]
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Are all Catholics paedos then? The combined members of Al shabab, Al Qaeda, Boko Haram and Daesh make up 0.0003% of the global Muslim population. So yeah, I'd say tarring near 2 billion people with the same brush is a tad foolish.
I've a couple of Muslim friends and they despise the events that happened, but they also know they'll be guilty by association as the accepted narrative is that all Muslim's love terrorism. A narrative that allows vulnerable minds to be manipulated towards such ends sadly through social isolation
In fact perception is a massive issue
Also in an ironic twist I was reading that original daesh members are complaining that the recent arrivals are taking the best houses and jobs. Even in the jihadist terror world, immigration are causing problems |  | | |
| Guns on the Streets on 22:52 - Nov 16 with 1282 views | Deano19766 |
| Guns on the Streets on 22:48 - Nov 16 by robith |
Are all Catholics paedos then? The combined members of Al shabab, Al Qaeda, Boko Haram and Daesh make up 0.0003% of the global Muslim population. So yeah, I'd say tarring near 2 billion people with the same brush is a tad foolish.
I've a couple of Muslim friends and they despise the events that happened, but they also know they'll be guilty by association as the accepted narrative is that all Muslim's love terrorism. A narrative that allows vulnerable minds to be manipulated towards such ends sadly through social isolation
In fact perception is a massive issue
Also in an ironic twist I was reading that original daesh members are complaining that the recent arrivals are taking the best houses and jobs. Even in the jihadist terror world, immigration are causing problems |
An interesting set of statistics. I shall digest those tomorrow | | | |
| Guns on the Streets on 23:05 - Nov 16 with 1251 views | PunteR |
| Guns on the Streets on 22:32 - Nov 16 by Deano19766 |
QPR has a diverse fanbase. Let's say it was the biggest club in the world and it had an element who murdered people every week (even if that element was a very small minority but due to its worldwide numbers it was still a significant number), would the public at large accept that the club should continue just to keep the rest of us who do no harm happy? Would they heck. We'd be banned from everything and forced to close, and rightly so.
Still doesn't explain why all the nutters are currently attached to Islam as opposed to other religions. I have seen noone anywhere offer a genuine explanation. All I see/hear is people making statements without supporting fact. [Post edited 16 Nov 2015 22:34]
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Because people try and exploit other people for their own ends. Extremists have come from areas of poverty and war zones and have somehow built up a fanbase of idiots in countries like ours that buy into their ideology .
I guess it all goes back to questions people ask like whats the meaning of life?,is there a god? etc. If religious leaders cant answer the questions adequately you'll get nutters that will.
I thought this link was quite informative on another thread.
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/38498 | |
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| Guns on the Streets on 23:06 - Nov 16 with 1249 views | LythamR |
| Guns on the Streets on 21:45 - Nov 16 by Deano19766 |
Yes when it happens the odd time. But if a QPR fan stabbed a supporter of another team every week, or QPR fans (plural) stabbed supporters (plural) of other clubs every week, what would be the case then? Still not QPR? I doubt many other people not associated with QPR would see it that way in that scenario, and would demand the club be shut (and rightly so). Why should religion be an exception?
And I would love a genuine explanation as to why all these nutters are attached to Islam, so I can understand why it is not Islams fault as so many claim. The only conclusion I can draw at the moment, based upon the evidence, is that it is Islams fault. For the avoidance of doubt, if it were Christians, Jews or any other nonsense faith I would reach the same conclusion. [Post edited 16 Nov 2015 21:58]
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Its not islam that these nutters are attracted to, it is a very specific form of Islam Wahhabism, There is plenty of illuminating information out there but the three links below provide good information, although the wiki one is by far the most extensive its also pretty heavy going the other 2 links provide insight and explanation without as much of the technicalities
see
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabism
also
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alastair-crooke/isis-wahhabism-saudi-arabia_b_5717
And
http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2014/11/wahhabism-isis-how-saudi-arabi |  | | |
| Guns on the Streets on 23:33 - Nov 16 with 1217 views | CiderwithRsie |
While I completely agree with the points that Robith, Bazza and Lytham are making, I'm not sure anyone has quite addressed Deano's point.
He hasn't said that all or most Muslims are terrorists, what he's said is that he doesn't detect any other major world religion which has such a problem with a terrorist minority - and a minority at that which doesn't just happen to belong to that religion, but which explicitly justifies its terrorism in terms of that religion (however much that may be baloney and offensive to decent Muslims.)
I do feel that there are elements of Islamic history, specifically to do with jihad, that make it open to exploitation by killers than some other religions. It took Christianity 1,000 years to come up with the idea of a crusade (1st Crusade took place in 1097 years after the birth of Christ) whereas the first Muslim conquests took place in the lifetime of Muhammed.
But we all know about the Wars of Religion in Europe (or bloody well should do.) And the pioneers of suicide bombings weren't Al-Qaida, it was the (mainly Hindu) Tamil Tigers. The response to the Tamil Tigers by the mainly Buddhist Sinhalese was equally barbaric.
So I'd say that the reason why, say, Christianity does not produce terrorism in the world today is that it is largely practised in parts of the world which have moved beyond mass violence as a way of getting things done; and Islam is the dominant religion in certain parts of the world where that isn't so. In other words, I don't think it is Islam that is the problem per se, and certainly isn't Muslims; the problem is with the Middle East. Assad is and Saddam was just as much of a terrorist as IS, and neither of them were motivated by religion; Putin is less virulent example of the same thing; it is just that they are/were in government and had/have secret policemen and soldiers to do the terrorising. | | | |
| Guns on the Streets on 23:36 - Nov 16 with 1215 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Guns on the Streets on 23:33 - Nov 16 by CiderwithRsie |
While I completely agree with the points that Robith, Bazza and Lytham are making, I'm not sure anyone has quite addressed Deano's point.
He hasn't said that all or most Muslims are terrorists, what he's said is that he doesn't detect any other major world religion which has such a problem with a terrorist minority - and a minority at that which doesn't just happen to belong to that religion, but which explicitly justifies its terrorism in terms of that religion (however much that may be baloney and offensive to decent Muslims.)
I do feel that there are elements of Islamic history, specifically to do with jihad, that make it open to exploitation by killers than some other religions. It took Christianity 1,000 years to come up with the idea of a crusade (1st Crusade took place in 1097 years after the birth of Christ) whereas the first Muslim conquests took place in the lifetime of Muhammed.
But we all know about the Wars of Religion in Europe (or bloody well should do.) And the pioneers of suicide bombings weren't Al-Qaida, it was the (mainly Hindu) Tamil Tigers. The response to the Tamil Tigers by the mainly Buddhist Sinhalese was equally barbaric.
So I'd say that the reason why, say, Christianity does not produce terrorism in the world today is that it is largely practised in parts of the world which have moved beyond mass violence as a way of getting things done; and Islam is the dominant religion in certain parts of the world where that isn't so. In other words, I don't think it is Islam that is the problem per se, and certainly isn't Muslims; the problem is with the Middle East. Assad is and Saddam was just as much of a terrorist as IS, and neither of them were motivated by religion; Putin is less virulent example of the same thing; it is just that they are/were in government and had/have secret policemen and soldiers to do the terrorising. |
Yeah, I agreed with Deano on that point and yours. | | | |
| Guns on the Streets on 23:41 - Nov 16 with 1207 views | Hunterhoop |
Well done, Lytham!
Was going to post something (far less good, mind) for Dean. The only two countries, I believe, who follow the Wahhabism form of Islam as the state's religion is Saudi Arabia and Qatar (well done, Blatter!)!
It's an extremely complex issue with a complex history that I am by no means an expert on.
Ironically IS are using arms supplied by the West to the Sunni's in Iran (who many happened to be Wahhabists) when they were fighting Assad, because we didn't like Assad. Now we like IS less, so we're launching air strikes on them and, de facto, supporting Assad. Assad is supported by Russia though, who we don't like, so it's all a bit tricky.
The big issue though is IS's funding. How to they keep themselves armed, supplied and able to grow their network and influence. Well, it's widely know that most of there funding comes from Saudi, predominantly wealthy individuals and groups rather than solely the govt, all of whom are Wahhabists, influenced by clerics who openly support IS's actions and the need to defeat the infidel.
The problem the West have is that we need the Saudi Arabia but the West's economy is based on oil. So whilst we don't like IS we do like some of those who may be financing them. What makes it more complicated is that the Saudi give have gradually embraced some elements of Western culture and are actually hated but some Wahhabists. Therefore, if the Saudi govt was to fall, there is the risk that what replaces it could be worse. And if we try to influence the Saudi govt to help the West and curb violent Wahhabism, they will risk alienating even more Wahhabists as they see the hand of the West extend even more into their world. So, to stay in power, the Saudi govt are unlikely to start doing what the West wants them to do.
Foreign Policy, it's really simple.
That's my ill informed understanding. I'll wait for someone to correct me or tell me off for being far too crude in my explanation! 😉 |  | | |
| Guns on the Streets on 23:51 - Nov 16 with 1181 views | KernowRanger |
If you haven't already seen it, Adam Curtis' documentary Bitter Lake is well worth watching- its really informative about the rise of Wahhabism and the reasons why its been allowed to flourish, as well as a more general history of the last 50 odd years of the Middle East.
http://thoughtmaybe.com/bitter-lake/ |  | | |
| Guns on the Streets on 23:58 - Nov 16 with 1167 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Guns on the Streets on 23:54 - Nov 16 by Northolt_Rs |
Great stats. Shame they don't go back to 2004 so they can't include the 190 innocent people killed in the train bombing in Spain....or the 52 killed and over 700 injured in the 7/7 bombings in London in 2005. Talk about skewing the facts. [Post edited 16 Nov 2015 23:57]
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It does say selected, so it's not hiding anything. It's not as if everyone will forget. Also doesn't include London bombings . [Post edited 17 Nov 2015 0:00]
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| Guns on the Streets on 01:06 - Nov 17 with 1122 views | HollowayRanger |
| Guns on the Streets on 23:58 - Nov 16 by BazzaInTheLoft |
It does say selected, so it's not hiding anything. It's not as if everyone will forget. Also doesn't include London bombings . [Post edited 17 Nov 2015 0:00]
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HOW many have died in the last month we are all shocked by France and before that the Russian plane but what about the others
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-34838695 |  |
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| Guns on the Streets on 06:03 - Nov 17 with 1311 views | FDC |
| Guns on the Streets on 21:57 - Nov 16 by johncharles |
Much more armed police in Paris than in London. |
With similar surveillance to that being called for in this country. |  | | |
| Guns on the Streets on 07:53 - Nov 17 with 1263 views | Northolt_Rs |
| Guns on the Streets on 23:58 - Nov 16 by BazzaInTheLoft |
It does say selected, so it's not hiding anything. It's not as if everyone will forget. Also doesn't include London bombings . [Post edited 17 Nov 2015 0:00]
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Yes selected being the operative word here... These stats are blatantly skewed to show 'there aren't as many Moslems in Europe as people think and they don't really kill that many people' - which is quite clearly bullshyt.
'It's not as if everyone will forget' - those stats have conveniently forgotten or deliberately ignored them though haven't they? [Post edited 17 Nov 2015 8:09]
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